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KEYSTYLES
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Posted - 2006.12.21 23:31:00 -
[1]
I understand that its part of the game and i dont mind that people can take my ore after ive mined it. Its the fact that there are no repercussions and no way for the victim to retaliate if its done in secure space. Something needs to done and im starting this thread to discuss what that is.
My thought is that dump cans should be connected to a player and when it is looted by someone other than the owner, the owner is aloted kill rights for a short time, or something along those lines.
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Coran Ordus
Radiant With Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.22 00:51:00 -
[2]
Originally by: KEYSTYLES I understand that its part of the game and i dont mind that people can take my ore after ive mined it. Its the fact that there are no repercussions and no way for the victim to retaliate if its done in secure space. Something needs to done and im starting this thread to discuss what that is.
My thought is that dump cans should be connected to a player and when it is looted by someone other than the owner, the owner is aloted kill rights for a short time, or something along those lines.
It's called can flagging, and it already exists. If someone steals from you, you have 15 minutes of free license to blow them up. The rules are a little subtle around gangs and corps, but I'm pretty sure the thief cannot receive help from his gang/corpmates. Which isn't to say that they don't do it in a combat ship or combat-fitted hauler just to bait you into attacking. (Search for 'battle badger')
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.22 02:42:00 -
[3]
And it doesn't just flag them to you. You're whole corp enjoys open season on the thief, so you can set up some clever gank situations around cans or wrecks. Just having a mate in a tackler afk next to you will smell sufficiently like a trap to discourage most would-be can jackers. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum |
Mira deVorsha
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Posted - 2006.12.22 16:22:00 -
[4]
Not to mention you could just use a secure can.
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Gorstag
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Posted - 2006.12.22 18:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mira deVorsha Not to mention you could just use a secure can.
Hate to say it.. but secure cans are a joke. They need to make a MUCH large secure can around the 9-12k range and make them much easier to deploy. The current implimentation of these cans is why no one uses them and why ore theives are so common.
The current 5km empty space + 3900 m/3 is just horrible. Jetcans allow you to put them right where your at which is in effect "usable" and "wieldy" while secure cans are not.
Fix secure cans would be a better solution that setting up "ganks".
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Solid Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.22 21:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gorstag (..)The current implimentation of these cans is why no one uses them (..)
No one uses them? You haven't taken a look at highsec belts recently, haven't you? Those aren't all abandoned cans. Choose your arguments more accurately.
Apart from that, I agree with the common notion and most ideas. -There should be a system that determines how many cans you can anchor. -Jetcans could be smaller (especially now that we have wrecks). -Secure containers could be bigger.
But then again small secure containers, insecure jetcans and ore thiefs keep the economy in check right now. If mining was more comfortable, it might have a negative impact on EVE economics. So while reducing the amount of can spam by limiting the number of anchorable containers per character would be a good thing in any case, increasing secure can capacity is a delicate issue.
________________________ - Posting on forums can be more arduous than mowing your lawn with nail scissors - |
Alkirin
Gallente Die Hard Mining
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Posted - 2006.12.23 01:11:00 -
[7]
Making more ore easier to get wouldn't hurt the economy. If anything, it would combat inflation as it adjusts the ratio of supply/demand in the favor of supply.
Lower ore prices = lower everything else.
[Cogito Ergo Sum Atheios] - Alkirin of Scientia Obscura |
Snabbik Shigen
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Posted - 2007.01.09 14:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Coran Ordus It's called can flagging, and it already exists. If someone steals from you, you have 15 minutes of free license to blow them up. The rules are a little subtle around gangs and corps, but I'm pretty sure the thief cannot receive help from his gang/corpmates. Which isn't to say that they don't do it in a combat ship or combat-fitted hauler just to bait you into attacking. (Search for 'battle badger')
I agree that thievery is a mechanic of the game. But can flagging mechanics are broken. Ore thief gangs abuse the game mechanics to make it impossible to recover ore without committing a criminal act yourself. In the following example, all 3 players are in different corps.
