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Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 4	Posted - 2015.09.10 07:08:53 - [1] - Quote It's been interesting to see it trade the web velocity bonus for a range bonus, get an 11th slot, fitting space, and a sweet nos bonus, but the other pirate frigates that have either been introduced or buffed seem to highlight the Cruor's weaknesses. Rather than talk about the other hulls here, I'm going to talk about my beef with this ship: Neuting range. I don't think it should have any sort of parity with a Sentinel, but a Cruor should follow the lines of the other Blood Raider ships, which includes the possibility for a bulky neuting fit. Can you do that? Yes, and here's an example of the kind of fitting I'm talking about -- [Cruor, Blood Raider Stereotype] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Ancillary Current Router II Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I It's got a number of concessions in fitting to make the PG and CPU work, but the point is that you CAN fit it up. The problem lies in the application. You are forced to fly at an opponent in order to be worth investing in the hull over a Hyena. Once you hit 17km, you enter the range where enemies will start applying anti-tackle modules onto your ship to peel you away. Ashimmu comparison- you're as slow as an Assault Frigate with this Cruor fit. Cruisers that web you before you land scram can peel you. Ashimmu often has dual webs and disruptor fitted, so an enemy can only "escape" if they are MUCH faster or have a scram, and even then they only "escape" to the point where their web range is shorter than yours, and you're pressuring their cap whenever you are around 12-13km from them. Cruor lacks CPU for a disruptor, and even if it had that CPU, it'd be hurting to fit a second nos which would take even more CPU and lower the overall neuting potential of the ship. I'm not asking for Cruor to become an Ashimmu - It has somewhat thin tank to try and pull off a similar effect, but it needs more range for its cap warfare. I'm asking for the bonus to strength to include range for cap warfare modules. You would get 11km meta4 neuts at the low end, and 17.8km a-type nos at the high end of things. In other words, you would have to shell out a lot of ISK and fitting space in order to have a little over half the range of Sentinel neuts, and nos only siphon around 40% as much as a neut on top of that. If you fit guns and have only 2 nos, then you get 14 GJ/s compared to a ghetto dual neut Tristan's 5w neuts doing 17 GJ/s or a triple neut Sentinel's 54 GJ/s. TL;DR: Cruor fit for cap warfare can get scramkited. Good Blood hulls don't have this weakness. Make Cruor's 17.5% neut/nos effectiveness bonus also include RANGE, and consider making the ship faster with plated fits. Fittings are tight but possible.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1639	Posted - 2015.09.10 08:09:36 - [2] - Quote cruor and ashimmu both feel a little underwhelming. mix of web range and nos just bleh. I like the long web on the cruor, but I feel like you can put a web on a target but are going to die trying to close in on it to apply damage/nos. not to mention you can get scram kited outside of your nos range. Ashimmu looks like it might work with a-type nos, I guess you can cheese a large nos onto an ashimmu, but that eats up most of your fitting options. bhaalgorn it works great thanks to 42km x-type nos. Or going full neuts with logis feeding cap and armor of course, but you have plenty of room to fit buffer. . @ChainsawPlankto
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 836	Posted - 2015.09.10 09:17:49 - [3] - Quote Sorry for being so blunt but that cruor does zero damage. Given enough time an Ibis can kill that. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1963	Posted - 2015.09.10 09:40:35 - [4] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: cruor and ashimmu both feel a little underwhelming. mix of web range and nos just bleh. I like the long web on the cruor, but I feel like you can put a web on a target but are going to die trying to close in on it to apply damage/nos. not to mention you can get scram kited outside of your nos range. Ashimmu looks like it might work with a-type nos, I guess you can cheese a large nos onto an ashimmu, but that eats up most of your fitting options. bhaalgorn it works great thanks to 42km x-type nos. Or going full neuts with logis feeding cap and armor of course, but you have plenty of room to fit buffer. . tl;dr first: People using these ships solo are doing it wrong. The ashimmus strength lays in the tank you can get on that thing, it's an absolutely brilliant fleet ship. Probably my favourite cruiser hull, and they are cheap too. It's a curse that just wont die. [Ashimmu, Oh god get it off] Damage Control II Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Corelum C-Type Energized Thermic Membrane Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Steel Plates II 50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Anti-EM Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2 74.5k EHP before boosts and heat. 945/12 seconds neuted from the neuts alone, also before heat. Change from 215m isk. If you're not worried about enemy neuts, trade the second booster for a web (and use the spare power to trade small nos to a medium neut), and you still have almost half an hour of cap with everything lit up. The biggest trouble with the cruor is the fitting is too hard to be practical, even with perfect skills.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8480	Posted - 2015.09.10 11:50:03 - [5] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Sorry for being so blunt but that cruor does zero damage. Given enough time an Ibis can kill that. That is why you have friends. