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Bjorn Nilfheim
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:32:00 -
[31]
actually, the armageddon has a 2.5k dronebay.
Admiral of the Forsaken Fleets
Pillar of the Fallen Emperor |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:41:00 -
[32]
 Byotch. My point remains-Hammerheads can be replaced in flight.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:49:00 -
[33]
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Othnark
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:08:00 -
[34]
 Quote:
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
How long are you going to keep repeating yourself before you at least acknoledge what several people are saying?
I am NOT acting like caldari ships are defenseless without ECM, and I dont think anyone has said dont take ecm away because then caldari will be defenseless. My point, and that of many others is that being a sepcialized ECM ship DOES hamper you. And in cases where the opposition has half a brain, hampers you to the point of making it impossible to kill him 1v1.
I dont want an all in one uber ship, i just dont want ecm nerfed past its point of usefullness because of the perceived imbalance of someone who apparently doesnt use ECM enough.
-Othnark
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:18:00 -
[35]
Every gun is too powerful when it's pointed at you.
So find another gun to point back or wear bodyarmour.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:22:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Quote:
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
How long are you going to keep repeating yourself before you at least acknoledge what several people are saying?
I am NOT acting like caldari ships are defenseless without ECM, and I dont think anyone has said dont take ecm away because then caldari will be defenseless. My point, and that of many others is that being a sepcialized ECM ship DOES hamper you. And in cases where the opposition has half a brain, hampers you to the point of making it impossible to kill him 1v1.
I dont want an all in one uber ship, i just dont want ecm nerfed past its point of usefullness because of the perceived imbalance of someone who apparently doesnt use ECM enough.
With ECM taken completely out of the picture, the ships are fairly well balanced between their natural strengths and weaknesses. They have their strengths and can be countered by another race's ships setup to counter that.
Strip an Amarr ship of its natural defenses and it relies on killing quickly to survive. Strip a Minmatar ship of its natural defenses and it relies on killing quickly to survive. Strip a Gallente ship of its natural defenses, when those defenses are up to speed, and it'll rely on killing quickly to surive.
Strip Caldari ships of ECM? You have a huge shield tank that takes feck all to kill. And you can sit there repeating to yourself "It's not imbalanced! I'm meant to ignore the natural defenses of my ship and use ECM as both defense and attack." And you won't convince me. So it's either impasse, with TomB already looking to nerf ECM which says he thinks there's an imbalance. Or you can start flaming me if it'll make you feel better.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:24:00 -
[37]
"You can't kill a battleship with drones only :)"
Zora, i make exception for your sickly configured ships... ;)
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Zorael
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:27:00 -
[38]
Quote:
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
I kinda agree on that, and I think I now see where you're going...
The only way to use ECM effectively against a BS with anything else than a scorpion is to use more than one ship...
Because only the scorp can both immobilize and target jam.
So we can say that yes, in this respect, the scorpion is overpowered as an EW platform compared to other ships, because it's the only ship that can be used effectively in 1vs1 in an EW config.
From this perspective, that also means other ships are utterly useless in an EW config, except as 100% support ship in fleet action (fitting an apoc for EW for 1vs1 is a bit pointless).
So the merit of switching back EW to hi power would be to balance this and make all ship have a good EW capability, while still allowing the caldari ships to have an advantage in countering EW thanks to their med slots.
Am I right?
Personally I think switching EW back to hipower would so deeply alter the current balance that it would require a complete rebalancing of all ships... So I can't say I'm seeing it coming anytime soon :p
As someone said, countering a scorp is very easy, albeit crippling your ship for other purposes.
An apoc or tempest can totally nullify the scorp's EW abilities if used properly. EW is more of a "yes/no" weapon : either you jam, or you don't. If you don't, you lost the fight.
(Btw, roasting an EW-scorpion with an armageddon because you guessed his loadout is extremely fun  )
The problem is that most people are not fitting to counter EW because it penalizes them for other more common tasks (farming, notably), and for fighting other non-EW BSes.
But if you consider that a scorpion pilot has to constantly adapt his loadout to effectively jam different ennemies, it only seems fair for the apoc/whatever pilots to do it also.
Remember that the EW-scorpion can only do one thing : PVP. Mining or NPC farming is out of the question.
If people would fit their ship for PVP rather than for "general use", there would be far more dead scorpions I think...
I personally consider scorps to be far more dangerous as shield tanks than EW platform for 1vs1 combat, so in the end, it's not about the ship, it's about the modules ;)
But that's just my opinion...
Z
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Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
Zorael
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:39:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Zora, i make exception for your sickly configured ships... ;)
Sickly ?
