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Redback911	Posted - 2006.12.24 17:47:00 - [31] Whats to fix? It's a market, one of the things that makes EVE great. One play style should not remain dominant forever. Ask the lowsec pirates about that one.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.24 18:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Redback911 Whats to fix? Well there's really n othing to fix. Prices went tru the roof, everithing is more expensive but that's about it. It will normalize somehow someday. However, If there's anything to be "fixed" is the insurance payouts. Is not r eally 'broken' but getting 40m for a 54m ship is not my idea of a full cover. insurance payout should be more dynamic IMO, to reflect market changes.
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.24 19:08:00 - [33] I don't know if some of the people posting here are actually operating in the new regions, but from my perspective the huge amounts people are talking about earning per-day is ridiculously over what you might reasonably expect (a large dose of BRAG involved). A couple of hours ratting up there will net you probably 4k Zydrine, 1k Megacyte, 0.5k Morphite plus tiny amounts of low ends - a similar amount to mining high ends in the other regions. You won't get much mining the asteroids either (between 200 - 500 per unit high ends). The effort required is quite high too - you must deploy and supply your POSs and get all of your equipment from empire (running the camps) because there just aren't enough low-end minerals around to supply a production operation out there. Not only that, but there are far fewer people in these new regions than in your typical pre-kali 0.0 space. I think you are all over-stating the effects of the new regions because you are looking for a correlation and that is the most obvious change from pre-kali. There are many changes/new things in Kali and there were a lot of people speculating on mineral prices around that time too. The question I would like answered however is that while the population has increased to 30k+ since release, the prices of minerals didn't inexorably rise pre-kali, as you might have expected if it were a purely supply/demand issue. I strongly suspect some dumping is going on at the moment.
Xy Kintar	Posted - 2006.12.24 20:23:00 - [34] Hey, I'm all for supply and demand, but if we're going to talk about it lets have all the facts on the table. Currently minerals such as trit and stront are no longer worth mining because you can buy NPC items such as starbase modules and scan probes and refine them. The cost per unit to do so sets a hard cap on those minerals that we have currently reached. If there is excess deman that would drive up the prices on these and other minerals a refiner merely has to buy the nepc goods, refine them and sell for 0 effort. The Eve economy is basically broken from the supply end right now. Stop with the talk that 0.0 miners can go out and stripmine belts of veld. Thats a complete waste of time, especially since you can import lowends from empire with minimal effort, lowends wose price is artificially capped. The point of this discussion is that there are many ways of making isk in this game, mining in 0.0 being one of them. The dropping of highend minerals by drones has made the mining profession pointless since highends are being produced with less effort by what was traditionally a merely isk generating job, ratting. As has been said before, Ratters used to use isk to buy minerals, now they use minerals to buy isk. The market distortions they cause are obvious.
bandit pricecheck	Posted - 2006.12.24 23:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Xy Kintar Hey, I'm all for supply and demand, but if we're going to talk about it lets have all the facts on the table. Currently minerals such as trit and stront are no longer worth mining because you can buy NPC items such as starbase modules and scan probes and refine them. The cost per unit to do so sets a hard cap on those minerals that we have currently reached. If there is excess deman that would drive up the prices on these and other minerals a refiner merely has to buy the nepc goods, refine them and sell for 0 effort. The Eve economy is basically broken from the supply end right now. Stop with the talk that 0.0 miners can go out and stripmine belts of veld. Thats a complete waste of time, especially since you can import lowends from empire with minimal effort, lowends wose price is artificially capped. The point of this discussion is that there are many ways of making isk in this game, mining in 0.0 being one of them. The dropping of highend minerals by drones has made the mining profession pointless since highends are being produced with less effort by what was traditionally a merely isk generating job, ratting. As has been said before, Ratters used to use isk to buy minerals, now they use minerals to buy isk. The market distortions they cause are obvious. Nice post Zy, Just to add to his comments. When the Dev's opened the new region they artifically manipulated the markets of Eve. What was normal pre Kali is not normal now. Market forces alone will not push the price of Zyd and Megacyte back up to what they were pre Kali, CCP will have to manipulate the market again to fix it. CCP in my opinion will nerf the new regions purely on the bases that a character can make more isk per hour up there than anywhere else. A gang of 3-4 can make 50m an hour up there per person with minimal trouble.