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 342	Posted - 2015.09.10 14:23:11 - [6] - Quote afkalt wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: cruor and ashimmu both feel a little underwhelming. mix of web range and nos just bleh. I like the long web on the cruor, but I feel like you can put a web on a target but are going to die trying to close in on it to apply damage/nos. not to mention you can get scram kited outside of your nos range. Ashimmu looks like it might work with a-type nos, I guess you can cheese a large nos onto an ashimmu, but that eats up most of your fitting options. bhaalgorn it works great thanks to 42km x-type nos. Or going full neuts with logis feeding cap and armor of course, but you have plenty of room to fit buffer. . tl;dr first: People using these ships solo are doing it wrong. The ashimmus strength lays in the tank you can get on that thing, it's an absolutely brilliant fleet ship. Probably my favourite cruiser hull, and they are cheap too. It's a curse that just wont die. [Ashimmu, Oh god get it off] Damage Control II Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Corelum C-Type Energized Thermic Membrane Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Steel Plates II 50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Anti-EM Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2 74.5k EHP before boosts and heat. 945/12 seconds neuted from the neuts alone, also before heat. Change from 215m isk. If you're not worried about enemy neuts, trade the second booster for a web (and use the spare power to trade small nos to a medium neut), and you still have almost half an hour of cap with everything lit up. The biggest trouble with the cruor is the fitting is too hard to be practical, even with perfect skills. The problem that has is that it has 0 tank compared the other ships in the fleet, a sac tanks almost twice as much per guardian. Also it is totally useless in its role, the sacs each carry a medium neut and so fulfill the same role as you have much more of them so the extra neut amount doesnt even matter. You can also get a bs that tanks way more, warps just as fast with a full rack of heavy neuts, which are much more powerfull then eve bonused medium ones to break logi chains.
Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.09.10 15:17:40 - [7] - Quote afkalt wrote: tl;dr first: People using these ships solo are doing it wrong. --snip-- [Ashimmu, Oh god get it off] Damage Control II Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Corelum C-Type Energized Thermic Membrane Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Steel Plates II 50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Warp Scrambler II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Anti-EM Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2 --snip-- I don't really see a need for both cap boosters if you have medium nos, because you're basically capstable MWD off with such a fit: [Ashimmu, Blood Stereotypet] Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Corpum C-Type Medium Nosferatu Corpum C-Type Medium Nosferatu Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Anti-EM Pump II Since you work with smaller cycle times (especially with Talismans) you use less cap at any given moment, meaning enemy neuts are less effective against you because they end up wasting 90% of their power on an "empty" capacitor. If you lack perfect skills, I would swap Thermic Hardener to a passive Membrane to still be capstable. You're right with the tl;dr :P I mean, I love them and in some cases they hard counter ships, but people who aren't baited by the shiny realize they will lose and won't fight.
ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 941	Posted - 2015.09.10 15:22:49 - [8] - Quote Faction hardeners will fix your CPU problems... only a couple of mil each. Mine is quite similar :) No Worries
Reah Darknorth Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.09.11 01:41:10 - [9] - Quote I'd love to see this happen. With a 17.8km A-Type Nos would work perfectly with the range bonused webs. I might actually fly the stupid thing if this happened. Swap that 5m3 drone bay out for a bit more laser DPS and you got yourself a real pirate frigate.
Seraph IX Basarab Angry Dragons Black Legion. 707	Posted - 2015.09.11 02:01:32 - [10] - Quote The webs and neut/nos range should work together...not against one another. House of Black and White An ingame channel dedicated to more interesting ways to play

ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 941	Posted - 2015.09.11 08:19:39 - [11] - Quote If you give them neut range i fear they'll become overpowered.... Also it will be one less argument against sheld tanking it ... and that is just straight up wrong... No Worries
Igor Nappi Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 128	Posted - 2015.09.12 00:54:54 - [12] - Quote I think a lot of the issues with pirate ships and perhaps other ships in general is the fact that Guristas line-up is way overpowered. Strong bonuses to webs and other ewar are cool but don't really matter when you have ships with ~twice the tank and DPS with excellent application to pretty much anything. Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.09.12 05:19:08 - [13] - Quote ChromeStriker wrote: If you give them neut range i fear they'll become overpowered.... Also it will be one less argument against sheld tanking it ... and that is just straight up wrong... Prop+web+point means you'd rarely shield tank it unless special conditions where you don't need a point. If you truly are concerned with Nosferatu range, I am confident that it is possible to make it only increase neuting range in order to close the gap between its neut/nos ranges. Igor Nappi wrote: I think a lot of the issues with pirate ships and perhaps other ships in general is the fact that Guristas line-up is way overpowered. Strong bonuses to webs and other ewar are cool but don't really matter when you have ships with ~twice the tank and DPS with excellent application to pretty much anything. Guristas and Mordus are really strong right now. Orthrus stands to lose some PG and get its dmg bonus changed to RoF. In general I think that drones could use a rebalance with regards to projection and that such changes would help reduce the power of Guristas hulls. In other words, make drone control range dependent BOTH upon the EWAR drone skill (changed to 10km total) AND the hull being used: (This is just an example) Frigates: 10km control range base (20km before fittings) Destroyers get 15 -> (25) Cruisers: 25 -> (35) BC: 35 -> (45) BS: 50 -> (60) There'd have to be module/rig changes to accomodate this, ofc, but the general idea is to not have frig projection be 60km with no investment.
