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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:22:00 -
[31]
You might consider it a disservice to the members whilst others call if a service to the greater whole, they're taking the heat now so no-one else has to. In keeping these nameless aggressors tied up they're providing a valuable service to the next ones on the list.
Something for that next someone to consider and possibly fund.
Ourselves Alone |
MacDuncan
Minmatar
Unknown Society
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:23:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: pershphanie
I ended FE at the moment I knew we had no future because I felt moving on was best for everyone in the alliance.
An honest answer, nice...but you "moved on"...you weren't defeated or did you surrendered? 
And btw.:
I don't like or dislike you, i just dislike the attidude "if you can't win, join them" in general. And this attidude seems quite strong atm in EvE, at least for individual players...
Anyhow:
Nobody wants to loose his face, so in most cases nobody would admit a defeat or would surrender to any aggressor. Even if it would be honorable...
--
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
Scared Mofo
Minmatar
Diamonds inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:24:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Scared Mofo on 24/12/2006 11:30:34
Originally by: pershphanie
So back to the topic;
I'm not advocating running away at the slightest sign of danger. If an alliance still has a realistic plan to win then by all means they should persue that. If that means staying and fighting then that is what they should do.
What I am saying is that if an alliance has no realistic plan for victory then continuing a futile war is a disservice to the members and a huge lie. In that case it the alliance should end the war immediatly and persue other goals.
I still do not understand. Why is fighting for vanity and the lie that you are "fighting for your space" considered honorable in eve?
imo it should be disregarded that when the five attacked you, you imediately naped them and when you resigned from FE you joined BoB, you personal flaws should be kept out of this discution. However you are in BoB and you want ASCN to kill themselves, because you know very well that an alliance can't be killed in this game unless they commit sepuku. Everyone knows you want ASCN to lose, duh so even if this is not a propaganda war it can't be regarded as nothing else but propaganda so nice try.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:26:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Zhaine
Hmmmn skipped half the thread so far but:
When RA had only C-J left almost everyone else in Eve would have said they were in a hopeless position, with a huge blob of allianced bearing down on their final station. I may dislike RA for many legitimate reasons but give them credit for knowing that they could in fact come back, and that however bad their situation looked to everyone else, there was a point to carrying on fighting.
Your enemy always has a weakspot, however small (or in the case of RA, the huge weakspot of critically weak or small alliances foolishly installed in their former territory). And once your enemy relaxes and think they've won there's always still a point in striking.
Well RA had a good, realistic plan for victory, still had their resources to make isk (complexes), and still had their member base intact and able to work as a teem as well. Personally I have all the respect in the world for RA and what they have accomplished.
However I don't think you are understanding my point. I am not saying people should give up when outnumbered or suffer a defeat in battle. As long as your alliance has a realistic plan, then by all means, keep the war going. I am speaking of alliances who are on a direct path to absolute failure. When they no longer have a realistic plan for victory. When they think they can keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Originally by: Zhaine
Anyway, even if your alliance is ghost of its former self you can, at least in certain circumstances, make life for the new occupiers very very difficult with a gurilla style war, and for some people that is enough having seen their territory and property taken by their enemies.
Sure you CAN do that. But really, what does that accomplish? Is it really better to dwell on bitterness than start fresh?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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Viki Girl
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:31:00 -
[35]
Originally by: MacDuncan
Erm....i maybe lost it within the last months of reading this forum, persh:
Where did YOU admit the defeat of F-E or surrendered to ATUK before you actually turned 180¦ and joined them later on?
Most of your post leaves (or should at least) a bitter taste to all ppl knowing some stories...
