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Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:20:00 - [1] My understanding of carriers is that they are intended to be used on the front lines of pvp in small gang style engagements. The attributes of the ships and their bonuses seem to support this. However I have not seem many (any?) carriers deployed in this fashion. After looking at how cyno fields worked and what carriers could do I decided not to train for them at all on my main, I just dont see the point, but I did start training for them on my alt. I am now close to combat capable with my alt and I am looking at how to effectively field my carrier. I have deployed a few cynos to help friends and corpmates move capships so I have a limited understanding of the system. It is also my understanding that currently the cyno fields freeze your ship in position and prevent it from jumping/docking for the full 10 minutes but do allow you to run mods. This is also aparently how the system is designed to run. My problem with this is that I'm not sure what my motivation is to waste a pilot in gang on cyno generating. In any kind of fight where a carrier might actually be needed to even the odds the cyno pilot will be instantly ganked. Now, an alt could be used to deploy the cyno and then allowed to die but that still wastes a pilot. The chances of running into a situation where you need a carrier while roaming around is pretty slim, so using one pilot to sit in his carrier and run an cyno alt the whole night is a waste. If CCP want to see carriers used in frontline combat then I think they need to drastically reduce the difficulties in deploying the ships. This doesn't even begin to address the glaring flaws and lack of balance among the carriers but it at least allows them to be used as they were designed. Cyno fields need to lose their penalties or the system needs to be reworked completely to allow the cyno to be closed manually by the generating pilot. So, what are your thoughts on reworking the cyno system to make capital ships easier to deploy for small gangs in order to use them as they were intended? ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:39:00 - [2] actually if u look at the ship stats u might change ur mind into thinking they are designed more as a forward command post they are able to carry an assortment of ships,equipment etc and can assign fighters to other ships. they can use capital transfer/repair/boosting etc arrays and all this is aimed at being a support craft not a front line vessel like 'battle'ships etc. they are 'carriers' desgined to carry stuff although with the hp buff on them u will see more of them in combat these days. DE
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:16:00 - [3] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 18/12/2006 01:17:53 Originally by: DarkElf actually if u look at the ship stats u might change ur mind into thinking they are designed more as a forward command post they are able to carry an assortment of ships,equipment etc and can assign fighters to other ships. they can use capital transfer/repair/boosting etc arrays and all this is aimed at being a support craft not a front line vessel like 'battle'ships etc. they are 'carriers' desgined to carry stuff although with the hp buff on them u will see more of them in combat these days. DE The armor reps and tanking bonuses make me think the carriers are designed to be shot at. If you look at the stats you will see they are actually very well suited for frontline pvp to support battleships. You can even read the description of the Thanatos and reach that conclusion. The purpose of this thread isnt to discuss if carriers are intended for frontline pvp or not because its obvious that they are, the purpose of the thread is to determine if cyno fields are worth the trouble to bring in a capital ship. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:25:00 - [4] The way CCP progressed in making cynos different is just plain odd. - First, you're stuck 10 minute, can't move, can't dock and you can't activate anything. - Next change, Oh now you can activate modules but you're stuck still. - Next change, Now you can change session (dock/jump) and you can activate modules but somehow the whole EVE universe gets cluttered by Cynos bugged up on overviews and stay there till downtime. (even tho they're unusuable) - Next change, You can activate modules, you're stuck for 10 minutes again. Back to step 2 of the amazing cyno progression.
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski The way CCP progressed in making cynos different is just plain odd. - First, you're stuck 10 minute, can't move, can't dock and you can't activate anything. - Next change, Oh now you can activate modules but you're stuck still. - Next change, Now you can change session (dock/jump) and you can activate modules but somehow the whole EVE universe gets cluttered by Cynos bugged up on overviews and stay there till downtime. (even tho they're unusuable) - Next change, You can activate modules, you're stuck for 10 minutes again. Back to step 2 of the amazing cyno progression. Exactly, and why bother going through all that trouble to get a carrier on the field when putting the carrier pilot in a domi or mega does basically the same thing anyway? ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:49:00 - [6] I've been thinking exactly the same thing. Essentially now if you want to jump a carrier into a system with some hostiles in it, you need something that can tank a gang squad to run the cyno. It does seem kinda stupid. Minmatar: Train two "primary" systems, taking twice the time, for 1/2 the benefit. It's a thing of beauty.
