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Sorrento	Posted - 2003.11.23 01:08:00 - [1] Hi, im thinking of buying a raven and am confused to the ammount of differing ew counter modules to use... should i use gravametric or radar? what difference do they make? if i boost my radar and not my gravametric, what will that acheive? EI: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to live in this tiiiny old house, with greaaaaat big holes in the roof. GC: House? You were lucky to have a HOUSE! We used to live in one room, all hundred and twenty-six of us, no furniture. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING! TG: You were lucky to have a ROOM! We used to have to live in a corridor! MP: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin' in a corridor! Woulda' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph. EI: Well when I say "house" it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpaulin, but it was a house to US. "
Raucus	Posted - 2003.11.23 03:29:00 - [2] Sorry If you need to ask that.... dont buy a BS.... you will lose it, probably real fast.
Sorrento	Posted - 2003.11.23 11:30:00 - [3] Well, with help like that, i probably will loose it real fast If you can't be helpfull, then leave this channel and go to the general eve channel.. EI: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to live in this tiiiny old house, with greaaaaat big holes in the roof. GC: House? You were lucky to have a HOUSE! We used to live in one room, all hundred and twenty-six of us, no furniture. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING! TG: You were lucky to have a ROOM! We used to have to live in a corridor! MP: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin' in a corridor! Woulda' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph. EI: Well when I say "house" it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpaulin, but it was a house to US. "
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.23 12:00:00 - [4] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 23/11/2003 12:02:55 He is being helpfull, and its true what hes saying, although everyone has to start learning somewhere. Caldari ships are gravimetric based, so buying any radar protections would not be worth your while. Check out some of the fan sites for more EW help. Be sure youve done your reading before ploughing all that money in possibly the wrong ship for your purposes. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Sorrento	Posted - 2003.11.23 12:07:00 - [5] Cheers, a bs is still a long way off (and asking this question shows why) EI: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to live in this tiiiny old house, with greaaaaat big holes in the roof. GC: House? You were lucky to have a HOUSE! We used to live in one room, all hundred and twenty-six of us, no furniture. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING! TG: You were lucky to have a ROOM! We used to have to live in a corridor! MP: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin' in a corridor! Woulda' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph. EI: Well when I say "house" it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpaulin, but it was a house to US. "
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 07:44:00 - [6] Short short answer: As others have noted if you have to ask you're not ready for the ship you want. Short Answer: If you meet an EW ship one-on-one and the EW ship is full on configured for EW there is nothing you can do to stop it from jamming you. Long Answer: You do have recourse against EW. Again, one-on-one against a fully loaded EW ship (usually a Blackbird or Scorpion but can be others) they will shut you down. Not fair you say? Well...it's not as bad as many would have you think. While they may be able to jam you they aren't very good on the attack. You may not be able to kill them but they will have hard time killing you too. Your best course of action is to get the hell out of Dodge (i.e. run). Otherwise you can just sit there and get pounded. There are several different forms that EW takes. Jammers which cut your ability to lock a target. Dampers which reduce the range at which your weapons will work/work well. Warp scramblers which prevent you from going to warp to escape and stasis webifiers which slow your movement drastically. Many players have complained about the uber strength of EW ships that the Devs seems to be likely to nerf them soon. To my mind this is crap. I fly a BB and I cna assure you it is anything BUT an uber-ship. Unfortuantely most players simply don't want to take the necessary measures to protect themselves (e.g. 'wasting' a slot(s) on ECCM). My feeling is tough luck for them if they want to opt for ultra-strength in weapons thus allowing an EW ship to lock them down. Here are some ways you can protect yourself to some degree. (I'll start another post so I don't get caught on board limitations)
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:03:00 - [7] As a Blackbird driver I am loathe to post this since it helps everyone BUT me but I am hoping the player community and especially the Devs will realize that EW is NOT overpowered and there is recourse to defend against EW. Enough so as to not have the need for an EW nerf. I can guarantee from experience that nailing my Blackbird is sadly all too easy. Uber ship it is not. JAMMERS: Jammers keep you locking on to another ship and I think what the OP was on about. Each race uses a different method for sensors. I am away from home and do not have access to the game or game manual so don't nail me on the specifics. Look at your ship information and you'll see what I'm talking about. Checking ship info and scrolling down on attributes you will see a section listing sensor strength. LADAR, Gravimetric and so on. Each race's ships are all one thing and none of the others. For instance, IIRC, Amarr are all LADAR (Laser Radar). Again IIRC, frigates tend around 7-8 points, cruisers around 11-12 points and battleships around 14-16 points in just ONE stat (e.g. gravimetric). As an EW ship, if I want to jam you, I have to BEAT your sensor score (equalling it you win...this one is all or nothing). EW ships can mount in the med-slot jammers. Each one is good for 6 points against ONE type of sensor (i.e. Gravimetric) and 2 points against all other forms. Most cruisers, for instance, have 11 points in their area of specialty. So if, say, you have gravimetric sensors and I have two EW-gravimetric jammers you lose. 6+6=12 which beats your 11. That sucks you may say but not all is lost for you. You can buy ECCM-Gravimetric (I am on about gravitmetric here but you need to choose what is tight for your ship) that adds one point to gravimetric. Remember that in a tie (12 vs. 12) you win. My 12 points of jamming no longer work. I now have to hit you with a third slot of jamming. (continued in next post)
