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Zarthan
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:12:00 -
[1]
nope it's not. For those of you crying to have ECM nerfd i have two words for you (blank) Backup. If you have a caldari ship use grav backup, amarr get yourself some radar backup. They take 1 of your low slots and boost your points by 2. To give an example look below and you'll see why the Scorpion and ECM have no advantage if your not a dummy.
Apocalypes- Has 7! low slots and 14 radar points.
Scorpion- Will say he's using 4 multi ecm's this means he has a jamming strength of 16.
Apcalypse- Fits 2 radar backups has 18 radar points and now may proceed to own the scorpion.
It's all rather simple and caldari ships while they are awesome at ecm are not so good to counter it. Amarr, gallantee, and minmitar have plenty of low slots to fit even 4 backup arrays if you so choose. Use your counter measures people or get over it  .
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DarK
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:17:00 -
[2]
Sensor Dampers.
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IZON
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:34:00 -
[3]
Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see ECM ships carry the weight in this field. ECM pilot in an ECM ship should rightly make a formidable adversary, but put an ECM pilot in a BS and those advantages shouldn't IMHO carry over to the BS. It all adds to more ship diversity in combat not just 'biggus ****us'
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
IZON
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: IZON on 22/11/2003 15:34:45
++double post++
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:44:00 -
[5]
It's not a factor of ECM being overpowered to me. Not in the manner that most people think at least.
My beef with ECM is the amount of firepower left availible to the user. To completely nullify another vessel and pound the crap out of it is a bit much. For your Scorpion example, there are the 4 Siege Launchers loaded with torps and 2 turrets which allows the Scorpion to not only castrate a target for itself and others. But kill it as well.
It's just my opinion that a ship specialized for ECM should sacrifice a significant portion of its attack potential. And that goes for all ships, not just the Scorpion.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 15:57:00 -
[6]
Jash,
It's really really hard to kill anyone 1 vs 1 with a Scorpion.
Trust me.
You simply can't lock, target-jam, webify, and warp-jam someone effectively enough that you can kill them.
D'you know why?
MWD.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:00:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Jash,
It's really really hard to kill anyone 1 vs 1 with a Scorpion.
Trust me.
You simply can't lock, target-jam, webify, and warp-jam someone effectively enough that you can kill them.
D'you know why?
MWD.
MWD, invuln timers, turning on the scramblers/webifiers almost guarantees they get off a salvo...tons of possible answers, all applicable and prolly none the one you're looking for.
Still doesn't change the feeling that a ship setup for ECM should not have that amount of firepower at it's disposal.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:03:00 -
[8]
Jash,
We need to do a comparison of single volley damage from all battleships to find out just how overpowered the Scorpion is.
We need soltys back!
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:07:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Jash,
We need to do a comparison of single volley damage from all battleships to find out just how overpowered the Scorpion is.
We need soltys back!
To me it's still a balance of roles issue.
A ship configured to be a gunship will sacrifice in other areas fill the gunship role.
A ship configured to be a close combat vessel will sacrifice in other areas to fill the close combat vessel role.
A ship configured to be an ECM vessel should have to sacrifice in other areas to fill the ECM role.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Othnark
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:15:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Othnark on 22/11/2003 16:16:32
Quote:
Still doesn't change the feeling that a ship setup for ECM should not have that amount of firepower at it's disposal.
Edit:
Quote:
A ship configured to be an ECM vessel should have to sacrifice in other areas to fill the ECM role.
I guess my point of view is that the ship is severly limited. Its giving up a huge portion of defense capabilities (shield boosters / hardeners etc) for all this ecm.
Further youve substantially limited the offensive options to guns/missiles that dont use cap.
-Othnark
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:18:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 22/11/2003 16:19:57
Quote:
Quote:
Still doesn't change the feeling that a ship setup for ECM should not have that amount of firepower at it's disposal.
I guess my point of view is that the ship is severly limited. Its giving up a huge portion of defense capabilities (shield boosters / hardeners etc) for all this ecm.
