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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26341
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:07:28 -
[1] - Quote
As an '07 player, I've been given somewhere in the region of 7M SP for free GÇö if a new player gets 350k more from the start (that are put into sensible skills), then booo hoooo.
GǪI'll suppose I'll take those free SP as compensation for not having skilled Tippia for a year because I ran out of interesting skills to train.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26342
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Posted - 2015.09.24 18:23:51 -
[2] - Quote
GǪand the rest of us are saying that, on the scale of things, the 6 days worth of training is nothing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26345
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:14:07 -
[3] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: It has everything to do with this discussion, cause the point is valid. 400k SP can be lost over the time of 5months, if you haven't optimized your attributes for perfect skill time, forgot to update the queue or not being in a clone with attribute implants.
As a point of comparison, the 350k SP gap is the difference you see between having +5 implants rather than +3s for 81 days.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:23:18 -
[4] - Quote
Sharps wrote:But seriously what is the game-breaking reason we can't simply give 350k to everyone and solve this? Because there's quite literally nothing to solve.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
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Posted - 2015.09.24 19:49:57 -
[5] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:400,000 - 50,000 = 350,000 SP
350,000 SP / 2000 SP per hour / 24 hours = 7.29 days Do you realise how stupid that argument is? "I've been playing EVE for 4 years, 1 week is nothing, ha ha ha!" I know this is a foreign idea, but not everyone has been playing EVE for years. Once you've played for 5 months, it's well within the realm of how much you may have missed/earned extra.
It's a rounding error, even for you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26349
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:10:13 -
[6] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:And it's not just the SP amount, it's the actual principle. You still haven't answered my point about how if a skill is removed from the game, normally CCP reimburse the SP to all who trained it, so why not in this occasion? What principle? No skill is being removed. There is nothing to reimburse.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26350
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Posted - 2015.09.24 20:45:15 -
[7] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:So a skill that no longer has to be trained is not the same as removing that level of the skill from the game? The skill is still not removed. At most, you might see it as a change in prerequisites.
So no. A skill remaining in the game is not the same thing as removing the skill from the game, and as such, there is nothing to reimburse.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26351
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Posted - 2015.09.24 22:21:13 -
[8] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Terrible attempt at an analogy. It would be more like "Sir, the car we sold you 5 months ago has been deemed unsafe due to a fault with this component. Please bring your vehicle in to have the faulty part replaced free of charge." That would indeed be a terrible attempt at an analogy since that's not even remotely the same as what's going on here.
Nothing is being retracted or removed or found at fault GÇö they're offering a new baseline package, and if you're close enough to be a new buyer, you get that package. If you're too old to be counted as new, you got (and keep) the original package.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26352
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Posted - 2015.09.24 22:31:24 -
[9] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:If there was nothing wrong with the old amount of SP that new players started with then why have they changed it? Because a better baseline package is assumed to be more attractive to new customers.
That's why your analogy was so stupid: you tried to paint it as a manufacturing flaw, rather than a different sales pitch.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
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Posted - 2015.09.25 06:32:03 -
[10] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Still haven't seen a valid argument as to why CCP can't give everyone the SP increase besides me being a salty, entitled goon. GJ eve forums. Have you tried reading?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
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Posted - 2015.09.25 07:12:54 -
[11] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Why should it matter the SP amount? If CCP are willing to refund millions of SP then they should do the same for a few thousand SP. There is nothing to refund. Nothing is being removed.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
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Posted - 2015.09.25 07:17:45 -
[12] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:How about you explain to me the difference between having a skill removed and the bonuses given to players, and a skill being given to all new players from day 1? I can't wait to hear your reasoning here. The difference is that in the first case, the skill is removed whereas in the second, it is not.
I don't care how strong your autism is. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
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Posted - 2015.09.25 07:31:55 -
[13] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:I'll repeat myself. The training time for the skills that you will now be starting with, has being removed from the game. That's not a repetition, but it yields the same answer: the skill has not been removed; there is nothing to reimburse.
Someone else is given something; this entitles you to nothing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26364
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Posted - 2015.09.25 08:27:39 -
[14] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:they have now gotten the same SP as a player who had paid for month. So all these new characters are getting like half a month free of SP gain They have a very odd moon where you live.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
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Posted - 2015.09.25 11:48:54 -
[15] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:It's the principle. What principle? The only ones who are even remotely negatively affected by this are characters made in somewhere in the 15GÇô21 day span preceding the patch, who might conceivably come out with less total SP than they'd had under the new system. For anyone else, it has no effect or impact on them.
