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So... how would you nerf T3's ?

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ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 939	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:26:22 - [1] - Quote This question comes in two sections..... The cruisers.... and the destroyers.... but overall its a simple problem. If you ask "I need a ship to do X" the answer 90% of the time will be a T3. Other ships can compete in certain areas, but when you take into account the full package they're just out classed. Starting with the destoyers.... In one fell swoop they have, almost, invalidated all non specialised sub-cruiser ships... and quite a few cruisers too. Obviously not including Dictor or logi roles, but without much work the T3 destoyers are just better than any of their counterparts. In a single T2 fit, a Svipul can tank like a cruiser, do 400dps, fit full tackle and move 3000m's... admitadly not all at the same time, but with such a quick change time between modes i have found it makes little to no difference. Better tackle than a ceptor, better survivability and dmg than a Assault frig, really fast, tiny sig, over heats for days. Other than nostalgia and "nobody will engage a t3" why would you fly anything else? T3 Cruisers.... Sure a huginn has longer range webs than a loki, but it doesnt stand close to tank, speed, and damage (not even including the extra bits like bubble immune, cloaky versions). And it continues acroos the class. If you say i can bring my lechisis... or my cloaky 200kehp tackle proteus....? I know what the answer will be. So how would you fix this problem? is there any hope against out T3 overloards? Some of the arguments ive heard... before they appear... Price -T3's cost more so they should be better.... Personally i think your paying for flexbility, you should not then out perform a specialised ship at their own game and then some, and certainly not multiple ships all at the same time. Skill - its more skill intensive / i have the chance of losing skill points.... There are plenty of ships that need more skills than a T3 that arent as rediculious -_- They have strenghts and weakness.... instead of Strength^10 and weaknesses No Worries
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1390	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:39:55 - [2] - Quote I think the T3 cruisers are fine as they are, they can't do everything at once and need to be fit for purpose just like any other ship. If you make a cloaky interdicted webbing loki you end up with not so much tank either. T3 dessies: mode change needs to have 20 second cd with MUCH more obvious animations, sharpshooter should be vastly different to defensive for example. You should be able to be punished for going out of def mode.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1459	Posted - 2015.09.07 12:39:58 - [3] - Quote i like assault frigs and i hate t3d's, dont think they thought about assault frigs when they released t3d's, my answer to nerfing t3d's is either remove them or buff assault frigs so they can compete EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3077	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:44:25 - [4] - Quote T3Ds I think are fine as they are. T3 Cruisers just need to be balanced as a cruiser and they will be mostly fine. I have some personal opinions about how the mechanics of them should be, I don't think this is the thread for that though. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11636	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:48:53 - [5] - Quote I'd like to see them hover near enough to the legion so still quite good but a little less terrifying. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 939	Posted - 2015.09.07 13:57:26 - [6] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: T3Ds I think are fine as they are. I would like to here your thoughts on why... they over shadow waaay to may ships in my opinion. Omnathious Deninard wrote: T3 Cruisers just need to be balanced as a cruiser and they will be mostly fine. I have some personal opinions about how the mechanics of them should be, I don't think this is the thread for that though. This is exactly that thread... Personally i would like to bring them in line with thier cruiser brethren.... want a damage boat sure.... but you wont be able to tank it like a battleship... ... No Worries
Arla Sarain 637	Posted - 2015.09.07 14:42:44 - [7] - Quote There need to be more way that the enemy can exploit a T3Ds weakness in particular modes. Without the modes they're just destroyers with relatively simple stats. But with them they surpass other ships at the role. Speed mode makes T3Ds faster than the majority of frigs. Defense mode makes them on par with cruisers. You can get some other frigs with similar tank but it takes a lot more bling with less turnover (22k EHP wolves exist, but not worth it when 22k +300HP/s svipuls do too for a cheaper price tag and the magical insurance they get). For starters, the insurance needs to either go, or other ships need a similar trait. It's just too cheap to fly T3Ds. That's not to say that the insurance has no merit - it encourages you to welp yourself against unfavourable odds for the promised cost of a T2 frig but with the strength of a cruiser with frigate sized sigs and such. But that's not something that should be attached to T3Ds. Base stats could be weaker. So that in a mode it's biased heavily to a particular role whilst being worse than average of the same size at other roles. And forcing a pilot to switch modes becomes a fighting strategy. Hecate is the most balanced but shouldn't be the template for the rest. Having sentinels be the primary counter to this class is no better than it is now.