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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
843
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Posted - 2015.09.04 06:54:46 -
[1] - Quote
I have never understood the mindset of players who immediately come back with "x is not needed, you can already so something similar if you shoehorn Y"
New Eden has a problem. There is a class of criminal that cannot be contained. They like to blow up freighters. Industries everywhere would start working on solutions. One of those would certainly be faster ships that could avoid these criminals.
Also... Anyone who can't see that there is room in the hauling line up between industrials and freighters is working an angle. Fuel isn't the only efficiency station to be considered. Like all else in EVE but an ship under an active cloak, these things will be shot down for the where hell of it. A range of options from the pocket change of an industrial to the 1+ billion of freighters should certainly exist in this sort of environment. I mean come on, the base stats jump from around 4k to 400k m3 between the two classes. At the very least a base t1 line in the 40k area seems reasonable, and probably one that splits the difference at a base of around 200k as well.
To save brain sweat it could be introduced as an Interbus series of faction ships, with a few hulls based on role: speed, capacity, security. Similar to the ORE ships we could have the base models as the 40k variety, and t2 as the 200k variety.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
843
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Posted - 2015.09.04 09:20:17 -
[2] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:]I realized i should not have used the max fit capacity in my discussion. The 400,000 would be the modded and rigged max capacity of the Caldari variant. Regardless, it's too large. As has already been stated the current freighters aren't significantly bigger (Fenrir <10% larger) so the capacity you're discussing is seems to obsolete them. 250,000m3 fully expanded is about the limit I could consider...
Why would having the top end of the smaller freighters being close to the unenhanced base of the larger freighter be so out of line? It's not making the larger one obsolete except in edge cases where the larger one would be fit for maximum survivability and still be underloaded. That circumstance is part of the reason the baby freighter is desired in the first place.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
845
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:13:15 -
[3] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:New Eden has a problem. There is a class of criminal that cannot be contained. They like to blow up freighters. Industries everywhere would start working on solutions. One of those would certainly be faster ships that could avoid these criminals. First of all, that's an opporunity, not a problem. Secondly, when was the last time you had as many people in your freighter fleet as the gankers had in theirs and still wound up with a freighter lossmail? Hell, you only need two people to move a freighter and you're 99.9% immune to gankers, just so long as the second guy is flying a rapier with dual webs. Make the third guy an interceptor pilot and you've got redundancy in the event of you being the 0.1%.
Well... Um... Yar, and stuff. It's not all about you brother. I wasn't really talking about ganks as much as I was that with the situation being what it is, someone would build a more appropriate platform for shipping that didn't either cost a billion ISK, or else held more than a thimble. We have pickups, we have cargo ships... we kinda need some semi-tractor trailers, maybe some 5th wheel heavy duty trucks, and who knows but some mid range box trucks as well.
This is not a new idea, there were numerous threads on this on the original forums. People have been begging for this for years. The T2 industrials do not really fill the need, and the Orca is a fine ship but it's not really in the line nor filling the need either.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
848
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Posted - 2015.09.06 07:29:08 -
[4] - Quote
There is no such thing as too many options, especially in a case like this where the logical progression goes from T1 industrial to freighter.
T2 ships are supposed to be specialized, and the Blockade Runners and Deep Space Transports are indeed specialized, but also kind of sit in a niche where there should be a bigger hauling option at a lower price point.
A better range of hauling options is definitely a niche that begs to be filled in the game.
Following the ORE line of Yeild, Capacity, Defense an Interbus line of haulers could go with traits like Raw Speed (Courier), Capacity (Bulk Transport), and Defense (Armored Transport).
I would suggest the line be Armor Tanked and capacity around 10x that of industrial ships (30k-40k m3 BASE total). T2 variants emphasizing their roles with couriers getting either extreme speed, nullification, or jump capability + microjump drive activation time bonus. Bulk Transport would fill the baby freighter role with more capacity (150-250 m3 Base Total), and armored transports getting a resist and raw up bonus (space megabrick)
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
849
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Posted - 2015.09.06 11:14:53 -
[5] - Quote
Well, for one it requires the escort to do. For another it's a pretty big price tag for loads that small and smaller.
Why should there not be a range of transport options?
Consider that the baby freighter will be easier to pop than a full size one, and be easier to gank for those smaller loads. Options are always good. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
851
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Posted - 2015.09.06 16:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
If baby freighters were a thing teams of gankers could still gank them. In fact, they would be gankable with less than what a freighter takes, making the smaller loads still worth attacking.
