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Tian Tian Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1
   |
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:06:27 -
[1] - Quote
I was in a corp. Someone else joined the corp and starting attacking us.
He then had a random npc corp person warp in in a Guardian.
We could not attack the Guardian.
He didnt turn suspect even though repping the person fighting because we didnt get limited engagement timers.
Is this a bug?
I thought neutral reps weee supposed to go suspect.
This is currently a griefers paradise and basically borderline exploit.
I am mad and confused |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8768
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:19:27 -
[2] - Quote
Corpmembers attacking corpmembers is legal (unless you turn off the little switch in the corporate management settings).
Because it is legal to attack corpmates, no one gets a "limited engagement" timer... merely a "weapons timer" (which is something very different).
As for the Guardian... it inherits any offensive timers from the person it is repairing. Because there was no limited engagement timer, the Guardian did not become a "suspect."
As far as the "exploityness" of this...
- these mechanics are a direct result of people wanting to have neutral or out-of-corporation/alliance logistics join fleets and not be penalized for repping the multi-corp/alliance fleet.
- take away this ability and you nerf Incursions and allied high-sec fleets.
- any mechanic you create will never be perfect as someone will find a way to break the "spirit" of it. Remember, mechanics are rules. Rules cannot decern intent.
- You are in EVE. You got whacked. Get up, dust yourself off, keep going. It only gets WORSE from here.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
3356
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:23:57 -
[3] - Quote
Questions like this are a subject matter for petitions.
If you had done that a nice GM would have told you that if you don't like awoxing you can literally turn it off and that this is, in fact, normal gameplay.
The crimewatch flagging system has no mechanism by which logistics in that kind of situation can gain a suspect flag as no limited engagement timer is generated. The system was designed not to have "special case" flagging (it turns out that a neutral remote repping two people at war was a "special case" and as a result for a month after it was introduced neutral remote reps in highsec weren't shootable at all and CCP had to code a special case for it) because thats too confusing, so instead you get this. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9995
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:29:32 -
[4] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:It only gets WORSE from here.
I think they are controversial really, not worse.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
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Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:32:55 -
[5] - Quote
Just get your CEO to set Friendly Fire = Illegal. Problem solved. |
Paranoid Loyd
7134
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:34:11 -
[6] - Quote
Flip the switch if you're a little *****.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12592
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:43:47 -
[7] - Quote
As others have said, just tell your ceo to flip a switch, it's no one's fault but his own if you don't know the game well enough.
Also, i do love how some people default to "what happened was bad for me and made me mad, therefore it's killing the game for everyone" No it's not, it's just you lol. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:57:13 -
[8] - Quote
Move to null! You can shoot anything, at any time. No worrying about suspect or criminal status, limited engagements, or any such bs. In null it's 100% clear that people not in your corp/alliance want to shoot you. In null if you're awoxed you're 100% able to shoot back. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
690
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 15:59:43 -
[9] - Quote
All other parts aside, such as the turning friendly fire illegal, it still is an issue if a remote assist in a friendly fire situation does not get a combat flag. Suspect flag is overkill, but corpies should be able to shoot at non corpie reppers?
I saw incursions brought up, but same deal, eve is harsh. You in incursions and somebody has friendly fire on, flags to another corpmate and as such, logis dies. That is eve. Blacklist that corp and done.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Syeed Ameer Ali
Evil Murder Society
56
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Posted - 2015.10.08 16:19:38 -
[10] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:All other parts aside, such as the turning friendly fire illegal, it still is an issue if a remote assist in a friendly fire situation does not get a combat flag. Suspect flag is overkill, but corpies should be able to shoot at non corpie reppers?
I saw incursions brought up, but same deal, eve is harsh. You in incursions and somebody has friendly fire on, flags to another corpmate and as such, logis dies. That is eve. Blacklist that corp and done.
That's what we told them but they decided the friendly fire switch was a better way to nerf highsec Safariing. Now we have another epic playstyle gone the way of the dodo (or the ninja salvager) and yet the aggression mechanics are still flawed.
everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
996
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Posted - 2015.10.08 16:21:09 -
[11] - Quote
No matter how hard CCP tries there is no way to balance terrible players.
Not today spaghetti.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
17098
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 16:56:38 -
[12] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Move to null! You can shoot anything, at any time. No worrying about suspect or criminal status, limited engagements, or any such bs. In null it's 100% clear that people not in your corp/alliance want to shoot you. In null if you're awoxed you're 100% able to shoot back.
It's quite restful, I must say.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14666
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 16:58:32 -
[13] - Quote
It's not an exploit at all, you're just an imbecile who doesn't even know the rules of the game you're playing.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
3357
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 17:02:30 -
[14] - Quote
The problem is, from a design perspective, is that fixing it to make it work how you'd expect it to work requires that they make it so corp members shooting each other causes a limited engagement.
