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Shaddam Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
65
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:28:29 -
[1] - Quote
Let's face it, Wardeccing is broken.
Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away. Why? because it is abused, terribly.
Rich Corps will wardec a new corp into oblivion for no reason other than they can. This is causing CCP to hemorrhage subscriptions.
Therefore I suggest the following minor change:
A Corporation may warddec if and only if one of it's members has a live Killright on a member of the other Corp in question.
if wardecs are tied to killrights then an act of overt agression HAS to proceed a wardec.
This is both in keeping with the feel of EvE Onlines universe s and prevents intentional harassment of smaller Corporations.
I welcome additional thoughts and input. |
Valeria Aelahl
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
10
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:35:59 -
[2] - Quote
I welcome this, something needs to give. Ive been on both sides of the coin and its obvious to anyone involved, that the mechanic is a little broken. |
Plivia Epollinus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:40:29 -
[3] - Quote
Newer corps and players get punished by the current mechanic. This is a good idea. I hope CCP considers this or something that alleviates this problem. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2345
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:42:16 -
[4] - Quote
War decs are not the thing causing EVE to hemorhage subscriptions. Limiting it to only being able to declare when you have an active killright completely nullifies the purpose of the war dec system and is not really an option.
If I were to do anything with war decs it'd be to limit the amount that you can have at any one time, or to make a renew limit/cooldown so that they can't be maintained indefinitiely (unless it's a mutual war).
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
610
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:48:04 -
[5] - Quote
Changes to war decs is a good idea.
Tying it to kill rights not as good. How about tying it to a kill mail.
People can destroy your property ( mobile depots, deployable assets ) earn a kill mail and fly away scot free. The depot owner gets no kill right and under your new rule could not war dec. If you are going to make a change any action that grants a kill mail should come at the risk of allowing a war dec.
"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts,
we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part,
revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
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Tony-Vagabond Carter
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:48:31 -
[6] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Limiting it to only being able to declare when you have an active killright completely nullifies the purpose of the war dec system and is not really an option.
I respectfully disagree. Wardecs allow hostilities in highsec without CONCORD intervention, that is their primary function. Connecting them to Killrights would mean there must be a 'first shot'.. perfectly reasonable IMHO,
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Tony-Vagabond Carter
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.08.29 18:53:20 -
[7] - Quote
Slaver Filth wrote:Changes to war decs is a good idea.
Tying it to kill rights not as good. How about tying it to a kill mail.
People can destroy your property ( mobile depots, deployable assets ) earn a kill mail and fly away scot free. The depot owner gets no kill right and under your new rule could not war dec. If you are going to make a change any action that grants a kill mail should come at the risk of allowing a war dec.
The only problem here I see is a logistical one, Killrights are percharacter, whereas killmails are just 'loose' records.. |
Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
610
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:06:23 -
[8] - Quote
Question.
Currently if I want to expel another corp from a system in high sec space without Concord intervention I can war dec them. If they can not successfully defend they would leave the area I wish to control. Then I can put up POCOs. Would your changes disallow this from happening and leave me at the mercy of their high rates for my PI activities?
Corps can surrender when someone declares war and stop the loss of assets under the current rules, that being the case I do not see the connection between war decs and subscriptions being dropped. The war dec corp does not get a refund of the fee paid to file the war dec after the surrender even if they have prepaid for longer than one week.
"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts,
we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part,
revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2345
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:09:16 -
[9] - Quote
Tony-Vagabond Carter wrote:I respectfully disagree. Wardecs allow hostilities in highsec without CONCORD intervention, that is their primary function. Connecting them to Killrights would mean there must be a 'first shot'.. perfectly reasonable IMHO,
Tying it to killrights makes war decs only defensive. There is a place in the game for offensive war decs and we shouldn't be trying to prevent that.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
464
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:10:54 -
[10] - Quote
Horrible idea. wardecs are being used, just because you dont like how isnt a game problem its YOUR problem.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Trenmir Bedala
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
38
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:29:57 -
[11] - Quote
I like this Idea.
To those who say that it eliminated "offensive Wars" I call shenanigans.
You want to start a war offensively? have the chromosomal fortitude to fire the first shots and yes, risk being Concorded for it! You want to get rid of another Corps POCO's and POS in Highsec.. do the same thing!
Going to make this my new signature ...
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I have nothing useful to say, so instead I'll insult the OP.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
126
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:43:16 -
[12] - Quote
Shaddam Daphiti wrote:Let's face it, Wardeccing is broken.
Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away. Why? because it is abused, terribly.
Rich Corps will wardec a new corp into oblivion for no reason other than they can. This is causing CCP to hemorrhage subscriptions.
Therefore I suggest the following minor change:
A Corporation may warddec if and only if one of it's members has a live Killright on a member of the other Corp in question.
if wardecs are tied to killrights then an act of overt agression HAS to proceed a wardec.
This is both in keeping with the feel of EvE Onlines universe s and prevents intentional harassment of smaller Corporations.
