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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:58:06 -
[1] - Quote
CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.
Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25735
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:01:17 -
[2] - Quote
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:09:34 -
[3] - Quote
Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:11:37 -
[4] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
There you go and without buzzwords "pay to win": Tippia wrote:This is bad on a design level (since it's the antithesis of design GÇö it actually disrupts mechanics), on a balance level (because it can't be balanced since it relies on cost as a restriction), and on a conceptual level (it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it's supposed to solve). Hell, just for good measure, I'd throw in that it's bad on a morale level too: it absolutely reeks of desperate last-ditch cash grab to hope that a handful of whales will splurge on their newfound ability to not let something as silly as core game design sit in the way of their grand ideas.
All I see from Tippia is adjectives and buzzwords. It's not an argument so much as it is an opinion.. and a very subjective one.
Tippia please back up your statement with why's.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:14:12 -
[5] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts?
I read them. I don't see reasons against, just opinions.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25737
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:15:29 -
[6] - Quote
Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:18:29 -
[7] - Quote
Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:20:11 -
[8] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then?
Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:21:10 -
[9] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Skill points aren't holy. All the arguments against this change make the assumption that somehow the choices you made during skill training are somehow a permanent mark on the character.
Not everyone agrees with that assumption. Making skill points modular removes another barrier of inaccessibility to the game.
Took you 8 mins to read whole topic and thing about all arguments mentioned and come up with such conclusion. Impressive! That is preciselly why letting people instajump into end game content is a bad idea. Get people to just insta jump into content they are not ready for, forming a "majority" to demand changes ingame that would be not need should the players had been better prepared to be at that level.
People can use the character bazaar today. Your argument is invalid.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:06 -
[10] - Quote
Don ZOLA replying with "no u" is not a good strategy for argumentation.
Please try again.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25738
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:24:55 -
[11] - Quote
You think the Bazaar isn't good? What's your solution? Delete the bazaar? Tell me more.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:27:43 -
[12] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship.
They don't make you a better pilot, however. So we don't need them, as pilots.
Good pilots don't need boatloads of SP, no.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:29:16 -
[13] - Quote
Bantara wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Wendy, skills don't make you a better player. They never have. Why make and option to buy SP, then? Skills give you access to more game features and improve the performance of your ship. They don't make you a better pilot, however. Eve is not a lobby FPS where the mechanics are all the same and the only things which matter are teamwork/tactics and personal skill. It is an MMO, and investment does currently matter(objective fact) and should matter(personal opinion.)
I don't think character building through investment in SP is a game mechanic worth preserving.
This change has nothing to do with teamwork or gameplay in space, which are the hallmarks of this game.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:33:14 -
[14] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to. Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can. Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.
New players don't buy characters from the bazaar? Really?
Older players >50m see diminishing returns with this mechanic. With the AUR cost it's not worth doing.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:35:54 -
[15] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too. CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate. Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar). EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.
Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:40:57 -
[16] - Quote
Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:51:01 -
[17] - Quote
Talsha Talamar wrote:It has been pointed out several times in this thread that the character bazaar is not the same as the proposed system for trading skill points.
Your argument is actually the invalid one since it assumes an identity of terms, where it is not given. The Character Bazaar isn't the same as this SP mechanic change. I never said they were one in the same. But as far as the "skipping to endgame content" argument goes, yes they are exactly the same.
Quote:-> Skill Trading would allow to micro-customize any character new or existing. It would even allow to micro-customize on the fly during operations. Skill Trading would allow to train new characters up in minutes. The costs of micro customizing would be below those of buying a complete character. And why is micro customizing as a concept bad? I don't (yet) see an argument (not an opinion) against.
Quote:b) History of Characters - Intelligence & Consequences -> Characters on the bazaar have a history that reflects their identity in game. The older a character is, the more history it likely has. Looking at corp history, eve-search, killboards, age, sec status ... are important tools ingame to evaluate another character.
-> Skill Trading would allow to create high-sp characters that have a virgin history.
Maybe you haven't been on the Character Bazaar. Characters are traded on and off the Bazaar using anonymous alts. The intelligence you gather isn't perfect, and I don't particularly think it's bad that spies gain an advantage from this change. Spies take down corps and create content.
