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Anyone elseÆs turrets hitting way outside there max range?

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Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:35:00 - [1] ItÆs happened a few times today at first I thought it was just me but last time I watched carefully. I have 1 small laser to aggro rats with a optimal of 16km and a falloff of 3.6km. So thatÆs a 19.6km range max, yet I keep warping in shooting at rats out at 30 to 60km range and hitting. ô2006.12.22 15:28:36 Combat Your Dual Light Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Mordus Rookie, wrecking for 37.6 damage.ö Out at 30 ish km. Shouldnt that be impossbile? Passive shield tanking guide click here
Mr Bondy Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:45:00 - [2] I had this a while back - setup a destroyer full of T2 kit just for fun and noticed my 125's were hitting at 100km+ Cant remeber the exact value but it was significantly over the optimal+ 2* falloff To the test server....
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:49:00 - [3] it could be lag. my raven has a lockon range of 90km and a torpedo range of 99km. i hit an Angel in a mission at 120km based on my overview and target boxes.
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:52:00 - [4] Its not lag as the rats I am hitting always start at over 20km away from where you warp in. Just hit another rat at 20km now. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:57:00 - [5] is it all shots or just wreckings? i have heard that wreckings have been known to ignore range as they are a per shot dice roll. however if its all shots then maybe smalls got a stealth buff
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:58:00 - [6] Edited by: dalman on 22/12/2006 16:01:37 It's not impossible to hit. It never is. You can fire a small blaster from 249km range and hit. It's just very very unlikely. Tracking formula: Hit chance = ((1/2)^((((Transv/(RangeTracking))(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff)^2)) Hit chance will never be 0, but very close to zero. Using your example, at 30km... (1/2)^((14/3.6)^2)= You should hit about 3 times in 100,000 shots. However... I'm kinda thinking there might still be something strange going on with wrecking shots. And also, there could be synch bugs as usual, so the rats are actually in another position than the client shows. edit See you used 20km as example now... at 20km you actually still have a 42.5% chance to hit, with your 16 optimal and 3.6 falloff. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:59:00 - [7] Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2006 15:59:21 wreckings only but I never noticed that before. At least I think its wreckings only its for sure not evey shot. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:12:00 - [8] Wrecking shots used to be independent of range and tracking, but AFAIK that was fixed over 2 years ago. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:17:00 - [9] Also if you're doing a deadspace mission, rats might not be where they seem to... it's a very known bug to missionrunners. Check where they are and after you kill them check where their wreck appears... sometimes it has been 40km+ away from where it should for me.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Pottsey I have 1 small laser to aggro rats with a optimal of 16km and a falloff of 3.6km. So thatÆs a 19.6km range max, No, that's a 50% chance to hit at 19.6km. You should look at the turret overview on this site that explains how falloff and optimal work. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
M00dy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:25:00 - [11] Yeah, I've wrecked orbiting Intys before in my Arty Pest.
Vol Jbolaz Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:26:00 - [12] This smells like the armor/injury flaw in BloodBowl, especially when you consider the affects of the target painter. To demonstrate: Imagine you were rolling two six-sided dice. You have a 1 in 36 change of getting a roll that sums to 12. You have a 2 in 36 chance of getting a roll that sums to 11. If you were to get some sort of flat bonus and now add a 1 to your roll, you'll find you have a 3 in 36 change of getting a 12. You also get a 3 in 36 chance of getting an 11. Not only are you getting 12s more often, but you are now getting them with the same frequency that you were getting 11s. Now, imagine there is no seperate to-hit and damage roll. Imagine that the higher you roll, the more damage you do, and that you have to roll above a target number to even hit. The problem here is, with really hard targets, you rarely hit, but your hit will always be very devastating since you had to roll so high. This may not be the problem, I don't have access to CCP's code, but this smells plausible.
AlphaM Doom Guard	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:27:00 - [13] Just wreckings ive noticed this on too
Vol Jbolaz Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Raste Originally by: Pottsey I have 1 small laser to aggro rats with a optimal of 16km and a falloff of 3.6km. So thatÆs a 19.6km range max, No, that's a 50% chance to hit at 19.6km. You should look at the turret overview on this site that explains how falloff and optimal work. More percisely, it is a 50% range penalty to chance to hit. At Optimal + 2xFalloff you have a 96% range penalty to change to hit. Mind you, you can try to compensate for these penalties using target painters, or against targets with MWDs, but... as I just described in the previous post, I think the engine is off slightly. Not sure.