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:13:00 - [8] Edited by: Mon Palae on 24/11/2003 09:11:22 So "big deal" you say, you probably have thta third slot of jamming available. Well...you're probably right. As I said earlier one-on-one I WILL jam you. The problem lies in if you have buddies. Further, unless the BB pilot knows what ships he/she is likely to face they have to cover their bets. BB pilots, with 6-med slots, may put 2 jammers in each slot to deal with three different race's sensors. But there are 4 different races. Say the BB pilot sips the Caldari sensor but meets a Caldari ship. Remember each jammer can do 2-points against all sensors. So, the BB can jam any one Caldari ship (unless it is a Blackbird...they have 12 natural points). BB = 12, all Other Caldari Cruisers = 11. In this example the BB has given up jamming Caldari (which would give 6 points) in favor of the six points for the other three races so it has to use Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar jammers at 2 points each against Caldari. 6 slots x 2 points each = 12 total. Tie goes to the defender so 12 won't do it against any Blackbird or other Caldari cruiser with +1 ECCM (11 native + 1 ECCM).
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:33:00 - [9] This is getting long I know but bear with me if you want to learn about these things. As I said before one-on-one a BB can jam any other ship. That is not entirly correct. With six slots he has to skip one race. If he meets one of the cruisers he didn't select and that cruiser has +1 ECCM he cannot stop it. Against a battleship of that race he is 100% unable to do a thing to it in terms of jamming. At BEST a BB can jam three ships, at worst zero. A Scorpion is better off since it has 8 med-slots and can jam at least one ship with certainty. Jammers also work at the range a ship can get any lock at all which for a BB is something like 63km base (can be more depedning on skills and fittings). Realize that if the BB is fully fitted for EW it has given up anything like afterburners, shiled hardeners and so on. It is also rather weak in the weapons/shields/armor department compared to other cruisers. As such, if you have a small squadron of ships with you, the Blackbird is in trouble. He might jam you down, maybe two ships and if really lucky three ships. In most cases one is a given, two are an even chance and three very remote chance. The Scorpion fares better to be sure but is is a battleship so it should. There are caveats to this. There exists an EW device called a multi-spectra jammer that does 4 points of jamming across the board. This is already getting long so I'll leave it to you to do the math. Hopefully this is enough so far to give you the basis to se how it all works.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:46:00 - [10] So...if jammed are you screwed? Not necessarily although you will certainly have a much harder time attacking. Unless you have some very specific weapons you may be unable to attack at all. Wepons you can still attack with if jammed are Friend-or-Foe missiles, Smart bombs and drones. FoF missiles do not require a lock and will attack any enemy they detecton their own. They come in varying abilities from damage to range and you of course must have missile turrets installed and the necessary skills to use them like any other weapon. Smart bombs are very close range weapons mostly meant for destroying incoming missiles. Nevertheless if a ship is in range it will take damage too. Smartbombs are area effect weapons so no lock needed. Drones generally need a lock to be directed but they will attack on their own if something gets close enough. For an unlocked target (since you're jammed) you need to get very close to the enemy ship to make them work. You may be thinking that getting close to the EW ship will be a pain it isn't 100% bad for you. If he is fully fitted with EW he has no speed other than his base which, depending on skills and even assuming overdrives, will maybe get him to 300-400 km/s. Most ships can beat this with a few ABs running. Also, if you are fortunate enough to have cruise missiles (which IIRC are FoF and very long range) you don't even need to get close. Finally, a BB generaly doesn't have much offensive firepower so while you might take a few licks on your way on to the ship it won't be as bad as if you tried to do the same thing to, say, a Moa.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:58:00 - [11] Getting to the end here... What about other EW items? They aren't nearly as scary as they seem. Dampers: As far as I know there is no countering these. They reduce the range and tracking ability of your wepons. They do not shut them down however. Their effectiveness depends entirely on circumstances...your range vs. opponenents range vs. ability to close range. Where jammers are an all-or-nothing EW weapon dampers are a half measure...sort of splitting the difference. Stasis Webifiers: These slow your ship drastically. However, the opponent needs to be within 10km to make them work (which is getting pretty close). As such you should have an opportunity to try and stay away from that range. Also, ships with multiple MWDs are so fast that even with webifiers on them they still move very quickly. Warp Jammers: These stop you from going to warp. If you mean to stick around and fight anyway then they don't mean much unless you decide you are losing and want to run in which case they really suck for you. They have a short range though at 7.5 km so if you stay further than that you are safe. you can also install warp stabilizers that overcome these. Realize that one BB fitted for jamming as described above has no room for any of these other things. A Scorpion has more room but is still limited. Generally you will see a few ships working in tandem. One ship for jamming, one for stasis/warp scrambling.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.24 09:02:00 - [12] I know all of that was very long but hopefully you know understand how it all works and understand that you do have options to save yourself. The wonderful thing about EVE is the tradeoffs you have to make when building your ship. No single one is an Uber ship. If you want full on offensive ability then you leave yourself more open to EW ships. You can limit that with ECCM. You can opt for speed. You can go for the tank route. They all have their ups-and-downs. You are however never without options.