You get your suspect neutral, but that would also have undesirable consequences.
Alternatively they could code an elaborate special case for it, however that would undermine the primary design goal of the current flagging system (elimination of special cases and less overall complexity).
This is all an unfortunate artifact of the system being designed by the former CCP Greyscale a notoriously incompetent developer who unrepentantly didn't give a crap about the gameplay that would result from the changes and throughout the development process disregarded player criticism that it was oversimplified and would result in good gameplay in highsec.
But hey its just another item on the list of things in the game that guy took a dump on. Thank Christ he left for Riot, better them than us.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5442
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 18:05:13 -
[15] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Just get your CEO to set Friendly Fire = Illegal. Problem solved.
^^ This.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
691
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:29:58 -
[16] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The problem is, from a design perspective, is that fixing it to make it work how you'd expect it to work requires that they make it so corp members shooting each other causes a limited engagement.
...
changes and throughout the development process disregarded player criticism that it was oversimplified and wouldn't result in good gameplay in highsec.
It was required... at least according to the dev team when the new system changes occured. According to CCP at the time, they said the old flagging system was so convoluted, complex and intertwined with everything, that it made development work just a big haze. Changing one thing would break something else completely unrelated.
The simplicity of suspect, and criminal is quite nice though, until I heard this part, I thought that while simplistic in nature, criminal/suspect flagging was quite effective. Also helped bring the law into the players hands. Just not really used.
So for this issue, what is it in the mechanics that allows corpies to shoot eachother. Is it just a flag of some sort that hides underneath? Can they put that status and timer hidden into each player so the same connection that allows friendly fire occurs if somebody offers remote support to a non corp person?
I think that would be the best approach. Just copy the corp trigger, and make it indirectly connected.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
177
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:33:22 -
[17] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The problem is, from a design perspective, is that fixing it to make it work how you'd expect it to work requires that they make it so corp members shooting each other causes a limited engagement.
You get your suspect neutral, but that would also have undesirable consequences.
Alternatively they could code an elaborate special case for it, however that would undermine the primary design goal of the current flagging system (elimination of special cases and less overall complexity).
This is all an unfortunate artifact of the system being designed by the former CCP Greyscale a notoriously incompetent developer who unrepentantly didn't give a crap about the gameplay that would result from the changes and throughout the development process disregarded player criticism that it was oversimplified and wouldn't result in good gameplay in highsec.
But hey its just another item on the list of things in the game that guy took a dump on. Thank Christ he left for Riot, better them than us.
I still remember his introduction of the new system at fanfest. He looked so proud right up to the second where ppl in the room saw several loopholes, issues and problems with it. Ones he never even thought of (while they really weren't that outlandish at all, it's just that we actually play the game) and suddenly he looked like a deer in the headlights.
He fcked up a lot of things. |
HeXxploiT
Big Diggers
Get Off My Lawn
187
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:45:37 -
[18] - Quote
Never really thought about it under these circumstances but it does sound like a rather whacked out mechanic that could surely drive the newbs away. The friendly fire switch is great but to have to turn it on because of this lopsided mechanic would suck. Fixing it so that the repping neutral turns suspect seems like a pretty simple rep and only hurts those afraid of real pvp. Would love to see this changed in the future. As for those of you who pvp this way please don't cry and just come and join us in nulsec and we'll show you how real men do it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14688
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:50:14 -
[19] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Fixing it so that the repping neutral turns suspect seems like a pretty simple rep and only hurts those afraid of real pvp.
*facepalm*
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch#Suspect_Timer
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Giaus Felix
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:51:30 -
[20] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote: As for those of you who pvp this way please don't cry and just come and join us in nulsec and we'll show you how real men do it. Orbit the FC, target what he tells you to and press F1?
 |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
177
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 00:52:50 -
[21] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Never really thought about it under these circumstances but it does sound like a rather whacked out mechanic that could surely drive the newbs away. The friendly fire switch is great but to have to turn it on because of this lopsided mechanic would suck. Fixing it so that the repping neutral turns suspect seems like a pretty simple rep and only hurts those afraid of real pvp. Would love to see this changed in the future. As for those of you who pvp this way please don't cry and just come and join us in nulsec and we'll show you how real men do it.
