A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.

Dropping their max locked targets is quicker, easier, rewards enemy FC target switching, provides an indirect cap chaining nerf and doesn't dump on small gang.

Seems simple enough.

This is interesting , limit logi only to target 2 targets.
Problem arise when someone want to use logi to something different , lets also not forget about ultimate logistic ships : carriers.
Unless we forbid using capital remote aid without the triage module active ( that will limit number of locket targets ) then we have another important issue.

"Logi Fatigue" is interesting , but i think my solution is easier to compute by server , additionally yours can be easily abused.

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"

A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.

I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"

I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha

Simply change the mechanics so that you can only be repped by people in fleet.

Or

Cap the number of reps per size. For example, you can have 5 small, 5 meds, 5 large 5 capital reps on you at the same time.



You can do that now mate, so i doesn't fix the issue

In my experience, combined forces combine their fleets. If they don't they aren't concerned with repping the guys who broadcast history they can't see, they just team up to kill stuff. Neutral reps are for stuff like station games is unaffected as as long as you are in the same fleet.

IMO remote capacitor transfers should use cap booster charges and not create cap from a vacuum.

We already have the mechanic whereby only one tractor can operate on an object at once, expand this to the logi modules maybe.

IMO remote capacitor transfers should use cap booster charges and not create cap from a vacuum.

Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.

Seems pretty well thought out, even remembers to think of the poor logi drones.

So what you're basicly saying is: Instead of being repped for that duration, you are continously repped a little amount by each mili-second? Cause if that is what you're saying then yes, supported.

Can we apply this to gun also? I mean, why can you team up to an infinite number while the logi could not?

I keep going back and rewatching the Eve trailer with the supergate...especially the sequence with the naga firing on the apoc. This video, along with almost all other eve trailers highlights the exact opposite of effective warfare given the current game mechanics...which is focusing all your reps, and all your firepower, on one target. That little Naga, despite how cool that attack run looked, would not be doing 'meaningful' damage in actual Eve battles.

If only there were both diminishing returns on focusing reps and Firepower both, you'd get some interesting and chaotic battles. A lot more exploding ships on both sides. Local reppers on your fleet ships would actually be both useful, and possibly very important in help keeping you alive.

But this all is just speculation. A change to either mechanic would have be be simply 'forced' by CCP. Not even sure they'd want this kind of revolution.

But definitely +1 to Frostys Virpio, these two game mechanics are very intertwined.

I read through it, and I like it...

But wait, I feel like I've read it before...

Oh, yeah... here it is, like 3 months ago even. Not sure if everyone's feelings have changed, but I got pretty thoroughly Ram-Rodded on that idea. I think it holds merit though.

The one thing that never gets mentioned in all these logi threads is the impact of the sniping/kitting meta. Bigger fleets that use overtanked, extreme range, low DPS ships essentially fight a duel to the death with nerf weapons at 100km, then they wonder why they can't break each other's reps.

Granted, brawling needs a lot of things to change to make it viable as a big fleet doctrine, but maybe you should examine both the numbers and the fleet comps that are used before leaping to the erroneous conclusion that Logi is broken in and of itself.

Lowsec/WH people don't have a problem ripping into each other as much as anaemic and impotent Null fleets do. Why is this?

Lowsec/WH people don't have a problem ripping into each other as much as anaemic and impotent Null fleets do. Why is this?

Longrange weapons have lower DPS but usually better alpha strike.
If you have enough ships you can alpha enemy ship before he gets enough reps , something that is not possible on closer ranges , as it is easier to rep high DPS but small alpha.

Logis needs to be nerfed, there's two things that make them broken and owerpowered: the ability to use large reps and their very small signature radius.

HACs don't get a bonus to large guns, so why Logis have a bonus to large reps? I say replace their CPU/PG reduction of large reps with 7.5% bonus to rep amount as seen on T1 Logis so the only way to fit large reps is to use several fitting mods, sacrificing tank and/or cap stability, and make their signature radius comparable with other T2 Cruisers.