I welcome additional thoughts and input.
So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.
How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.
Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it. |
Tony-Vagabond Carter
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.08.29 19:51:18 -
[13] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.
How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.
Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it.
This may be the most valid point so far, save that NPC corps never could wardec, or be wardecced. That fact makes that moot, as for Merc corps.. well
If you carry a flag (and your corp tag is essentially a flag) be prepared to be treated as if you represent that flag.
I do see the point about Sold Killrights, perhaps the wardeccing rights should be limited to Original killright earners... |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2346
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Posted - 2015.08.29 20:12:27 -
[14] - Quote
Trenmir Bedala wrote:You want to start a war offensively? have the chromosomal fortitude to fire the first shots and yes, risk being Concorded for it! You want to get rid of another Corps POCO's and POS in Highsec.. do the same thing!
Or you can just declare a war, as you do now. If the player does not like getting war decced, then they can stay in an NPC corp, or not put up poco's and POSes, or live somewhere away from where major war dec corps operate.
High sec is not supposed to be 100% safe. Offensive war decs are part of EVE.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
126
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Posted - 2015.08.29 20:18:31 -
[15] - Quote
Tony-Vagabond Carter wrote:Avvy wrote:
So a player in an NPC corp has a kill right and can't wardec, that doesn't work.
How would mercenary corps operate? After all they work for someone else.
Maybe for mercenary corps, just sell them the kill rights. Ok that sorts out the kill rights for mercenaries but what's to stop other corps from buying or obtaining kill rights to sell in the same manner. All you will do is make players work around it.
This may be the most valid point so far, save that NPC corps never could wardec, or be wardecced. That fact makes that moot, as for Merc corps.. well If you carry a flag (and your corp tag is essentially a flag) be prepared to be treated as if you represent that flag. I do see the point about Sold Killrights, perhaps the wardeccing rights should be limited to Original killright earners...
Yeah, I wasn't being serious about the NPC corps, I should really have left that bit out. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14342
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Posted - 2015.08.29 21:31:24 -
[16] - Quote
Shaddam Daphiti wrote: Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away.
That is a lie.
Furthermore, with such a heavy handed nerf, why don't you just ask for the mechanic to be deleted? Because that's functionally what it would do.
If you do not want to deal with wars, you belong in a NPC corp, you do not deserve a player corp.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Arthur Aihaken
Chig
4603
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Posted - 2015.08.29 21:52:56 -
[17] - Quote
Yes, we're all genuinely shocked that CODE might object to any changes to high-sec WarDecs...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14344
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Posted - 2015.08.29 22:18:58 -
[18] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Yes, we're all genuinely shocked that CODE might object to any changes to high-sec WarDecs...
I do that personally, and I have since long before I joined CODE, thanks.
Wardecs already are hugely in favor of the defender based on the mechanics. Dec dodging, being almost free in terms of isk and completely free of consequence, means that absolutely no one is "forced" to be in a war. They are 100% consensual. Meanwhile the defender has access to the ally mechanic, allowing them to dogpile an attacker for literally free.
The mechanics favor the defender hugely.
Wars do not need to be nerfed any further, especially since CCP has themselves shown us that highsec conflict is a large positive factor in player retention. If anything, they need buffed, and conflict should be proliferated across highsec.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Madd Adda
113
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Posted - 2015.08.30 01:21:46 -
[19] - Quote
the issue is that this would pretty much immunizes corps that don't attack other players, like single/multiboxer corps.
How about giving all corporations a status rating? This rating wouldn't be like sec status/faction standing where you'll be shot at by NPCs, but a status related purely to the war dec mechanic.
Members of a player corp who commit criminal activity regularly cause the over all status of the corp to decline, and in turn, reduces the cost to war dec them -50% (at lowest rating). So after doing the calculations for 2000 member alliance with the worst rating possible, it would cost 250mil to dec them rather than the normal 500mil
On the other hand, corps that help counter pirates and criminals have a higher status. This increases the amount of isk needed to dec those corps by a max of +25% at the highest rating. So for a 2000 member alliance it would cost 625 mil compared to the normal 500mil
I'm on the fence about ratting/missioning/incursions affecting the status just because the risk of abuse.
Carebear extraordinaire
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1660
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Posted - 2015.08.30 04:26:56 -
[20] - Quote
If you do not like war declarations, stay in an NPC corporation. Or move to another part of space. I never worry about war declarations out in Fountain, Delve, or Vale of the Silent.
If you really want to care bear in relative peace and have a mostly boring and unexciting game, there is always a place like Tenal...
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1505
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Posted - 2015.08.30 06:58:14 -
[21] - Quote
Here's the thing: wardecs are not going away. Non-consensual PvP is a hallmark of this game and a needed for many game design and game balance reasons, most notably removing structures in highsec. It has been made clear that new structures are going to maintain CONCORD protection, thus wardecs are the only mechanism to remove them. They will therefore never be made impossible to make or tied to some mechanic to give carebears corps 100% safety from them by standings, or not shooting or whatever nonsense you are proposing.
