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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
   |
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:18:21 -
[1] - Quote
Anneka Rice wrote:Nope Shield caps don't need them. shield caps all ready tank way more than armor and for the most part have more EHP so why do we need to change that?
all shield capitals? are you sure about that? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 18:53:43 -
[2] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Rowells wrote:Anneka Rice wrote:Nope Shield caps don't need them. shield caps all ready tank way more than armor and for the most part have more EHP so why do we need to change that? all shield capitals? are you sure about that? The Caldari ones tank more than the Amarr ones (tank bonus's) and the Minmatar ones have more ehp than the Gallente ones (support/DPS bonus's) so yes seems fine to me. Shield caps are harder to fit, armor fits can be done on the cheap were as shield needs isk to make them worth it.. but when you don't fit your capital ship like a scrub like its a T1 cruiser hull they are very good. Phoenix is the highest tanking dread and also the best at blaping right now. The nag is used alot in WH space with both armor and shield fits, Chimera Has the largest Active tank in the game and can have cap stable tanks above 30k dps if fitted right and 60k+ Burst tanks. Wyvern has the 2nd largest EHP's after the Leviathan both of which are more than any thing else in the game. Levi has coolest DD in the game now and is also 2nd fastest after the rag, the rag haveing the best DD for killing armor supers is the fastest and also has more EHP than one of the other Armor titans. Nidhoggur is the best at RR'ing (quickly saving something like a pos) and has pretty much same tank as a nice fit archon if you spend some isk on it. and the Hel's are the only thing that can get close to a gang of wyverns in terms of active tanking each other while also been the fastest caps in the game. So erm yer We don't need your help CCP plez don't mess with us.....
It is true that most (ill take your word on the thanny niddy comparison) have better base tanks. That being said, once you go beyond that into links and and inplants, the difference drastically shifts. It goes from small to moderate differences to vastly different situations. The potential max tank on an archon is vastly superior to the chimera, even after heat.
I wouldn't be all to adverse to shield capitals losing a bit of hp from certain areas to justify allowing proper implant usage. Either that or armor tanks becoming less reliant on the bonuses from implants and links and buffing the base.
The main issue being (imo) shield fits having less options to specialize in their strengths compared to armor specializing in theirs. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:38:12 -
[3] - Quote
Anneka Rice wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:Im sure shield capitals are far superior to armor, thats why your alliance use armor to keep it interesting :P
Quick look at KB show PL lost 4 armor dreads this month (including a phoenix) and 1 shield fit phoenix. Clear favor for armor over shield for capital use. PL Picked Armor supers and caps because in 2010/2011 our two most used fleet ships were both armor so it was decided at that point to have an armor super fleet so there was an escalation path from subs to caps to supers that all use the same command ships and stuff. then we invented slowcats and as our supers were mostly armor we used armor carriers... we do have a shield slowcat fleet just like we have a shield super and titan fleet but it takes time to build. but as of now we are about 70% armor and 30% shield so we can now escalate both armor and to some extent shield at this point.
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that armor supers are proliferated far more across the entirety of eve. Or the fact that (unless they have changed drastically recently) the numbers of either amarr or gallente supers individually outnumber the number of caldari and minmatar combined. Nope, has nothing to do with the balls-deep tank you can pull with slaves.
But that's besides the point, since I doubt any super pilots would be interested in a crystal set for their shield boosting wyvern or hel. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:40:54 -
[4] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:You say that but shield Moros are a thing.... What is a shield cap and not a shield cap?
You would be comparing what the ship excels or specializes in. Arguably ambiguous with certain ships (looking at you minmatar).
If we were to compare things like shield moroses, we need to compare them to things like armor pheonixes. Or at first, to their own fitting options. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 14:06:51 -
[5] - Quote
Tappits wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm inclined to believe PL when it comes to cap/super theorycraft tbh. They say shield work better but keep increasing their armor capital numbers. If shields were realy as good as they say there is no way they would stick to armor for so many years. So if we trust the theorycrafters in PL, armor capital is the way to go! How can we swap now? like really how... do you know some one who would like to swap 2000 armor caps 400 armor supers and 150 armor titans for shield ones......if you can find some one who is willing to swap convo me. you have no idea wtf you are on about so plz stfu. Shield supers might be better but when you have one of the largest super fleets in the game anyway it makes no sence to swap over for the limited gains you would get and the way it is the best way round to have it (as we will all ways have armor supers anyway because people like the nyx and the iron man aeon's ) is the have more of the weaker ones (i.e armor) and less of the stronger shield ones. But this is all totally off topic anyway because Supers don't active tank nor need crystal sets.. Shield caps are balanced fine were they are now all we need is a resign for people to use caps for sov and we all gravy
I might be more willing to believe that, if it weren't the exact same scenario for pretty much every other super fleet in the game. I imagine someone out there runs a shield-heavy doctrine, but I haven't seen it before.
The bonuses from armor implants can be extremely powerful, flipping the overtanked shield cap on its head. And that really helps with rr fleets that use buffer more heavily. I can definitely see the base numbers for shields being tweaked before a change like what is suggested. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2734
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 20:53:01 -
[6] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not.
No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2735
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:58:39 -
[7] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Rowells wrote:Xequecal wrote:Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not. No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank. E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though. An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules.
I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though.
But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2735
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:20:48 -
[8] - Quote
Anneka Rice wrote:Rowells wrote:Xequecal wrote:Rowells wrote:Xequecal wrote:Shield caps have more EHP than armor caps even WITH full Slaves plugged in. Absolutely not. No, they don't. Go ahead and show the capital that doesn't outclass its counterpart/contender when it gets a ~50% bonus to its tank. E: Recorrection, jumped the gun. Still a dank tank this phoenix though. An A-type EANM increases armor EHP by 54.77%. An overloaded A-type invulnerability field (yes, overloading is relevant, because you can OL an A-type for about 20 minutes) increases shield EHP by 128.57%. The shield tanker has more EHP than the slaved-up armor tanker upon fitting the first resist module, let alone any additional modules. I'm not seeing what you're getting at here. I'm not using an EANM on this fit and itsoutpacing the chimera still. Same for their super cousins. Haven't played with the Titans yet though. But, like tippits said, this is about the active tanking aspect. Which I am very willing to admit, shouldn't simply be an allowance of the bonus to work on capital modules without other tweaks or changes. For me, it's mostly about expanding the use of the implants so that it is not simply excluded from an entire class. And I honestly think the best solution would be to modify both armor and shield active tanks so that, like the buffer tanks, there is less broad of a distinction before adding variables and allow it to expand better as it goes. And with the capital rebalance coming (soon(?)), this is a great opportunity to smooth out the inconsistencies and whacky patterns as much as possible. So because you cannot work out how to make Shield tanks better than armor tanks you would like CCP to make implants work to help? Is that what you are saying? because i have no clue what any of you are going on about other than you don't seem to be able to use EFT or have no clue how to fit capital ships or both. i mean i don't get it the only thing i can think of is non of you used capitals very offten or something so you don't know how they work or something because its pretty simple stuff. on everything from Frigs to Dreads... All active tanked armor ships use less cap then there Shield counterparts but shield use more cap but can tank more... and because shield active tanking implants don't work on caps they have ALLREADY been balanced to still be better.... Yes on some setups Armor with slaves will have more EHP than shield but the shield active tanks are still better which ever way you look at it.... (and in some cases shield EHP is also more (or very very close) to armor on a few ships
You have somehow missed all the points I made in that post, and managed to infuse something that I never said, nor do I think I implied. Congratulations. |
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