Player A mines into a jetcan
Player B comes up, jettisons their own can (sometimes it's player C that jettisons the can)
Player B moves all ore from player A's can into their can (or directly into player C's can?)
Player C (in a different corp) then comes up and pulls the ore out of Player B's cannister using a defenseless industrial ship
Player A has no way to retaliate against player C
...
Possible solutions:
1. Players that commit hostile acts should not be allowed to dock until the timer runs out. That would give the aggrieved parties a full 15 minutes to chase down the aggressor. If they logoff in space, their ship should be traceable for the full 15 minutes.
2. The criminal timer flag should grow while docked or while logged off to a maximum of 2 hours. Right now, players simply dock for 15 minutes and escape responsibility for their actions. With a timer that doesn't count down (and grows!), they have to either run now with a short timer or run later with a long timer.
(The first two options would allow corps to hunt down thieves without remorse. The only way to escape would be to string enough jumps until the 15 minute timer runs out.)
3. It should not be possible to put items into a can that does not belong to you. (Is this even an issue...?) Otherwise player B will simply transfer the goods directly into player C's can.
4. Flagging should follow the item and be viral. When player B commits the crime of theft, any can that he touches should be flagged to the original player (A) for 15 minutes as well. This is where it gets tricky. Because organized ore thieves will simply play hot-potato with the flag. (Using 2-3 alts from 2-3 different corps.) Also a pain to code.
5. Possibly the simplest option. Do not allow transfers directly between cans. Players would have to transfer the ore into their hold, then into another can. It slows down the thief and makes sense game-wise. A tiny frigate should not be able move 27500 m3 of ore in one simply move. That would fix the "use small disposable craft to perform the theft".
5b. In addition to #5. Don't allow transfers from hold to can or from can to hold any more frequently then 5 seconds. So to move 27500 m3 of cargo into a 2nd container using a 350 m3 Bantam would require 78 * 2 transfers or 13 minutes. That's fast enough not to interfere with mining and requires that the thief either take his time or come with a larger vessel that requires fewer transfers.
(I suspect that #3 and #5 will have to happen in order to fix the abuse of using 3rd party corps as the "getaway vehicle".)
Like I said, I don't mind the game mechanics of thievery. But it's too easy to abuse right now making it a risk-free profession in high-sec space.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Solid Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.09 16:50:00 -
[9]
Good points Snabbik, I like them
________________________ - Posting on forums can be more arduous than mowing your lawn with nail scissors - |
Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.10 01:21:00 -
[10]
I love 5 and have suggested it before. If you want to steal 20000 cubic meters of ore in a battleship with a 400 cubic meter drone bay, you should have to spend some serious time sitting there and doing it, with the flag activated when you take the first load. Can flagging laws are a good answer to haulers stealing ore, but they've been co-opted by ore thieves.
If you want to steal ore, you should have to do it in a battle badger and hope there's no gank. Risk and reward.
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Snabbik Shigen
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Posted - 2007.01.10 05:57:00 -
[11]
I think the only way to deal with abuse of the flagging rules is going to be:
- If you steal from a can, you're flagged for everyone in the system. Not just the person you stole from.
That would prevent them from using a 3rd party to steal the ore from the 2nd can into a 3rd can to avoid retribution by the 1st party.
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Lost Ninja
Incessant-Logic's Friendly Society
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Posted - 2007.01.10 13:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Snabbik Shigen I think the only way to deal with abuse of the flagging rules is going to be:
- If you steal from a can, you're flagged for everyone in the system. Not just the person you stole from.
That would prevent them from using a 3rd party to steal the ore from the 2nd can into a 3rd can to avoid retribution by the 1st party.
It would, but it would also flag your own alts as theives even when you're cool with it.
My 2nd account mines while my first hauls, works well, if my first account gets DCd and I don't remake the gang quickly enough I 'steal' the ore out of the jetcan with the hauler. This obviously flags me to the miner as a theif. No problem, if it flagged me to all in system/region/whatever as an ore theif I'd die when in fact I had stolen nothing.