babyblue	Posted - 2006.12.25 02:06:00 - [36] Originally by: bandit pricecheck When the Dev's opened the new region they artifically manipulated the markets of Eve. What was normal pre Kali is not normal now. Market forces alone will not push the price of Zyd and Megacyte back up to what they were pre Kali, CCP will have to manipulate the market again to fix it. CCP in my opinion will nerf the new regions purely on the bases that a character can make more isk per hour up there than anywhere else. A gang of 3-4 can make 50m an hour up there per person with minimal trouble. Wrong on so many levels. Firstly, 8 new regions are producing no more than existing regions in high ends; balance that with the increase in player base over the last two years - can you then explain mineral prices? No. Because if there were a solid correlation between high end prices and player base, these minerals would have been increasing in value pre-kali over that period, because the supply was static but the demand increased. Secondly, these aren't fixed NPC prices, so your "50m 3-4 people" is only 50m if you can get the right price for your high ends. You won't make any more out there than you will in other 0.0 regions, especially if you factor in rare module values and bounties (something you are forgetting in your analysis). Contrast that with the fixed bounty prices from old 0.0 region ratting - a guaranteed bonus for every kill. Thirdly, it's difficult to trade/use high ends out there for any purpose - you can't buy because and you can't sell - you can't sell because you can't build (low ends are scarce). The result is that you dump your minerals on empire markets rather than using them out in the sticks. This will change when the big alliances eventually take over. They will generate demand with PvP and build facilities for trade and manufacture. These new regions are too new to have seriously affected markets and too new to come to a judgement about their affect on the game as a whole.
Capt Rapace	Posted - 2006.12.25 02:22:00 - [37] I was in empire earlier, and as a 0.0 miner the prices are getting very scary, 3k p/u on zyd, 3500 p/u on megacyte and 11k p/u on morphite, if these prices keep dropping this drastically i honestly feel ratting will be an easier and safer option
Caroglac Amarr The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.12.25 02:34:00 - [38] ive got 3 characters I can use for mining... 2 can fly hulks and 1 a covetor.. and all three can fly very big haulers.. my hulks can tank tripple bs spawns. I have stoped mining... and im thinking about canceling 2 of my accounts since I only use them for mining :( I dont want to cancel the accounts so im trying my hand at other profit making activities :) but please ccp... FIX the drones so that they nolonger destroy mining as a profession Cap Ship Sales
bandit pricecheck	Posted - 2006.12.25 02:51:00 - [39] Originally by: babyblue Originally by: bandit pricecheck When the Dev's opened the new region they artifically manipulated the markets of Eve. What was normal pre Kali is not normal now. Market forces alone will not push the price of Zyd and Megacyte back up to what they were pre Kali, CCP will have to manipulate the market again to fix it. CCP in my opinion will nerf the new regions purely on the bases that a character can make more isk per hour up there than anywhere else. A gang of 3-4 can make 50m an hour up there per person with minimal trouble. Wrong on so many levels. Firstly, 8 new regions are producing no more than existing regions in high ends; balance that with the increase in player base over the last two years - can you then explain mineral prices? No. Because if there were a solid correlation between high end prices and player base, these minerals would have been increasing in value pre-kali over that period, because the supply was static but the demand increased. Secondly, these aren't fixed NPC prices, so your "50m 3-4 people" is only 50m if you can get the right price for your high ends. You won't make any more out there than you will in other 0.0 regions, especially if you factor in rare module values and bounties (something you are forgetting in your analysis). Contrast that with the fixed bounty prices from old 0.0 region ratting - a guaranteed bonus for every kill. Thirdly, it's difficult to trade/use high ends out there for any purpose - you can't buy because and you can't sell - you can't sell because you can't build (low ends are scarce). The result is that you dump your minerals on empire markets rather than using them out in the sticks. This will change when the big alliances eventually take over. They will generate demand with PvP and build facilities for trade and manufacture. These new regions are too new to have seriously affected markets and too new to come to a judgement about their affect on the game as a whole. Supply of high ends has not been static. For it to be static every high end asteriod would of had to be completely mined out on a regular basis and that never happened, there has always been room for the supply side to grow throughout, thats why the mineral prices didnt go through the roof. CCP already nerfed the drones in complexes a while back. They halved the amount of compounds they dropped because the mission runners had it sweet. I really dont understand how people still think the drone regions are not impacting the high end markets??? I mean like you have thousands of guys up there doing nothing but collecting high ends to sell in high sec....whats so hard to understand?