Eve is about conflict and if you want the benefits of a player corporation, including their structures, you have to accept the risk that someone will object and try to stop you. If you think wars are unbalanced, you should propose ideas to either level the playing field (but not just nerf them even more so there is no conflict) through tweaking the mechanics, or some variant of the social corporation by which players can form a social group that is immune from wardecs, but does not have the benefits of them like deploying structures to respect risk vs. reward.
Asking for all the current benefits and 100% safety from attack is not going to happen - can't happen - if CCP hopes to maintain a viable sandbox game. |
Weatherlights
Com Guards District-85
0
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Posted - 2015.08.30 09:29:42 -
[22] - Quote
How about: The Corp that gets decced receives part of the money payed for the wardec :P. |
Altholonas Kynslayer
Intergalactic Combined Technologies Dragoon's
1
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Posted - 2015.08.30 18:08:42 -
[23] - Quote
Right now over on Reddit there are two great discussion threads on wardecs and wardec mechanics... go check it out!
War Deccing: the non-combatant
CCP, The Current Wardeccing system is literally causing newbros to quit!!
lots of interesting feedback and ideas in these two threads. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
1131
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Posted - 2015.08.30 18:53:06 -
[24] - Quote
The newbro-wardec "problem" is more an NPE issue than a wardec issue. It's not difficult for a new player to fly safe in a war or even avoid the consequences of a war altogether. Blame also goes to ****** CEOs for being ******. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14353
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Posted - 2015.08.30 20:08:35 -
[25] - Quote
Altholonas Kynslayer wrote:
Both of those threads are terrible, and basically ask for the deletion of wars completely.
Which is pretty much exactly what we all said people would do after the awox deletion, they would not be satisfied with the complete removal of 1/3 of the risk in highsec, nope, they want the whole thing gone.
"just one more nerf".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11515
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Posted - 2015.08.30 20:11:37 -
[26] - Quote
Wars are trivial to avoid, this is wholly and entirely unessisary.
Yes war decs need changes but completely defanging them isn't one.
No you can't just set up a ****show Corp ,grow fat and expect the predators to leave you alone.
If you defang wars we will turn to other means and then ye will have something to complain about.
Right now we have CODE. Imagine if marmite , ourselves and the other mercenaries started ganking...
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14353
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Posted - 2015.08.30 20:13:46 -
[27] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: If you defang wars we will turn to other means and then ye will have something to complain about.
Right now we have CODE. Imagine if marmite , ourselves and the other mercenaries started ganking...
And then they'd complain that ganking happens too much for no reason, and it needs deleted too.
They'll never stop until they have Trammel, it's what they have wanted all along.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24934
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Posted - 2015.08.30 23:31:34 -
[28] - Quote
Shaddam Daphiti wrote:Instead of being a mechanic that encourages players to interact it drives new players away.
That's an oft repeated falsehood.
One of the fastest growing newbie corps in Eve has been wardecced by various mercs for the last month or so, most of the wardecs have since dropped, some of the mercs behind the dropped decs have been providing support in the form of experienced FCs, SRP donations and combat ops; the members of that corp are having a whale of a time making the mercs behind the longest standing wardec look rather silly.
Watching trade hub station huggers whining about their T3 and BS fleets being blobbed by newbies and former carebears in T1 fleets with experienced leadership is rather amusing.
Wardecs are trivial to avoid, dropping to an NPC corp being the least of the ways to do so.
Wardecs may drive some people away, but as CCP themselves acknowledge, Eve is not for everyone.
Quote:Rich Corps will wardec a new corp into oblivion for no reason other than they can. This is causing CCP to hemorrhage subscriptions. Citation needed, especially in view of the fact that changes to the EULA and the introduction of plex for services has changed the way that people use alt accounts leading to an apparent fall in logged in players.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1224
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Posted - 2015.08.30 23:42:48 -
[29] - Quote
The only thing wardecs really need is some sort of consequence to the attacking party aside from money. Right now any corp with a fat enough wallet can wardec half the universe. At the very least having multiple outgoing wardecs at a time should increase the cost of every subsequent wardec. So you want to wardec more than 10 corps at a time, that's fine. But that 10th one is going to cost you 10 times the money.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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Tony-Vagabond Carter
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.08.30 23:54:15 -
[30] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:The only thing wardecs really need is some sort of consequence to the attacking party aside from money. Right now any corp with a fat enough wallet can wardec half the universe. At the very least having multiple outgoing wardecs at a time should increase the cost of every subsequent wardec. So you want to wardec more than 10 corps at a time, that's fine. But that 10th one is going to cost you 10 times the money.
Now this, is constructive... certainly a lot more so than the majority of posts have been, it's no wonder OP hasn't replied. I'm impressed how a suggestion for a mechanic change becomes a rally for Wardec rights instead of a discussion of the proposed change.
From what I read in the original post the issue is exactly what is spelt out here. and where tying Decs to kilrights may not work something like increasing cost based on current number of active wars might.
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