Quote:c) Availability of Characters -> The amount characters for sale on the Bazaar is limited by the number of characters trained. -> Skill Trading would create an unlimited amount of supply of characters with any skillset. The skills you trade were trained by someone else, exactly in the same way as in the Bazaar. There is no "unlimited" SP since every SP would have to be trained in advance (just like Character Bazaar).
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:52:03 -
[18] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:When you do that you buy an existing character with a character age (probably relative to its SP count), a character history, skill point allocation and a name. THAT CHARACTER is perfectly in line with the normal rules of the sandbox regardless of its actual owner. This new idea does NOT follow the normal character progression rules. "Normal". Now are you going to defend why "normal" is "holy"? Why is it too holy to touch with a change like this? Why is the change actually bad?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:59 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition GÇö or indeed any mechancis GÇö bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.
The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. Those SP in the character you bought weren't trained by you, and yet here they sit now in your account.
It is exactly and fundamentally the same (in concept) to the SP boost you will receive from this change.
I believe your issue with it is the flexibility, and I haven't seen you prove why this flexibility is bad for EVE.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:54:56 -
[20] - Quote
SFX Bladerunner wrote:If you didn't have to gradually make your way up the SP ladder to fly that shiny ship with the shiny mods, you don't have an appreciation for it or its worth.
There's a Character Bazaar. Did you miss it?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:56:09 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sibyyl wrote: The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account.
SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic.
The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:57:58 -
[22] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Once a veteran does it, a charismatic veteran can start a cult to make it so lots of people do the same.
In no time you have actual no fly zones as far in hisec as Jita. With less than 200 USD cost.
We already have skill plans for every single type of pilot in EVE. I don't understand what this change has anything to do with it.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:01:21 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sibyyl wrote:The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself. No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that determine how you can build a character. Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.
You certainly place importance on that distinction, by why is it important?
Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25740
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:53:30 -
[24] - Quote
Laodell wrote:Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.
Laodell wrote:Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.
Moac Tor wrote:If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?
This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all.
I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions.
The fact that you think that Skill Points belonging specifically to a character is holy is not relevant. That's your opinion, and I respect it, but it is not an opinion CCP (obviously) shares.
Laodell wrote:Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:59:06 -
[25] - Quote
Ima, I'll respond to the PLEX price portion of your argument in a different post.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.
Your colleague has already explained how the 400k rookie pilot (today) can turn into an 82% max dps efficient gank alt in about 9 days and 350 dps pilot in 15 minutes.
Regardless of how little time it takes to train a gank munchkin, it is still against EULA to recycle alts for ganking purposes, so I'm not sure what the problem here is that you're highlighting.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:03:55 -
[26] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:cons:
- T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
Already a slippery slope created when CCP dropped clone grades.
- Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
Character Bazaar
- Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
Is this even an argument? Rich alliances can attack you with a blob.
- Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952
If you haven't checked, Character Bazaar has plenty of farmed characters for sale.
- a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958
I'll address the PLEX price argument in another post
- Seasoned players would buy all available SP Booster Packs and leave newbros with none. Bad for NPE. [Portmanteau] post# 2021
SP Booster Packs have diminishing returns for seasoned pilots. I'm not sure what hoarding SP accomplishes.
- Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts)
SP allocation isn't free. A lot of the arguments in thread (like this one) seem to think there's no cost or penalty to it.
My responses in bold-italics.
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Sibyyl
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25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:22:51 -
[27] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. What makes interesting gameplay are the choices players make in space and in the meta. Skill training is not gameplay. The consequences of skill training are simply an excuse to deny gameplay.
With SP flexibility, people have the option, albeit at prohibitive prices, to fly a ship they normally can't, immediately. The SP doesn't make them a better pilot, or guarantee in any way that they won't lose the ship.
"We've always done it like this" is a terrible reason, especially in EVE, for keeping a mechanic. It didn't work for clone grades. It won't work here.
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Sibyyl
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25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:25:33 -
[28] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out'
By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return.
I brought this up in Slack yesterday, and the answer does not seem obvious to me.
How is CCP going to prevent RMT for Skill Points?
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Sibyyl
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25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:31:08 -
[29] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Instead in EVE, we not only get a mining skill, but it also comes in 5 levels of which level 2-4 are useless to the player. On top of that you have dozens of skills related to mining. This change, as you know, doesn't let you back out prerequisites. I'm just pointing out that throwing this in is unnecessary, and doesn't add anything to the argument against this change.
