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CCP; Remove BPCs please

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Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 13:24:00 - [1] Dear CCP, The sole problem with Tech 1's market crash wasn't just the "items available on NPC market thingy". I actually think the main problem was the ease to create blueprint copies. This was somewhat fixed with the limited license implementation, but the problem is still there I think. The problem now is that virtually everyone has the ability to be selfsustaining productionwise by cheaply purchasing near to unlimited blueprint copies of a specific item. For instance, a person who buys a 300 run (say ME 35) 425mm Railgun BPC probably never will have to buy a second one, even though he might be massproducing them and selling them. And considering ME is automatically transferred from original BP to copy, the drawback with copies (a.k.a not being able to research it) is of little concern. Add to this that the buyer probably got it for only a tiny fraction of the BP original's cost. The direct effect of this is what I think have caused the market "collapse". The market isn't really a place for manufacturers no more, it's more of a flee market where used up goods can be bought at mineral prices (often even below that) from persons who no longer need them. This is because blueprints/copies are so easy to come over that the manufacturer in EVE has become virtually unnecessary. I think we will suffer same effect when Tech2 is implemented. Even though the originals will be harder to obtain I suppose the copies will be as easy to produce as with Tech1 (I'm not sure about this though so it might backfire, in which case I apologize). As we have seen in the case with Miner II's, this will mean the profit for the manufacturers will soon drop to zero again, as the near-unlimited BPC's people will produce (we all know that most of the in-game economists of EVE are not very skilled ones in real life, tending more to short term profit than securing long term income. It suffices with one person owning a rare original to begin producing copies of it for the price downspiral to begin) will make the market crash. What I am proposing is this - remove BPC's. Monopolies such as the Miner 2 one ain't all bad - they are really more realistic, concerning patented goods in the real world. And as for people whining about an item costing 40k to produce, yet selling for 2M - get real! Sellers wouldn't sell them at that price if they in fact didn't sell at that price, hence people are considering them worth that. Just because YOU can't afford it doesn't make it unfair in any way. It's called the market, and it's part of the game). Make agents distribute maybe three or four originals that cannot be copied (at least with the current ease), then keep them at that quantity. I firmly believe this would add more colour to the game and more depth to the politics within. Thank you /Nightfang
Al Thorr	Posted - 2003.11.26 13:31:00 - [2] I gotta agree with this . Eliminate all copies . Or at least limit the license to 1. Regards Al Thor I Am in shape, ROUND is a shape
Omniwar	Posted - 2003.11.26 13:59:00 - [3] So all those peaple and Corps should be burned by this? It would be devastating for alot of peaple if they would log on and relise they have NO BPc in thier hangers. Changes are needed and those changes might come with new skills and peaple research thier original blueprints to Tech 2, but it order to prevent the same thing happening again I dont know what the best solution would be. Perhaps only 10 pessible copies being made of battleship blueprints, 20 for cruisers, 30 and so on for each smaller item, thus making the system as it was meant to be, copies being made for the Corps them self to pransport with them to lower security systems. At least limit the amount of copies being made before higher tech level is implemented. *Spawn of the Devil*
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:04:00 - [4] I'm not saying that existing BPCs should be deleted. I am, just as you, saying that the ability to make copies in the first place should be a lot harder to make. Otherwise the Tech2 market will probably be spoiled the same way Tech1 is now...
Snidd	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:05:00 - [5] STFU NightFang u should stop Scamming people on BS with courior mission before u even speak. U have scammed for over 1 bilj
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:09:00 - [6] Edited by: Nightfang on 26/11/2003 14:17:05 Point of relevance: Nill Actual money gained by me for that scam: GREATLY exaggerated. Now stick to the point and let us make this game better, shall we, kiddo? (Edit: Btw, I stopped doing that scam the second a Polaris member asked me to stop. Hence, supposed we actually care what you have to say, I am entitled to post and voice my concerns)
ga'ia	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:16:00 - [7] I totally agree, remove the ability to make BPCs. Ever wondered why all markets are crashing? __________________________________________________________
Omniwar	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:19:00 - [8] Nightfang seems you have some lovers out there But it doesnt change the fact that if things will not change before new tech is released then we will have the excact same problem. Noone of us want that *Spawn of the Devil*
Blueblooded	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:20:00 - [9] I think it worked quite well with miner II bp, it took quite some time before the prize dropped and (if I'm not entirely missinformed) are still selling with a good profit margin. If the tech2 bp distributing system make sure that not to many originals are in the game you won't experience the tech1 "problem" Note: There isn't realy a problem with tech1 since everyone were supposed to be able to produce tech1 ships, modules and ammo. (so I have heard) ---------------------------------------- "The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
Eurydike	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:24:00 - [10] Edited by: Eurydike on 26/11/2003 14:25:00 The only thing is... Currently our (HDY's), and I think pretty much every corp's SOP is to research the original, copy it, use the copy for production while further researching the original... And it would be really annoying not to be able to do that anymore... Aside from that, agreed, BPCs ruin(ed) the economy. -------------------------------------- Sarela "Eurydike" Taris Vote Stavros for Kojak's brother.