Eventually CCP could introduce a class of T2 Battleship Logis which would have more slots that current Cruiser-based Logis and could fit large reps without fitting sacrifices, but they should also have standard disadvantages of a Battleship, such as high signature radius and low scan resolution (would also be perfect ships to have a bonus to remote sensor boosters).

People are using very often medium reps , as they allow to fit more tank.
You simply need more logistics, that are harder to kill.

I realize i also posted this in the Marauders thread, but its probably relevant here as well.

How about adding a new high slot module that prevents the target from receiving any remote reps? This would help counter logi, and it can have significant fitting/cap usage to compensate. But this basically allows people to overcome the swarms of logi that currently prevail.

Alternatively the new module could decrease the effectiveness of remote assistance by a said percentage (instead of prohibiting it completely)......

Well from my experience, WH fleets tend not to be tidi inducing monsters, thus they tend to lack the critical mass required to tip anaemic personal DPS into enough alpha to break things. Equally the same is true for the other side in terms of reps etc.

I guess it is a question of battle scale.

I couldn't comment on lowsec - it has no limitations like WH - perhaps simply a population issue?

I keep going back and rewatching the Eve trailer with the supergate...especially the sequence with the naga firing on the apoc. This video, along with almost all other eve trailers highlights the exact opposite of effective warfare given the current game mechanics...which is focusing all your reps, and all your firepower, on one target. That little Naga, despite how cool that attack run looked, would not be doing 'meaningful' damage in actual Eve battles.

If only there were both diminishing returns on focusing reps and Firepower both, you'd get some interesting and chaotic battles. A lot more exploding ships on both sides. Local reppers on your fleet ships would actually be both useful, and possibly very important in help keeping you alive.

But this all is just speculation. A change to either mechanic would have be be simply 'forced' by CCP. Not even sure they'd want this kind of revolution.

But definitely +1 to Frostys Virpio, these two game mechanics are very intertwined.

Interestingly enough CCP has announced what I believe to be the first time they have ever forced 'damage mitigation', in regards to citadel combat. Guess the idea is not so far-fetched.

I want to see how the dps cap will interact with reps. Is it going to be like the entosis cap where the reps would apply to the overload of damage still leaving DPS at the cap if enough number are present? Is this even possible seeing as they don't have any effect on each others right now (reps are applied to the target, not countering them like a web counter speed).

They could always change reps to something funky like a limited stacking refreshing hitpoint buffer.

Rather than healing x amount to the appropriate bar, they just make that bar much bigger for the length of the cycle. The extra buffer would be damaged first, but damage that overcomes it stays unless repaired by local reps. With limited stacking only a certain number of these buffers would stack, and beyond that point no further could be applied. If you make it so that a cycle cannot be ended prematurely then reps are quite severely limited.

Alpha becomes much less of an issue, as the reps can be applied before any damage occurs, and you have the entire length of the cycle to overcome the added hitpoints. Fitting choices open up as local reps now interact with logi in a beneficial way, with hard choices between rep power, resists and weapon mods all competing meaningfully for slots.

If rep has a cap, then anyone can just keep dps-ing through it so you might as well not bring logi and take more dps on board to go through your enemy faster. Local rep would not work with that because no ship would be able to rep with the required efficiency to ever survive while also supporting enough buffer to counter an alpha kill. Even if we push to the limit and allow more fitting space on all ship so they can field buffer mods + resist mods + local reps, you would run out of cap in no time. If we add cap boosters on those already impossible fits, we run into the issue of charge deciding when your ship die instead of the efficiency of your fleet.

Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.

I think logi ships are just overpowered, and that if T2 logi were nerfed to 1/4th of the repair output they would still be very popular in fleets but no longer an I-WIN button. I insist that 1/4th output is more than enough and would not even begin to push them into obscurity.


But I support cutting their output to half what it is, and I'll settle for no less. Also T1 logi already reps about half the rate of T2 last I checked, after the change they should be made to rep about 20% less than T2.

