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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
1
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:50:38 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:There will be a new item type called GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.
Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game.
You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The GÇÿTransneural Skill PacketGÇÖ is just another item on the market.
I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
2
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Posted - 2015.10.16 04:32:50 -
[2] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Laodell wrote:That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes. This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?
If this isn't brilliant sarcasm can you please enlighten us as to what a transaction would look like where I am paying someone to take something from me ? i.e. 'Sell with Cash".
Also, if I am selling, then there has to be a buyer, or CCP would have to create an NPC class solely to Buy SP at a rate that CCP or a logarithm dictates.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
2
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:47:55 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:
lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"
haha that's so insane.
After re-reading these threads I see one common theme coming from everyone that is in favor of the change.
Impatience.
This smacks of a younger generation that cannot tolerate being told to wait for something, or make a long term plan and execute on it. Like a spoiled little 9 year old demanding a smart phone from his parents.
It takes time to learn how to play in Eve well. It's been my observation that the time progression matches the abilities and inspirations of the players to 'improvise' or otherwise think of new and interesting tactics that they are capable of without jumping to 'fully capable' skills levels. Yes time *is* an accomplishment. I have played the game for 10 years and have had fun in the process and there's still things I look forward to being able to do.
If I could have done *everything* in the first year I would have gotten bored, and found another game to play.
Buying SP wouldn't encourage anyone to explore other ways of doing things. Why not just create chars with level 5 everything or remove the requirement for skill points entirely and let everyone fly or fit whatever they can afford? Because everyone would have done everything in the first year or tow, then will move on. Having never fully explored all that Eve has to offer. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:42 -
[4] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Lan Wang wrote:next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids  Next on New Eden Store **Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race** Then we know it is the end of times. the possibilities are endless 
Since we are getting stupid about this lets explore that direction:
While we are at it why not add trans-gendered pilots and make other physical defects available. Lets get a wheelchair or walker option for the older pilots. We have scars why not amputee's and birth defects?
[ Sarcasm ]
I see so many micro-aggressions in character creation alone
[ /Sarcasm ] |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
5
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:03:56 -
[5] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex.
Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income. Someone had to buy the PLEX. They lose no money. Don't be this way.
You can make enough ISK in game to purchase a PLEX without having to ever touch cash. Eve can be free to play if you can make more than a billion isk a month. Which happens.
I am sure the mining-bot account holders will love this feature. Less time required to get to their optimal training and harvesting. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
9
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:05 -
[6] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:CCP should instead start renting solar systems themselves. That would be a much less impactant way of rising cash quickly.
So I pay like 3 plex month and I have my very own wormhole with a couple NPCs to patrol it like a "mini me concord".
Space Garrison.
I would pay for this. I really, really would. Even regular systems.
Please CCP, please allow me to sponsor my own system /s that I can charge rent for anyone wanting to Dock at any of my stations.
Wait... We already do that. Except we have to defend those systems ourselves... |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
11
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:37:33 -
[7] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption or there wouldn't be 90+ pages of paying subscribers saying "NO".
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
Eve is NOT just about blowing things up. There's trade and community and capability is part of building the community.
As it stands your kill count will become the new demarcation of maturity and activity in the game. That's not a good thing, because there's so many other things you can accomplish in game that aren't tracked.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
11
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:02:04 -
[8] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.
Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. There's some 'loss' in the equation that can be compensated by more cash but what's 10% of your SP when the exchange rate is so much more in favor of cash? Sure someone still has to buy the plexes with cash but not everyone does. For some free to play is a real thing. And this will only make that easier.
'Buying Sp through the Bazaar' has consequence to offset the time investment. All SP should have a balance that is not cash-based. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
12
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:22:20 -
[9] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?
Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.
'Why is that Bad', Ask yourself that again when you have been here 10 years.
Lets put this in another perspective. In those 10 years I have spent 1,794 for my game time. I have 114,343,548 SP in combat, exploration, commerce and industry based skills. That breaks down to about 63,736 SP per Dollar.
For less than a grand I can have a Titan pilot which I spent the last 10 years getting to. All I need is the ISK for the actual Skill book.
I could sell this toon for a LOT of cash for that. with this proposed change, it would make more monetary sense to just liquidate all that investment.
With the proposed change there's no incentive to encourage me to spend any time training for anything complex, for the reasons I and others have already stated in previous posts if you weren't so single-mindedly deliberately ignoring those valid points in favor of your own opinion on the matter.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:31:43 -
[10] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".
Please add your pros and cons to the list below: pros:
- pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
- reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
- boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
- players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]
cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
equality.
Cons:
- Rich alliances can now hold space indefinitely.