Quote:You can look at it the other way, if it's such a small amount of SP, then what's the problem in reimbursing everyone? Nothing is removed. There is nothing to reimburse, especially not to everyone.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26367
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Posted - 2015.09.25 12:13:12 -
[16] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:350k SP to everyone, hurts no one. Arbitrary handouts for no reason hurts everyone with the precedent it sets.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26371
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Posted - 2015.09.25 13:15:34 -
[17] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Precedent: The existing precedent is already being broken in Vanguard. The one which governed all generated accounts uptil now. Which precedent is this and how is it broken? There have been four of five different GÇ£status quo:sGÇ¥, none of which have remained intact. This is the first time it's moving in this direction and affected this particular group. Given the group that is affected, something is needed to smooth out the gap that the change creates GÇö a gap that simply does not exist outside of this group.
This is something vastly different from the unprecedented and completely unmotivated notion of just handing out 350k SP to everyone for no reason.
Quote:Arbitrarity: However, if this is not added to all characters, it becomes arbitrary from the perspective of the remainder of characters not included in the change. Quite the opposite. It is completely arbitrary if other characters get it because there's no reason to give them any SP. It's the lack of reason that makes it arbitrary.
Quote:Excluding existing characters from the boost, exacerbates the precedential breach, and its arbitrariness in equity between characters created before or after the change. GǪexcept that there is no broken precedent and no arbitrariness. It only applies to a very specific and clearly defined group for a very specific and clearly defined reason.
Giving away 350k SP for no reason has no precenent. Giving it to everyone, with no appreciation of why it is needed is arbitrary. Any suggestion otherwise is ignorant of history and language.
Quote:I understand you dont want anyone getting free SP. That is valid, because it is universal. Then you don't understand at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
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Posted - 2015.09.25 14:03:32 -
[18] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Why should new characters, created after a certain date, have more starting SP than characters created before that date? Because it's better for the game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26372
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Posted - 2015.09.25 14:44:40 -
[19] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There is no harm in applying the 350k to all past, present and future characters. GǪexcept that arbitrarily handing out SP sets a very bad and completely nonsensical precedent.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26373
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Posted - 2015.09.25 15:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You falsely ascribe the quality "arbitrary" to the universal 350k boost. No, I correctly ascribe it to a distribution that follows no reason.
Quote:That of maintaining the SP status quo, equity towards and equality of characters in this game environment. That is pretty much the exact opposite of why new characters get a skill boost. It's the same as the previous times they have done this type of change GÇö it was never harmful, it was always very specific, and this instance does not set any precedent on that front.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26375
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Posted - 2015.09.25 15:50:15 -
[21] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I pointed out and expressed reasons. No. You invented a reason GÇö one that has nothing to do with why new players are given 350k additional SP. That's what makes it arbitrary. In trying to justify a change you'd like to see, you amply demonstrate why it shouldn't.
New players are given an SP boost to create a smoother transition from an old NPE to a new one. This transition only affects and only applies to new characters, and even then, only to a select and limited few of them.
You, covetous of SP, then invents an unrelated, spurious, and completely unprecedented reason why you too should be given that SP even though you are not affected. This sets the dangerous and nonsensical precedent that, any time someone covets SP and can come up with a spurious and unconnected reason, they should just as arbitrarily be given SP.
Quote:The PURPOSE of adding 350k to the starting SP of new character, is to increase their access to opportunities and functionality. Wrong. The purpose of the 350k bonus is to smooth over the transition from an old NPE, where you only got 50k starting SP to a new one, where you get 400k. New players accidentally caught in this transition phase will thus not be unduly punished just because of their bad timing.
Quote:If CCP is going to raise the SP basis, there is no rational reason not to do so throughout all of its characters. Yes there is: it does not affect anyone except new players GÇö only new players need to be kept from ending up unwitting victims of poor timing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26376
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Posted - 2015.09.25 16:04:23 -
[22] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:False So you changed your mind then? You are not saying that everyone who isn't a new character should be given 350k SP. Because that's the only way for what I said to be false.