Further youve substantially limited the offensive options to guns/missiles that dont use cap.
ECM is its own defense. Especially with the Poor Thinking Man's ECM, Sensor Dampeners, added to the mix.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:24:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 22/11/2003 16:25:55
We already have less armour, feel the effects of MWD-penalties more keenly, less capacitor, less turrets, less powergrid, poor bonuses, and everyone targets us first.
What else do you wish to nerf? 
Fly around in your Scorpion, Jash, and just TRY killing someone 1 vs 1.
Let's look at our beautiful med slots.
Med-slot 1-3: 3 ship-specific ECM
Can jam any non-ECCM equipped ship.
Med-slot 4: Sensor Booster
Our base targetting time is strangely much longer than all other races so we still target slower than most other pilots even if we're using an uber F-90 Positional and the other ship is using an Alumel.
Med-slot 5: 1 20km warp-jammer
Horrific range, really.
Med-slot 6-7: 2 Fleeting Propulsion Webifiers (-84%)
Take forever to engage their full effect and that's usually too slow.
Med-slot 8: MWD.
Kills our shield advantage.
Bog-standard setup for your average Scorpion pilot, k?
Let's say the enemy chooses to stay and engage you. You lock him in around 2-3 seconds and target-jam, warp-jam, and (if you're lucky) you webify him.
Yay!
You then set off your Hybrid Blasters/Mega Beam Lasers/1200mm Artilleries and fire off your 3 siege launchers of cruises (12 sec ROF) and perhaps your Arbalest full of torps (9.20 ROF).
By this time your enemy realises he is up **** Creek and has temporarily displaced his paddle.
He's already MWD'ing away from you towards an interstellar object.
Sure, your guns are hitting (but not that well or hard since they're only 2 guns) but your missiles are doing more damage!
Yay!
Then you realise they're actually giving him around 600m/s speed boost - pushing him easily beyond webifying range and, ultimately, well beyond warp-jam range.
He'll probably get smacked about by a few missiles, keeping him from warping, but you'll find he quickly outpaces your missiles and warps away.
That's the story of a solo Scorpion pilot.
Our ability to lock-jam is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness.
Soon as you target-jam someone they're instantly looking for a way out and they'll get it. 99% of the time.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Othnark
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:28:00 -
[13]
Quote:
ECM is its own defense. Especially with the Poor Thinking Man's ECM, Sensor Dampeners, added to the mix.
I think that's a cop out. Guns are also their own defense. The fact of the matter is someone with ECM gear is severely limited in the amount of cap-using defensive modules he can use. Drones and FoF missiles will make any ECM guy's day extremely bad very fast because of this.
And although he does not really need those defensive modules in a 1 on 1 fight, he probably does need them in a bigger battle.
-Othnark
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 16:49:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 22/11/2003 16:25:55
...
That's the story of a solo Scorpion pilot.
...
Since when is balancing for the solo player a priority in MMOG? That's where the problems keep coming in with this game: people trying to do everything by themselves and the half catering to that mentality.
Make ECM modules high slot, increase the power so it's not a 1 ship/1 jam contest and make ECM a fleet role as it should be. The ability to completely neuter a target vessel is an extremely powerful advantage. It should require help to capitalize on that advantage. The current problem is that the additional manpower causes what I perceive as the imbalance.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:04:00 -
[15]
Quote:
It should require help to capitalize on that advantage.
It does.
That's what I'm saying. Scorpions are only useful as support and, to be honest, they are never around battles long enough to do serious damage. Every single large-scale engagement has resulted in my Scorpion being armoured by at least 4 ships.
Quote:
Make ECM modules high slot
Which means we'd have 8 medium slots free to make ouselves a shield tank or have insane cap recharge.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:08:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Quote:
Make ECM modules high slot
Which means we'd have 8 medium slots free to make ouselves a shield tank or have insane cap recharge.