- When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
If you are going to allow SP Trading, then make all ship losses take SP away. Then CCP can harvest even more cash, and penalize the poor even more. For some of us, 14.95 and our Internet connection is all we can afford to entertain ourselves. |
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:45:27 -
[11] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and
gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.
Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
15
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:05:40 -
[12] - Quote
Saidra Whitewolf wrote:Okay, so I realize the game active subscriber count is dropping, yeah so CCP is making less money recently probably on their game... BUT, part of why this is happening is because HiSec is basically the most dangerous place in the game with all the griefing going on. So most people get tired of being fkng suicide ganked and wardecced in their first few weeks of playing and quit.
This new cash cow enterprise of selling SP will ultimately fail, because all of the bittervets will ragequit, most of the others will be turned off by the dev team, and some people will unsub. In the short term, yeah, tons of people will be buying SP. Hell, even the players whining about it will buy it, but it could mark the beginning of the end for this game in the long run.
In short, this is a money grab decision for CCP, likely because they see the game beginning to lose subscribers and it is part of their bail-out plan. I do NOT support it.
100% all of this completely. I couldn't agree more. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
16
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:08:59 -
[13] - Quote
This would be a lot of fun, and a new purpose other than just collecting the corpses of your foes. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:36:45 -
[14] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:General Lootit wrote:So why Pay2Win mechanic like PLEX is no concern to Play2Winers? Maybe because exchange hapens in which all sides in winning position. Payers gets isks and not worried about earning PLEX , tryharders gets free sub, CCP gets money. In skill transfering case something goes wrong and some side does gaining nothing or even loosing. There no secret that veterans loosing their prestige so we need to reward them more than cost exchange of unwanted skills. PLEX isn't pay2win. It's paying for someone else's subscription in exchange for ingame assets, freely agreed to by both parties.
No matter how you abstract the concept it's still P2W. I can spend RL $ on a PLEX, and buy my Titan Skillbook, and Titan.
I payed, now I win. Will I appreciate the value of the Titan if I lose it? At current prices buying 6 plex packets at a time would require about 72 ~ 73 PLEXs at just over $100 each. I can buy a Titan for a little over $800 USD.
Will my heart race if I am about to lose $800 USD ? Not nearly as much if I put the effort into the Titan the long way.
Fortunately ? I don't have that cash to blow on a Titan.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:20:08 -
[15] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.
What you're asking for is a world without consequences. A world without consequences does not create an environment of cooperation to build, only an environment where griefers, thieves and bandits can engage in their standard of play. The disrupting of others enjoyment of the game.
More people may play for a short time to bully others with impunity. But even that will pale when all the builders have left.
As for the character bazaar that line has been discussed. It is no where near buying SP. You're buying a character. You have to perform the research and make a wise decision.
Everyone in this thread has acknowledged CCPs intent by discussing the purchase of SP. Not the character bazaar or much else that goes with it. At best being able to reclaim the SP from existing toons creates an environment in which you can exist without being held accountable for past poor decisions.
Being able to look at a persons reputation is paramount in determining the safety of a new corp-mate. Remove that and you remove a lot of the safety in building within the game. Then there's CODE destroying game play for the new players and driving them off too.
Bugger to all that.
On the bright side, Eve was 1 of 3 games keeping me on a Windows desktop. That's one less thing keeping windows 10 a risk. If I can find a Linux replacement I will leave windows and Eve entirely.
We shall see how this plays out.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
18
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:42:20 -
[16] - Quote
atif09 wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:Maekchu wrote:Nafensoriel wrote:
The new system:
I train a character and extract blocks of time. I sell it.
Time has been removed from the equation at this point. If I sell 30m SP it will act like trained SP. IE it will act as if you yourself spent the hours to train a character but without actually spending the time.
The nominal value of the SP is still trained by the seller. But I do agree, that with the SP being unallocated, that means you can transfer SP to other skills then originally trained. But time is not lost, since time is still used on training on the seller. In your above example, it is true that 30m SP will just be injected on your character. But these 30M SP have been trained on another character and effectively transferred to your character, since they are lost on the other character. If they remained on the seller, then yes, you would be right in the fact that time has been lost. Think of it like a PI operation. I set up 3 alts and train them to 15m SP. 5m SP is the minimum before I can extract SP. So I extract 3x 10m SP and sell 30m SP in half the time it would have taken me to train one character to 30m SP. I also didn't have to follow a specific skillplan to create a Caldari or Gallente or Amarr or Minmatar pilot with specific pvp or industry or scanning skills. It's easier than Farmville now. After the first batch of 30m SP, I repeat the whole operation over again and again. Sunk cost = roughly 3x4 PLEX to get my 3 alts to 5m SP. After that it's pure PLEX to SP conversion. Each PLEX is roughly 1m SP from now on. Do you see a difference now ? with diminishing returns the sp will be for every 500k sp removed only 50k will be gained on accounts with more than 80m sp Characters consuming a Transneural Skill Packet will receive the following amounts of unallocated skillpoints, based on the total skillpoints trained before consumption: GÇó 0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added GÇó > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
So a hearty BUGGER OFF to everyone that's played for a significant amount of time. Yea thanks for that.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
19
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:57:13 -
[17] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones.
Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber.
POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
19
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Posted - 2015.10.16 22:10:12 -
[18] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Blue Harrier wrote:So now we will have a commodity that is transferrable by Jump-clone, there can be many like me who have a jump-clone languishing in 0.0 unused because for various reasons you got out and left it there.
Now I have a commodity I can jump anywhere in Eve I have a clone. I could jump to 0.0 package up a skillset and sell it on the market (for a good profit one would hope) then put out a message to anyone local to order a specific set of skills. Jump back to High and into a fully specked clone, collect extra points from a set of farmer clones, when ready jump back and sell the package of skills to the client.
Profit
Hmm, not my idea of how the game should progress, I vote no to this change.
what? this has nothing to do with jump clones. Whether or not you think it should have anything to do with Jump Clones is irrelevant. The 'sandbox' allows players to 'game the system' in however manner they think it may profit them. Even if that means using things like jump clones to move to various markets instead of flying there in a Stealth Bomber. POS Bowling was a beautiful example of this. Not it intended purpose but it worked. it's not what i think. this system quite literally has nothing to do with jump clones dude.
*Shrug*
The idea alone is enough to kill Eve for me. What's the point ? this proposed change along with Windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) being released I might as well explore Eve equivalents for Linux.
Please CCP say you're not going to do this. Hell kill the Bazaar completely while you're at it. Please keep the sandbox a level playing field. And roll back Incarna too while you're at it. I still haven't spent my Aurum in protest.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
22
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Posted - 2015.10.17 07:01:36 -
[19] - Quote
Something else I haven't seen mentioned.
Sec status would be meaningless. It's bad enough that Empire is already more dangerous than 0.0.
Instead of putting a gank alt out long enough to grind positive status back or train a new alt. These alts could be created almost daily. Start a new alt every day and pay to skill them up. Hit targets in 1.0 space with no indication something foul was afoot.
Honesty within the community has been brought up in many different forms in this EpicThread so far, I don't need to rehash those issues.
All this 'feature' would accomplish is help the dishonest in the game scam ever more. Increase the ability of spies to infiltrate target corporations with impunity and destroy any semblance of trust this game requires.
This idea sounds like it came straight from the goons.
The real question for CCP here based on the evidence presented so far as I and many others before me interpret it is:
What kind of players do you want in the game?
-- People that recognize consequence and work to build a good reputation?
-- People that want game mechanics to help them lie, steal and destroy?
Choose wisely CCP. We will be paying with our wallets.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
22
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Posted - 2015.10.17 07:03:34 -
[20] - Quote
A single CSM a majority does not make. |
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
27
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Posted - 2015.10.17 07:27:05 -
[21] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.
I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done.
It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
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Posted - 2015.10.17 08:28:09 -
[22] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i would honestly rather upset people with 200m sp than see the game full of dreadful adverts.
there's a reason pretty much all of us install ad blockers on our browsers.
All other issues not withstanding I am actually with this guy. It's bad enough windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) is offering ads on the start menu. I would hurl if I saw them in Eve Online also. |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
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Posted - 2015.10.17 08:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Laodell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Maraner wrote:Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?
i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible. buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar. I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done. It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over. none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it". nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist. we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet. in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this? if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too.
There you go again.
If that's all you see then you have clearly failed at English comprehension, or you are deliberately pretending to be ignorant of the 118 pages of vary valid points made by people saying " I don't like this and here's my argument".
There's at least a good solid full day or 2 days worth of arguments against this with approval from people that have no frame of reference to understand our knowledge of game mechanics after TEN YEARS or MORE playing the game
We understand how it's been working Dude. We know, we get it. We have been around in both Eve Online and the Real World long enough to be capable of understanding how this mistake will proceed.
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Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
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Posted - 2015.10.17 08:44:05 -
[24] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:darkchild's corpse wrote:the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg
Effing Expert Troll he is. You have to give him points for linking an appropriately great song. :) |
Laodell
Executable Inc.
31
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Posted - 2015.10.17 09:12:08 -
[25] - Quote
darkchild's corpse wrote:thats exactly like this other guy...
"why is it a bad idea?"
"it was already explained, read it"
"no, i'm too lazy, your point is invalid"
yeah... thats exactly how it works... *facepalm*
These are the American Millennials. I apologize on behalf of the parents of America for releasing these creatures upon us.
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