You lost years, not month ago, boy! :)
And to answer your question: At the very same time! :P
I as ex- member of HUN Corp. experienced the death of FA, IMP, F-E in first person. From all this, F-E's death was the only one wich was "good" and fun! F-E had 50 - 100 man fleets to the very end. But that time the dreadnoughts arrived into game, and F-E was in poor industrial shape, and simply put, was unable to field enough capital ships. Pers as a great leader, admitted this, and comed up with the MASSIVE and I mean the BIGEST IN GAME BACKSTABBING plan ever!! (was soo cool.. :D )And F-E turned 180 But hey it was cool, F-E members had a lot of fun, we had lot of fights, killed dreadnoughts, captures stations, killed pos-es with BS only, fighted under .5's best fleet commanders ect ect. F-E did not layed down, and rolled over at that time.
Oh the beautiful past , oh the nostalgy :P
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:32:00 -
[36]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 24/12/2006 11:33:18
Originally by: Kcel Chim
...Admitting defeat requires a great man....
Originally by: anon BoB leader
Last night was an 'anomoly' for different reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with skill or who were the better pvpers
Oh god I can't help myself.
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:45:00 -
[37]
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 11:58:07
Originally by: MacDuncan
Originally by: pershphanie
I ended FE at the moment I knew we had no future because I felt moving on was best for everyone in the alliance.
An honest answer, nice...but you "moved on"...you weren't defeated or did you surrendered?
Neither really. FE didn't disband untill months after the war was over. It is true that we were in a point where victory against ATUK was flat out impossible. We had option A) surrender B) die. I chose the infinitely less popular option C) backstab PA and NBSI and kill them instead of slowly getting killed by atuk. That may not make me a particularly nice person but it was the best thing to do for the members of the alliance.
Originally by: MacDuncan
And btw.:
I don't like or dislike you, i just dislike the attidude "if you can't win, join them" in general. And this attidude seems quite strong atm in EvE, at least for individual players...
That's cool. I don't people ripping on me. Just trying to keep the thread on topic. That wasn't the situation. I left GODS months after FE broke up. I left because gods was doing really bad at the time and it was mostly my fault. I was bad at being the acting CEO. They are doing much better now without me. I found corp management to be tedious and consistantly neglected my corp resonsibilities. I joined DICE (as did several of us) because of the ammount of fun we had against them, because of the great FC's and pilots, and because I loved their fighting style.
Originally by: MacDuncan
Anyhow:
Nobody wants to loose his face, so in most cases nobody would admit a defeat or would surrender to any aggressor. Even if it would be honorable...
But in the long run do you really save more face by destroying your alliance, becoming a bitter shadow of your former selves?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:46:00 -
[38]
Call it human nature. Througout the history human race has shown, time and again, that the notion of the "last stand" is more desirable to the human ego that cutting one's losses and starting anew.
Besides, as already pointed out, "cutting one's losses" is a pointless strategy when faced with total annihilation territory-wise. Individual pilots can replace their ships with relative ease. But when alliance-scale resources are threatened, there simply is no viable way to move them to Empire space.
So you can either go down fighting and lose or abandon everything and lose faster. It's like ejecting from your ship when you face impossible odds in a duel. You are going to lose "everything" anyway, so what are you going to do?
And also, hope dies last. While you fight, there is always a chance you might survive through some happy chance. If you roll over all you can do is die.
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MacDuncan
Minmatar
Unknown Society
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: pershphanie
But in the long run do you really save more face by destroying your alliance, becoming a bitter shadow of your former selves?
Yes, because for normal instance the ppl trying to save their face will gone long before that...leaving for "better goals" or to "move on" (sry, couldn't resist! ) and leaving the grunts with mostly incompetent leaders...at this point most alliances are dead or only a shade of their former state and all will go down the drains.
Or...the other way and in a territorial war:
Become lapdogs "due to their newly gained respect towards each other"...which is essentially also a clear defeat in my eyes.
Either way:
It's all about the leaders' personal pride and a loss isn't something most leaders are able to admitt in an online game.