But of course, you are arguing exactly that, so you did invent a reason that has nothing to do with why new characters are given that SP boost. You came up with one that serves a completely unrelated and self-serving purpose, and which does not target the group that actually needs to be seen to with this transition.
Quote:I have given rational, supported reasons for why the SP boost should be rendered as universal And it is spurious, nonsensical, unrelated to the actual change, and as a result completely arbitrary, which is why it sets such a hideously bad precedent.
Oh, and I retract my previous number. if you want to remove the systemic inequality based on character creation time, you actually have to hand out closer to 50 million SP GÇö I forgot learning skills and early attributes.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26377
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Posted - 2015.09.25 16:28:39 -
[23] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claimed my arguments stated I was against giving 350k to new players. Incorrect. I claimed that you invented an argument for a change that had nothing to do with the reason new characters are getting an SP boost. Which you did.
Quote:You claimed I had given one reason. Incorrect. I claimed that there was no reason to do so. That's why you had to invent one, making the whole thing a dangerous precedent of arbitrarily handing out SP. Which it does.
Quote:You referred to new players So did you. So put a sock in it.
Quote:You have not addressed or argued my points Incorrect. I have explained exactly why they're either nonsensical or just outright inapplicable, and why, in the end, you're just trying to invent a reason why should get SP out of nowhere. And yes, you getting SP due to a change that has nothing to do with you is indeed spurious, nonsensical, and out of nowhere.
Let's put it this way: What does this patch change for you that warrants you being given 350k SP?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
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Posted - 2015.09.26 21:15:45 -
[24] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:A Year?? You should've trained all Supers or Titans.........just in case CCP actually makes them useful. Like I said, I ran out of interesting skills to train.
Teckos Pech wrote:For example Tippia is going on about how handing out 350,000 to new players who are 6 months or a year old is a devastating precedent, but somehow Tippia got 7 million SP for "free" and that's okay nor setting a precedent. It was ok because, rather than set a precedent, it followed the dictum of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it afterGÇ¥. I.e. nothing was gained, and nothing was lost (actually, something was lost: you could fit less ability in a clone, but that's so minor that no-one particularly cared).
This as opposed to randomly handing out 350k SP just because someone wanted it, especially since the characters in question didn't lose anything and weren't victims of poor timing. Arbitrary handouts would indeed set a bad precedent.
Johnny Riko wrote:Arguing with him is like bashing your head against a wall repeatedly.
The fact that his argument revolves around him being a older player and 350k being nothing to him shows how detached he actually is from reality. Actually, both of those show what an illiterate badposter you are. Your strawman has nothing to do with my argument, and the reason you feel like you're bashing your head against a wall is because not having a coherent argument gets you nowhere GÇö said headbashing parallels the futility of that (complete lack of) effort quite neatly.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26389
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:25:21 -
[25] - Quote
Zihao wrote:It is arbitrary to not disburse a "trivial," sum of sp when there is no functional way to distinguish between this instance and previous instances of skill modification That would indeed be arbitrary, but as luck would have it, it is trivially easy to distinguish the Vanguard changes from the historical cases when they've handed out SP after a skill change.
The most prominent feature that distinguishes Vanguard from those historical cases is that no skills are being changed in Vanguard.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26390
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Posted - 2015.09.26 23:43:55 -
[26] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Oh my God ye greedy jealous feckers , one would think with all of the recent "think of the children" postings of late ue would be happy for this change as is. Some read Malcanis' Law as something that must be obeyed rather than as an observation on a pattern, it seems.
Oh, and alsoGǪ
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Zihao wrote:Can you cite an example? Drone Interfacing. Turned from 20% to 10% Jump Drive Calibration, base jump skills became less effective, JDC gave less. Drones splitting to Light & Medium skills. People kept able to fly exactly what they could before at the same skill, but did not get given any NEW abilities. Probably the best example: Ethnic Relations GåÆ Diplomatic Relations.
An old skill was replaced by a new one, providing a vastly different bonus to an an entirely unrelated mechanic. No SP.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26391
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:44:09 -
[27] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So in other words, it was not "free". Thank you for under-mining your own credibility. It is always so much more effective when a person undermines their own credibility. Too bad it only happened in your head.
No, it was free. You're just confused because you fail to separate the concept of SP and the concept of ability.
