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Amon 'Chakai
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.30 06:15:00 -
[121]
Just to OP, only reason to fight to the end or as long as you can is in my books to show that next time you set yerself to 0,0 it won't be some quick war what your opposition thinks.. so it's more unlikely you'll get hit. Ofc the problem is most of the alliance will loose it's members during this process unless there's united movement to conquer new space but that would require giving up early on war to keep organisation up for thiskind of changing space.
Atleast that's only reason in online games what I can think as a reason. Just my impressions in a quick post.
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If eve even makes close up to 60-70k+ dollars per day as budget.. they could throw about 140k-300k easily to hardware upgrade once per year.
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Lag Fest
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.30 14:31:00 -
[122]
yeah i completley agree with you but i think the OP meant that you can always fight and show that you will "go down swinging" by fighting where you have a chance. The thing is that most ppl confuse "fight to the last man" with fighting just because someone else expects you.
Fightuing guerilla wars can be fun, for a period of time but to completley be stuck up on one single thing and hoping that miracle will happen is just unfair towards your corp members.
As so many ppl have posted already, they play the game for fun, nothing else, and how much fun is it if every sigle time you undock you need to run and hide somewhere and on a "good day" you get 1 or 2 ganks and thats it. wheres the fun in that.
IMHO its better to fight untill there is a valid chance to defeat your nme but it takes real leader to realise when hes been beaten and take a step back and re-evaluate the corps situation.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.30 15:16:00 -
[123]
Wars in EVE are all about morale. Lets face it it's pretty easy to keep fighting to the bitter end when you're basically immortal. OK, so you run out of ships, but T1 stuff you can just keep throwing at the opposition.
So ... well in essence until morale is broken, there is no surrender, because ... well, until morale is gone, there's literally nothing you can do to stop them fighting. At which point the whole thing collapses anyway, and pilots desert and retreat, leaving as you say, the bitter hard core.
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Shyalud
Chosen Path
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.30 16:09:00 -
[124]
 Originally by: MacDuncan
Where did YOU admit the defeat of F-E or surrendered to ATUK before you actually turned 180¦ and joined them later on?
Most of your post leaves (or should at least) a bitter taste to all ppl knowing some stories...
That is really only a simple statement describing what it looked like from the outside. The fact is, FE was drawn into a war against an equall opponent by allies that weren't fighting their own war. The realization slowly dawned on both FE and [5] leadership that our fight was pointless. The 5 wasn't attacking FE space (except for a few skirmishes), their goal was to move in elsewhere.
The leadership of both of those alliances made the best decision there was to make.
Originally by: Jules
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
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Karunel
Princeps Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.30 16:37:00 -
[125]
Quote:
Should have used an alt persh, 99% of the people on this forum can't see past the BoB ticker on any subject.
I'd say that it's pretty obvious that people, in this case, can't see past the F-E ticker.
Just me though.
Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.12.30 17:03:00 -
[126]
Its like being confronted by 15 guys after school. The choices you make....
For instance:
If you surrender and get beat down, everyone understands you had no chance of winning, but they still see you as weak for not standing up for yourself. Deep down in side you never feel good about it.
If you fight, your still gonna get beat down, they may even give you a few extra kicks because you fought back. You know you never had any chance of winning but it feels good to get some licks in. People think your stupid for doing it but respect you for having the heart to try.
note: Try not to stay on the ground and cover your face. TRUST ME
If you run away from the fight then periodically come back and sucker punch people it makes you feel good in the short term, but it changes who you are. Your never the same person after that and people think less of you because of it.
note: although its cheap sucker punching is a science and if done correctly is extremely effective.
If you run away, and never fight your probably dont lose anything. But everyone who knows about it thinks your a coward and even your best friend never treat you the same again.
note: your might also turn into a pile of fleshy goo because your spinal cord disentergrates from lack of use you spineless coward
Run away and comeback with 14 friends. Meh...it works .
"What happens in Deklien stays in Deklien". |
Paladineguru
Gallente
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.31 05:16:00 -
[127]
would bob surrender. would they pull back to empire and
"rethink"
?
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Erfnam
Time Cube Syndicate
Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.31 07:47:00 -
[128]
This is a nice thought provoking question. A much welcomed change from the typical smacking found in this forum. There were many good points for and against fighting till the end. I agree that it depends on the situation and what the defender is attempting to accomplish.