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3078	Posted - 2015.09.07 15:04:46 - [8] - Quote ChromeStriker wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: T3 Cruisers just need to be balanced as a cruiser and they will be mostly fine. I have some personal opinions about how the mechanics of them should be, I don't think this is the thread for that though. This is exactly that thread... Personally i would like to bring them in line with thier cruiser brethren.... want a damage boat sure.... but you wont be able to tank it like a battleship... ... For simplicity sake I will use a Phobos' base stats for a starting point, for a Proteus, which is the T3 I am most familiar with. Proteus Gallente Strategic Cruiser Bonuses: 5% heat damage reduction per level Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 1165 PWG, 375 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1300(+140) / 2200(+160) / 2500(-31) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1375 / 335s / 4.1 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 205(-4) / 0.58(+0.0285) / 14,000,000(-1,080,000) / 11.26s(-0.88) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+5) / 250(+25) / 6 Sensor strength: 17(+2) Signature radius: 160 Cargo Capacity: 450(+135) From here the subsystems will provide the ship bonuses and make minor adjustments to the ship stats. Offensive Subsystems: Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level Role Bonus: 100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use -1 Turret Hardpoint Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret Optimal per level 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level -100% drone bandwidth Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector 5% Drone Tracking per level 10% bonus to drone damage per level 7.5% bonus to drone hitpoints per level -1 high slot, -1 turret hardpoint +100% drone bandwidth Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level Propulsion Subsystems Proteus Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier 5% increased agility per level Role Bonus: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction -1 Low slot Defensive Subsystems Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating 5% bonus to armor hitpoints per level. Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector 7.5% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter 4% bonus to all armor resistances per level. 100% bonus to remote armor repair system optimal range per level (Note: This gives a proper logistics mode but does not overshadow even the T1 support cruiser) If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 339	Posted - 2015.09.07 15:43:28 - [9] - Quote Nerf svipul. Rest are fine. T3 cruisers however are not, they need a buff in some regards and a nerf in others.
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 599	Posted - 2015.09.07 16:45:25 - [10] - Quote Remove them? Call me crazy, but honestly no one has yet to be able to tell me what the hell the dessies are meant for in the first place, besides just the usual "KILL ALL THE SMALL SHIPS! RAWR!" The cruisers are still a mess in most places and the destroyers were f'ing pointless to begin with. Neat idea, but pointless. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4629	Posted - 2015.09.07 17:31:54 - [11] - Quote Nerf? T3 Tactical Destroyers just need a balance pass (with emphasis on the Svipul). T3 Strategic Cruisers have already been hit with the nerf bat - they too just need a balance pass (to make some of the odd subsystems more useful). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vic Jefferson GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 582	Posted - 2015.09.07 19:29:44 - [12] - Quote Svipul is the new Ishtar. As of the time of writing this post, the Svipul is the number one ship on zKill, with more than 2x the usage by kills of the #4 Confessor. Really have to see where things are after the Svipul gets a substantial readjustment. This is no statistical blip, its been that way for months. The other thing is, the speed meta is a self-feeding loop. Since the only things out there to fight go way too fast or project damage way too well (or both!), you can't bring brawling ships. Thus, you see an even greater constraint on the ships people will field, with a heavy emphasis on kiting. Svipul is just literally the ship for all seasons. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 831	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:20:36 - [13] - Quote Sobaan Tali wrote: Remove them? Call me crazy, but honestly no one has yet to be able to tell me what the hell the dessies are meant for in the first place, besides just the usual "KILL ALL THE SMALL SHIPS! RAWR!" The cruisers are still a mess in most places and the destroyers were f'ing pointless to begin with. Neat idea, but pointless. Lower class w-space sleepers, duh. They are perfect for the job and they can defend themselves. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 469	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:49:46 - [14] - Quote I would nerf T3's cruisers passive tanking ability. It is the key factor of their supremacy. It's just simply wrong when you rich or either doing even better than BS in a such smaller hull. You could easily have 130-190k of ehp on those lil bastards while they still faster and bettter that BS. What would be the obvious choice to counter wing of Machariels? Right, wing of Proteuses. What would be the right choice to counter wing of Proteuses? Right, you know the answer.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1612	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:49:54 - [15] - Quote My first thought is to get rid of the 60% bonuses and what not on the t3ds and replace with like normal 20-37.5% bonuses. probably worth testing a bit first. confessor has a 33.33% resist bonus, drop that to 20% like on every other ship with a resist bonus. the 33.3 sig radius bonus, not sure how much that should get nerfed, but probably nerf that too. it shouldn't be the size of a frigate. prop mode, I'd say tie that bonus to a MWD or something, the 10mn ab fits are almost silly. I feel like I don't see too many complaining about the hecate sharpshooter, drop fro 66% to probably a 37.5% bonus so it would be similar to the apoc although I like the targeting range and sensor strength bonuses. @ChainsawPlankto
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1396	Posted - 2015.09.07 20:55:20 - [16] - Quote 10mn ab fits no longer work with the nerf to PG confessor and svipul received.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3080	Posted - 2015.09.07 21:16:54 - [17] - Quote ChromeStriker wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: T3Ds I think are fine as they are. I would like to here your thoughts on why... they over shadow waaay to may ships in my opinion. Part of the "problem" with T3Ds is they are a advanced combat destroyer, something that up to their point did not exist. They do their job well, assault frigates do not, they were the first ships to get balanced and still had some of the old mentality when it was done. Assault frigates need to get a second balance pass and brought up to the new standard. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1612	Posted - 2015.09.07 22:03:33 - [18] - Quote t3 cruisers on the other hand... Well I almost feel like they aren't really in too bad of a situation. it is a few combinations of subsystems with mods and links that make them strong. the huge amount of buffer, with decent damage and projection, or the unscannable and bubble immune setups. I imagine a nerf to specific subs would probably be the best way to go about it. my initial thought when they first announced t3 crusiers would be that each sub has bonuses but also penalties. They don't seem to have the penalty part. although rebalancing them to that sort of thing seems like it would just be a major headache. @ChainsawPlankto
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1612	Posted - 2015.09.07 22:11:43 - [19] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: 10mn ab fits no longer work with the nerf to PG confessor and svipul received. For Svipuls the first page of zkill had ~35 mwd and ~10 10mn fits, then a few with no propmod and a few with 1mn abs. I should probably write it down as I'm bad at counting, but oh well. I don't agree with 10mn ab fits no longer work, unless they have another nerf on sisi that I haven't seen yet. @ChainsawPlankto
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 340	Posted - 2015.09.07 22:32:26 - [20] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: 10mn ab fits no longer work with the nerf to PG confessor and svipul received. not true

Arla Sarain 639	Posted - 2015.09.07 23:13:40 - [21] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: 10mn ab fits no longer work with the nerf to PG confessor and svipul received. https://zkillboard.com/kill/48851606/ Yeah they do work. 10MN ABs are not inherently the problem. A lot of undersized stuff can fit them. Several of T1 combat frigs can. The real problem is the agility bonus that allows T3Ds to use 10MN ABs to a similar effect to MWDing ceptors with cruiser agility without actually being scrammable.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1117	Posted - 2015.09.08 01:22:59 - [22] - Quote I've never flown a T3D so I can't comment. BUT: T3 Cruisers, I use them for exploration and solo traveling. They work great for what I do and I wouldn't nerf them at all. Long range fits are in line with other cruiser fits, and are most definitely NOT OP. Short range fits put them in tackle range, where they can and will die to the right pilots. I'd rather see BS get a buff, if that's the criteria for nerf statistics. I don't mind that they are better than other cruiser hulls at some things. They are still susceptible to ganks and they are still in the realm of 'rock, paper, scissors' EVE. I also don't mind that they can dominate the world of 'Frigates Online".