Quote:What I'm getting at, is that the skill system has the purpose of allowing the players to select the classes as they gain experience with playing the game and also increasing the number of classes availabale over time. The time it took me to specialize in logistic cruisers is the time that I could not spend in training for a heavy interdictor for example. It's also the time that some other player who invested in skills other than logistics related ones, could not use to compete with me on logistics. I can join in incursions as a logistic pilot because logistic pilots are relatively rare ... if every Jim and Jack could replace me within minutes, I wouldn't be as valuable anymore. How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
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Sibyyl
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25741
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:31 -
[30] - Quote
Don't mistake my posts as 'for' or 'against'.
In my gut I want to be against the change, but I can't seem to find a rationale to justify it to somebody else.
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Sibyyl
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25742
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:46:14 -
[31] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what). EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way. CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.
Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay? I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.
Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.
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Sibyyl
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25742
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:49:16 -
[32] - Quote
And let's be honest. Nobody (except for me) actually chose to have mining skills. The tutorial made them think it's a good idea and 3 months later they want to try the 'real game'. How does holding those people to these choices make for interesting gameplay?
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Sibyyl
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25743
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:01:19 -
[33] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following. So instead of posting an argument, you're flashing your EVE subscription credentials?
That's a wonderful response.
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Sibyyl
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25743
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:16:11 -
[34] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Because it gives value to the gameplay when the wait is over. It makes the game play MEAN something. Having to wait to do stuff is not under attack by this change. That wait was already circumvented by Character Bazaar (the baggage of character name and reputation is minor to the issue). What I don't think adds any value is having to wait because you made a sub-optimal choice in skill selection earlier in your career. It doesn't mean anything at all that you get punished for a choice like that.
Maybe we can agree to disagree on that.
Quote:And that's fine, EVE isn't for everyone. If one is too un-creative to figure out what to do in game while they wait for something, that means they should learn patience, it doesn't mean "CCP, change the game now". Here we go. What is your 'creative' way of working around GCC, now that Hyperdunking is gone? Browsing the internet while you wait? Jumping on an alt? I'm confused why you're even arguing for GCC as a waiting concept anyway.
Quote:This is incorrect. It's not just about choices made in space. In the same way EVERY fight in EVE is decided while a player is docked, career progression ( a core part of the game) is decided at the skill que (again, with the one exception CCP has made, the Character Bazaar, which is in and of itself a kind of game. I don't think Skill Queue is a game at all. At least, there's about as much of a mystery to it as any mission in EVE. The ways to maximize a queue are documented everywhere. There is really nothing left to discover about it, and all it confers on EVE is a heavy penalty for past choices through an insufferable waiting period that the simple ability to respec would circumvent.
Would you be against respeccing without SP transfer?
Quote:I don't think you appreciate what this idea represents, or why many of us are against it. Do you think all of us are stupid? Do you think we don't want this game to be fun, or succeed? 'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
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Sibyyl
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:32:38 -
[35] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been.
What "wait to pvp"? It's pilot skills, remember?
I put it in quotes. This means I didn't say it myself.
But you make a fair point.
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Sibyyl
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:41:02 -
[36] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Why is everyone fine with paying additional money to a subscription game?
F2P mobile games are brainwashing the masses.
The battle is lost.
At least we're also getting new frigate toys to play with until the servers go dark.
The only reason why you would pay extra money into EVE for this change is being you might believe SP will make you a better pilot.
I don't think you believe that at all.
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Sibyyl
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:42:48 -
[37] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote: 'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
Think that because that's what you are showing me right now. Everything about this idea strikes me as wrong, I've explained as best I can why that is. Sorry if that isn't enough.
You thinking that is not enough. I don't believe you've adequately explained your reasons why.
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Sibyyl
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:52:31 -
[38] - Quote
The PLEX->AUR->MCT->ISK->PLEX workflow stability follows the PLEX to ISK conversion price curve.
I can't really speak to the motivation for AUR. I agree it's confusing.. but we already have MCTs for AUR and MCTs are essentially 30 days (or 2M SP).
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Sibyyl
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:55:42 -
[39] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I'm telling you, if this happens, it will be bad for the game, people will abuse it (I intend to, if for no other reason that to demonstrate to the DEVs why their idea was bad) and it will end up with CCP spending time and money to go back on it. It's better if this idea is still born now.