--
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.12.24 11:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Zhaine
Hmmmn skipped half the thread so far but:
When RA had only C-J left almost everyone else in Eve would have said they were in a hopeless position, with a huge blob of allianced bearing down on their final station. I may dislike RA for many legitimate reasons but give them credit for knowing that they could in fact come back, and that however bad their situation looked to everyone else, there was a point to carrying on fighting.
Your enemy always has a weakspot, however small (or in the case of RA, the huge weakspot of critically weak or small alliances foolishly installed in their former territory). And once your enemy relaxes and think they've won there's always still a point in striking.
Well RA had a good, realistic plan for victory, still had their resources to make isk (complexes), and still had their member base intact and able to work as a teem as well. Personally I have all the respect in the world for RA and what they have accomplished.
However I don't think you are understanding my point. I am not saying people should give up when outnumbered or suffer a defeat in battle. As long as your alliance has a realistic plan, then by all means, keep the war going. I am speaking of alliances who are on a direct path to absolute failure. When they no longer have a realistic plan for victory. When they think they can keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Originally by: Zhaine
Anyway, even if your alliance is ghost of its former self you can, at least in certain circumstances, make life for the new occupiers very very difficult with a gurilla style war, and for some people that is enough having seen their territory and property taken by their enemies.
Sure you CAN do that. But really, what does that accomplish? Is it really better to dwell on bitterness than start fresh?
Not everyone feels that starting fresh every two months like a twobit ***** is a desirable approach.
Ourselves Alone |
pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Zhaine
Hmmmn skipped half the thread so far but:
When RA had only C-J left almost everyone else in Eve would have said they were in a hopeless position, with a huge blob of allianced bearing down on their final station. I may dislike RA for many legitimate reasons but give them credit for knowing that they could in fact come back, and that however bad their situation looked to everyone else, there was a point to carrying on fighting.
Your enemy always has a weakspot, however small (or in the case of RA, the huge weakspot of critically weak or small alliances foolishly installed in their former territory). And once your enemy relaxes and think they've won there's always still a point in striking.
Well RA had a good, realistic plan for victory, still had their resources to make isk (complexes), and still had their member base intact and able to work as a teem as well. Personally I have all the respect in the world for RA and what they have accomplished.
However I don't think you are understanding my point. I am not saying people should give up when outnumbered or suffer a defeat in battle. As long as your alliance has a realistic plan, then by all means, keep the war going. I am speaking of alliances who are on a direct path to absolute failure. When they no longer have a realistic plan for victory. When they think they can keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Originally by: Zhaine
Anyway, even if your alliance is ghost of its former self you can, at least in certain circumstances, make life for the new occupiers very very difficult with a gurilla style war, and for some people that is enough having seen their territory and property taken by their enemies.
Sure you CAN do that. But really, what does that accomplish? Is it really better to dwell on bitterness than start fresh?
Not everyone feels that starting fresh every two months like a twobit ***** is a desirable approach.
You are right. Apparently not many people do. But popular doesn't always = right. Look at the fate of the alliances who stuck around and kept "fighting" after they had lost the war. PA, FA, IMP, FOE, Foundation, etc. In the end how was what they became preferable to being called a twobit ***** on the forums?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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Specops
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:13:00 -
[42]
If an alliance is badly losing a war, why would the aggressor alliance want to extend any sort of surrender terms. What would the surrender be like? We'll take 85 percent of your stuff but you can keep 15 even though we can very easily take all of it?
One has to wonder, when someone like Sirmolle makes a thread offering the corps in the alliance BoB is at war with to peacefully leave the area (and yes this does apply to ASCN but it also applies to pretty much any of the major campaigns BoB has gone on) is Sirmolle experiencing a brief moment of sympathy and charity, or is Sirmolle simply attempting to motivate his alliance members to keep fighting (look how bad were murdering them!) while simultaneously extinguishing that very same feeling inside his adversaries (gee, maybe this is hopeless).
Now I wouldn't expect many if any BoB members to acknowledge this (hey I wouldn't wanna get kicked out of my alliance too), but I think overall, for Sirmolle and BoB, it is far more important for "surrender" threads to reach 10 pages+ than it is to have a corp actually take up the offer.