If a corp is faced with total defeat, but they still have the desire to fight, that is the best choice for them. If their desire is not satisfied, then it will most likely lead to fracturing of the corp. If the corp members no longer have the will to fight, but are told to do so it will lead to the same outcome. Every corp will have a mix of these players and the leadership is forced to walk the fine line of keeping them happy while still doing what is best for the corp. In the end, there will never be a clear answer as to which would have been the more correct decision.
Time Cube Syndicate is recruiting |
Arvo Henderson
Be Podded My Friend
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Posted - 2006.12.31 11:49:00 -
[129]
To the OP.
In Eve, the most fun kind of war, IMO, is what we could call "tribal warfare" or "low-intensity warfare" i.e. wars which are not declared at all and consists mainly in raids by small war parties (small gangs) that try to "steal exotic dancers" (i.e. loot) or "hunt heads" (i.e. obtain killmails).
These heads and dancers are usually exposed in clearly visible places at the entrance of each tribal village (i.e. public killboards) and good stats on them are considered, by Eve players culture, to be a measure of reputation/prestige/status.
These war parties objectives are not clearly defined: there is no need to either. The point is to enter a region of space fast, get out fast, while maximizing the number of heads one brings back home.
The damage they inflict on the targets could be pretty high, both from a purely material perspective (faction loot from ratters, bpo's, expensive ships brought from Empire) or a "spiritual" perspective (alliance members throwing sh*t at each others in forums about being a carebear, etc.). Both things hurt an alliance - more the latter than the former.
However, in order to "tribal warfare" to topple an alliance, either the attacked alliance was too weak (in the first place) to claim any space, or there were already some significant squabble going on that is amplified by the raids results leading to PVP corps leaving, etc. I haven't heard of any alliance surrendering to casual raiders.
The other kind of warfare is the one of the kind that BoB unleashed upon ASCN - total war i.e. "serious war". The conditions that Molle proposed to ASCN were simply unacceptable - "stay and die or retreat now into Empire" - for an alliance whose major activity in the last year has been setting up immense POS networks and outposts, "retreating to Empire" would mean disbanding - why stay together when the common project has been destroyed?
You say that the fight is over - prolly ASCN won't be able to field a big fleet anytime soon. But if I were they I would cling to my last chance - wait for boredom install into BoB ranks and cripple the war effort. I know you have already trounced huge amounts of POSes - but for how long will your most aggressive "tribal warriors" accept the discipline that requires "total warfare"?
Besides, I think that when one is confronted with "unconditional surrender" - which was in fact, what Molle offers to ASCN - that will just strengthen the determination of some members to the fanatism. This is a game - so there are no moral considerations to be worried about, no civilian casualties, money grows in trees, industrial infrastructure (blueprints) can't be put away easily, etc.. If ASCN as a whole hasn't retreat yet to Empire is because they still believe in survival - and in order to destroy that belief you will probably have to destroy every single ASCN POS. Look at RA - twice "destroyed", twice reappeared with a vengeance. That's the example I think ASCN leadership is looking at.
Last but not least. In an alliance people don't matter at all - what matters is the common project. Corps are the people in them, alliances are sometimes strong, sometimes fragile, association of corps, which take place because of some common purpose. That's the actual glue that keeps together an alliance - the people loyalty come first for the corp and then to the alliance.
BoB stated goal is to win Eve. I think you're almost there guys :) But ASCN goal now is to survive as a 0.0 alliance. When they see that that goal is no longer achievable, then this war will be over.
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Haros
Redemption Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.31 14:07:00 -
[130]
Giving you the benefit of the doupt, i ll pretend this is not a propaganda post.
So you are saying determination is bad.
So ATUK guerila warfare against Curse had no impact on curse alliance? They should have surrendered and gone to empire?
Stain should have surrendered when curse was fielding 200ppl fleets and Stain had 50-80 maybe 100 at best times during the last stages of the war?
Xenobytes should have surrendered n left 4gq when SE corps switched sides or left stain?
Red alliance example has been mentioned allready.
In your starting post you said you were trying to understand why ppl do what the do fighting a "hopeless" war.
Ppl gave you their own views and answers. Then you started trying to convince them they were wrong or at least thats how it appears to me. They are not and all the above examples prove this. What you call bitter I call stuborn and determined.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.12.31 18:30:00 -
[131]
PA is the model for a dying alliance. Keep fighting and smacking until EVERYBODY in eve hates you. Then you know you went down swinging. 
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