Fraeg	Posted - 2006.12.25 05:10:00 - [40] I agree with a previous poster in this thread. The obvious solution is to make it so the new drones drop less high ends and make up the gap with a new alloy that serves as highly compressed trit/py/mex. As a 0.0 producer I would love this so very, very much.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2006.12.25 05:48:00 - [41] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 25/12/2006 05:48:36 Originally by: bandit pricecheck Originally by: babyblue Originally by: bandit pricecheck When the Dev's opened the new region they artifically manipulated the markets of Eve. What was normal pre Kali is not normal now. Market forces alone will not push the price of Zyd and Megacyte back up to what they were pre Kali, CCP will have to manipulate the market again to fix it. CCP in my opinion will nerf the new regions purely on the bases that a character can make more isk per hour up there than anywhere else. A gang of 3-4 can make 50m an hour up there per person with minimal trouble. Wrong on so many levels. Firstly, 8 new regions are producing no more than existing regions in high ends; balance that with the increase in player base over the last two years - can you then explain mineral prices? No. Because if there were a solid correlation between high end prices and player base, these minerals would have been increasing in value pre-kali over that period, because the supply was static but the demand increased. Secondly, these aren't fixed NPC prices, so your "50m 3-4 people" is only 50m if you can get the right price for your high ends. You won't make any more out there than you will in other 0.0 regions, especially if you factor in rare module values and bounties (something you are forgetting in your analysis). Contrast that with the fixed bounty prices from old 0.0 region ratting - a guaranteed bonus for every kill. Thirdly, it's difficult to trade/use high ends out there for any purpose - you can't buy because and you can't sell - you can't sell because you can't build (low ends are scarce). The result is that you dump your minerals on empire markets rather than using them out in the sticks. This will change when the big alliances eventually take over. They will generate demand with PvP and build facilities for trade and manufacture. These new regions are too new to have seriously affected markets and too new to come to a judgement about their affect on the game as a whole. Supply of high ends has not been static. For it to be static every high end asteriod would of had to be completely mined out on a regular basis and that never happened, there has always been room for the supply side to grow throughout, thats why the mineral prices didnt go through the roof. CCP already nerfed the drones in complexes a while back. They halved the amount of compounds they dropped because the mission runners had it sweet. I really dont understand how people still think the drone regions are not impacting the high end markets??? I mean like you have thousands of guys up there doing nothing but collecting high ends to sell in high sec....whats so hard to understand? Because the mission runners never got high-ends hand-over-fist at rates that were competitive with the best 0.0 miners. At best they got a handful of high-end alloys, and many missions were not drone missions. These prices are quickly becoming beyond painful. PS For anyone wondering about what Xy was talking about, you can melt down Coupling Arrays for trit at about 2.8isk/unit before taxes, losses, etc ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.25 21:29:00 - [42] Edited by: ragewind on 25/12/2006 21:34:56 Edited by: ragewind on 25/12/2006 21:32:38 as was said earlyer its a market and it dose make eve realistic, what CCP need to moniter and watch is whats couseing it to change so much is it the players or something they did. high ends droping may be down to pre patch stock piles for the new ships. it could also be just down to a rather big aliance clearing out its hangers as it heads back to empire at full speed rather short on isk after a war. it could be oversupply of high ends in the drones in the new regones just geting transported to empire. rigs and the salvage is produceing untolds amounds of mins now due to the demand for the rig bits and being foced to loot the wreck adds more mins. belt rating in 0.0 is now also less profiterbel and populor as in the patch it has seemingly afected the number and rate of spawns making that rating ship look more profiterbel as a mining tank. low ends in empire are affected by the sheer amount needed for the new ships take the ferox and drake ferox could be bought for just over 23mil now the dread has a base insurance cost of 40mil so that is its starting biuld cost this is 173% of the ferox cost its not that much better or stranger but the increase in biuld cost is the number of mins and that is one hell of a jump this slown pushes mins up no end. low sec is no far more dangorus so less mining in there. hidden off grid belts cant be scaned down the old point and MWD way so miners dont even risk it in those belts as they cant find them. so many things are affecting it just someone needs figer out weather it is player based events that coursed the change or not if its down to us then its hard luck for us