Personally like the viral idea best, which in conjunction with the movement retriction would do the job.
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JohnyGee
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Posted - 2007.01.10 13:44:00 -
[13]
Well about that docking. I would suggest dont be able to dock while flagged because the thieve can simly dock with his hauler with the stolen ore and switch to another ship (shuttle,pod,fighting ship) undock and do whatever (get shot and dont care or simply run around in a fast ship impossible to catch). Secondary you could be restricted to jetison anything(or the stolen stuff) while flagged but this could cause some issues with other things. I am not sure: realization in the SW or I used to salvage wreck after ppl who didnt care to reduce lag and get some isk in the process and the wreck has to be empty to do that.
With that flagging to everyone in system, well that doesnt seem to be a good idea. I think corp or gang is enough because it is your stuff that has been stolen so don't bother other ppl with it and what when someone else shots the thieve and all the stolen stuff survives? I think the one who shot him donw keeps the loot (could be the 3rd party )
And finally a small suggestion. If mining anywhere outside hi sec, pirates or enemies can shot your can with the ore in an instant. I done some solo and corp mining and in 99% the ore was placed into the jet can and then hauled once enough ore was in it I dont know any other effective way. Happed to me a few times that because all of the haulers and miners where able to escape so the pirate or enemy poped the can or wreck (hauler spawn) just to hurt us. Took him just a few second in a cruiser . I suggest to create a high capacity container with like 30 000 m3 or more whitch could be repackaged in space like a POS module for the ore or stuff so it cant be shot down in a few seconds. Current cans are too small.
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Snabbik Shigen
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Posted - 2007.01.10 15:31:00 -
[14]
The reason I suggest flagging against all is due to the current broken flagging mechanics that are easily abused. (Player B steals from player A, then uses uninvolved C to steal from B. A can not retaliate against C and B simply runs away.) Even getting this right would be tricky. It would have to be done in a way that player C can't join the gang after the fact and swipe the ore out of B's can without being flagged.
Viral flagging comes with its own set of issues as well. It can probably be abused by a griefer who puts stolen cargo into your can. Now, you're either flagged as a thief or you can't get stuff out of your cargo can without being tainted.
There's very few easy solutions to the issue... all of them come with some downsides.
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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.01.10 16:40:00 -
[15]
The viral idea is potentially abusable too:
a innocently mining b drops some ore c moves the ore into as can
c is now flagged as stealing from b. When the miners hauler takes the stuff from the can he is now flagged as stealing from b too.
Zarch AlDain
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Angelus Xenotov
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Posted - 2007.01.14 18:47:00 -
[16]
I know, lets make empire mining SO EASY that a 3 year old could do it.
Oh wait. That's what it is now.
Ore theives are a pathetically small risk when compared to all the other professions of EVE (Missions/low sec mining/0.0) except perhaps market running (And even then you could lose 100mills instead of that 250k of scordite you just mined). So really, Empire miners should count their lucky stars that CCP doesn't make it HARDER for them.
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Exodya Hardcore
Gallente Rebirth Inc. Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.01.14 20:30:00 -
[17]
there is a unfortune reason as to why they do not make biger secure can, Ex: a itheron V full expand can carry 7 giant secure container.. so that mean one normal jet can be scoop out in one go .... so if they make biger can a ore thief will aslo be able to carry more ore in a lesser ship .. see the point??
as for the can to can transfer it would also penalize the miners for in quieter space where ther is also less risk of ore thief one cans mine & fill multiple can before going back for it hauler " i mine between 5 or 6 can before going for my hauler" so i need to renew my jets often so it a no good there too
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Johann Jeneau
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.15 09:23:00 -
[18]
if you are in a corp you just need 1 or 2 afk guys around the can with you to stop most thieves, if you are in a NPC corp (you're probably an alt):
Quote: 3. It should not be possible to put items into a can that does not belong to you. (Is this even an issue...?) Otherwise player B will simply transfer the goods directly into player C's can.
will take your best chance of stoping a thief because that same thing you say they do is the best way for an NPC player to create a problem to the thief, use a friend or your alt can to mine.
you will still have problems with good organized corps of thieves but only because they are good at what they are doing, there are people who get stealed and there are some who don't...why is that...???