Jenn, you and I both. My plans have already been made. It will be glorious.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
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Posted - 2015.10.17 00:22:18 -
[40] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:This "plan" has nothing to do with alt recycling of any kind. It simply shows how you can basically create free alts on accounts who are always subscribed because they are part of an SP farm. This is interesting for ganking because of the limited skills needed there. I misunderstood your original post. Thanks for the clarification. From what you said:
Quote:since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way
You're saying SP is a commodity that will always retain its value (in fact its value will always closely follow the value of the most valuable commodity in the game now, which is PLEX). This commodity will be able to be earned by anyone:
- With a character with at least 5M SP
- 100% passively
- Without any interference from market forces that are faced by by all other passive income in the game, like PI or Industry
But something is off about your math. Specifically:
- You can only sell 4 skill packets "per month" (since the SP alt will only gain 2M SP/month at max)
- To sell 4 skill packets, you have to purchase 4 extractors with AUR or ISK
- In order to PLEX your account you will have to earn as much ISK as 1 PLEX + 4 Extractors
I don't see it happening.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
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Posted - 2015.10.17 00:33:15 -
[41] - Quote
Laodell wrote:What you're asking for is a world without consequences. No that's not correct. I just don't think having consequences for skill point choices leads to interesting gameplay. In fact, the only side effect is that you force someone to wait, which is the opposite of playing the game.
Quote:As for the character bazaar that line has been discussed. It is no where near buying SP. You're buying a character. You have to perform the research and make a wise decision. The Character Bazaar will be cheaper in terms of ISK per SP. It comes with downsides, but it has all of the advantages that are being criticized in this thread:
- Instant gain of SP without spending a second of training on any of them
- Cesspool for recycling of less reputable personalities of EVE (spies, corp thieves)
- Players skipping to end game content
- Players flying ships they have no clue about
- Favors IRL rich players. Rich players can buy characters with more SP
Quote:Being able to look at a persons reputation is paramount in determining the safety of a new corp-mate. Remove that and you remove a lot of the safety in building within the game. Then there's CODE destroying game play for the new players and driving them off too. What reputation? It is easy to bury a corp spy. Many spies jump corp to corp with impugnity. The so-called recruiter intelligence provided by Character Bazaar is not as significant as you're making it out to be.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25745
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Posted - 2015.10.17 00:34:13 -
[42] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Enjoy it while you can cause this game isn't gonna be around that much longer for you to enjoy the cheap gains from this disastrous mistake made by CCP. It's like we haven't heard this exact statement a million times before.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
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Posted - 2015.10.17 17:12:08 -
[43] - Quote
From https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3p0l7s/my_thoughts_on_sp_trading_as_a_whole_not_a_rant/cw2698n
Elise Randolph wrote:The devblog created kind of a huge shitstorm in the first hour or so, and I only saw two CSM's who were capable of expressing their opinion without hopping into the cesspool and slinging ****: Sort and Gorski. So mad props to those two. The big drawbacks that I've seen are
- People will make SP farming toons
- It'll be harder to evaluate character SP based on age
- Older players will abuse this to gain an insurmountable advantage
And probably some others. For the first bit...yea probably. But guess what? People currently make specialized characters to sell on the Bazaar. This doesn't cheapen any part of the game. Assessing character skill based on age will be a bit harder, but if that's a huge issue it's really easy to fix. There is no part of the brain-bag system that prevents adding a skillpoint tab to show info. I don't think it's a problem but v0v if it is, easy fix irrelevant to the mechanic. The third part is what gets me mega confused. Why would I spend billions of isk to get like 1mil unallocated SP? I have a hard enough time trying to choose what to train as is. The main argument I see is "because they can". Which a) I'm not sure how that's a real argument and b) wutface. Yea I could buy tons of **** and destroy it for no reason. In Eve, people aren't dumb. Players tend to spend their time doing things that'll help them. Newer players, especially those that catch the Eve bug early, will benefit from this. I started a new character last year or so and wanted to see what it was like. In the first 3 weeks I had a lot of fun, I flew a frigate, I PvP'd, I did missions. It was a blast. I was playing like 3 hours a night 4 times a week and made a fair amount of ISK from looting and salvaging. I had like, 3 bil by the end of 3 weeks. Then I hit this wall. Can't really try something new, can't fly