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.25 23:00:00 - [43] Edited by: Nyphur on 25/12/2006 23:01:14 It will stop when the mineral cost of ships becomes approximately 80% of the insurance payout. Any lower and you could make isk by buying minerals, building ships, then insuring and self-destructing them. So supply and demand can't crash the T1 mineral market. There's an artificial stabalising agent in it with insurance. This isn't a real market, there are fake NPC influences to prevent eve's economy falling over when the devs break the game like this. :/ But 0.0 mining is currently not profitable. I'm serious, it's a joke now. It used to be barely worth it, but now you can make a lot more ratting and it's just not worth mining at all. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Clurk Brodon	Posted - 2006.12.25 23:46:00 - [44] Originally by: ragewind it could also be just down to a rather big aliance clearing out its hangers as it heads back to empire at full speed rather short on isk after a war. Must be some really big hangars for zydrine prices to crash from 3700 to 2700 in two weeks.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.26 00:03:00 - [45] Here my 2 cents. Currently I think the deflation in value of highend minerals is due, as people have suggested, to pre-kali stockpilers & TNR spillover. It seems in the weeks before kali everyone & their friend was building up stockpiles of med & highend ores, anticiating a boom in demand the moment the patch was deployed. Unfortunately for those who did actually think this way, they were idiots. Demand didnt & still doesnt meet supply & it seems as prices began to drop, ppl have become unnerved & dumped their stockpiles at low rates in the hope they might salvage some profit. Unsurprisingly, it doesnt look like the quick buck profiteers stockpiled massive amounts of low end mins. Ironic since these seem to have proved the most profitable. Of course this speculation alone isnt the cause of the current high end depression & low end inflation. The aparent alloy imbalance of the TNR rogue drones on paper doesnt look bad. However, the lack of sufficient outposts & low end minerals have meant many of those in TNR have so far seemingly simply moved their highend loot minerals to empire markets. This, coupled with the continued supply from 0.0 miners & the dumped stockpiles, has meant supply of Zydrine & Megacyte has swamped all empire markets. Will it correct itself? In time i expect prices of high end ores will rise back to near what it was before. the new BPOs will come out of research, ready for mass production. As more outposts are established in TNR, & the ppl out there generally become more organised, mineral supply from out there will i think diminish. Simularly, the mass stockpile dumps will be bought out, leaving the market to return to a state of normalsy. Low end mins may remain at their new high, but most likely it will drop as profit miners see a new & easy avenue to make quick isk. I think sometimes ppl forget that even in a computer game, market trends do take time to occur. Expecting a sudden surge in demand for highend minerals post kali was naieve in the same way missing the low end mineral boom has proved a shock to many. Give it a couple months yet & i wouldnt be surprised if things have settled down. It may not look the same as pre-kali. But it wont be as bizarre as it is now.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.26 00:49:00 - [46] Originally by: Clurk Brodon Originally by: ragewind it could also be just down to a rather big aliance clearing out its hangers as it heads back to empire at full speed rather short on isk after a war. Must be some really big hangars for zydrine prices to crash from 3700 to 2700 in two weeks. ROLF one day go to AZN look at the belts see how much top end ore is there and go cound the refinery station in that regon now think 2000 personal acounts worth of ore + corperat stashes and then the station cut from all refining tax i do belive you would be filling freighters with the amount of stuff leaveing/left that regon the movment and the distruction of that much isk in ships ect means player will sell there stock off to get them set up doing new venture this would couses a short turm drop in the market price by a lot
TanSpectra	Posted - 2006.12.26 11:47:00 - [47] I think the reason is simpler what we are seeing is 0.0 corps dumping stockpiles of high end materials to buy low end materials for massive construction programs for both ships and outposts. The dumping of zyd and mega has forced these prices down while the buying up of trit pyr has forced these prices up.
Saerid Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.26 19:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Saerid on 26/12/2006 19:49:57 Originally by: TanSpectra I think the reason is simpler what we are seeing is 0.0 corps dumping stockpiles of high end materials to buy low end materials for massive construction programs for both ships and outposts. The dumping of zyd and mega has forced these prices down while the buying up of trit pyr has forced these prices up. I'd be inclined to agree with that estimate. - ASCN flushing it's stockpiles on market. - Major capital ship construction programs typically being funded through high end mining or refinery taxes both resulting in same thing: large stocks of zyd and mega. All you need to do is to look at capital deployment like what the ISS fight in Catch had. 60ish dreads and carriers, 4 motherships, titan and start doing a tally of how much low ends you're looking at and how much high ends they consumed and needed extra to buy lows. The skewing factor is likely alliances looking to fund their low and midend mineral buying by selling their high end stocks. I'd be very surprised if the new regions had anything near the population density required for this. Old ones certainly do.

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