Monty Burns	Posted - 2003.11.24 15:45:00 - [13] WOW! Thanks man, im a relative n00b to the game and you have just answered about 60 billion questions i had. !!!!! MANY THANKS !!!!! Darwin 4tw
Dyvim Slorm	Posted - 2003.11.24 16:00:00 - [14] IIRC, to counter sensor dampeners you use sensor boosters, however this causes a ctd (supposed to be fixed in 1246).
Brzyy	Posted - 2003.11.24 17:36:00 - [15] Exelent job, Mon Palae!!! Thank you a lot!!
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.24 19:26:00 - [16] Quote: They have a short range though at 7.5 km so if you stay further than that you are safe. Not all of them. Those with a range of 7.5 are twice as strong, but if you got no warp stabilizers, the weaker ones will work just as good from further away. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Morin	Posted - 2003.11.24 20:14:00 - [17] Just one correction. You do not have to BEAT someones sensor strength while jamming, you have to equal it. So, if you have a sensor strength of 12, 2 race specific jammers WILL jam you. I heard multiple people talk about going over it, or matching it, so I ran some tests. 12 strength, -12 cause of jamming -> 0 sensor strength -> can't lock anything.
Striker IV	Posted - 2003.11.25 04:03:00 - [18] sticky! sticky! very very well written Team work is essential... It gives the other team something ELSE to shoot at!
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.11.25 06:47:00 - [19] Quote: Just one correction. You do not have to BEAT someones sensor strength while jamming, you have to equal it. So, if you have a sensor strength of 12, 2 race specific jammers WILL jam you. I heard multiple people talk about going over it, or matching it, so I ran some tests. 12 strength, -12 cause of jamming -> 0 sensor strength -> can't lock anything. Really? You know...I never actually tested this out. I was always told I had to beat the sensor strength of an opposing ship. This makes a HUGE difference. This way seems to make less sense. My BB can be locked as easily as any Caldari cruiser with only two race-specific jammers. The only difference is that I need to put one less point of ECCM on to get over the line than other ships. Seems like a pretty small thing. I'll need to test this (sorry but I want to see it for myself) when I am done with Thanksgiving vacation. If no one else settles this before I do I will post back and put this to bed. LUTHER: Sorry about the incorrect warp destabilizer setting. I always forget that I was given a 'present' of the more powerful destabilizer by a friend upon getting my BB and keep assuming they all have a range of 7.5km. That is an assumption that has already gotten me killed once so I think it is high-time I learn the real ranges. ON NERFING EW: It does seem that some PvP players have figured ways to exploit EW in fashions I never thought of and it can be de-stabilizing. On the face of it EW as it stands seems fine but if you really really try and work your systems in very...creative...fashions it seems you can push EW beyond what I expect the Devs intended. As such a nerf may be in order but from what I've seen the Devs talking about it is my opinoin the nerf they are considering is on the wrong track. Guess we will have to wait and see. As the game stands now the Scorpion seems to be the battleship of choice among PvPers. I don't seem to see all that many Scorpions but I may be hanging out in all the wrong places. I mention this since i said I though EW was not overpowered but to be fair in some people's hands it seems it might be. I for one can't manage what many seem to though. My loss I guess.
Bolt Zapper	Posted - 2003.11.26 01:19:00 - [20] Instead of a bs try to get all the crusier ship skills. It may even take shorter than getting a bs. ------------------------------------------------ In two seconds it was gone. And all that was left was a corpse. The poor Frigate never standed a chance againest the scorpion. Now he knows not to rat huntiong in his frigate in 0.0. Too bad he never learns his lesson.