Just my two cents.
~Specops~ |
sableye
principle of motion
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:14:00 -
[43]
having been in many alliance conflicts and leading a corp I can honestly say you stick around fighting till the end as generally you don;nt have any other options usually everyone bandwagons on your arse you end up with zero friends and generally only other option is going back to empire which for pvp pilots/0.0 corp is no good also even if you are losing a war individual pilots can still have fun with pvp even if the overall thing is your losing.
Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Tundaar
Minmatar
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: pershphanie
When you have no chance of victory, no realistic plan, and can mount no effective defense then why stick around? In that situation staying in the conflict doesn't seem noble or honorable at all. All it seems like a big lie to me. Not to mention it seems like a disservice to everyone who is still willing to fight and die for the alliance.
How about the hypothetical situation where the leader of the aggressors states publicly that no surrender will be taken - that he wants to destroy the Alliance/Corp or whatever . . .at that point there is zero incentive to negotiate terms and the battle may as well be to the last ship
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Kuang
V I R I I
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:30:00 -
[45]
Another freaking BOB post ... why don't you guys just fight and get it over with instead of spending time posting ... makes me think ascn was harder then bob expected
maybe you will give them a 4th offer
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:43:00 -
[46]
So if BoB started losing wars, you would be the first one to quit right?
Fight while the fightin's good, then switch sides to the next winning team?
Doesn't anybody fight for a cause anymore?
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Specops
If an alliance is badly losing a war, why would the aggressor alliance want to extend any sort of surrender terms. What would the surrender be like? We'll take 85 percent of your stuff but you can keep 15 even though we can very easily take all of it?
Well it's not the aggressors choice if you take your stuff and leave. I don't think terms even apply. If it were up to me would I accept surrender terms of from someone I was having fun chain spawning? Ofc not. But if they got up and left there wouldn't be alot the aggressor could do about it. I guess they could war dec and chase down the alliance until it disbanded, but that seems kind of pointless. Why would anyone persue a risky chance when if the conflict ends there they get a clear victory? Sure I guess that could happen, but not all that likly to happen imo.
Originally by: Specops
Now I wouldn't expect many if any BoB members to acknowledge this (hey I wouldn't wanna get kicked out of my alliance too), but I think overall, for Sirmolle and BoB, it is far more important for "surrender" threads to reach 10 pages+ than it is to have a corp actually take up the offer.
Just my two cents.
You might be right. I have no idea if bob leadership would want a surrender tbh. Everything I've said are just personal thoughts and questions I have about Eve territory wars in general. Still what an enemy wants shouldn't have an effect when making the decision about what is best for an alliance. Fighting for bitterness and spite can't be worth killing an alliance. Isn't it the responsibility of an alliances leadership to step in at that point and either come up with a realistic plan for victory or leave the space and plan their next move? I just can't believe that sitting around with chance of victory and nothing to fight for except pride, ego, and lies is the best course of action.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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Black Torment
Caldari
White Wolves Defence league
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:45:00 -
[48]
One important thing to remember is that eve is a game. Sometimes its simply more fun to fight to the death and go down guns blazing, regardless of the outcome. Virtual money is fairly easy to come by in this game, so theres no real big loss. Anyone that goes so far as to care more about "pride" than entertainment is doing something very wrong. (Though pride can play a part in the entertainment  )
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killerco
Gallente
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 12:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: pershphanie
then continuing a futile war is a disservice to the members and a huge lie.
all i can say is our members want too keep fighting for our home system no lies here by the corm corp management
Don't be a great man just be a man |
pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 13:07:00 -
[50]
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 13:09:59
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 13:07:57
Originally by: Kuang
Another freaking BOB post ... why don't you guys just fight and get it over with instead of spending time posting ... makes me think ascn was harder then bob expected
maybe you will give them a 4th offer
I'm just a BoB member. I don't speak for BoB. My views are my personal viewpoints only. I am not speaking as a member of BoB. I am speaking as a member of the eve community only.