T2 for a month, can't move up to cruisers that effectively, I had so much to catch up on in terms of support skills that I couldn't even consider moving up to a new class. And then I just stopped playing. Luckily I had a main to fall back on, but imagine if I was just John Q Pubbie. Three billion isn't enough to buy a new character on the forums. What if I could leverage my activity in the game (isk) to get 4 million SP and start moving on. There is of course this notion that misery loves company; when I started playing Eve I had to just train and not do anything for a few months - so everyone else should too! Right? I'd much rather see those people who are really into the game keep playing so that I can see them in space and interact with them. Getting people sucked into Eve for a few years instead of a few months? That's maximizing the misery right there. SKINS seems like monetization (one that the players have been begging for), but this doesn't. Maybe it's because I feel like the base mechanic has existed forever. If these brain bags were coming out of the ether instead of other pilots' heads, then I'd be screaming "cash grab". When a new idea comes out there are two things to talk about: the core principles of the idea, and the specific mechanics around that core. Personally I think the core idea is sound, though I am the first to admit that there should be some tweaks. In classic /r/Eve fashion the only data I have is rhetorical evidence based on when I played the game ten years ago, but damn if I don't feel entitled to have that listened to. So if we as a community can agree that the core principles are OK, regardless the presentation of the idea, then we can talk about the guts that make it work.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
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Posted - 2015.10.17 17:19:39 -
[44] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:If there is no correlation between SP's and in game skill then why would you need to be instantly boosted by the need for in game purchasing of skillpoints ?? I think a better question to ask is, if you agree that SPs do not confer skill to play the game, then why does the idea of buying SPs bother you?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25751
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Posted - 2015.10.17 19:17:43 -
[45] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
I guess you haven't been paying attention.
https://twitter.com/ccp_fozzie/status/654724219184386049
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25769
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Posted - 2015.10.18 21:59:38 -
[46] - Quote
I'm a fan of Elise Randolph's for various reasons. However, I feel that he's presented some arguments in favor of SP Trading which seem reasonable, on the surface, but don't quite take into account how the mechanic would affect EVE as a whole.
I'd like to summarize what I'm about to write (this is the tl;dr).
1. Character Bazaar and SP Trading are not comparable mechanics. The only similarity they have is the SP transfer, but we can't divorce the pros and cons of each when we compare them. 2. SP Trading devalues characters and removes consequences (not just the consequences of skill training choices). 3. SP Trading is pay to win. I'll clarify exactly what I mean by that. 4. SP Trading will be abused 5. There are better things CCP can spend time on to make EVE a better, more attractive game to new players.
Part 1: The Character Bazaar and SP Trading is not the same. It's false equivalency to say they're the same.
1.Motivation: The primary reason for Bazaar to exist is, as CCP says, to "discourage people from participating in illegal account sales on eBay and other sites".
SP trading does not inherently prevent RMT like the Bazaar does. Why? Because people can trade characters by exchanging login info even if CCP did not have a mechanism to transfer characters. However, there is no way that people can trade SPs today. This means SP trading doesn't exist in any illicit way that character transfers can exist. Thus, SP trading as a mechanism is not motivated by the need to prevent RMT. From the perspective of an "EVE Fan", it seems like CCP's motivation is a money grab.
2.Pros and cons: Let's talk about the second distinction between Bazaar and SP trading.
Bazaar: (A) Con: reputation, corp history, sec status. This is not immediately apparent, even with EVEWho, zKill, etc. (B) Con: character name (C) Con: Race is locked (D) Con: Gender is locked (E) Con: SP is untransferrable. From the point that you buy the character, they have to train realtime (F) Con: SP is locked to all the skills the original owner chose to train. (G) Con: 2 PLEX transfer fee baked into sale price (H) Con: If the sale is posted on Bazaar, then there is a public record of the "bundle of SP" being transferred to you (J) Con: Cost of skillbooks (if expensive) baked into sale price (K) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of seller. They have to transfer out excess inventory, move the character to a neutral location, add eveboard link, making a public post and bumping it, advertising the character amongst myriad alternate options, etc.
(L) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of the buyer. They have to transfer in inventory (and then possibly move it long distances), apply to the corp they want and pass the recruitment screening, do extensive research before buying the character, and then suffer all the consequences of "A" if they didn't do adequate research.