Karasu Kaizoku Caldari Shikei Army	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Mr Bondy I had this a while back - setup a destroyer full of T2 kit just for fun and noticed my 125's were hitting at 100km+ Cant remeber the exact value but it was significantly over the optimal+ 2* falloff To the test server.... Destroyers get a +50% Range bonus per level... And I have seen this too, I'm flying a Rifter with 150MM Auto's with EMP ammo. I have like a 570 Opi range with a 4.7 KM falloff. But I have hit people from 20KM off.* -
Anominity Amarr Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:48:00 - [16] I have noticed this too, and it is with Wreckings only, seems we have gone back to the old system with wreckings, where it is 1 in 100 shots, not 1 in 100 hits.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:59:00 - [17] Wrecking shots have a flat chance to happen. Pat opt + 2xFalloff, your chance to land a hit is close to 0, but it will never be 0. The devs are playing around with missile balancing (AoEFalloff), so the chance that they're doing the same with guns is pretty high too. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Zed Nash	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Pottsey ItÆs happened a few times today at first I thought it was just me but last time I watched carefully. I have 1 small laser to aggro rats with a optimal of 16km and a falloff of 3.6km. So thatÆs a 19.6km range max, yet I keep warping in shooting at rats out at 30 to 60km range and hitting. ô2006.12.22 15:28:36 Combat Your Dual Light Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Mordus Rookie, wrecking for 37.6 damage.ö Out at 30 ish km. Shouldnt that be impossbile? Wrecking shots (which account for 1% of all shots fired) ALWAYS hit, regardless of range. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Benco97 Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.22 18:28:00 - [19] Wrecking shots ALWAYS hitting was changed, i'm sure of it, quite long time ago. Latest patch dug up some old code perhaps? "MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2006.12.22 18:37:00 - [20] A few corrections to some posts above. Absolute maxium range = Optimal range + accuracy falloff + accuracy falloff. This is supposedly true for both turrets and electronic warfare. 50% hit chance modification due to range occur at Optimal range + half of accuracy falloff. At Optimal range + accuracy falloff you have a 90% decreased chance of hitting target. Do note, however, that chances to hit target is not 50% or less at the 50% mark, nor is it 10% or less at the 10% mark. At those ranges, your hit chance is merely reduced by the given percentage reduction - prior to this modification your hit chance may well be above 100% since it is essentially a dividend between your conditions and the target's conditions. Hitting a battleship with a frigate turret at Optimal + accuracy falloff is child's play, 90% reduction or not. It might be, however, that the upper limit for hit chances have been removed and that the to-hit formula is behaving slightly different from what it is supposed to. - EVE is sick.
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.22 19:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Benco97 Wrecking shots ALWAYS hitting was changed, i'm sure of it, quite long time ago. Latest patch dug up some old code perhaps? I remember getting wrecking hits way, way outside my usual maximum range (it'd be miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, wrecking hit...) at the 9CG siege earlier this year. I've never seen it go away since then, so if this was supposedly fixed at some point in time...it wasn't, or it has been back for quite a while now. ------ Quartermaster, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.12.22 19:25:00 - [22] Are you doing missions in a high population system like aunia (I hate that system so much but my only lvl4 agents sends me there half the time, only system i ever get 30 second lag in)? I know in Aunia you might aswell just ignore what your overlay says, half the time it still shows them at the range they started when they are small frigates orbiting up close. Shoot half the time I have ships blow up before damage even registers on their icon. Oh well, aunia sucks.
Vol Jbolaz Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.22 19:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Ithildin A few corrections to some posts above. Absolute maxium range = Optimal range + accuracy falloff + accuracy falloff. This is supposedly true for both turrets and electronic warfare. 50% hit chance modification due to range occur at Optimal range + half of accuracy falloff. At Optimal range + accuracy falloff you have a 90% decreased chance of hitting target. Do note, however, that chances to hit target is not 50% or less at the 50% mark, nor is it 10% or less at the 10% mark. At those ranges, your hit chance is merely reduced by the given percentage reduction - prior to this modification your hit chance may well be above 100% since it is essentially a dividend between your conditions and the target's conditions. Hitting a battleship with a frigate turret at Optimal + accuracy falloff is child's play, 90% reduction or not. It might be, however, that the upper limit for hit chances have been removed and that the to-hit formula is behaving slightly different from what it is supposed to. To clarify and set the record straight.... I refer everyone to the Tracking Guide and the To-Hit Formula. At Optimal, and at any range less than optimal, there is no penalty. Meaning there is no minimum range for turrets. At Optimal + Falloff, there is a 50% penalty. That doesn't mean you have a 50% chance to hit. That means that after you figure your chance to hit based on tracking and signature, you take half. At Optimal + 2x Falloff, there is a 94% penalty. Beyond Optimal + 2x Falloff, the penalty increases, but it never reaches 100%. Which means there is always, always, a small chance that you will hit your target regardless of how far away it is. The bigger it is, and the slower it is, the easier it is to hit at extreme ranges. There is no absolute maximum range for turrets. What is at issue here is not whether or not you can hit at extreme ranges, but why those hits tend to be wrecking shots. As to EW, I do think there is an absolute max range since they do not use the standard turret formula (they don't care about tracking or signature).