This is not an offer to anyone. Nor is it in reference to anyone in specific.
This thread is not about ASCN or BoB. This thread is about a mentality that exists everywhere throughout the eve community in every corp and alliance everywhere. Since I am speaking about a mentality of the majority of eve players it may APPLY to bob/ascn but it is not ABOUT bob/ascn because it does not apply exclusivly to them. This is shown by several people in this thread posting who belong to neither side yet have an opinion on the subject.
Certain things in this game are accepted as fact that I do not necessarily believe are true. I do not believe that it should be considered honorable to "fight for you space" at the point where regaining your space is an unachievable goal. I believe at the point where you are losing and have no realistic chance or plan to regain that space then you are no longer fighting for your space. At that point you are fighting for a lie and delusional egos.
I also am not saying that you shouldn't fight wars or you should run at the first sign of trouble. There is a big difference between running at the first sign of trouble and fighting for an unachievable lost cause. If people can't see the difference between being loyal and being delusional, well then that's on you not me.
I hope that helps you and everyone else who misunderstood what I was saying.
Now that I have made that crystal clear I think it is safe to assume that anyone who is "misunderstanding" what I am saying is doing so on purpose to troll and flame.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.12.24 13:14:00 -
[51]
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 13:15:53
Originally by: killerco
Originally by: pershphanie
then continuing a futile war is a disservice to the members and a huge lie.
all i can say is our members want too keep fighting for our home system no lies here by the corm corp management
That's cool. As long as you're having fun then fine by me. Keep it up as long as you want. But it is a lie to say you are fighting for your home unless you have a chance to regain it. You can fight whoever you want. But make sure you are fighting FOR something real.
Fighting FOR something that is not going happen is not fighting for a cause at all. It is fighting for a lie.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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Razor Jaxx
Fate.
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Posted - 2006.12.24 13:38:00 -
[52]
Bitterness? Pride? Honor? Feelings should have no play in determining a strategy.
In the case of ASCN v BoB (since it is the underlying conflict being addressed here), it is for ASCN leaders to decide which option is the more viable. For this, they have to speculate on a number of factors. For example :
- will BoB have the staying power, the resources and the will to police the new region, and if yes, for how long?
- can ASCN muster enough resources to mount a counter-offensive at any later point in time? What are the chances of success of such a plan?
etc.
It's only after formulating and answering the right questions that ASCN leadership can decide on a proper course of action. Maybe surrendering is the best option. Maybe it's not. But a strategic decision cannot be made on mere ideologies, principles and feelings.
Fate kills |
laotse
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 14:07:00 -
[53]
we will fight till the end and after that we will fight some more 
80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes |
Distrans
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.12.24 14:17:00 -
[54]
Way to much text. And way to wrong character to start the topic 
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DB Preacher
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 14:18:00 -
[55]
Should have used an alt persh, 99% of the people on this forum can't see past the BoB ticker on any subject.
dbp
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
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Eskalin
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.24 14:19:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Eskalin on 24/12/2006 14:21:27
meh delete
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.12.24 14:28:00 -
[57]
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 14:39:58
I still don't understand why volunteering the entire membership of an alliance for a long slow suicide that in the end accomplishes nothing and kills your corp is considered so honorable by everyone in eve. And why admitting defeat isn't even a viable option in any situation. Alliance members put their trust into their leadership to make decisions based on what is best for them. If you are in a situation where admitting defeat is the best option for the members in your allaince and in the best interest of your corperations then how is being truthfull a total disgrace and the most honorable thing you can do is to live the lie that you are "fighting for your space".
I know I am a horible person and everything, but damn the rest of you are pretty screwed up too. The truth = disgracefull. Living a lie = honorable. Egos > wellbeing and enjoyment.
