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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.26 17:51:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
I can buy a full set of heavy drone bpc's for under 500K just about anyday I want. All researched to min levels >200 with 1500 runs.
Its this type of saturation that is killing the manufacturing end. Yes its too late to fix tech 1 but not too late to fix tech 2. Originals need to have a fixed number of production runs(thus added a wear factor for bp's) and any copies generated subtract runs from the original.
Hopefully players selling under manufacturing cost would tire of having to generate an income somewhere else to continue their market griefing.
How do you blame the effects of the copy on the original? Removing the ability to copy the original would force you to pay 7m isk for an Ogre blueprint original.
Figuring a 20k markup over production cost, a person would have to manufacture 350 Ogres, for sale or for personal use, to recoup the investment of the blueprint original. That is what's called a Long Term Investment in a market without monopolies.
You keep trying to blame the failings of the copy on the original blueprint. The only failing the original blueprint has is its possible to copy it.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Deros
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Posted - 2003.11.26 18:03:00 -
[32]
maybe in the same way that productions on copies is limited, the number of copies that can be made from an original should be too.
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SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.11.26 19:42:00 -
[33]
Jash I didnt' advocate removing copying blueprints. I advocated limiting All original bp's production capability and subtraction from that capability licensed runs created in the form of a BP copy.
Unlimited copies equates to making it very easy for just about anyone to manufacture just about any item. When too many people make the same item then supply of that item outstrips demand for that item and profits selling that item decline as the retail price for that item declines.
Let ccp introduce just ONE original blueprint for the harvester drone in the game and watch what happens to the price of harvester drones.
Let ccp introduce 100 original blueprints and see that same effect but in an accelerated fashion.
Let ccp introduce One original with a limited production capability and see a minimal effect on current harvester pricing.
Let ccp introduce 100 originals with a limited production capability and the price will decline but a crash wouldn't.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Rutherford
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Posted - 2003.11.26 20:14:00 -
[34]
Another reason for the rediculious prices of ships and equipment is that there are a finite number of player in this game, and when they get bored of one item, they sell it and get the next best thing.
The RESALE market is eliminating the manufacturer right now. Players are selling their unwanted ships and equipment below production cost to liquidate some assets within a timely fashion.
This is why you see teir 1 bs's selling for less than the going prod costs at minerals base costs. Tier 2 bs's are still doing okay in profit, but that too will dwindle over time.
I am not sure what the fix for any of this might be, your guess' are as good as mine.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.26 20:17:00 -
[35]
I think this thread is trying to fix something that is not broken. The Devs already fixed the infinite BPC problem. Anyone that has looked at the copying of Tech II BPs (miner2) can see that they take as long to copy as to build (actually, I believe building is faster).
Why not wait to see if CCP has not already fixed this issue.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.26 20:24:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 26/11/2003 20:25:10
Quote:
Jash I didnt' advocate removing copying blueprints. I advocated limiting All original bp's production capability and subtraction from that capability licensed runs created in the form of a BP copy.
Unlimited copies equates to making it very easy for just about anyone to manufacture just about any item. When too many people make the same item then supply of that item outstrips demand for that item and profits selling that item decline as the retail price for that item declines.
Let ccp introduce just ONE original blueprint for the harvester drone in the game and watch what happens to the price of harvester drones.
Let ccp introduce 100 original blueprints and see that same effect but in an accelerated fashion.
Let ccp introduce One original with a limited production capability and see a minimal effect on current harvester pricing.
Let ccp introduce 100 originals with a limited production capability and the price will decline but a crash wouldn't.
The game's economy has taken care of itself when allowed to. It's not a matter of the number of suppliers nor how much they can produce. Not directly. It is:
1) People who should not have had the ability to manufacture an item getting it through the purchase of a vastly cheaper unlimited copy. This allowed them to supply themselves, removing their portion of the demand from the market, without as much concern in recouping their investment as someone that purchased an original.
A Thorax unlimited copy purchased for 10m isk = having to produce 10 Thoraxes to recoup their investment. Versus the 60 required for the person that purchased an original. Assuming a 1m markup over production cost on market value.
2) People using the 'Do It Yourself' blueprint licenses removing their portion of the demand from the market.
A Scorpion ME 5 bp license runs approximately 8m isk atm, 2m isk less than the profit margin I have on Scorpions. Given equal cost for materials, a person purchasing the license at 8m and manufacturing it themselves will save 2m isk versus buying one manufactured from me. I can reduce my profit margin to meet the profit margin on a license. But I can only go so far as I have the material investment that must be met to manufacture a Scorpion (aka the minerals). While a bp license has 0 investment and could be sold for 2m isk if desired.
You want artificial limits introduced to force the market to conform to expectations. The NPC mineral demand, limiting production batches on original. Those are all artificial limits which removes market competition. Without those artificial limits the market will force you out of it if you are unable to compete.
Some further numbers from Heimatar.