Because some are better miners then others, this is a game, and mining like everything else in this game doesn't get measured in skillpoints but in player/corp abilities
I respect a good miner as i respect a good fighter, they both know the game and the mechanics and they both investigate/train enough to know what they are doing, they deserve to be better and more sucessfull then an AFK/laisy player
Of course if you mine for 23/7 then it really doesn't matter if you are good, if you are bad, you are simply one more parasite in Eve and still make more ISK then a better player...good for you
I like my steaks bloody as hell |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2007.01.15 13:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Gorstag (..)The current implimentation of these cans is why no one uses them (..)
No one uses them? You haven't taken a look at highsec belts recently, haven't you? Those aren't all abandoned cans.Choose your arguments more accurately.
Apart from that, I agree with the common notion and most ideas. -There should be a system that determines how many cans you can anchor. -Jetcans could be smaller (especially now that we have wrecks). -Secure containers could be bigger.
But then again small secure containers, insecure jetcans and ore thiefs keep the economy in check right now. If mining was more comfortable, it might have a negative impact on EVE economics. So while reducing the amount of can spam by limiting the number of anchorable containers per character would be a good thing in any case, increasing secure can capacity is a delicate issue.
Bold for emphasis. They are mostly abandoned or rarely used. I can fill one to overflow in 6 minutes. Useless.
I find uncomprensible your argument about economycs. Reducing the mineral output produced by legitimate miners is an aid to macrominers and a system to strangle production increasimg the low end minerals costs (I don't see the same problem with high end ores as usually there is a armed guard near).
You see some positive aspect?
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2007.01.15 13:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Exodya Hardcore there is a unfortune reason as to why they do not make biger secure can, Ex: a itheron V full expand can carry 7 giant secure container.. so that mean one normal jet can be scoop out in one go .... so if they make biger can a ore thief will aslo be able to carry more ore in a lesser ship .. see the point??
As we are proposing a larger secure can, how can the thief shteal it?
The problem is that jetcans are vulnerable but needed to mine.
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Johann Jeneau
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.15 16:43:00 -
[21]
Quote: The problem is that jetcans are vulnerable but needed to mine.
They are not needed to mine, they are the most efficient way of mining
RISK/REWARD it's what's EVE is all about, and like i've said a GOOD MINER will not be stealed very often, not because they whine alot but because they learn how to use the game mechanics in their favour
train your drone skills, use a WEB and kill the bastard if you really want to play solo, if you are in a non NPC corp then you and your corpmates must be poor players to be stoled very often by the some guys
I like my steaks bloody as hell |
hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.01.16 02:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: KEYSTYLES I understand that its part of the game and i dont mind that people can take my ore after ive mined it. Its the fact that there are no repercussions and no way for the victim to retaliate if its done in secure space. Something needs to done and im starting this thread to discuss what that is.
My thought is that dump cans should be connected to a player and when it is looted by someone other than the owner, the owner is aloted kill rights for a short time, or something along those lines.
having read this type of rubbish ad naesum having 3 players hauler, miner and guard ( requires u to multi play co op) is enough to deter most ore thieves as is finding a quite system or using exploration to find those hidden gem mining sites)
the system is fine as is and fits in with CCPs PVP focused style of gameplay
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Adunh Slavy
Chaos Faction
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Posted - 2007.01.16 09:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Snabbik Shigen
- If you steal from a can, you're flagged for everyone in the system. Not just the person you stole from.
Probelm with this sort of thing is that you also protect macros.