Ryysa Total Failure	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:43:00 - [7] Edited by: Ryysa on 18/12/2006 03:43:58 carriers aren't really supposed to be solo pwnmobiles, no it's not obvious that they are. There's a reason they have maintenance bays etc, you can just jump a carrier into a system and deploy an operation with ships being stored inside... Fly down to a hotzone with inties with say 5 people, open cyno, jump in carrier [into a nearby non-hostile system], swap to hacs, go kill stuff... That aside, the fact that you have to have a suicide cyno alt is kind of silly right now, something needs to be done about it... And it's true, it's impossible to jump a carrier into a hostile system unless you have a pos up or huge support fleet at the jumpin point. All about target jamming
Sa'Harta	Posted - 2006.12.18 04:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Sa''Harta on 18/12/2006 04:36:40 Talk about wanting things made easy for yourself.. my god.. lol. I dont think they are made for any sort of small scale stuff. You can get the job done just fine without it in your roaming gangs.
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.18 04:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Sa'Harta Edited by: Sa''Harta on 18/12/2006 04:36:40 Talk about wanting things made easy for yourself.. my god.. lol. I dont think they are made for any sort of small scale stuff. You can get the job done just fine without it in your roaming gangs. That's bollox. No one wants it "easy", but come on. As it stands, taking a carrier into a hostile area means a 99% chance of the cyno creator dying. People keep going on about pussies in their carrier not going into front-lines....well it's damn hard to get a carrier onto the front lines in a lot of cases.
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 08:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 18/12/2006 03:43:58 carriers aren't really supposed to be solo pwnmobiles, no it's not obvious that they are. There's a reason they have maintenance bays etc, you can just jump a carrier into a system and deploy an operation with ships being stored inside... Fly down to a hotzone with inties with say 5 people, open cyno, jump in carrier [into a nearby non-hostile system], swap to hacs, go kill stuff... That aside, the fact that you have to have a suicide cyno alt is kind of silly right now, something needs to be done about it... And it's true, it's impossible to jump a carrier into a hostile system unless you have a pos up or huge support fleet at the jumpin point. I didnt say anything about being a solo pwnmobile. I'd just like to be able to use them in their intended role, which contrary to popular belief is not sitting in a pos and hauling fuel for dreads. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
Saerid Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.18 08:57:00 - [11] The Establishment guys come to mind, reading that description. They seem to be using capital ships as sort of mobile reserve to pull in when they run into a target harder than what can be killed with a couple recons (or just the plain ol' tackling + cynoing bait crane). It is a tactic that's already in use, just rarish. Otherwise.. could use a reduction in the time you spend stuck. Might even end up seeing more cynos opened in locations other than POS.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.18 09:00:00 - [12] Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 09:05:00 - [13] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 18/12/2006 09:06:40 Originally by: Saerid The Establishment guys come to mind, reading that description. They seem to be using capital ships as sort of mobile reserve to pull in when they run into a target harder than what can be killed with a couple recons (or just the plain ol' tackling + cynoing bait crane). It is a tactic that's already in use, just rarish. Otherwise.. could use a reduction in the time you spend stuck. Might even end up seeing more cynos opened in locations other than POS. The Establishment is also using a mothership, not a carrier. They have devised a good tactic within the game mechanics but I think that the difficulty in deploying carriers in smallscale pvp is too great. The number of carriers you see used in their intended way is a good indication of that. Id like to see the stuck time completely removed from cynos, I dont really see what the point is in having it. It just prevents small gangs from using capships and encourages camping in poses and blobbing. Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. I'm not sure you could miss the point any more if you tried. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
Jade Gunsmith	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Levin Cavil Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. This would be a perfect example of how terrible the current system is. If it requires infiltrating any corp you might ever see in order ot effectively field capships then there is a lot of work to be done. You don't have to infiltrate the corp, I've even seen pirates in 0.4 do it. You take a T2 hauler and set it up with warp disruptors, fly around and find a target. once they try to gank you you scramble the target and pop the cyno. Carrier jumps in, delegates fighters so they can be used instantly and begins remote shield repping the hauler. The hunter just became the hunted.