The point is that not every load is worth the risk of a freighter. Not every load is worth the hassle of safely moving a freighter.
It's not really about avoiding gankers as much as it is not using a sledgehammer when all you need is a 12 ounce claw hammer.
Combat ships come in 9 T1 sizes from frigate to titan. Surely we can spread that love around at least a little. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
851
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Posted - 2015.09.07 05:28:48 -
[7] - Quote
DST is a T2 version of the racial industrial. It still leaves a massive gap in the industrial lineup that jumps from industrial to freighter.
That lineup goes from 3.5k m3 base capacity to almost 450k base hauling capacity in one jump. There is an ocean of room between those 2 levels. Training time is likewise odd, going from an hour to a month in one mighty leap to reach the next hull.
There is no reason that flying a giant box in space should cost a ton of ISK, and no reason that boxes in decent increments do not exist.
If the reason these ships exist is to provide pirates with targets that's fine, but at the least a hauler should not need a capital ship to move loads over 100k but below 400k.
Taking the T1 line up a couple of steps say 10x capacity and 50x base gives you around 35k base and about 175k base. Adjust that around a bit so that each class is beginning slightly more than the max of the smaller size.
Making it a faction line makes it easier to balance as you only need one set of hulls. Let the Industrials and their T2 variants stay as 'military transports' and let interbus sell their designs as they are neutral and focused just on moving cargo. It's what they did to mining with the ORE brand. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
854
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Posted - 2015.09.07 16:53:13 -
[8] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:
40k -> 100k -> 150k -> 320k+ seems more than a fair progression to me already.
It would be, if we were discussing a line up of T1 ships, instead of a bunch of relatively very expensive T2 Ships and capital ships. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
855
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Posted - 2015.09.07 17:19:32 -
[9] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Eli Apol wrote:
40k -> 100k -> 150k -> 320k+ seems more than a fair progression to me already.
It would be, if we were discussing a line up of T1 ships, instead of a bunch of relatively very expensive T2 Ships and capital ships. So now we want cheap and disposable balance wrecking ships as well? Yep this thread is going places. e: adding quoting
How does a flying box wreck the balance of anything? Because it might be slightly more challenging to get your Yar! on?"
The new ships would have balanced tank levels to go with their smaller size. They would have similar levels of profitability to gank, just on a smaller scale.
The game may be based on PvP, but not every single pixel need be a combat ship. As I said, we go from frigate to titan in 9 T1 steps, with multiple tiers of T2 mixed in there. We can afford some attention for things that don't polish your personal Epeen once in a while. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
858
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Posted - 2015.09.08 04:27:11 -
[10] - Quote
I am not sure on the numbers and I do my posting at work on my phone...which is why I rarely answer specifics.
In general, the haulers go from 3.5k-ish to 100 times that in one jump.
I don't count Blockade Runners or DST for the same reason I don't stick Assault frigates in the same direct line to destroyers. T2 ships are specialized branches, not mainline ships, and they cost a significant premium for their specialization.
So the gap is easiest expressed as multiples of the base industrial capacity. Jumping to 10x base capacity gives you in general a new hull that starts around where the base hulls max. Somewhere around 45x does this again for the gap on the new hulls and freighters.
For my part, this is almost entirely about cost. I tend to drift from one area to the next, and keep a lot of stuff in a Iteron 5 for fitting and ammo. It's often overfull. Drones and missiles can take up plenty of space, and it supplies all sizes of combat ship. Often I just sell off and buy new ships wherever I go.
I don't need a freighter, and it would get ganked if I used it since I would shrinkwrap mauraders to bounce around in there if I had one, yet the Iteron is too small. For my purposes the premium for a DST is also not worth it.
There is a gap, and it's huge. Filling it would not be a bad thing. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
861
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Posted - 2015.09.08 21:40:52 -
[11] - Quote
Hauling stuff isn't some hyper specialized ship function. It's one of the most basic things a ship does. It's worth its own T1 line-up.
Why should moving loads bigger than a bread box always require billion+ ISK ships? Seriously, where's the balance problem in an unarmed flying box? There are more playstyles in EVE than pirates and they could use a little dev time too. If anything this puts more targets in space. Is 'no' just a Pavlovian response now-post an idea, get a flurry of 'no' on reflex?
A full line of cargo moving options is almost a QOL issue. It's not some huge balance nightmare if freight can suddenly be moved in sub freighter amounts in ships that don't cost a billion ISK. |
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