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.22 21:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Ithildin A few corrections to some posts above. Absolute maxium range = Optimal range + accuracy falloff + accuracy falloff. This is supposedly true for both turrets and electronic warfare. 50% hit chance modification due to range occur at Optimal range + half of accuracy falloff. At Optimal range + accuracy falloff you have a 90% decreased chance of hitting target. Do note, however, that chances to hit target is not 50% or less at the 50% mark, nor is it 10% or less at the 10% mark. At those ranges, your hit chance is merely reduced by the given percentage reduction - prior to this modification your hit chance may well be above 100% since it is essentially a dividend between your conditions and the target's conditions. Hitting a battleship with a frigate turret at Optimal + accuracy falloff is child's play, 90% reduction or not. It might be, however, that the upper limit for hit chances have been removed and that the to-hit formula is behaving slightly different from what it is supposed to. Think this is the weirdness that comes from the rather complex calculation that now takes place, there's the part that calculates the effect of randomness ( from scratch to wrecking ) the part that calculates the range effects, and the part that calculates the tracking effect, and the sigradius factor modififying it all. Don't know what modifyes what, and what's taken as base. But it sounds likely, that both range and randomness are modifiers on the ability to hit based on tracking modified by sig radius differences. Which would indeed potentially explain the weirdness. But I'm unsure on the randomness mainly, scratching till excellent hit are part of the tracking calculation in someway, cause my tests have show that better tracking means better hits, but wrecking seems to be a fixed percentage of all hits, which would assume that it's seperate from the other random factor, which is another possible reason for this strange behavior.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.22 21:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Vol Jbolaz Originally by: Ithildin A few corrections to some posts above. Absolute maxium range = Optimal range + accuracy falloff + accuracy falloff. This is supposedly true for both turrets and electronic warfare. 50% hit chance modification due to range occur at Optimal range + half of accuracy falloff. At Optimal range + accuracy falloff you have a 90% decreased chance of hitting target. Do note, however, that chances to hit target is not 50% or less at the 50% mark, nor is it 10% or less at the 10% mark. At those ranges, your hit chance is merely reduced by the given percentage reduction - prior to this modification your hit chance may well be above 100% since it is essentially a dividend between your conditions and the target's conditions. Hitting a battleship with a frigate turret at Optimal + accuracy falloff is child's play, 90% reduction or not. It might be, however, that the upper limit for hit chances have been removed and that the to-hit formula is behaving slightly different from what it is supposed to. To clarify and set the record straight.... I refer everyone to the Tracking Guide and the To-Hit Formula. At Optimal, and at any range less than optimal, there is no penalty. Meaning there is no minimum range for turrets. At Optimal + Falloff, there is a 50% penalty. That doesn't mean you have a 50% chance to hit. That means that after you figure your chance to hit based on tracking and signature, you take half. At Optimal + 2x Falloff, there is a 94% penalty. Beyond Optimal + 2x Falloff, the penalty increases, but it never reaches 100%. Which means there is always, always, a small chance that you will hit your target regardless of how far away it is. The bigger it is, and the slower it is, the easier it is to hit at extreme ranges. There is no absolute maximum range for turrets. What is at issue here is not whether or not you can hit at extreme ranges, but why those hits tend to be wrecking shots. As to EW, I do think there is an absolute max range since they do not use the standard turret formula (they don't care about tracking or signature). No that's not the question, the question is that why such a large part of hits that happen outside normal predictable maximum range ( which does exist, effectively atleast, less then 0.1% chance to hit, isn't effective range ;-) ) The most likely explaination being that wrecking hits are still a percentage of all shots, instead of all hits.
Shinjuro The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.22 21:27:00 - [26] When a wrecker happends, it will hit from any range, any target, moving at any speed. Take a Naglfar for instance with Xlarge arty fitted. It says in the description that it is useless at close range. Let us say he is using EMP (close range ammo). Regardless of his optimal and falloff, when he gets a wrecking shot (ouch!!) he can/will hit anything. He could hit a crow orbiting him at 7 km/s.
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun	Posted - 2006.12.22 21:59:00 - [27] About a year ago I hit a Raptor orbiting my Artypest at 3km with a transversal of 3500m/s. It was wrecking, he exploded. I think there is still a chance to hit with wreckings, regardless of your normal chance of hitting. Eh, it adds a random chance to combat, so I like it. Nothing is more boring that being assured of the outcome of a fight. ex-Occassus Republica <3

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