Amin	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:28:00 - [11] Main problem with tech 1 pc is that the max number of licences u can have is too high. Someone who buy a 1500 run drone bpc will almost never need to buy another bpc. A simple solution would be to vaslty reduce the max number of licences that can be made, say max of 10 licences for equipment. Also, increase the time taken to make blueprint copies, so that its not possible to make masses of bpc in virtually no time at all. Perhaps a more radical solution could be to have a time limit on the bpc, in which time it must be used or will be useless. For example, a 300 run tach bpc with a 1 month expiration time. Just some of my quick thoughts Drink StarsiÖ Relation Co-ordinator Caldari State Citizen ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:32:00 - [12] I agree that would be a solution, Amin. I've also considered the solution of implementing so that copying can only be done by characters actually docked at the location of the lab. Problem is that is kinnda radical and would raise too many negative voices
Snidd	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:37:00 - [13] How come u tryed to sell to one off my friend's a dom with courir
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:40:00 - [14] Maybe that was before Polaris asked me to stop and I did so?
Amin	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:43:00 - [15] Quote: I've also considered the solution of implementing so that copying can only be done by characters actually docked at the location of the lab. Do u mean they have to stay docked in that station for the whole time the bp is copying? If so..err...ouch..that would make the things a little boring. But wont affect the production of bpc too much as most ppl have alt to do research anyway. Drink StarsiÖ Relation Co-ordinator Caldari State Citizen ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snidd	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:48:00 - [16] So the Polaris told u that yesterday night
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:51:00 - [17] Snidd; I am proud that people evidently are so afraid of that scam that they even think my ghost is now conducting scams, but I've not been doing it since then. And I've not been denying it even WHILE I was doing it, why would I be doing it now? Amin; I agree that would be all too drastical. But even though I don't agree with that solution myself, it does remain a solution. And it's even kinnda logical when you think about it...
Paddyman	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:54:00 - [18] Edited by: Paddyman on 26/11/2003 14:55:05 Yea Nightfang you are a well known griefer/exploiter and scammer. What would you know about this game. The sooner your kind gets out of this game the better.
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.11.26 14:56:00 - [19] It's all a bit of a mute point now, imho. megacyte & zydrine rose again significantly again this weekend, and it's set to get worse I think. You can have billions of BPC's in your hangar, they're sod all use without minerals. If you couple that with the rumour that they're going to nerf Empire space mining of low end mins, I don't think the BPC situation will matter in the slightest. The finished goods are gonna go up in price, regardless of how many people 'could' build them. Watch them BPC's become worthless, it's happening already, every man and his dog has an Apoc/Scorp orig these days. Minerals to build with - now that's a different kettle of fish
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.26 15:00:00 - [20] Blueprint licenses need to be removed period. If you can't afford the cost of the original, you shouldn't have the ability to manufacture the product. Blueprint licensing right now sets up a competing market against manufactured product. A person can buy a battleship blueprint license for less than the production cost + profit margin of someone manufacturing the the same product. THe buyer of the bpc views it as a savings as they don't have to come up with the sale amount of the finished product upfront. Given that demand will never outstrip the number of suppliers except in monopolistic situations, +12 hours to make a copy is immaterial. What is pertinent is that a manufacturer has to invest the production cost in materials to even manufacture a product. While a person selling blueprint licenses currently invests nothing to make the license. And any costs applied to the copy process with the upcoming TL2 will only set a bottom floor price on the licenses. Which in turns sets a floor price on the items a manufacturer can produce, despite the fact he has to go through more work gathering the required materials than a person selling licenses. People saying small corps and freelancers will get nerfed have no excuse with the TL2 blueprints as they won't be availible for purchase on the market. Therefore they have the same opportunity as everyone else to obtain a blueprint through the new distribution system without a massive upfront isk investment. Those that say they'd be unfairly affected on the TL1 items are just being skints. A 5 man corporation can earn the isk for any of the races' premiere cruisers mining Scordite within a week. Blueprint licensing needs to be removed. The existing unlimited blueprint copies need to be switched to a limited license and allowed to die out. And before someone comes up with the accusation that it's easy for me to say that, the Tempest blueprint we use to manufacture from is an unlimited copy and I'm more than prepared to give up that copy to level the playing field. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
SUNscatcher	Posted - 2003.11.26 15:03:00 - [21] What I have suggested in other posts is that originals have a set number of runs before it expires and any copies made from that original subtract licensed runs from the original so the total production capability stays constant. I feel this is a much better way to control the supply side of the equation because it can be "tweaked" by cpp easily based upon what they are seeing in the market(assuming they even pay atttention to such things going on in the game). If you can catch me you can have me.