And you have a problem with that?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Othnark
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:10:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Since when is balancing for the solo player a priority in MMOG? That's where the problems keep coming in with this game: people trying to do everything by themselves and the half catering to that mentality.
Make ECM modules high slot, increase the power so it's not a 1 ship/1 jam contest and make ECM a fleet role as it should be. The ability to completely neuter a target vessel is an extremely powerful advantage. It should require help to capitalize on that advantage. The current problem is that the additional manpower causes what I perceive as the imbalance.
I dont think anyone is asking for balance for the solo player. I think Joshua is just pointing out that it isnt as easy as people think to use the Scorp solo and kill everything it encounters.
ECM is a fleet role. Yes it is possible to take on ships with an ECM setup but there are numberous limitations. 1 ECM ship is usually hard pressed to keep the ship locked down, and keep it from running away. Having a fleet or even a few wingmen is a huge benefit. I do not think you need to make ECM a high slot in order to promote the teamwork or stop what you call 1v1 jam contests.
I dont know what you mean about additional manpower causing a perceived imbalance. Could you elaborate?
-Othnark
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:12:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Quote:
It should require help to capitalize on that advantage.
It does.
That's what I'm saying. Scorpions are only useful as support and, to be honest, they are never around battles long enough to do serious damage. Every single large-scale engagement has resulted in my Scorpion being armoured by at least 4 ships.
Quote:
Make ECM modules high slot
Which means we'd have 8 medium slots free to make ouselves a shield tank or have insane cap recharge.
Just what a ECM ship should be imo, virtually no offensive ability, but great at jamming/defense
Mercenary | The Azath |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:17:00 -
[19]
If that were to happen the arrangement of Caldari ships mean it would no longer be EW-based.
Amarr ships would rule the day for ECM.
What would Caldari get instead? Shiny cup-holders?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:22:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I dont know what you mean about additional manpower causing a perceived imbalance. Could you elaborate?
Toss in something as defenseless as a Vigil or even a Mammoth to offset some of abilities that are taking up the midslots on the Scorpion. If they get shot, you might barely break 1m in losses.
It doesn't matter who warp scrambles/webifies a target, just that the target isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Joshua has an issue with the lock timer on the Scorpion allowing the prey to run. Why use the Scorpion's longer lock timer when there are ships that can do the same job, faster?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:28:00 -
[21]
Quote:
If that were to happen the arrangement of Caldari ships mean it would no longer be EW-based.
Amarr ships would rule the day for ECM.
What would Caldari get instead? Shiny cup-holders?
You're operating under the assumption that Caldari are supposed to be the Masters of ECM. I don't operate under that assumption.
Caldari are Shield Tanks/Missile Users.
Minmatar are Jack of All Trades/Projectile Users.
Amarr are Armor Tanks/Laser Users.
Gallente are a pooched atm but they'll get fixed eventually. Their defensive strength will be distance and their offensive strength will be Drones + Hybrids.
And anyone with 8 high slots could be an ECM ship if ECM modules were returned to the high slot configuration. Question is who'd want to completely surrender their Gunship or Missile Boat like that?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Skillz
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:31:00 -
[22]
Scorps can eat two lauchers of FoF cruise missiles. After awhile, they can eat the tachyon lasers when it's cap goes down.
Finally it can eat the pulsebomb that is close enough to get the pod, after it has been used to pfffft the scorp's missiles.
A Scorpion is a support ship and a missile boat, treat it as such.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Zarthan
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:54:00 -
[23]
ECM doesnt need to be in high slots and your a retard if you say the scorpion has a firepower advantage. Scorpion has the leasts hi slots out of pretty much EVERY single battleship. If you cant' manage to lock down your opponent 1v1 your dead. In fleet battles it's a support ecm ship and a missel ship.
Basically the point is the ships is fine and people whinning about it are sad. There is no unfair balance issue.
Also for the guy saying gallantee suck omg your not very smart. They have massive dmg ability with hybrids which are getting a boost in dmg btw. on top of which this makes them otustanding drone users. The megathron has the most drone space of any tier 2 bs. and the dominix has just insane drone space. Maybe you need to learn how to setup a ship  .