Quote:I'd say that 1 year is a good cut off. An even better cut-off is 2 weeks, since that means it is really hard be in a spot where you'd lose anything in the NPE switch-over. A year is so hugely outside the realm of the NPE that it becomes outright ridiculous to suggest that they are in any way affected by this change. After all, that's what we're actually talking about here: we're switching from an old NPE layout to a new one, which means some new characters may accidentally be caught below the intended baseline for no reason other than bad timing. The hand-out to Gëñ14-day old characters smoothes out this transition and pretty much completely eliminates any chance of that happening.
Extending it to a year makes no sense because anyone who's below the new baseline a full year after the character birth are actually better off nuking that character and rolling a new one.
Quote:Frankly, if this is good for new player retention and given my current level of SP across my main and all my alts. Go for it! I would rather have more people in game than less. If it helps CCP good. If older players feel butthurt, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on. The funny thing is that older players seem to be the least butthurt by it. This is not very surprising since the NPE doesn't really affect them in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 01:56:05 -
[28] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The older players are less butthurt. Yes. They've seen these kinds of transitions before; they know the principles at play; and they aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:You have been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, now you reverse course and pretend it has been your position all along. No. I've been opposed to the OP pretty much all along, and now I still am because he's still not affected by this change. WellGǪ I hope he's not affected by this change, because that would mean he has spent the last 5 months with an empty skill queue. And anyway, if that's the case, he's better off biomassing and recreating the character from scratch.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:04:32 -
[29] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I find this change more akin to removing a skill that changing it's purpose. None of these skills have been modified, but rather have been effectively removed for one or all ranks. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:11:17 -
[30] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:At his point I'd recommend CCP take the path that pisses off the least number of players. Iow: just release the patch as planend.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:17:20 -
[31] - Quote
Zihao wrote:[To be perfectly honest McGriffin, I couldn't care less about the skillpoints. I just like the debate and I think I have the better argument. Your argument is based on a complete misunderstanding of what is happening and why, and on what looks like a complete ignorance of NPE changes, skill changes, and SP reimbursement policies throughout the history of EVE.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 02:47:16 -
[32] - Quote
Zihao wrote:That's a compelling rebuttal, but could you explain the flaw in my argument instead of implying it is mistaken? You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:01:33 -
[33] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yes, very much like that, but with a factual rebuttal of my learning skills corollary You mean like I did in the previous post?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:08:12 -
[34] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Can you elaborate on what my "complete misunderstanding," is? You mean like I did in the previous post?
You think something is being (virtually) removed, when in fact everything stays exactly the same.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:12:17 -
[35] - Quote
Zihao wrote:To be more accurate, I said the case of removing something was more proximate to the situation than changing it's function. GǪexcept that they haven't been removed GÇö not partially and definitely not entirely. Every level is still there and every level still matters as much as it used to. The levels are still required for the same things they've always been required for, and nothing has changed in terms of how skills interact or are dependent on each other.
So it's more akin to the skills being the same they've always been because, well, they haven't changed in any way.
In fact, if it had happened the way you claim, the new characters wouldn't need the additional skill levels they're getting. But of course, they do need them because the skills and their levels haven't been removed, altered, skipped, fiddled with or changed in any way whatsoever.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:18:54 -
[36] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Reason some of the veterans like yourself are not concerned about it is 350k is a tiny percentage of their total sp. No, the reason is because we've seen these kinds of transitions before; we know the principles at play; and we aren't particularly surprised that those not affected by the change aren't getting any SP.
Quote:Seems to me those veterans like yourself are really just saying, I 'm alright Jack screw the rest. Seems a fairly typical line that's taken on these forums. Seems you should take the time to actually read what we say rather than rely on strawman fallacies and similar nonsense.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:27:30 -
[37] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Well, for one thing, no skills have had their use case change either, so we're even on that account. Per "nothing has changed," we can count that one out because, the whole impetus of this debate is a skill change. No skills are being changed in Vanguard.
This sets this patch apart from all the historical cases where skill change happened and, depending on how and why things changed, SP were reimbursed on some occasions and not on others. It's not even the same class of event.
Quote:I have not argued any character "needs" additional sp. GǪnor did I say you did. I said that if things were changing the way you claimed, this thread wouldn't exist because there would be no additional SP for new characters. None would be required to fulfil the intent of the change.