Titus Heldane Sleeper Insanity Wrong Hole. 21	Posted - 2015.09.12 09:41:49 - [14] - Quote the web range is amazing. why do you people keep fitting scrams on ships with 20k webs? heres my fits [Ashimmu, beams] Medium Armor Repairer II Heat Sink II Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates 10MN Afterburner II True Sansha Warp Disruptor Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M Corpum A-Type Medium Nosferatu Corpum A-Type Medium Nosferatu Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Infiltrator II x3 Acolyte II x2 webs and points out to 28k, 20k nos range. still has plenty of cap without nos if you dont run the repper. has range control over pretty much anything that isnt a MWD ashimmu with dual webs and can apply out to 47k with aurora. onto the cruor. [Cruor, Kite] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste 5MN Microwarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Caldari Navy Stasis Webifier Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet S [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Small Focused Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet S Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Hobgoblin II x1 like a slicer, but with a 24k web. has 21k optimal with IN ultra and 140 dps. i dont know why you would want neuts or nos on a kiting fit, either go brawling with some neuts or stay at range and use your web. heres a brawling fit [Cruor, Dual Rep] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Corpii A-Type Small Armor Repairer Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Hobgoblin II x1 cap stable, 120 dps out to 11k with scorch. you can switch the ancil out for another deadspace rep if you use a pg implant.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 344	Posted - 2015.09.12 14:30:47 - [15] - Quote Expect that you have no dps in that cruor, a slicer gets 220dps at that range with beams.
Reah Darknorth Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.09.13 02:31:48 - [16] - Quote That drone bay though. Deploy Warrior II, need to get some DPS out of this thing.
Dato Koppla Kiwis In Space No Points Necessary 874	Posted - 2015.09.13 06:29:55 - [17] - Quote Titus Heldane wrote: [Cruor, Dual Rep] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Corpii A-Type Small Armor Repairer Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Hobgoblin II x1 cap stable, 120 dps out to 11k with scorch. you can switch the ancil out for another deadspace rep if you use a pg implant. I was waiting for the classic Cruor shitfit to show it's ugly face. This fit was very popular when the Cruor was newly buffed and everyone was crazy about the 'it's cap stable!!1!!!1!' factor. However you can only run your reps so as long as your opponent has cap and when they run dry, you run dry. It also does little damage and the tank isn't great, so in practice what happens is you cap the opponent out quite fast, which causes you to cap out really fast too, and with no cap booster to fuel your reps you get killed easily, especially by ships that don't need cap to run their weapons. Honestly I feel like the Cruor is the weakest pirate frig for solo work. I'd take a Comet over a Cruor anyday for solo. However it does have some use in a gang setting for long range webs and neuts I suppose, but I've never really seen anyone make good use of it in that way. Some kind of bonus to the range of the neuts would really help it immensely.
W0lf Crendraven Welfcorp 345	Posted - 2015.09.13 13:27:23 - [18] - Quote A sentinel is a better cruor.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 890	Posted - 2015.09.14 14:39:22 - [19] - Quote My god you people with all the shitfits just embarrass yourselves. Stop posting this I have no idea who started posting fits on eveo forums but it was a terrible idea. The blood raider ship line is largely bad because it has bonuses and attributes all over the place without a coherent concept of the intended ship role. CCP need to cut one of the bonuses and make it good at a single thing. As it is right now the ship line lacks damage, projection, true webbing range, the only thing its good at is very situational and thats heavy neuting. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.09.14 17:29:43 - [20] - Quote Quote: W0lf Crendraven]A sentinel is a better cruor. Baali Tekitsu wrote: bonuses and attributes all over the place This is the heart of the matter when it comes to Blood Raider ships. They're not fast, they're not super durable (granted, certainly more durable than most vanilla t1 ships...), they don't have the range of most other ships doing one of their only roles (NOmen, Curse, Huginn) and the only unique thing they really have going for them is their nos bonus. People have pined for the Blood ships to become drone-focused rather than having to fit turrets (and thus have one less thing to do, fittings wise), and they did get a few more drones but nothing huge like a dmg/HP bonus. I'm still waiting for other proposals.