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.11.26 15:08:00 - [22] Jash, It's too late, and largely immaterial for Tech I, bearing in mind that this is the Tech level that everyone is supposed to have access to. TomB's already stated that Tech I won't be restricted any further in respect to copies - they want people to have them. And really, these days, it's not the number of manufacturers (people with a BPC) determining the price anymore...
voogru	Posted - 2003.11.26 15:23:00 - [23] How about limiting it to a skill? For example: "Blueprint Copying" Rank 4 +10 runs allow per blueprint copy for items, +5 runs per blueprint copy for drones, +3 runs per blueprint copy for ships Required skills: Research 4 (Or even 5 maybe) Sciece 5 ------- Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 827.3 damage.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.26 15:39:00 - [24] Quote: How about limiting it to a skill? For example: "Blueprint Copying" Rank 4 +10 runs allow per blueprint copy for items, +5 runs per blueprint copy for drones, +3 runs per blueprint copy for ships Required skills: Research 4 (Or even 5 maybe) Sciece 5 TL2 will allegedly have some interesting copy requirements. But in the end that's just time to an alt that never leaves a station. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Devestator	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:07:00 - [25] Quote: Blueprint licensing right now sets up a competing market against manufactured product. A person can buy a battleship blueprint license for less than the production cost + profit margin of someone manufacturing the the same product. THe buyer of the bpc views it as a savings as they don't have to come up with the sale amount of the finished product upfront. Right now there is no point in Buying a BPc. You can basically buy anything for production cost. This includes all ships. So just get all the minerals you need for the product sell them and buy what you were looking for. I have seen Thorax's for 5 mill, Blackbirds for under 3 mill, Arma for under 53 mill and the list goes on. Maybe the only BS's where manufacturers sees a profit is the typhon because not many people make them. So when you Purchase a BPc from someone it is equal to the amount of profit they would have made off it if they manufactured it themselves. So people should be handing out Blue print copies for free
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:24:00 - [26] Quote: Quote: Blueprint licensing right now sets up a competing market against manufactured product. A person can buy a battleship blueprint license for less than the production cost + profit margin of someone manufacturing the the same product. THe buyer of the bpc views it as a savings as they don't have to come up with the sale amount of the finished product upfront. I have seen Thorax's for 5 mill, Blackbirds for under 3 mill, Arma for under 53 mill and the list goes on. Maybe the only BS's where manufacturers sees a profit is the typhon because not many people make them. So when you Purchase a BPc from someone it is equal to the amount of profit they would have made off it if they manufactured it themselves. So people should be handing out Blue print copies for free There aren't many things on sale on the market that a professional builder can't build cheaper - i.e. make a good profit. Those that are, are bought and resold at a higher margin pretty quick. You just need to know what you're doing. Right now there is no point in Buying a BPc. You can basically buy anything for production cost. This includes all ships. So just get all the minerals you need for the product sell them and buy what you were looking for. Most of the stuff you're referring to as having seen cheap, are the one off's from trade channel - 'need to sell my existing ship cheap now so I can raise money to buy my new one cheap now'.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:52:00 - [27] Quote: Quote: Blueprint licensing right now sets up a competing market against manufactured product. A person can buy a battleship blueprint license for less than the production cost + profit margin of someone manufacturing the the same product. THe buyer of the bpc views it as a savings as they don't have to come up with the sale amount of the finished product upfront. Right now there is no point in Buying a BPc. You can basically buy anything for production cost. This includes all ships. So just get all the minerals you need for the product sell them and buy what you were looking for. I have seen Thorax's for 5 mill, Blackbirds for under 3 mill, Arma for under 53 mill and the list goes on. Maybe the only BS's where manufacturers sees a profit is the typhon because not many people make them. So when you Purchase a BPc from someone it is equal to the amount of profit they would have made off it if they manufactured it themselves. So people should be handing out Blue print copies for free You don't manufacture do you? Nobody that's selling items on the market does so at production cost. Maybe your production cost. But definately not at their production cost. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Wulfnor	Posted - 2003.11.26 16:57:00 - [28] Edited by: Wulfnor on 26/11/2003 17:00:11 Quote: Blueprint licensing right now sets up a competing market against manufactured product. I would point out that BPCs are at best half of the competition for manufactured products. Pirate loot has a chilling effect as well. In any case I very much doubt that copies will be removed as an option. Such a direct approach has rarely been CCPs way in the past. What little we know/guess of Tech 2 shows that they are not takeing such an approach for the immediate future. Perhaps we shall learn more specifics at the dev chat next Thursday.
Devestator	Posted - 2003.11.26 17:07:00 - [29] I have PE4. It cost me 4.9 mill to make a Thorax. People sell them on the Market for 5.2 mill. Why am going to manufacture these if all i am going to make is .3 mill. If i put it on the market for 6 mill it never sells. I don't have the resources to manufacture BS's yet but what is the max profit people are making off them? 10 mill at most? I guess BS's are the only good thing to produce.
SUNscatcher	Posted - 2003.11.26 17:41:00 - [30] I can buy a full set of heavy drone bpc's for under 500K just about anyday I want. All researched to min levels >200 with 1500 runs. Its this type of saturation that is killing the manufacturing end. Yes its too late to fix tech 1 but not too late to fix tech 2. Originals need to have a fixed number of production runs(thus added a wear factor for bp's) and any copies generated subtract runs from the original. Hopefully players selling under manufacturing cost would tire of having to generate an income somewhere else to continue their market griefing. If you can catch me you can have me.

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