Reah Darknorth Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2015.09.08 01:46:30 - [23] - Quote T3Ds are almost like a bad dream which somehow unfortunately became a reality. I would have thought that the frigates would have been the obvious candidate for the next T3 treatment. Still, I don't think I would nerf them at this point. Maybe a minor tweak to the Svipul, but I mean a small tweak. Overall I think there are ships that need work much more than any of the T3s. For example, the Cruor could use just a bit of a rework.
Dato Koppla Kiwis In Space No Points Necessary 867	Posted - 2015.09.08 05:38:51 - [24] - Quote The Svipul is definitely overpowered. The useage statistics really show this. The problem with it is that it can outclass almost every single small weapon platform in the game at most roles. All of its fits are amazingly good. 10MN Shield Booster, 10MN Dual Rep, 10MN 280 kite, MWD 280 kite, mwd/scram/web AC brawl with shield or armor buffer. All this while getting amazing insurance that makes it cheaper to lose than AFs. The rest of the T3Ds can't even come close to the Svipul. I'd say the best balanced T3D right now is the Confessor, it's not too ridiculous and has many weaknesses. The Hecate and Jackdaw on the other hand are a little underwhelming but I'd be hesitant to suggest a buff for these. The Hecate is the one that needs the most love IMO.
Nicholas Goldfinder State Protectorate Caldari State 18	Posted - 2015.09.08 09:38:16 - [25] - Quote Usage statistics are just a clue. They do not necessarily mean the ship is op. On the other hand indicate that the community has found a tactic and not its counter. And yes, maybe the tactic is op, maybe not. I would rather find discussions on how to counter certain tactics, rather than the usual, sometimes lazy, nerf speech.
ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 939	Posted - 2015.09.08 10:15:54 - [26] - Quote Nicholas Goldfinder wrote: Usage statistics are just a clue. They do not necessarily mean the ship is op. On the other hand indicate that the community has found a tactic and not its counter. And yes, maybe the tactic is op, maybe not. I would rather find discussions on how to counter certain tactics, rather than the usual, sometimes lazy, nerf speech. You cant have tactics without the ships. People use the T3's because they're the best for the job, its very rare a new "tactic" comes around. The T3 destroyers show this the most, theyve taken what would need multiple ships, condensed it into a single hull and done it better. Thats the problem. And as for counters, the problem is any counter to the destroyers they just dont engage or get away from. Thats what the stats show No Worries
big miker Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 335	Posted - 2015.09.08 12:15:41 - [27] - Quote T3 Cruiser HP subsystem changed / bonus removed. HP Bonus on t2 ressist ships is stupid. It's fine on the Damnation. I still find it ******** how these Cruiser sized ship's get rediculous EHP levels combined with either high dps or utility. My personal opinion though :P Also t3d's wrecked the healthy frigate meta we had. Doesn't matter how you change them they will overshadow the currunt t1 / t2 frigates. Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
Tsukino Stareine Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class 1400	Posted - 2015.09.08 12:34:49 - [28] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: 10mn ab fits no longer work with the nerf to PG confessor and svipul received. https://zkillboard.com/kill/48851606/ Yeah they do work. 10MN ABs are not inherently the problem. A lot of undersized stuff can fit them. Several of T1 combat frigs can. The real problem is the agility bonus that allows T3Ds to use 10MN ABs to a similar effect to MWDing ceptors with cruiser agility without actually being scrammable. define "work". That fit you linked is terrible and probably only "works" on idiots burning directly towards it attempting to get tackle. In that case the 10mn AB is completely moot as you could do exactly the same with a mwd. Also cruiser agility? I don't think so. It's over 10 second align with the 10mn
