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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:41:10 -
[1] - Quote
This is the worst idea I've seen during my time in EVE.
- I can easily imagine alt accounts (or very high SP accounts) finding a side profession in constantly training skills in demand and then selling them on market. Such source of SP can then turn the whole idea into large a pay-to-win market.
- This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.
- It removes a huge deal of value from choices you made when developing a character. In bazaar you buy/sell whole characters, with their pros and their cons. Here you trade SP like any other commodity.
- The idea is very poorly motivated. Reading the blog I keep asking myself: why you dismiss improving character market? Perhaps it might need a large web feature, but if you can pursue task as large as new structures, or sov revamp (or the proposed skill market for that matter), then why not better character bazaar? Character naming is not an answer either: to me, changing character name is less detrimental than the skill market. Perhaps its SP distribution then? Well, that is actually a feature that makes skill choices matter (even if in the price of the sold character). To be honest, reading the motivation I can't stop thinking that the main point is to monetize SP on a more flexible terms than character market allows. In the short term it might be a fresh source of income, but it will also spell the decline of this game.
You are going to alienate a significant fraction of EVE players base. This game has a relatively mature players, many of whom will not go well with such ruthless monetization of game experience and trivialization of character development. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:16:39 -
[2] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make. Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?
It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online GÇô say t3 frigates GÇô a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game. I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:35:17 -
[3] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Delegate wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Delegate wrote: This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.. Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make. Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point? It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online GÇô say t3 frigates GÇô a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game. I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet. Decreasing returns means scaling is NOT easy. Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.
I advice you to carefully read my posts again. I wrote about how far that _market_ can scale. Also, if you want to make a point, place put some effort into it, including justification. I'm not going to waste time on pointless word throwing. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 01:08:58 -
[4] - Quote
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:Querns wrote: People posting about this (both here and from without) are quick to call this "ISK for SP;" did you all deliberately ignore the part where you have to liquidate an existing pilot's skill points to fuel the skill packets?
Use your isk to keep an extra character or three training. Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer. Marech.
This point deserve attention. Currently multiple alt accounts are mainly a means of wealth gathering. Certain activities in EVE still allow you to PLEX several alts. Cap escalations, for example. After this change, those alts are not only an ISK source but a power-leveling machine.
EDIT: 1366 comments on r/Eve/ at this point. Yea, this one certainly isn't going to polarize eve player base... |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
103
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Posted - 2015.10.16 01:23:48 -
[5] - Quote
Indy Rider wrote:Delegate wrote:Marech Bhayanaka wrote:[quote=Querns] Periodically strip their SP and give it to the characters you actually play. Voila, isk for SP. Or $ for SP if you prefer.
Marech. This point deserve attention. Granted I haven't read the post in great detail, but wouldn't the whole diminishing returns thing make it a dumb idea to continually strip and transfer SP?
The way skill system is build, you don't need to skill ad infinitum. Whatever goal you have a 50m SP (and this is currently an efficient bracket) will bring you a long way towards it. So let say you want to move into Capitals, being a subcap pilot. It might be more reasonable for you to start a new account and power-level it with alts all the way to (well focused) 50m SP. Is this a good outcome for the game? No. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
106
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Posted - 2015.10.17 19:30:04 -
[6] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: New player: 1 account, 2 slots paltry ISK.
His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.
Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.
A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assume that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
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Posted - 2015.10.17 19:55:20 -
[7] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit. New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table. unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.
No one buys a toon on the bazaar to run l2s along newcomers. A market with an entry level of 1-2 PLEXes (SP transfer) will be much more pervasive than character bazaar.
You knew this very well when writing. And that why I'm not going to waste more time on this kind of "arguments". |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:34:30 -
[8] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game.
It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much.
Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. A player starting the game will then be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bough SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the isk and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
107
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:42:28 -
[9] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.
Its Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
110
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:49:04 -
[10] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Big Lynx wrote:Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here? So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread. It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise. if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea. besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here.