(M) Pro: Buyer instantly gains a bundle of SP they did not themselves train for (N) Pro: Probably? cheaper than SP trading in ISK/SP. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)
SP Trading: (i) Con: Probably? costs more than a Bazaar transfer. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)
(ii) Pro: Does not have any of the Cons of Bazaar, specifically A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L (iii) Pro: Increase SPs on your main who has the reputation, corp history, sec status, character name, race, gender, inventory in all the right locations, has already passed corp recruitment, is sitting in a station that you choose.
(iv) Pro: Increase SP without any auditing capabilities of where that SP came from. Why is this important? EVE is a game of reputation, and consequences for choices you make. When there is no audit process of how you are funnelling SP from disreputable alts, we turn EVE into a game where character choices no longer matter. Any corp theft, and corp spy can be recycled at a 20% SP cost (or less!). Conversely, the buyer never learns how to be careful and how to do research.
(v) Pro: Add SP to whichever skills you want, in any order you want. (vi) Pro: Not limited to scarcity. No upper limit on SPs being generated. Bazaar characters of all different kinds of professions can be found, but good characters are scarce. SPs will always be available. To give an analogue, in Bazaar Logistics V will not always be available at the price point or package (ie: character) you want. However, SPs will always be available on market, and always at bargain basement prices due to the nature of one-click-buy market goods.
(vii) Pro: SP will be the only passive income source in the game not subject to any shipping logistics (read: zero effort).
As you can see Bazaar and SP Trading are two completely different animals. It is a specious argument to insist that CCP is not adding a fundamentally different mechanic into the game.
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25769
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:00:29 -
[47] - Quote
Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.
EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.
The argument is that the character is simply the sum of its parts. Deconstruct and reconstruct SPs and functionally you have the same thing.
A character is more than the sum of its parts, and in order for the idea of a character retaining value, the SPs it has trained have to remain "trapped" inside that character. Why? Because everything else the character does is also "trapped" inside that character.. the metagaming choices she's made, the history she has with others, the Corps she's joined, the ships she has destroyed. None of these things can be wiped out because I believe we have an unspoken agreement that in EVE what's happened to a character is something they keep for the rest of their life. How can Skill Points, which is the most fundamental non-meta mechanic in the game, suddenly be divorced from characters wholesale without devaluing characters themselves?
The argument is that if you don't like your skills, and you want a different skillset, then go to the Bazaar and buy another character. But in doing so you have to sacrifice the reputation and the name of the character you have now.. the one you don't like so much. A character's race and gender have massive significance inside the EVE roleplaying community. A character's name has massive significance in all of EVE's communities. These character qualities are part of an important sacrifice that is missing in SP Trading, and simply putting a higher ISK/SP price on it is missing the point.
Part 3: SP Trading is Pay to Win
I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.
Is PLEX pay to win? No for 2 reasons: 1. Buying shinier things doesn't make you a better player automatically 2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the ISK to get a PLEX
Is Character Bazaar pay to win? No for the same 2 reasons as I listed for PLEX.
Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons: 1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money. 2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.
Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.
Let me list the ways: 1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Part 5: What can CCP do instead?
I think I've provided logical, rational, not emotional reasons for why SP Trading will be bad for EVE.
What can CCP do better to improve gameplay?
1. Fix skill training boosting implants so that they don't give players a reason not to undock 2. Improve all the irritating little things in UI that detract from us enjoying the game (there are massive lists that can be found in F&I).
And I wish I could shout you out
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:19:05 -
[48] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not entirely true.
Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:
K - N*5,000,000.
That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.
In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.
Thus, there is going to be a limit.
The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?
Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.
Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:23:32 -
[49] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:I'm just going to address this point, since I feel the others have already been counter-argued.
It is true, that EvE attempts to have players build characters and personalities. EvE have indeed spawned many in-game celebrities like, Chribba, The Mittani, James 315, etc.
But none of these players have become popular because of their SP pools. It is the deeds and their reputation that have made them popular. I don't think anyone have become popular because of SP alone, so I don't see how this change would devalue a character. The "value/reputation" of a character is still based on its deeds and actions, and not the possibility to inject some extra SP into their skill queue.
Interchagability is a slippery slope. Today it's SPs. Tomorrow it's character and Corp names. Day after it's race and gender.
It's not SP alone that's made these characters popular, but SP has a contribution. It's not like we know Chribba for his solo PVP mastery, or Chessur for his hisec mining dread. Their specifically allocated skill points have turned them into the characters we know today. Trying to divorce the SP from the character is a mistake.. it is the same mistake CCP is making.