MooKids	Posted - 2003.11.27 01:47:00 - [21] Yep, he is right, you just have to have the jam strength equal to or greater than the sensor strength of the target. Seems many people don't know this. I found out for sure when I jammed a friendly with his permission for the test. Lost .1 sec status, but helped a lot more in understanding it. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Reah	Posted - 2003.11.28 01:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Reah on 28/11/2003 01:21:32 Quote: Short Answer: If you meet an EW ship one-on-one and the EW ship is full on configured for EW there is nothing you can do to stop it from jamming you. its just want to comment on this, 1on1 a ew ship will get ****ed against another ship(of the same kind if the other ship has counter measures like eccm/sensor boosters etc(not entirely sure about cruiser but for battleships this is true)) like, in theory i can build up a sensor strength of 48gravimetric and u would be forced to have 8gravimetirc ecm modules to actually be able to jam him, the more common ecm is usually 4-5multispectralswitch does -16/20 on all ships or 3-4 target spesific ecm, witch does -18/24.. now, on a scorpion u have +16gravimetric by deafult, and if u use 1 of ur 8 medium slots, to fit a gravimetric eccm, ur ship will have +19gravimetric witch leaves u invulnerable to 4multispecs/3 race spesific jammers. however, if the guy ur fighting have 4race spesific or 5multispectrals u would have to build urself up to +21 gravimetric to be able to take the multi spectrals(need 2eccm equiped), or 3 eccm if he use 4race spesific (build urself upto +25 to counter his -24). so basically if u add up 3gravimetric eccm on a scorp, u wont get jammed, and u still have 5med slots to fit defence stuff in and so u counter eccm an ew scorp.. i find ecm to be a bit of a gamble, either it works and u toast ur enemy while he cant even shoot at u, or.. he is still able to shoot at u(from eccm) and will probably waste ur ship as he most likly has more shielding than u. the big advantage of eccm is because many/most dont bother to equip eccm and hence u easily jam ppl while still having lots of slots to mwd/web/scrabmler/shield booster etc.. also, when ur fighting alone, there is a cnahce the enemy will warp in and scramble you, and even tho u might be killing him, his friend pops up in local and shortly after he will come to help his friend, u dont have this problem with if ur target is jammed as he aint able to warp scramble u and so u can warp away when his friend show up.. about dampners, i dont like them mutch(but then again i do close range fighting so they wouldent help me mutch, difference from ecm tho, is that theyreduce ur target a bit, rather than either jamming him 100% or not at all, if u say get 4dampners on u and have a sensor booster u should still be at around 10km locking range on a scorp witch is more then enough if u have close range weapons and the speed to get close, so generally they aint that good, for long range battles tho they are very effective but for short range they are not very effective imho :) sorry for writign sutch a long reply to sutch a small quote, i got a bit carried away ;) and errm, i gues im a bit bored atm, 2am localtime :/ edit: fixed some typos(probably a ton left tho)
Mon Palae	Posted - 2003.12.01 02:11:00 - [23] Quote: Yep, he is right, you just have to have the jam strength equal to or greater than the sensor strength of the target. Seems many people don't know this. I found out for sure when I jammed a friendly with his permission for the test. Lost .1 sec status, but helped a lot more in understanding it. I just checked online with POLARIS. Here's the deal... Equalling the sensor strength prevents the other guy from getting lock on anything. BUT...any locks he already has remain. Going 1 point OVER your target's sensor strength causes him to lose all locks. Good to know.
Shadevildmanden	Posted - 2003.12.02 12:16:00 - [24] Edited by: Shadevildmanden on 02/12/2003 12:17:04 This really should be a sticky, pld Mon I learned more in reading this than messing around in EVE for ages
Imraith Nimphais	Posted - 2003.12.02 23:39:00 - [25] bump for a sticky! really good post
Lentia	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:16:00 - [26] Edited by: Lentia on 03/12/2003 17:26:54 Mon Palae There are numerous inaccuracies in your post...bad boy 1. Dampeners affect range and lock speed, not tracking. They CAN be countered by skills(long range targeting and signiture analysis) as well as modules (sensor boosters) which increase range and speed. 2. Knocking tracking speed and turret range with target disruptors is also a EW skill which is countered with skills(motion prediction) and modules (tracking computers). 3. Dont forget about energy drains which will suck your cap and leave u crippled. Guess what more skills and modules to counter these also, 4. Dont tell people things as truth if you obviously dont know what youre saying, not cool. 5. There is a good beginers guide to E.W. on eve-i.com in the guide section. Start there then ask around and read the info on modules while in game. Lentia Military Officer http://www.staf.online-guild.com/
Apoca	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:37:00 - [27] nice post cheers very useful information Millennium is Recruiting..... do you want to know more?
dishwasher	Posted - 2003.12.03 19:07:00 - [28] whow what a load of info. accuarte or not this thread has givin me a much better idea of hwere to begin on understanding ew.

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