Teckos Pech wrote:I everyone has a skill at 4 or higher, then in effect the SP for SP 4 and below have been removed. Given past precedent of "refunding such SP" then EVERYONE should be refunded those SP irrespective of age. The premise does not match reality, nor does it follow that this means the skill levels have been removed GÇö effectively or otherwise. There is also no precedent that would suggest that everyone should be refunded should such equality occur.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 03:47:32 -
[38] - Quote
Avvy wrote:I don't see what that has to do with it. What what has to do with it?
Quote:They give sp for extended downtime, so they have the means to make it fair for everyone, yet they choose not to. They are making it fair: they are ensuring that bad timing does not screw you out of getting the new NPE baseline. If the NPE does not apply to you, then this change is not relevant to you and you can't be screwed over regardless.
They could do it unfairly and just say that, GÇ£Oh, you made a character after we released the patch notes? Tough luck.GÇ¥ Instead, they went beyond fair and added a buffer so that even exceptionally slow trainers would reach the new baseline. Everyone else has already reached the baseline and is therefore not party to any kind of fairness argument.
Zihao wrote:Moving up the initial value is a change and, as I explained, I believe that's more proximate to the precedent of removal qua "they cannot be trained hence on new characters," at least more so than "they remain but have a new purpose." Hence my suggestion the latter argument is weaker. A change in the new character skill set is not a skill change. No skills are changed in Vanguard. They are all exactly the same as they were before the patch. They do not have a new purpose. There are no change in the mechanics. No-one is losing any ability.
Since no skills are being changed; since no ability is lost; since no skills are removed, there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I agree, what I've suggested is that, of the historical events I am presently aware of and we have discussed, the situation seems to better fit the situation of a pseudo-removal than a purpose shift GǪexcept that nothing is being removed. Pseudo or otherwise. Every skill and every level remains exactly the same; every ability unlocked remains exactly the same; every SP trained is retained and does not change in value or functionality.
So there is nothing that would warrant an SP reimbursement.
Quote:I fully agree that if there were no effective change, as you claim, that this thread would not exist Then you don't agree.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26395
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Posted - 2015.09.27 04:03:52 -
[39] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I believe you've disregarded pseudo too quickly and I believe under a more extreme case we would agree that changes of zero bar are in-fact changes. It is a change, just not to a skill. In particular, it's not a change that in any way equates to a skill removal or a loss of ability or a removal of a game mechanic. Thus: there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement.
Practically, on Tuesday, some characters will gain skill levels you have. Some may even gain skill levels you don't have. Neither is equivalent to you losing the skills and abilities you have, and all related game mechanics keep operating the same as they did the day before. Therefore, there is nothing that warrants a reimbursement, same as on every other day when this has happened, is happening, and will keep happening.
If you're curious about your hypothetical, PM one of the devs.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Sunshine and Lollipops
26396
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Posted - 2015.09.27 04:30:36 -
[40] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I disagree. It is entirely plausible that characters more than two weeks old not have a skill which becomes a default, which is a loss by reference to the new standard. GǪand yet, they lose nothing. They still have all the skills and abilities they trained for and unless they ****** up something fierce, they have at least twice the baseline SP. Therefore, they are not negatively affected by the NPE switch-over, especially not in a way that warrants an SP reimbursement.
On the utterly minute chance that they do have less than the baseline, they still come out ahead: they can just biomass and start a new character and get more than they had before. It is impossible to lose.
Quote:I would think "practically," was a poor choice of words. If we observe the scenario in which older character suddenly does not have a skill which new character defaults with, he has "practically," lost something No, he hasn't. In practice, everything is the same as before the patch GÇö he has the same skills and abilities he had before and they all work the same as always. Everything his skills let him do in practice before, he can do in practice afterwards as well (Entosis Links and Festival Launchers aside). If he didn't have the skill, he didn't have the skill, so he didn't lose it or the abilities it unlocked.
If he absolutely, desperately wants to see it as an opportunity lost, he lost it a long time ago when he chose not to train that skill GÇö it has nothing to do with what happens on Tuesday. His choice, by the way, does not warrant a reimbursement. Something happening to someone else does not entitle him to anything, least of all SP GÇö only changes that actually happen to him, directly are cause for him getting reimbursed.
Quote:I will take your lack of opinion on that hypothetical as a kindly nod to my point. Don't. It'll cause you nothing but grief. Take it for exactly what I said or don't take it at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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