RcTamiya SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart. 6	Posted - 2015.09.08 13:15:36 - [29] - Quote If you nerf our hamlegions we just fly ham damnations ... more ehp more dps more/equal utility slots ... sadly bigger sig :( So a real balancepass .... let's see, first we start with the issues currently .... for armor: -> Jammgus should get on equal level as falcons, if in short range you'll die (however i like 400 dps, 5 ecm 11,3 strenght rainbow fits with 140k ehp, why do we even need anything else....), also considering its resistlayout vs current DPS-Meta. -> Proteus, wspaces DPS, countered by 2 medium neuts.... however its tank is nice, the long point/scramb is balanced, i'd say dps are fine, but ehp is too high, also considering its resistlayout vs current DPS-Meta. -> Legion, mostly used for neuting, however hamlegions and (in case of ixtab) laserlegions can compete with Proteus in their DPS-Role, also nice utility slots, perfect for peccm/damps, pretty much THE allrounder T3 in game. -> Loki, most people fit it wrong, it's not made for dps, the loki is build to increase your overall damage application and make sure that your target is pinned down, most fits aint living long in a bigger fight, however if fit correctly its doing allright and is very balanced, some may argue, that you have to plot 2 resistanceholes, but that's not true ;) for shield: ->Tengu is fine as its current state i'd say, ups and downs are excisting, in pulsar it becomes VERY beasty :) -> Proteus is useless shieldfit in compairson to a Lachesis. -> Legion is fine for neuting, however i'd prefer a Curse -> Loki most shieldfits suck, however there's a few very decent shieldlokis out there with only 1 web, if you want dualweb, rather go for Huginn, so balanced. Now lets look on the subs: proteus and legion aint intended to ever get shieldtanked by their subsystems tengu wasn't inteded to be a very well tanked armor jammplatform loki is squishy with most fits, but can reach 250k ehp without links + 400 dps very easy (again it's a utility platform, not dps!!!!!) So, how to engage those issues? First of all remove tengus t2 resists on armor OR add a defensive sub for armor tanking.... (with drawbacks), however personally i'd miss above mentioned jammgufit, but i doubt that it's balanced. Keep Lokis as they are, IF at all, rather adjust their basicresistances a little Legions either need a shieldsub or should lose their ability to shieldtank at all (also shieldbhaalgorns, i look at you :) ) Proteus needs to lose some buffer in armor, i'd say the ehp of a hamlegion is fine, if you decrease the total armoramount of a legion -10% and get the proteus on par it's fixxed, also we don't need a shieldsub for proteus. And what about those 100 mn 120k+ ehp fittings?! We can't nerf PG/CPU without ******* the other options up, instead i'd say rebalance capitals, because 100mn T3s excist to be "unblappable" (hello mr. Vindicator, mrs. Pheonix and Target Painters), however 1 medium neut allready fucks them up, gets worse if you vindi/vigiweb them and gets devastating if you have Pheonixblapdreads on grid, once neuted out they die quicker than their 10mn AB buddies, also try to tuuuuuuuuurn..... T3-Hardcounter is very simple, a Fleet of Piratebattleships, Vindis, Bhaals, Barghests, Typhoon Fleet Issues, everything with equal tank and better DPS, however you need Support as well which is ... T3s (webloki, jammgu & neutlegion) :/ (+Logi/Triage), something which is not gonna happen in wspace due to Masslimits. So if you want to shake up the T3-Meta, you need to balancepass wormhole jumpmass, EHP of T3s in several layouts and give them a clear roll in Fleets. Also you need to Balance BS to become better than T3s OR introduce T3-BS & T2-BS as high-end Ship (which just transfers the issue from a cruiser-seized vessel to a BS-seized vessel). Regards RC
Niriel Greez Specimen 794 Project.Mayhem. 25	Posted - 2015.09.08 14:36:57 - [30] - Quote How after all these years people can still refer to T3s being overpowered is beyond me. Investment to performance ratio is very important, and in order for a T3 (cruiser) to perform well, a substantial investment is required. Your average T3 cruiser is just slightly faster than a BC and not only do you lose a minimum of about 400m (~1b for a decent fit), but you also lose a few days worth of skill points, which is huge. There is no such thing as overpowered in EVE - if something is good, the price will reflect that and thus dictate its rarity in the game. There are certain exceptions to this rule, however, namely T3Ds. T3Ds vastly out-class most ships in their own price-range while being extremely cheap. Oversized ABs are not the problem, its a fitting choice that allows diversity which can only be considered a good thing. In their current state, they are simply more effective than just about every other ship within the same price-range and that is a problem. T3Ds are perfectly fine the way they are; they are fun, dynamic ships. The price just needs to be adjusted so they find their place in the hierarchy, rather than replacing everything else.



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