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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32704
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:37:49 -
[1] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/JzaOqm4.png
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32708
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Posted - 2015.11.10 14:03:49 -
[2] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Sib, I love you and we should be married.
It was just a joke that I thought deserved to be made, image and all. My personal attitude toward all this SP stuff is neutral. I've suffered the skill trains and if this new system works out for newer players, I'm okay with that.
The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
The characters in the bazaar still have their market for having typically higher sums of SP. If you need a cyno alt, or want Covops V in a hurry, you use skill point inject pack things. If you need a capable triage carrier pilot in a hurry, you head to the bazaar.
Love you. XOXO
Poasted from my ipod nano
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 07:56:40 -
[3] - Quote
Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I'm not sure our expectations of the skill booster mechanic are the same. I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.
I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.
As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 03:03:32 -
[5] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic? This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though. You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do. There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd. I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH. I think what you're looking for is called "free to play." Either free, or a one-time cost like Diablo 3. I partly agree with you, that EVE could be free to play and I personally could get the same experience from it as I do now. The players and our interaction with each other is touted as a selling point of this game, so you could ask why there is a monthly subscription. But right now in this thread the question is why should this real money avenue for an advantage exist.
I can understand your expectation of the game being equally accessible to players unable to pay for extras like access to more SP. I just think it's acceptable for a video game with a profit motive.
The premise of a video game, in my opinion, is escapism and passing the time. Not necessarily productive, in fact very unlikely to be productive. But escapism isn't evil. People of all walks of life do it in different forms, whether it's movies, or books, or music, or TV. EVE is one of those things.
I didn't mean to come off as callous to upset you or anything like that. Entertainment has a real money cost, with things like books on the low end, and movies at the cinema at the higher end (two tickets and goodies from the concession stand at the theater will run you $50+ in the United States). Then there's EVE.
Over the number of hours we spend playing EVE in a month, I'd say the value of a subscription compared to the cost of a 2-hour movie is very high. Less than 25% of the money cost and ten times the replay. If you start replacing entertainment activities in your life with EVE, you start spending a lot less money, and it is safer and healthier depending on what you might otherwise do for entertainment.
For me that used to mean driving a lot and eating out and quite a bit of mixed alcohol. But anyway. EVE can be a very good idea in a lot of ways, one of them being money cost.
And then there's this thing in the game that you can buy or not buy, that helps you improve your character's stats a bit faster than baseline. I think it's understandable that I would rather have the option than lose it for the sake of players who might not be able to afford it.
I also think the "but poors" battle is already lost. A player can already buy a complete character for money but, more significantly, a player can subscribe and field more than one character at a time. In that case, no matter what you do with one character, it will be outpaced by multiple characters.
In my case, in terms of SP, my mains are training as you would expect. Some of them have +5 implant sets, a few don't, including this character. Their average rate of SP is probably around 2500 / hour. One character can train at 2750 an hour (or such), while the characters available to me are training at a collective rate of twenty five thousand SP per hour.
I checked just now and did the math, and the total SP of my gang is 1.46 Billion SP. I pay with annuals, spending ten times the real money subscription cost of a single account player. Nevermind this neural boost for AUR, players like myself have been paying to win for years.
The logic was simple: I could spec this character in a T1 battleship and officer fit a Vindicator for full gank to reach 2,100 DPS. Or I can start two more characters who fly their own T1 battleships and collectively reach 2,100 DPS. That was my thought process while starting in EVE and ratting in Curse with a Drake. All I wanted was to break rat tanks.
If it's PVP, the logic is the same. More characters provides an advantage.
Fast forward several years from starting out in Curse shooting Angel Cartel rats, to this configuration of my gang. http://i.imgur.com/nJOxxbi.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/gmX1Ftpl.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/KIgn44Cl.jpg (if a character of mine is in a ship, you can bet it has perfect skills for that ship).
So here we are in this thread about adding 125,000 SP to a character for ISK or AUR (or whatever the cost will be). It's kind of moot, in my opinion.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 04:19:23 -
[6] - Quote
Grr? Grr goons?
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32711
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:51:28 -
[7] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Grr? Grr goons? No it was definitely levelled squarely at your completely missing the point post from within an egocentric vacuum... your goon affiliation has nothing to do with it. I tried to explain my take on the situation, and talking about myself is the only way to do that.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32711
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:59:14 -
[8] - Quote
I could talk about other people's gameplay and experiences, but that's second-hand and hearsay.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32712
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 12:25:43 -
[9] - Quote
Ohhh I think I see now. These hypothetical players who don't have the spare time or funds, do they happen to find the time to post on eve-o?
I don't think they should be stricken from the game, I just don't think I should be without a thing on their behalf.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32714
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 16:53:44 -
[10] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote: So you insinuate that they don't exist ? Gimme a break, plenty of people in this game have limited playtime for whatever reason and surely the amount of threads on plex prices is evidence that not everyone has "fat stacks". I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad.
This post is a portmanteau of EVE memes and cliches.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32721
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:33:51 -
[11] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation. I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said: Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats. 1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game. 2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all. It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing. Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player. How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors? Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made. Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. (this is essentially the argument I'm reading) GÖÑ I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
Small groups can align with each other, but then technically that isn't a small group.
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President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32721
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:40:28 -
[12] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding? No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK. My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win. Whether I have the time or money, they're interchangeable resources for the purpose of obtaining stuff. If I didn't have money then I would need time, but luckily that isn't the case, and I can have either or.
As a sidenote, I was not enticed to participate in the boosters from the blood raider event. Way too much time required, even to log in and buy them from market. Even before the pricing, which I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, I wasn't at all interested.
Did I mention I probably won't participate in skill inject pack gameplay?
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32774
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 23:54:38 -
[13] - Quote
Correction: I might use skill packs to finish skills like Advanced Drone Interfacing V and Trade skills.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32799
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Posted - 2015.11.16 22:57:12 -
[14] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay. As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many. But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?). Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point? I was kinda space baller on my own, in a small independent (now alt) corp. Nothing stops a player from using wallet to pad their skill sheet, big group or small.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32799
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:59:47 -
[15] - Quote
And you know, as PLEX values rise, it becomes more of a wallet player's market.
AND my last three years of ten-subbing were done while attending school full-time, so there's that. You know, life priorities and stuff.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32803
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Posted - 2015.11.17 12:20:18 -
[16] - Quote
Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32805
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Posted - 2015.11.18 01:40:12 -
[17] - Quote
Worrying about other people's hypothetical situations is the basis of most of the dissent in this thread so far.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32806
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Posted - 2015.11.18 18:34:36 -
[18] - Quote
Yolandar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Worrying about other people's hypothetical situations is the basis of most of the dissent in this thread so far. I still care enough to worry about yours. ooh burnnned.
In other news, what was your post supposed to even mean.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33034
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Posted - 2015.12.02 12:54:47 -
[19] - Quote
without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33035
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Posted - 2015.12.04 13:07:07 -
[20] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland. If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like? Someone is using their JUMP... to conclusions mat!
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