-AS |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2007.01.19 14:54:00 -
[24]
simple solution, sell kill right or when someone is flagged anyone ganged to you also have kill rights on them during your 15min counter but when you fire on someone who is flagged you don't get flagged yourself(heard this happens sometimes) but for now . . .I know this may sounds kinda strange and new but . . .mine in a team with someone hauling for you? shocker there. if you have a hauler for you solo, you may make 3/4, they get 25% of total, but with 2 miners and one hauler that's only 12.5% of your money, 3 that would be 8.5% of your money for a system that also gets your ore to station and mine longer from no travel times
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Snabbik Shigen
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Posted - 2007.01.20 05:01:00 -
[25]
How would flagging against everyone in the system protect macrominers?
(By flagging for everyone in the system currently, you eliminate the can shuffle flagging exploit. Where B steals from A, then uses a 3rd party C to steal from B. Now A can't get their ore back at all without committing a criminal act and being flagged.)
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Notnearly OnEnough
Minmatar JumpDrive Inc
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Posted - 2007.01.25 02:24:00 -
[26]
when someone takes ore from a can and gets flagged. also flag the ore.. you end up with a new material "hot veldspar" or "stolen veldspar" and that would only be able to get sold to a black market agent out of the range of concord. let's say black market buyer agents exist in 0.4 and lower. they have quality levels and type levels same as regular agents. your skill of black marketing determines how much you get for the ore.
this ore would be flagged stolen untill sold thru a black market agent. so it would not matter if B or C had it.
ok, that was the NPC black market version for the players with a POS the other thing this would open up is mobile operators could have a stolen ore "lab" (think chop shop) and require a reaction BPO to convert ore to good minerals from stolen. same as the drug lab that requires reactions/ |
Shichiro Motokana
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Posted - 2007.01.25 02:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: KEYSTYLES I understand that its part of the game and i dont mind that people can take my ore after ive mined it. Its the fact that there are no repercussions and no way for the victim to retaliate if its done in secure space. Something needs to done and im starting this thread to discuss what that is.
My thought is that dump cans should be connected to a player and when it is looted by someone other than the owner, the owner is aloted kill rights for a short time, or something along those lines.
I think that the first thing that should be done is to allow anyone flagged to someone else by a theft to steal from the thief's cans without being flagged themselves. This is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Clearly a good grief tactic would be to take a badass ship into a belt, and gank someone's can into a new can and then pop them when they try to get their ore back. That should not be sanctioned at all. The original owner should be able to take their ore back without fearing instant death.
Beyond that, though, I see no need for change. There are ways around having your ore stolen.
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Shichiro Motokana
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Posted - 2007.01.25 02:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader And it doesn't just flag them to you. You're whole corp enjoys open season on the thief, so you can set up some clever gank situations around cans or wrecks. Just having a mate in a tackler afk next to you will smell sufficiently like a trap to discourage most would-be can jackers.
And yet, for some reason if you shoot at the thief, you don't aggro to their corp. That strikes me as a little odd. Those who steal should get a corp aggro, and those who shoot at someone else should get a corp aggro.
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Shichiro Motokana
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Posted - 2007.01.25 02:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gorstag
Originally by: Mira deVorsha Not to mention you could just use a secure can.
Hate to say it.. but secure cans are a joke. They need to make a MUCH large secure can around the 9-12k range and make them much easier to deploy.
I agree with this. A single can that can fit inside a well-equipped hauler and scooped up would be a good addition, as the giant cans are a joke indeed. Given that it only takes 60 sec to anchor and unanchor, this would be a very viable secure mining option. You could secure a can on its arrival, fill it, have a hauler arrive to trade an empty for the full can (after its unanchored), anchor the empty once the hauler scoops and keep right on going.
Might get difficult as your yield begins to increase to the point that a hauler would always be moving though.
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.25 17:10:00 -
[30]
You can pump and jump, or you can jetcan mine, or you can mine into tiny secure cans. These are all viable options, they all have positive and negative aspects. I don't really see a problem with the current system.
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