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Jade Gunsmith Originally by: Levin Cavil Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. This would be a perfect example of how terrible the current system is. If it requires infiltrating any corp you might ever see in order ot effectively field capships then there is a lot of work to be done. You don't have to infiltrate the corp, I've even seen pirates in 0.4 do it. You take a T2 hauler and set it up with warp disruptors, fly around and find a target. once they try to gank you you scramble the target and pop the cyno. Carrier jumps in, delegates fighters so they can be used instantly and begins remote shield repping the hauler. The hunter just became the hunted. Yea, Or we could look at the story in a realistic way. - Take your T2 hauler and set it up with warp disruptors. - Fly around and find a target - Pop the Cyno and start taking alot of damage. - Carrier jumps in, while you die. - Carrier locks you (taking forever) you die. - Carrier tries to lock whatever is shooting you (if you haven't died yet) and fails to hold it down and you kill nothing.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:40:00 - [16] A lot of people have non-combat alts on separate accounts. These alts will never see combat as they lack the skills, but it takes very little in the way of skills to field a cynosural generator. You can have one of these alts--which would never be contributing to the gang's combat ability, anyway--in gang and with the group. In short, having a dedicated cyno alt controlled by one of the capital pilots is generally how most people field capitals in the middle of a fight. The other time it would be useful is when the character who would be activating the cyno is less valuable as another member of a gang than a carrier or dread would be. For instance, if you already have a gang of ten short-range battleships and five support one more support craft is inherently less valuable than a carrier unless the enemy gang consists of mostly frigs. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:46:00 - [17] Yeh that sounds more like it happens. Tbh CCP have made Cyno-ing a strict "suicide-alt-in-probe" thing. It's silly, pointless and cumbersome. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:48:00 - [18] I was getting happy with the new 800k Alts before they got released on TQ, If i recall correctly one of them could have Electronic 5 right away.. It was too good to be true and you cannot do it.. So pretty much, it takes a big 5-6 days to get electronic 5 on a 800k Alt you make up (caldari one starts with Electronic 4).. + around 12m worth of modules + skills for it.. Worth it? Yea. Should it be this way because CCP got too lazy to come up with a better solution? No.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.18 10:57:00 - [19] I agree that the ten-minute duration on cynos is ridiculous, especially when combined with immobility. It's a time sink that the game could do without; it really sucks when you only have one account. Optimally, you'd be able to fit a cyno field generator on a combat ship, activate it with something like a 30-second duration, then be free so you could move and fight. It would remove the necessity of using alts for the task, and allow the gang member who's fielding the cyno to actually have fun instead of sitting there helpless, while still having the drawbacks of reducing the combat power of the ship and making them temporarily immobile. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:14:00 - [20] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 18/12/2006 11:15:57 Originally by: Levin Cavil Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. This would be a perfect example of how terrible the current system is. If it requires infiltrating any corp you might ever see in order ot effectively field capships then there is a lot of work to be done. No need to infiltrate anything, the alt is just used so that you dont have to waste a useful combat pilot and dont have to risk becoming a major sitting duck. Simply buy a bunch of frigates, cyno gens and clones for the alt and ignore it once you activate the cyno. I do agree the cyno system sucks though, hence why a lot people use expendable alts for them. The recons of course are quite due to their bonuses but they're simply not worth the isk loss. My cyno alt costs 7 mill isk when it goes pop, my arazu goes for +150 mill. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Get Cyno alt -> Get your gang onto enemy gang -> Get Cyno alt onto enemy gang -> Activate Cyno once enemies are tackled -> Deploy carrier on their face -> Lots of explosions. The corollary to this is: Get cyno alt -> Engage enemy gang -> Enemy deploys cyno alt on your gang and jumps in carrier -> Warp cyno alt in and activate -> Jump in Ze Dreadz! -> Even bigger explosions. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Camael Kuro Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:24:00 - [22] Yes, if you use a disposable Cyno alt, it's fine. If you use a small ship like a probe, you can also fit about 20-25 replacement Cyno ships in one carrier's ship hangar. You just have to restrict using the carrier to worthwhile fights because deploying it will tend to cost 5 mil a pop (the blown up cyno module) and try and make sure that the pod of the cyno alt survives, so you can re-fit it from the carrier straight away rather than coming back from the next station.
