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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2495
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:50:18 -
[1] - Quote
Good change. I think you should convert current learning implants to "extraction implants" and kill two birds with one stone.
Remember that the skill points are not being created. They have been earned by someone. The arguments which are made for the existence of the character bazaar apply here also.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2510
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Posted - 2015.10.18 11:23:24 -
[2] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash. This is exactly why I don't have a problem with the proposal. Skill points are not being created in a new way - they must still be earned by someone. The principle is the same as the character bazaar. Perhaps it would be better if the bazaar did not exist. But it does, and in its presence this is a good addition.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2518
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Posted - 2015.10.19 05:48:46 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Canadian Fire wrote:All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD. At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose. A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes. On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell. Screw that cap idea. Just open it up. The penalty for higher SP characters is already high enough with the reduced application rate.
My major complaint it that the idea has not yet been implemented.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:11:28 -
[4] - Quote
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:23:25 -
[5] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win. This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.
This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.
But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:34:33 -
[6] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash. I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them. These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited. Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities. People can conclude exactly the same thing now because of the Character Bazaar. You could also argue that a lot of people leave because they think it will take too long to catch up. In which case this change would be a net positive. Remember that CCP has feedback from players who leave the game to ponder.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:39:04 -
[7] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. How about: "looks like a horrible overprices paywall from a free2play title but the game actually costs 15$ a month." A new player will see this on the market. It's not hidden somewhere in the forums. He will see the normal slow passive accumulation of SP as a playwall so he spends more money on the game to purchase some internet spaceship skills for real money. I see no problem here. Slow accumulation of skill points IS a play wall in the sense of some content being locked, regardless of how relevant that is to enjoyment or relevance. If people wish to overcome that play wall with cash/ISK then good for them. It can be done with the bazaar right now.
I knew about the character bazaar within about a week of starting. It isn't exactly hidden.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:41:47 -
[8] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Zappity wrote:Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.
Pros - Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar. - Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression. - More income for CCP. - I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)
Cons - New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar). - Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.) - Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.) - I won't be able to tell how GÇÿpowerfulGÇÖ a character is by their age.
As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk. At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win. This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base. This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing. But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now. So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game. If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers. TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE. Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE. Time still plays a role. The SP is still earned, not created de novo. If you are talking about instant gratification vs time, the same argument can again be made for the bazaar.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2522
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:43:21 -
[9] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...currently there are no SP sinks... My pedantic side insists that I point out T3 cruiser destruction :)
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:52:18 -
[10] - Quote
Regarding SP farms, I actually don't mind this at all. SP will effectively become fungible and this will provide increased value for poorly skilled characters on the bazaar. Not good if you are a character trader but not bad for a seller.
But I think there will be a long period of rationalisation where the market soaks up unwanted SP. The price may even initially dip below the eventual long term price as people capitalise on their characters' SP fat. Good trading opportunities. I love that there is a built-in sink in the form of reduced application for high SP characters.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:54:28 -
[11] - Quote
Also, I really think CCP should increase the application reduction from 50m to 75m.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I have 60m SP. Shame on you for thinking that.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2523
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:03:10 -
[12] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Someone has spent the Time to develop that specific character to sell on the Bazaar, it would have taken him 1-2 Years to develop something of potential and then someone to use that character efficiently.
Time has a value. Integrating the new proposed skill extraction on mutiple accounts / alts to sell on the market for a 6 month old character to boost him self up to 200M SP because he can, goes against Values and Standards of vet players and effectively the majority of EVE player base.
Character Bazaar is a valid option to boost your SP since the characters have been developed through time and had some history to them. This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
But someone has similarly spent time creating the skill points which will appear on the market. Skill point CREATION does not change at all. You could argue that extracted SP will, on average, have taken longer to generate since character bazaar SP are generally highly optimised.
Edit: yeah, what he said above
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:12:12 -
[13] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase. It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:25:26 -
[14] - Quote
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
as does creating a TSP. this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time. But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time. Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it. You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE. Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / -ú is not right in my eyes. I will be disappointed if CCP do not add a renaming token, purchasable with aurum, shortly after the SP change.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2525
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:34:56 -
[15] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside.
Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2528
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Posted - 2015.10.21 08:11:08 -
[16] - Quote
Tav Breil'ya wrote:Obviously a way to get around for scammers and fraudsters.
Sad to see that money (ISK or real) can buy anything in the game, even long-term skilltraning.
A really, really bad idea to bring to the game to sell individual skillpoints off a character. and a really sad story for newbies to lose a multi-billion capital ship, just because they don't know how to play it, despite the skillpoints in the bank. It doesn't. Money buys the ability to EXTRACT skill points, not skill points themselves. And you will no doubt be able to purchase the extractors for isk on the market if you so desire.
Edit: just read the comment again and you mentioned isk. Perhaps that is where the difference in opinions stems from. I do not view isk and 'money'.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
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Posted - 2015.10.23 06:15:16 -
[17] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:I still say that there should be a cost in sp for the removal of the points that lessens with the sp total of the character so aa 5.5 million alt will be very inneficient relative to a 50 million sp character. Yes, it does favour the vets. Why not? There should be some perks for being old. I really dislike this "Won't somebody think of the children!" attitude. Most people who stay in the game are mature adults (well, some of them are anyway) and I think that inexperience in the game is being confused with inability to make personal decisions.
Let them do what they want. Don't limit new players accessing new content. They will figure it out. And if they make a mistake they will learn from it.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
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Posted - 2015.10.23 06:19:59 -
[18] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Dave Stark wrote:vikari wrote:Given the over all negative kick back from this idea, eve-o forums are nowhere near the "over all" for this feedback. in fact the negativity is pretty much isolated to eve-o. You mean "active players", I'd say that's a good thing. And before you start it, no people won't magically come back because of this change. They might come back for a month to (ab)use this idea and then they'll quit again for the reasons they quit earlier. Most of the podcast commentary has been positive regarding the feature and derisory regarding the eve-o forum response. Also, I doubt that CCP would agree that getting former players to log back in is not a good thing.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2532
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Posted - 2015.10.23 06:50:30 -
[19] - Quote
(Stupid forum)
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2533
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Posted - 2015.10.23 08:04:11 -
[20] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is about CCP not doing very well financially and desperately needing a new revenue stream. I heard a CCP dev (i think it was fozzie) on a podcast recently bragging that eve is doing well financial... They probably just need cash to put in to side projects like gunjack. Do you know which podcast?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2690
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Posted - 2016.02.14 19:45:41 -
[21] - Quote
I'd love to see some CCP Quant stats at the end of Feb showing how both ISK and SP distribution has shifted in response to skill trading.
I love the change - thanks CCP.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2690
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Posted - 2016.02.14 19:50:47 -
[22] - Quote
NVision08 wrote:6 years...now??? I will extract all my SP & sell it-perhaps buy some merchandise..for a vet player this is the time to leave. Thank the sky you just gave me the reason to enjoy reallife now - - - U SUK but I'm happy to break the chains now=ƒÿè. And a dozen younger players will be very happy to buy it from you.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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