And no, none of my other points have been counter-argued. But feel free to try.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:25:05 -
[50] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:@Sibyyl
Funny thing about the cons of the Baraar: (A) is irrelevant for buyers with existing social connections, benefiting established players over new ones, like we need more of that. (B)-(F) seem pretty irrelevant, you either accept the characters features and function or not, and if you do these aren't an issue. (G),(J) I'm not sure what the "con" is there. That there is a cost to doing business imposed by CCP? (H) Again, not sure what the issue is in itself. If anything this seems to work against (A) as the transfer of ownership is public. (K), (L) So it seems we're using being more of a pain in the Bazaar as a defense against this system? Seems more like an endorsement to me.
Saying these are not cons is not enough.
Put your feet in the fire and give me arguments as to why these aren't cons.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25773
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:28:55 -
[51] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Sibyyl wrote: Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.
Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.
It would be true, that this would be P2W if there did not exists a cap on skills. Luckily, it is the case, that you can only be so great "skill-wise" when you pilot each ship. A huge amount of SP dumped on one character is useless, since you will never be able to use these skills for one task. You will be able to do many things, but each thing you do, is still on par with a specialized character. This, combined with how EvE combat works have already proven, that this is really not P2W. It is pay to progress, giving people the option to more rapidly get the skills they desire for a fee. Since these skill points, have been extracted from other characters, the total SP amount is the same or less within the game.
I'll flip the argument on you. If you think SP is completely irrelevant to gameplay, why are you arguing in favor of a new mechanic for trading SPs?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25776
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:47:13 -
[52] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: (2) This is an issue why?
It's an issue because as long as you pay more money you can train faster than 2700/hr. By definition it's pay to win because another RL poor player can't do anything inside the game to catch up to accelerated training rates.
(3) What large alliances can provide is already different in scale.
If you think is a problem (and you should), then why arm them with SPs as another item in the toolbox? Malcanis's Law tells us newbies will not benefit proportionately. In fact, they will be at a greater disadvantage.
(4) We have participants vetted by skill over SP, not seeing the problem.
Do you know why some AT contestants train Rigging skills to V? It's not for the sake of watching the SP counter tick.
(5), (6) So we have a small spike between that and current subscribers trimming accounts, making the packets initial high price likely drop quickly assisting with accessibility, an overall positive. Room for abuse, but just needs policy vetted beforehand (unbiomassed characters cannot use extractors/etc)
I haven't seen any supporters add any required caveats to the system. Are you admitting that the system as it stands is open to abuse?
(7) From who? Buyers or sellers? Sellers unlikely since a functioning legal market without repercussion exists, buyers for the same reasons, unless insinuating that sellers are using it to create isk reserves for sale, but the Bazaar can hold the same function.
Sellers will RMT and CCP has no way that I understand of preventing it. How do you prevent RMT on skill packets? How would CCP even know? Big alliances are going to be giving these things away to newbies.
(8) Are we assuming these roles train to 50m SP? Are we further assuming the 100+ extractors to transfer SP will be viewed as a trivial expense regularly?
Corp thief, awoxer, spy roles are not >50m.
(9)Considering that this notion already has players looking at multi-billion purchases that disassociate themselves with their chosen identities reducing the overhead and strengthening their character investment seems like an overall positive.
Ripping off new players is a bad business model. Tradable SPs are there for new players. These SPs won't make them better players. How many newbies have you run into that "get" the game quickly enough that they would need to buy SPs? Do you think the newbies who "get" the game complain about waiting for training? You see the paradox in CCP's hypothesis behind this change?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25776
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually yes, you are arguing the 2 systems are incomparable due to the cons surrounding the Bazaar but not present in the proposed, and that as a result SP transfer is distinct and bad.
Regarding logistics, that's just a transfer from the character being a product competing against others to a packet that can't create the same unique draws and thus becomes a more competitive product with it's own logistical hurdles. It doesn't eliminate the concept, but migrates it to a better product. SP Trading is unbalanced, as it stands. It's un-auditable, RMT-able, comes without consequences, without logistics problems.. and all it asks for in return in (maybe) more ISK.
Calling it more competitive is like saying me giving to 10M ISK immediately is "more competitive" than you mining in hisec for an hour. Gimme's are "more competitive" but we're arguing against putting gimme's in the game in the first place.