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Camael Kuro Yes, if you use a disposable Cyno alt, it's fine. If you use a small ship like a probe, you can also fit about 20-25 replacement Cyno ships in one carrier's ship hangar. You just have to restrict using the carrier to worthwhile fights because deploying it will tend to cost 5 mil a pop (the blown up cyno module) and try and make sure that the pod of the cyno alt survives, so you can re-fit it from the carrier straight away rather than coming back from the next station. We all know how to deploy carriers now, the problem is that using the cyno alt means you either have one person toting a cyno alt around that my never get used or you waste a pilot on a cyno ship that may never get used. Either way you aer wasting resources that could be better spent on other roles. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:38:00 - [24] The very fact that it takes a high-slot is a large disadvantage in combat as it is. Therefore it's not like any ship can field one and be as good as before. And that's before we even get onto Force Recons. Ignoring the horrible bug that means you can't fit both, what use is a cyno-bonus on a ship that costs 100x or more a frigate, and yet has the same chance of survival? To do it properly, cynos need to be dropped and forgotten, the ship then taking off. The fact that the carrier has a while whilst cap recharges and it aligns for warp or whatever already means any force warping to the cyno has an advantage.
Kiyano	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:39:00 - [25] What we need is a new cyno module for ships that is faster use, but only for Carriers. It would give them easier deployment and more incentive to be active in the front lines.
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:42:00 - [26] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 18/12/2006 12:49:07 Originally by: Kiyano What we need is a new cyno module for ships that is faster use, but only for Carriers. It would give them easier deployment and more incentive to be active in the front lines. Not a terrible solution but I'm not sure why the cyno ship ever needs to be frozen in place for 10 minutes. Seems to me that itd be much easier if they just removed the freezing thing from cynos completely, the highslot and cargo space are a large penalty already and I can't think of a good reason to add anything more. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
Altai Saker Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:50:00 - [27] I agree with Levin on this one, cynos are just too cumbersome to see real use by small corps... It's just easier to bring another battleship, rather than waste 2 accounts on 1 cyno alt and 1 guy in a carrier whose stuck 15 jumps back waiting for you to find a larger gang... Anyway Cynoing being ridiculous also doesn't do anything to address the fact that carriers are WAY too easy to disable. 1 Lachesis and your carrier is now a paperweight... stupid http://www.omniscient-order.com/
Ange1 Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.12.18 13:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Ange1 on 18/12/2006 13:05:32 As The Establishment's Carrier fleet is starting to grow, we are starting to use them in conjunction with the Mothership in combat. Its difficult, but by no means impossible to use this tactic of Capital backup against blobs effectively and we are continuing to use this tactic, learn from it and adapt accordingly. We've found a Carrier thats being covered by a Mothership is more effective in front-line combat, as the Mothership can deal with any immediate EW threats to the Carriers, allowing the Carriers to do their thing alongside. Its allowing us to engage fleets in far greater numbers than us, much larger than anything most corps our size could possibly hope to engage head on. But, Cyno's are a pain to use. Often our Cyno ship will die in a combat jump, so we will use an expendable ship to do this. However, there are future things we wish to try to make the Cyno pilot less expendable. Personally, they should REALLY fix the Cyno/Cloak bug... The Establishment is at your service...
Levin Cavil Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:58:00 - [29] I don't mean to say its impossible to deploy capital ships on the frontlines of PvP, I'm just saying that the reason it is rearely done is because the mechanic is so cumbersome its not worth doing. ---------- Eve is balanced: Caldari have to train Rails Minmatar have to train Missiles Gallente have to train Drones Amarr have to train Caldari
Denga Vulture The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:22:00 - [30] Shouldn¦t be the question more: Do Carriers really have to use a cyno ? I agree that Titans, Dreads and Motherships need a Cyno ... but a carrier ? Imho it has to operate in the frontlines, as a worthful logistic, able to defend itself against enemy BSs with its fighter. I have Drone Interfacing and BS at V. But i really dunno to train the last skills to carrier, cos i dont think its fun to play with this cyno system, although i have an alt able to place a cyno.

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