You flatter me sweetie
Z
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Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:41:00 -
[40]
"Sickly ?
You flatter me sweetie "
'Twas the intention dear ^^
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:52:00 -
[41]
Quote:
I personally consider scorps to be far more dangerous as shield tanks than EW platform for 1vs1 combat, so in the end, it's not about the ship, it's about the modules ;)
But that's just my opinion...
Z
But to make a Scorpion an effective shield tank takes a skill investment. Any idiot can get Caldari bship 1 + EW 1 + Propulsion Jamming 1 and call themselves an EW master.
Hmm...looks like an imbalance to me.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Zorael
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:09:00 -
[42]
Quote:
But to make a Scorpion an effective shield tank takes a skill investment. Any idiot can get Caldari bship 1 + EW 1 + Propulsion Jamming 1 and call themselves an EW master.
Hmm...looks like an imbalance to me.
EW is certainly a very powerful weapon considering the small skill investment it requires, but that doesn't make the scorpion overpowered per se (it's only a side effect of the scorpion's more comfy layout for EW pilots).
But let's not stretch it too much... 
Personally, I'd like to see how the EW changes affect the current "noob-in-scorp-EW-master" phenomenon, it should be rather interesting (cap preservation will play a major role, as it should).
After that, I'm not so sure any idiot with 1.5 mil SP will be able to call himself an EW master... specially if he runs out of cap after 30 seconds
Z
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Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:23:00 -
[43]
It's actually better to have as little EW skills trained, anyway.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:03:00 -
[44]
Quote:
It's actually better to have as little EW skills trained, anyway.
You know what I mean. Yes, I just got into my first Scorpion a couple days ago. But having focused on skills related to Minmatar ships, my energy and shield skills are lacking to make an effective shield tank.
It's fun to fly a different ship and is a smaller investment risk than my Tempest. But I'm not gonna run gungho into a fight with it with my current skill sets. Course I could always toss EW gear into the midslots...But I didn't make a Scorpion for EW capability.
That'd be ignoring its real strength, imo.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Znaei
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:06:00 -
[45]
Quote:
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
If they make ECM a high slot every other races will become ew specialists with the Amarr in the lead, leaving caldari out in the cold with only shields and missiles. Missiles/torps wont help them much if everybody else can easily jam them (you cant win with using FoF only). So Caldari has only the option of a no damage dealing, shield tank setup! What are they supposed to do? Bump you to death??
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:18:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
It all comes back to a simple point: People keep acting like Caldari ships will be utterly defenseless and useless without ECM which is utter nonsense. What people really want is to make their opponents utterly defenseless and kill them all with the same ship.
Caldari ships are shield tanks. A ship that can run an opponent out of ammo and patience is far from defenseless in my book. Missiles are no longer worthless, so that doesn't wash anymore either.
If they make ECM a high slot every other races will become ew specialists with the Amarr in the lead, leaving caldari out in the cold with only shields and missiles. Missiles/torps wont help them much if everybody else can easily jam them (you cant win with using FoF only). So Caldari has only the option of a no damage dealing, shield tank setup! What are they supposed to do? Bump you to death??
Last time I checked, every race has a Tier 2 ship with 8 hi slots. ECM modules weren't slot specific when they were high slot module, IIRC.
Let's not pretend that suddenly the Caldari become the redheaded stepchildren of Eve here. When a ship is target jammed Caldari have the best chance of coming out on top. Followed by Minmatar. Because of those worthless FoF Cruise missiles ( ) forcing the person jamming to use cap to repair damage. And their shield tanking ability allowing them to soak any incoming damage longer than any other ship type in the game, including Amarr armor tanks.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:24:00 -
[47]
"If they make ECM a high slot every other races will become ew specialists with the Amarr in the lead, leaving caldari out in the cold with only shields and missiles."
... And all those middle slots for the +3 ECCM modules. You'd need 5 race-specific ECM modules to jam the Scorpion set up for half-ECCM and half-shield boosting... how many is going to sacrifice that many turrets/launchers just to gag the Caldari ship? ;s
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:58:00 -
[48]
It's not gonna happen, you know that?
Moving ECM to hi-slots only would require major re-adjustments of ships and possibly ship bonuses.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 22:07:00 -
[49]
Quote:
It's not gonna happen, you know that?
Moving ECM to hi-slots only would require major re-adjustments of ships and possibly ship bonuses.
Mostly just a rebalancing of the modules themselves I think. But which would you prefer: that or never being able to jam someone as the modules each have a chance of not successfully jamming a target based on range?
That's the current idea, remember? While I'd prolly find the swearing on TS thoroughly hilarious, I'd not look forward to "1 out of fecking 4 failed?!?" everyday.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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