Quote:As for whether I'm sure I'm an eve player, are you confused about the forum you're on? Calling character reputations, fixed character names, logistics.. all of these things that are a part of the EVE experience "a pain" is mischaracterizing the argument. "It sucks to have to ship things" is not enough of an argument unless we're talking about revamping the entire game and how character reputations and moving stuff around works.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
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Posted - 2015.11.10 06:30:39 -
[54] - Quote
This feature has been proposed as a way to help the new player. Without the ability to play the game well, SP does not confer victory. On this, we both agree.
However, let's look at ways in which SP is winning:
1. Flexibility in fitting (choice of modules) 2. Flexibility in ships you can fly 3. Making tighter fits 4. With two players of equal ability, victory favors higher SP
Now think about what #1, #2, and #3 does in large groups.
If you don't think the game stagnates because of the increasing gap betweens the haves and have-nots, this feature will arm large, wealthy groups with another tool that widens the gap between them and anyone who's not them.
Making a general statement like "SP isn't winning" and applying that to all aspects of EVE is a disingenuous argument. Of course SP confers an in-game advantage. This is why we are all skilling, and this is why this thread doesn't end.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
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Posted - 2015.11.10 06:37:29 -
[55] - Quote
And again, the difference between Bazaar and SP trading is this:
With the Bazaar, an IRL rich player still depends on the availability of high SP characters which is controlled by other players. High SP characters are not available in all favorable combinations of skill specialties, character histories, and so on. Availability is limited and SP is split up amongst multiple characters.
With SP Trading, an IRL rich player is only restricted by the size of his wallet. Other players and their choices no longer factor into how many SP can be gained. All of the SP can freely be voltron-ed into a single character.
People arguing that these two mechanisms are functionally equivalent are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26049
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Posted - 2015.11.10 07:26:53 -
[56] - Quote
Hey Tyberius, good to hook up with you again.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:What is being disputed is that:
a) The only way to obtain this advantage should be through tenure b) Once conveyed they should be immutable, even if loss would be involved otherwise c) Trading these advantages should require whole character transfers and the significant investment this entails d) These advantages are fair to characterize as "winning" and e) The ability to sell or trade SP between players for in game currency is therefore fair to characterize as pay to win
As yours is not the incumbent mechanic, it's up to you to argue why you think the fundamental process of the game should be turned on its head. I just demonstrated how the stated purpose (ie: helping new players) is actually backwards. It helps experienced players more than new players, and it helps create a wider SP gap instead of narrowing it.
Quote:I'm not sure the issues with large groups. Those entities are most likely to a) have access to high SP players unless specifically new player oriented and b) be able to mitigate SP inefficiencies through numbers, reducing the noteworthiness of any individuals performance gains. The issue is simply this.
1. Big groups do not today hand out free characters to their newbros. 2. Big groups will hand out free SP to their newbros.
Fleet comps, flexibility, tighter fits, meta modules, you name it. All of these increase the gap between a successful group and an unsuccessful one. This mechanism favors the wealthy. Big groups are wealthy.
Quote:The statement that SP isn't winning, when in the face of the even more disingenuous "this is P2W" argument is really just a less wordy version of "conveying an advantage created by players and traded between them on their terms doesn't constitute a pay for advantage from CCP equivalency or insurmountable barrier for those that chose or have chosen to train normally" Pay to win means there is nothing a person without IRL riches can do to achieve the same thing as an IRL rich person.
There is a pay to win mechanism existent today, the Character Bazaar. But Character Bazaar is a necessary evil to prevent RMT via un-preventable account transfers if Character Bazaar didn't exist.
SP Trading not only does not prevent RMT, it introduces a new RMT mechanism untraceable by CCP's current infrastructure (hey, please prove me wrong but I've yet to hear back on this). Why would you introduce a pay to win mechanism if it's not there to prevent RMT?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
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Posted - 2015.11.16 06:07:22 -
[57] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity. You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.
It disproportionately benefits newbros in large alliances. Why do you think this is good for EVE from a 10,000 foot view standpoint?
Let's not forget that newbros don't need SP to have fun. You've yet to demonstrate that SPs for newbros specifically is a problem that needs to be solved.
Quote:When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP). You completely lost me on your logic.
You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?
Quote:Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk? Why introduce the mechanism at all? You've just admitted it's at least as RMT-able as ISK? Currently the mechanism doesn't exist, but you'd like to introduce it so it turns into an RMT pipe?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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