Original Tempest Blueprints sold since release:
2
Original Typhoon Blueprints sold since release:
2
Original Rupture Blueprints sold since release:
43
Original Stabber Blueprints sold since release:
2 (Stabber bps have been mia from the market for some time now)
Original Rifter Blueprints sold since release:
318
Original Probe Blueprints sold since release:
381
Original Hoarder Blueprints sold since release:
127
Original Mammoth Blueprints sold since release:
107
I own originals for all these ships except Tempest, Typhoon and Stabber. I have a Tempest and a Stabber copy. The vast majority of the ships being manufactured, both for sale on the market and for personal use, comes from unnerfed original licenses that people purchases for 10%-25% of the original's cost. Or bp licenses that people are purchasing for around .9% of the orignal's cost.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.11.26 20:28:00 -
[37]
Copies are great for within the corp use but make making copies affect the original.
Lets say you make a copy and it lowers the recearched level of the original by one level and when you produce one maximum batch size from the original they also drop one level.
This will cause the BP's to need more time in the science lab being improved and thus make all the items coming out all that more expensive.
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SUNscatcher
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Posted - 2003.11.26 21:23:00 -
[38]
Hmm sounded like you agreed with part of my point but as usual you just couldn't say that jash and had to "put into your own words", what ever.
I can buy a thorax 1 run me20 at around 300K, 10-20% of an originals price??? Need to check your math bud cause for cruisers this is typical.
I'm not trying to force anything just eliminate the unlimited supply of unrealistically cheap bp's out in the game and then let the market take care of itself.
Fester I think your idea would ultimately result in the same thing as mine, reduce the total number of bp's out there. I all for any idea that has that effect.
If you can catch me you can have me. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.26 21:45:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Hmm sounded like you agreed with part of my point but as usual you just couldn't say that jash and had to "put into your own words", what ever.
Hardly. Originals do not need limits on the batches they can produce as the are obtained by making an investment. Any static limit to the number of batches an original can produce threatens to cost the person their investment. It's that simple.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Hakera
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Posted - 2003.11.26 21:54:00 -
[40]
Maybe a limited time copyright to prevent copying of the bp for say a month. Or the way tech 2 bp copy times were, you would potentially lose a lot of isk (miner 2's) if you copied and did not produce. I assume that will be the same for the other bps??
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Kalar Vrask
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Posted - 2003.11.26 21:56:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kalar Vrask on 26/11/2003 21:57:44
Quote:
Some further numbers from Heimatar.
Original Tempest Blueprints sold since release:
2
Original Typhoon Blueprints sold since release:
2
Original Rupture Blueprints sold since release:
43
Original Stabber Blueprints sold since release:
2 (Stabber bps have been mia from the market for some time now)
Original Rifter Blueprints sold since release:
318
Original Probe Blueprints sold since release:
381
Original Hoarder Blueprints sold since release:
127
Original Mammoth Blueprints sold since release:
107
Of course these figures are ludicrously low because they're Minmatar ships, and the suck hard. Had he chosen a decent races ships to pull figures from, such as Amarr or Caldari, the numbers would have been far higher. 
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Kalar Vrask
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Posted - 2003.11.26 22:02:00 -
[42]
On a serious note, I don't see what the problem was with the original idea of allowing 2 copies per original BP, perhaps even limiting those to no mineral research.
That would have allowed original buyers to make a backup or recoup a decent amount of their investment, run multiple factories etc without swamping the market.
End of the day though, too late now, this has been round the houses a million times, tech 1 is almost dead anyway, let's just hope they don't let Tech 2 go as badly pear-shaped.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.11.26 22:07:00 -
[43]
Jash, my Idea would not limit the BP originals production limit, it would still be "unlimited".
Lets take a Scorp BP as an example.
Max number of runs possible to make a copy for is as far as I know 1.
This would meen that if you researched it to mineral efficiency 6 and build a scorp it drops to efficiency 5.
The same with making a copy, making the copy would drop the efficiency to 5.
If the BP is recearched to lev 0 then it would remain at lev 0.
This would not in itself lower the number of copies out there but the copies there are would become alot more expensive, especially at higher recearched levels and the ships produced from the originals would would jump in price too.
Both effects that would suport the producer players.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.26 22:44:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Jash, my Idea would not limit the BP originals production limit, it would still be "unlimited".
Lets take a Scorp BP as an example.
Max number of runs possible to make a copy for is as far as I know 1.
This would meen that if you researched it to mineral efficiency 6 and build a scorp it drops to efficiency 5.
The same with making a copy, making the copy would drop the efficiency to 5.
If the BP is recearched to lev 0 then it would remain at lev 0.
This would not in itself lower the number of copies out there but the copies there are would become alot more expensive, especially at higher recearched levels and the ships produced from the originals would would jump in price too.
Both effects that would suport the producer players.
Manufacturing from the original dropping the level of research on the blueprint? Nobody would bother researching the blueprints any more.
A single Mineral Efficiency research lvl for a Scorpion is around 3 days worth of research. There would be absolutely no reason for me to stick that blueprint into a research slot for 3 days of research to lose that research from a single production run.
The reason for it is nobody would render a blueprint incapable of being used for 3 days for a single run that takes 4 hours to produce. So everyone would be manufacturing from unresearched blueprints.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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