This is silly. Big ticket null fleets will just bring N times more of them where 1/N is the amount the module is changed by.

If you don't like the tactics of big ticket null fleets, go somewhere else to find fun.

So reducing logi output will improve the percentage of players flying what they want to fly.

Sure. Reduce logi output, fly what you want to fly, but rest assured, there will be plenty of people who will simply bring more logi to compensate,

Reducing logi effectiveness reduces its fleet value. This causes other ships to be valued more in relation to it. If this were false, and your understanding true, then making logi extremely weak would cause players to bring fleets of almost purely logi.

Please either acknowledge the point, or explain your disagreement. Then we can move on with the discussion.

A fleet that cannot be killed is infinitely valuable. Even if you had to bring like 40% logi or more for peak effectiveness,

I haven't read the whole thread but I need to say something here.

As a logi pilot, -1 to this idea.

What about incursion pilots? by your standards you would need 5 - 6 logi pilots to compliment a fleet running vanguards that only rewards 10 - 11 players anyway. That would totally screw over the PVE community.

If CCP actually takes this post seriously, and I hope they don't, then all the things suggested here should only relate to PVP.

I don't know if you actually fly logi, but being a logi pilot is very demanding as it is. You can't always lock up the whole fleet. It takes a huge amount of actual pilot skill, and I'm not talking about SP. Having the overview working for you, watchlist up, fleet broadcasts open, having to orbit things, enabling AB's and support mods, launching drones to get on killmails, all while keeping the fleet alive is extremely taxing.

If any proposed nerfs actually go through, like reduced repair amount for additional cycles down to a certain limit, or limit how many modules we can fit, or anything that nerfs logi in some way, should also see some sort of buff, like the scimitar's remote tracking bonus or something. If they do any proposed nerfs, and the community is looking for a solution, then here is my proposal:

Add more logi boats to the game. Give them each some way of assisting the fleet in other ways in relation to the nerf. Give them all some sort of fleet assistance module, such as the scimi's remote tracking computers.

One way you could do this is by making it for PVP to have the proposed changes as stated in previous topics in this thread. As soon as a logi boat repairs someone on a criminal timer then the suggested nerfs happen. But then depending on the ship the other fleet assistance modules come up. A person could get very creative here. This topic is now getting lengthy but let me further clarify what I"m suggesting:

Make a global change where anyone trying to remote repair someone with a PVP timer has reduced cycle time, or can't repair as much on a gradual repair decrease. This is a GLOBAL thing for ALL logi boats. However, introduce a new class of "pvp" style logi boats. For example:

-Caldari PVP logi boat:
Caldari cruiser:
100% bonus to transfer range for remote shield and remote capacitor transmission modules per level
15% reduction in capacitor need for the activation of remote shield and remote capacitor transmission modules per level
Logistics:
50% bonus to range for remote ECCM modules per level
75% bonus to strength of remote ECCM modules per level
Role Bonus:
80% reduction in powergrid and CPU needs of remote shield and remote capacitor transmission modules
25% bonus to shield amount
50% bonus to gravimetric sensor strength

This is just an example. And please don't hate on it. My main point here is, if you are going to nerf logi, make the nerf apply to PVP ONLY. Leave PVE logistics alone. It's fine the way it is.

This Mittani post is considerably more well put together than anything posted on the forums so far.

Did anyone read this article? This is a very well written article.

I read it, and I think it's an interesting idea and a possibility. I disagree with the writer about the drone bays, however; I think the current drone bays are more than enough to repair ships in addition to the other effects.

The T2 logistics cruisers already do this. Gallente Onerios does remote tracking computers, Ammar Guardian does really spectacular cap transfer. I don't recall the secondary support of the other two, but they all do something besides repair, it's just overshadowed by their primary focus.

I am glad that you read it, I am just relieved that it offers the most "out of the box" solution presented thus far that I have read.

I can not reiterate enough the validity of this article, I would like everyone who reads this forum, to read that article. It is a very well expounded article.