Reah Darknorth Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.09.15 19:49:02 - [21] - Quote I just don't see the point in the neut and nos bonus unless the range of them was made to work with the range of the webs, like if the Cruor could potentially have that 20km A-type nos. On the other hand if they are laser boats they really should change the Cruor's 5m3 drone bay and translate it into additional turret dps. IMO this is a much needed change for the Cruor. It would make it a little more workable, for sure. I think they need to stick with the current design of the ships, which is long range webs, as well as strong energy draining. I don't think these ships should be drone boats, because that would infringe on the territory of the pilgrim, curse and sentinel a little. Granted , the blood raider ships would still have their own styles with the long range webs, but still I think that being an energy draining, long range webbing laser boat differentiates these ships and really gives them their own niche. I think the nos range needs to work with the web range, that way ships like the Cruor could really utilize the energy draining capabilities without committing to scram range. The Ashimmu has decent nos range if you pay for an A-type it's 19.5km but since neuts and nos don't benefit from fleet links there is no way to get an inch further than that so I think the Ashimmu could also use some neut and nos range. Maybe even a bit more web range on these, too. I mean a Rapier can web overheated to past 93km for crying out loud. The Ashimmu (and Cruor, and Bhaalgorn) can only web out to 46.9km overheated as far as I know. If that could get stretched a few km it would make a difference. The Orthrus can point your ass at 70km overheated and scram you at 26km. Idunno
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 646	Posted - 2015.09.16 03:14:56 - [22] - Quote I rarely see Cruors in lowsec; probably the least common pirate frigate. The Ashimmu has a niche for small gang combat, specifically as an integral part of any gate camp - long range webs off an extremely tanky hull supplemented by the cap warfare bonus. The Ashimmu is the ship I dread seeing when I jump into a gate camp. Aside from that, it doesn't seem to do much. I'm afraid to have CCP tweak it because lord knows the last thing we need are more OP pirate frigates and cruisers.
Kibitt Kallinikov Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 8	Posted - 2015.09.16 05:43:56 - [23] - Quote It seems that the most popular idea is that the Blood Ships should be able to use their neut/nos to the extent of their webs, but there is some fear that they'll become OP. Since the discussion has included the Ashimmu, I'll talk about it as well. Ashimmu/Cruor don't have the option that Curse/Sentinel do: drones allow Curse/Sentinel to spend 1-2 low slots in order to get DPS and their projection is 60km with zero investment. You directly lose neuting power and tank in order to fit DPS on Blood Raider vessels, and even then the range is very limited. After further discussion, I think two changes would help push Blood Raider ships into a better position: 1. More cap warfare range for both Cruor and Ashimmu, but with a larger bonus going to neuts as nos have deadspace variants with a lot of extra range. Cruor -> 75% bonus to energy neutralizer range (11 - 13km), 50% bonus to energy nosferatu range (9.9 - 15km) Ashimmu -> 37.5% bonus to energy neutralizer range (17.3 - 20km), 25% bonus to energy nosferatu range (15.75 - 24.3km) Goal: Increase the synergy of the web range bonus and energy neut/nos bonuses without stretching into the role of other ships or competing in the same ranges. With both hulls, it reduces the amount of time spent in transit and allows more freedom to dictate range within web range. Remove tendency for neuting Cruor to sit helpless at 7-11km in scram range. 2. Stronger damage bonus for both Cruor and Ashimmu- BOTH (100% currently) -->> 120% bonus to energy turret damage. [Overall, it is +10% laz0r DPS] Cruor -> Drone(s) removed. Goal: Make the DPS competitive and perceived as a good tradeoff for the extra neuting power without adding any other application bonuses, to avoid stepping on the toes of kiters such as Slicer, Omen Navy Issue, etc. and also without adding free DPS in the form of drones that do not require the fitting investment that lazers do. My concerns -- the Ashimmu might gain momentum as a kiter. While the Phantasm enjoys more DPS and (generally) sig tank in the form of a strong AB, the Ashimmu may prove to be a strong competitor due to its web bonus and neuting ability to shed light tackle. Cruor might become very difficult to fight as frigates don't generally have cap boosters, meaning only capless drone/missile boats would engage it.


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