You might have some luck in padding this thread with noise, if there were wasn't that many voices opposing SP trading. At this point your efforts are pathetic. |
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
112
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:58:22 -
[11] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change.
Yes, of course, all the stupid is contained on eve-o. Solid arguments you've got there. Place continue with the noise.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:09:33 -
[12] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Delegate wrote:Cearain wrote:It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much. Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. [...] I do not understand you point about the bazarr. If new player A does not buy a character from the bazarr but player B does then player A will not be as competitive as player B. [...]
But the 2-4m SP A will not be doing stuff that B will engage in. Nevertheless A will meet a direct competitor C, that plays in the same league than A, but is stronger due to 1.2m bought SP. For a new player experience that is a big turn down. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 13:33:06 -
[13] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good.
For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2015.10.18 15:04:55 -
[14] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter.
My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing SP market go online.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
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Posted - 2015.10.18 19:03:52 -
[15] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
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Posted - 2015.10.18 19:09:36 -
[16] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.
Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well, but choose to ignore. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:23:05 -
[17] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately. what are you talking about? you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk. Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well but choose to ignore. how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts. it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. it still costs 2 plex for an assumed average transfer of 50m SP, leading to the extrapolated extractor price of 24m/unit. besides, the transfer fee is paid by the seller not the buyer. in both systems.
GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfers (while keeping the customers queue flowing).
We both know you understands this well. We both know you resolve to noise at this point. So I will let this short exchange for other to judge. It demonstrates pretty well your intentions in this thread. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:32:03 -
[18] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about?
It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
120
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Posted - 2015.10.18 19:38:11 -
[19] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:GÇ£how people fund their SP purchasesGÇ¥ is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing). considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about? It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed? no, they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them.
Right, this answers my previous question. You're willing to go pretty far.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
122
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Posted - 2015.10.18 19:47:43 -
[20] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:had you had a legitimate point, you could have made it half a page ago.
Yes I made it.
Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).
Except once again you ignored the fact that a market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.
CCP is creating a new market on which it can ask substantially higher transfer price than on the bazaar. And it will have bazaar revenue unchanged, plus a new revenues stream from micro-transfers.
You understand this very well. But you are now at the point where: "they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them."** In other words there is no point discussing with you.
** (TM) Dave Stark, all right reserved. |
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:23:28 -
[21] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.
Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread.
CCP Terminus wrote:The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare. We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:25:28 -
[22] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.
I very much doubt you missed it.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:33:01 -
[23] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Delegate wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day. I very much doubt you missed it. well clearly i did. not quite sure how you can doubt something that's that obviously true.
I very much doubt it, because I believe you are here for noise.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
130
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:04:39 -
[24] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers)
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
130
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:14:01 -
[25] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Delegate wrote:How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part? CCP Terminus wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).
Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts? Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.
What I'm reading here is "good portion". What is "good portion"? 10%? 15%? most? 90%? So again, how do you infer "most of them new customers"? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2015.10.19 08:40:46 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote: Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
And in this thread SP trading received a negative reception. Consider less sensitive revenue streams. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
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Posted - 2015.10.20 10:32:18 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."
Unfortunately it's not clearly described. These are some very broad philosophical arguments that one could used to support... well, a whole bunch of changes. I am fairly certain you did not come to decision to design the SP market lightly. There must be specific issues with the game that you want to address, and reasons why you believe SP market would be a good tool to do so. With the change of this magnitude, please be transparent with your player base. Ask for whatever permissions you need, and the tell us: why? |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:26:17 -
[28] - Quote
Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. |
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 21:50:39 -
[29] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:Delegate wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates the majority of the playerbase to establish additional cash flows to ccp? If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog. They can already sort of do that with plex though. They just buy plex and use ISK for books or w.e.
You can also grind ISK. If you tie books to AUR then every book is a revenue. |
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