You have it the wrong way round. "fixing it" as you put it causes more harm than it does good. There IS a solution to the issue, it's been stated in this thread and takes almost no effort. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
669
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 01:04:16 -
[22] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:Never really thought about it under these circumstances but it does sound like a rather whacked out mechanic that could surely drive the newbs away. The friendly fire switch is great but to have to turn it on because of this lopsided mechanic would suck. Fixing it so that the repping neutral turns suspect seems like a pretty simple rep and only hurts those afraid of real pvp. Would love to see this changed in the future. As for those of you who pvp this way please don't cry and just come and join us in nulsec and we'll show you how real men do it. You have it the wrong way round. "fixing it" as you put it causes more harm than it does good. There IS a solution to the issue, it's been stated in this thread and takes almost no effort.
Yea but like, then that would put the responsibility for handling the issue properly on me.
Unacceptable.
As proven multiple times by OP, CCP needs to entervene and fix this obvious issue before more if not all people are driven from the game by others with no self-control/human decency. |
Hal Morsh
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
421
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 01:23:22 -
[23] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Flip the switch if you're a little *****.
By the looks of his post, he didn't even fully understand how or why this was actually going on. Not totally called for.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
58311
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 01:33:25 -
[24] - Quote
I had no idea NPC corps can have the friendly fire on. |
Paranoid Loyd
7153
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 01:52:04 -
[25] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Flip the switch if you're a little *****. By the looks of his post, he didn't even fully understand how or why this was actually going on. Not totally called for.
Forum alts that post whine threads get no courtesy from me, quite the opposite in fact. Why don't you worry about your own posting Hal.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
938
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 02:00:34 -
[26] - Quote
Tian Tian Tian wrote:I was in a corp. Someone else joined the corp and starting attacking us.
He then had a random npc corp person warp in in a Guardian.
We could not attack the Guardian.
He didnt turn suspect even though repping the person fighting because we didnt get limited engagement timers.
Is this a bug?
I thought neutral reps weee supposed to go suspect.
This is currently a griefers paradise and basically borderline exploit.
I am mad and confused
lolhighseclol
Come live in lowsec/nullsec/wh and "neutral" logi will be something to add on the "to be killed" list you see on grid.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Tian Tian Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 02:08:45 -
[27] - Quote
It seems like this is the only aspect in all of eve where when you are fighting an opponent that is receiving logistic reps that you can not legally agress them.
All other areas of space and all other situations, if you are fighting anyone and they are receiving reps, you can attack the reps leggaly within game mechanics.
.....except when you are in hisec gettinf awoxed, then its Duke Nukem God Mode for the logi rep ship.
Seems like it is a bug and not working as intended, if it doesnt work this way anywhere, anytime, anyway else in the entire game.
~TTT |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
938
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 02:19:38 -
[28] - Quote
Tian Tian Tian wrote:It seems like this is the only aspect in all of eve where when you are fighting an opponent that is receiving logistic reps that you can not legally agress them.
All other areas of space and all other situations, if you are fighting anyone and they are receiving reps, you can attack the reps leggaly within game mechanics.
.....except when you are in hisec gettinf awoxed, then its Duke Nukem God Mode for the logi rep ship.
Seems like it is a bug and not working as intended, if it doesnt work this way anywhere, anytime, anyway else in the entire game.
~TTT
Not a bug. Learn about crimewatch mechanics. Alternatively, get friends in alpha Tornados and blow off their neutral logi if he really bothers you that much. Sure CONCORD will come kill those tornados but at least the "neutral" logi is dead right?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25258
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 02:43:15 -
[29] - Quote
Tian Tian Tian wrote:It seems like this is the only aspect in all of eve where when you are fighting an opponent that is receiving logistic reps that you can not legally agress them.
All other areas of space and all other situations, if you are fighting anyone and they are receiving reps, you can attack the reps leggaly within game mechanics.
.....except when you are in hisec gettinf awoxed, then its Duke Nukem God Mode for the logi rep ship.
Seems like it is a bug and not working as intended, if it doesnt work this way anywhere, anytime, anyway else in the entire game.
~TTT Hisec aggression mechanics differ from those elsewhere, this is by design. There are counters to neutral reps and every other unflaggable act that may result in an explosion, deal with it.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Paranoid Loyd
7154
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 02:51:31 -
[30] - Quote
Tian Tian Tian wrote:It seems like this is the only aspect in all of eve where when you are fighting an opponent that is receiving logistic reps that you can not legally agress them.
All other areas of space and all other situations, if you are fighting anyone and they are receiving reps, you can attack the reps leggaly within game mechanics.
.....except when you are in hisec gettinf awoxed, then its Duke Nukem God Mode for the logi rep ship.
Seems like it is a bug and not working as intended, if it doesnt work this way anywhere, anytime, anyway else in the entire game.
~TTT
See Hal, he's not interest in learning and adapting, he just wants to whine. Vimsy very clearly explained why it is how it is. Not only that multiple people in this thread have given him a very simple solution. Yet he still replies as if no one has given him any information as to why things are the way they are or how to fix his perceived problem.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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