Maybe I should just continue to ignore what eve players consider honorable. I'm trying to understand, I really am. But I guess like everyone says "You don't know what honor is". Well, I guess all of you who say that to me are right. If that is what honor is then I have none of it.
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Bitterness? Pride? Honor? Feelings should have no play in determining a strategy.
That is exactly my point. 100% on the money. What is actually best should be > what looks/feels good. Sadly it seems most people disagree.
How that applys to any specific case, I have no idea. I'm not in their leadership so I don't know what goes on there or any grand plans they have.
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
You might consider it a disservice to the members whilst others call if a service to the greater whole, they're taking the heat now so no-one else has to. In keeping these nameless aggressors tied up they're providing a valuable service to the next ones on the list.
Something for that next someone to consider and possibly fund.
You are absolutly right that it would be a service to the whole. But as a member of an alliance's leadership your responsibilty is not to eve as a whole or even your allies. It is to the members of your alliance. In the end doesn't the fate of your alliance and members have to be more important than everything else?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain. -CYVOK-
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killerco
Gallente
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 15:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: pershphanie
But it is a lie to say you are fighting for your home unless you have a chance to regain it.
This is just not true. It is not a lie it is a believe that we fight(atleast we try) too keep something we build from scratch and we call that system our home.
Beside you never know what will happen in the future in eve.
Don't be a great man just be a man |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.12.24 15:15:00 -
[59]
Originally by: pershphanie
Edited by: pershphanie on 24/12/2006 14:39:58
I still don't understand why volunteering the entire membership of an alliance for a long slow suicide that in the end accomplishes nothing and kills your corp is considered so honorable by everyone in eve. And why admitting defeat isn't even a viable option in any situation. Alliance members put their trust into their leadership to make decisions based on what is best for them. If you are in a situation where admitting defeat is the best option for the members in your allaince and in the best interest of your corperations then how is being truthfull a total disgrace and the most honorable thing you can do is to live the lie that you are "fighting for your space".
I know I am a horible person and everything, but damn the rest of you are pretty screwed up too. The truth = disgracefull. Living a lie = honorable. Egos > wellbeing and enjoyment.
Maybe I should just continue to ignore what eve players consider honorable. I'm trying to understand, I really am. But I guess like everyone says "You don't know what honor is". Well, I guess all of you who say that to me are right. If that is what honor is then I have none of it.
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Bitterness? Pride? Honor? Feelings should have no play in determining a strategy.
That is exactly my point. 100% on the money. What is actually best should be > what looks/feels good. Sadly it seems most people disagree.
How that applys to any specific case, I have no idea. I'm not in their leadership so I don't know what goes on there or any grand plans they have.
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
You might consider it a disservice to the members whilst others call if a service to the greater whole, they're taking the heat now so no-one else has to. In keeping these nameless aggressors tied up they're providing a valuable service to the next ones on the list.
Something for that next someone to consider and possibly fund.
You are absolutly right that it would be a service to the whole. But as a member of an alliance's leadership your responsibilty is not to eve as a whole or even your allies. It is to the members of your alliance. In the end doesn't the fate of your alliance and members have to be more important than everything else?
Divide and conquer, leadership and members have seen it all before time and again, they jump ship now and end up in the exact same situation down to line when their new home gets targetted. They might as well stick it out and hope/arrange for someone to attack their enemy and outlast the focus of the invaders.
Ourselves Alone |
Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.24 15:20:00 -
[60]
I will not go into a lengthy discussion of the honor of accepting defeat or staying to fight.
We will be fighting till the end. If we lose, I want to leave with the feeling that I did everything I could to prevent defeat. There's no lies, I was never lied to by my CEO or any of the directors. No one knows what will happen in Eve tomorrow, so there's never 100% chance of defeat as there's no 100% chance of victory.
And fighting is fun. Have you forgotten about it? Even if you lose and have a good fight, it's still fun. So, cya in space 
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