_______________________________________________________
Get custom sigs and graphics done here
Unforgivn Website
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Comander TAT
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:55:00 -
[24]
Yes it is an absolute nightmare trying to balance cap and firepower on a scorp . It is verry hard to solo kill a bs in a scorp and i know lol !!
Comander TAT
Tyrell Corporation
Director Military Operations
*** Proud Member of the Stain Aliance *** |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.22 17:56:00 -
[25]
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/11/2003 17:58:58
"If that were to happen the arrangement of Caldari ships mean it would no longer be EW-based."
... Well, those middle slots would be then nice for the ECCM like the Caldari are supposed to be, according to the recent dev notes ;)
"Amarr ships would rule the day for ECM."
Not the Gallente? (which would become quite unbalanced btw... jam the enemy with the high slots, hold in place with middle slots, keep the cap for all this with the low slots, tear them apart with the drones.... hmm. do FoF missiles attack drones?)
"What would Caldari get instead? Shiny cup-holders? "
We would still have the best looking ships with so much shield and missiles, half of the population would fall asleep trying to get through them... ;s
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Zorael
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:10:00 -
[26]
Having tested scorpions, ravens, armas and apocs in 1vs1 situations (or in small group encounters), I know one thing : you don't kill people more often with a scorp.
Sure, you may be able to completely nullify another ship firepower (assuming he doesn't uses drones or FoF missiles), but actually killing him is another story.
You can manage to kill noobs fairly easily, but you will have a hard time downing an experienced player, who will usually have 2x the cap recharge rate and 2x your shield resistance - and normally 1.5x to 2x your shield capacity, because if you don't use an MWD on a scorp, your opponent will just point his ship in the opposite direction of the missile stream... You know how that ends :)
As Joshua said, the first thing people want to do when ECMed/damped is run away, which forces you to use a lot of specialized modules to pin them in place, which in turn reduce your defence to almost nada, making you very vulnerable to indirect weapons (smartbombs, drones, FoF missiles).
Not talking about wingmen, of course, which brings me to another aspect of PVP, fleet battles.
On my most efficient fleet action scorp, I use absolutely no defenses, even not a shield booster. It means I have to constantly rely on my wingmen to kill my agressor before I die.
Usually, it works out this way :
- We can jam ALL the opposing ships, which mean we can concentrate fire on one of them, allowing the others a guaranteed escape (but usually achieving a very good level of safety for ourselves).
- We jam all the opposing ships except a few numbers, and this minority will use its overwhelming firepower to crush our weak defenses with ease.
I don't think the scorp is unbalanced as an EW platform, I think, however, that it's clearly unbalanced as a tank - there is no way to kill a tanked scorpion 1vs1 if the pilot knows what's he's doing.
Z
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Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
Zorael
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:11:00 -
[27]
Quote:
...tear them apart with the drones...
You can't kill a battleship with drones only :)
Z
- - -
Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 22/11/2003 18:22:58
*cough*
10 Hammerheads=100 damage/2sec.
6 (assume 1.5k is the average dronebay) Ogres=108 damage/2sec.
(Not including shield/armour resistances for obvious reasons)
Say whatever you will. Drones shouldn't be underestimated.
(As for smartbombs...many people don't use them and, drones open fire from 20km range, sometimes more. You can just tell them to attack, recall them at 10km, attack at 20km...)
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:23:00 -
[29]
*cough* Noob
Hammerheads on a BS ..... take some time out and train Heavy Drones ....
They need to sort out the Sensor Dampners ... everything else is fine ..
Mongo speaks !!
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Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:25:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 22/11/2003 18:50:13
Hammerheads weigh 150m3 less than an Ogre. Weight for damage they're more efficient. Considering you only lose 8 damage overall, plus you can replace up to 5 lost drones, Hammerheads are a lot more damn useful than you make out.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
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