|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
25975
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:45:07 -
[1] - Quote
I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts 2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player 3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to. 4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3? 5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs. 6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs. 7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT 8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs 9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:07:11 -
[2] - Quote
Marsha, you know I love you right? I think you're responding only to the surface of the arguments. I've written in much more depth about each, but let me talk about my points in response to your counterarguments.
1. Why do I refer to SP mules? No, SP mules under the new system is not the same as grooming characters for the Bazaar. Why? Because all of us have secondary and tertiary alts on our accounts that need limited SP (gankers, traders, mission runners, you name it). Grooming a character means you don't get to utilize that alt (I can give you the reasons for it, but I suspect you can figure out what these reasons are).
SP mules on the other hand can continue to train SP which you can transfer out while you fully utilize these mules for the limited purposes you've built them for.
Just as the comparison to Character Bazaar is specious, so is this. SP mules aren't Groomed Character Bazaar alts. They're entirely different, because SPs come with no reputation, burden, or set configuration. The characters thus generating this burden-less SP are not restricted by what you can do with them while they train.
2. "Heavily slanted to new players" wasn't the point. An IRL rich player gets an SP advantage that literally has no ceiling. They can pour as much money as they want, to gain as much SP as they want. This is not a reality that exists in the current system. The current system has high SP characters available, sure, but the availability is not under the control of the player who wants the SP. The Bazaar is a product of activity by multiple players.
In the new system, the only entity that controls how many SP a player gains is their wallet. Nothing that another player does has any effect on that determination.
Pay to win? You betcha.
3. If you thinK SRP is the backbone of the stagnation of the game, why would you support another mechanic that strengths SRP? I don't get it.
4. Please talk to anyone who trains for AT and ask them why they'd do something like training Rigging skills to V. Tight fits are the name of the game. SP and AT are tied together, sorry.
5. People can't unbiomass alts and then "voltron" all their SP into their main. Again, this sort of blind comparison to Character Bazaar is apples to oranges.
6. Why would EVE players return to cash in on SP? Probably because plenty of them have said they'll do exactly this on reddit. Accounts and money are under considerable RMT lockdown. It's not to say it doesn't happen in significant quantities, but the current PLEX to ISK conversion makes it less likely today, and accounts being passed to another player are easy to track using various network detection methods.
7. Alliances don't give away characters to their newbies en masse. Alliances will give away SP anywhere and everywhere. If you can expound on how exactly RMT for this mechanism can be detected and stopped, I'm all ears. I certainly can't think of a way, without effort from CCP that they have no current ability to staff.
8. You're arguing for the Awox switch now? The rest of your point is essentially arguing that awoxing, corp theft, spying, and so on is no problem at all. It seems a bit like a disingenuous argument. Do you really believe that all the players who choose to do this stuff are ineffective and their gameplay has no real impact on anyone?
9. Having hung out on GD for as long as we have, how well do you think EVE players grasp that SP doesn't automatically mean winning?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:13:05 -
[3] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains
I'm officially scared of you.
Quote:with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts. If you're like any other parent, you will have favorites amongst all your kids. If you're not ultra-rich, then lesser accounts with more overall SP is better. It's sort of a no-brainer, isn't it?
Quote:Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem? Sure, I'll concede this point especially after reading Quant's recent update. If lesser accounts translate to more activity then that's a great thing for EVE.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:21:01 -
[4] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.
I'd love to post a detailed response. Perhaps you can tell I'm not shy about the quantity of words in my responses.
However, I haven't taken any leaps for my assertions at all. I've described exactly where I've started and how I've arrived at my conclusions in the two posts linked in my sig.
It's completely your choice if you read them or not, of course.
You would also notice that in that same thread, I did not initially take the contra position just so I could understand each and every argument against this change. It helped refine the argument which arrives at the conclusions I've posted in this thread for the sake of brevity.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26047
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:13:26 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26053
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:13:46 -
[6] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
I love you too.
What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
One-sided perfectly skilled fleet comps give us gudfites how?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26057
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 06:19:17 -
[7] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said:
Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game.
2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all.
It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing.
Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player. How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors?
Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made. Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time.
(this is essentially the argument I'm reading)
GÖÑ
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26057
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 06:21:03 -
[8] - Quote
I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode.
Figures.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26061
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 19:02:10 -
[9] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding?
No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK.
My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26061
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 19:05:48 -
[10] - Quote
Ok Marsha, I was only teasing.
Portmanteau, I hope you recover from your flu and feel better.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26116
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:06:45 -
[11] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many.
But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?).
Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26119
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:30:14 -
[12] - Quote
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
Incarna survey by T'amber link here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1395464&page=1
80% of EVE players against non-cosmetic microtransactions using AUR. Specifically: "you think that because you pay a set fee each month that you should have access to all the options and features ingame that everyone else gets"
Quote:Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.
That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.
We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.
Source: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1341909&page=1#7
CCP Shadow wrote:Just for clarification, the skillpoints CCP will be giving pilots to make up for the extended downtime in this case is not tied to microtransactions.
Editing to add this: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE.
. .
No. There are no microtransaction plans, whatsoever. I wrote "in this case" because this extended downtime was an unusual situation. It's not every day we relocate our servers to a new facility.
Source: http://eve-search.com/thread/1543814-0/page/1#7
Quote:Quote:Are you trolling me bro? Cool Our business model isn't changing, you all have nothing to be concerned about.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26251
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 07:17:15 -
[13] - Quote
I agree, Marsha. Player suggestions for rule changes have been spectacular failures in action.
We can argue all day long, but none of us are looking at the raw numbers and data that CCP is.
I would like an answer to the RMT question that many have wondered about now. Why bother introducing something that increases (not decreases) RMT in the game?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26254
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:47:22 -
[14] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Eliminate the profit motive (for players) and just let CCP sell the packets for AUR. That now becomes microtransactions, however, yet eliminates the 'greed' issues with the proposal. Damned if you do...
The reason why players have protested microtransactions, it is because these mechanisms are open to wide abuse with enough ISK or RL money. Exposing Skill Points to that abuse will have a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game.
(what's the effect? Wider separation of have's and have-not's)
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26256
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:42:05 -
[15] - Quote
PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX is an alternative because people can buy ISK without PLEX (i.e.: RMT).
People can't buy SP today (it's not part of the game mechanics).
When SP Trading is introduced, you are also opening up the path for SP to be traded for money (an RMT possibility didn't exist before). Since legal SP Trading will always be priced less competitively than the RMT alternative (since SP Trading is being introduced as a microtransactional source of income for CCP, not as an RMT preventer like PLEX) we're talking about a previously nonexistent pipe of RMT.
I have my doubts as to how this RMT pipe can be policed. This RMT pipe, since it's new, will require additional policing resources. And how would you prove that any SP is RMT anyway?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26261
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 03:42:21 -
[16] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid.
I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP.
Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical.
Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26275
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 18:41:17 -
[17] - Quote
Hi Marsha,
I was going to wish you a good Thanksgiving, but I realized where you're from.
Mechanisms of RMT and their solutions:
1. ISK Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can give money to an ISK farmer. Solution: PLEX. Offers a legal path to instantly gain ISK at a competitive price.
2. Character trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can exchange account logins in exchange for money. Solution: Character Bazaar. Offers CCP muscle against scams. Competitively priced (only 2 PLEX).
3. SP Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently not a game mechanic. CCP would have to introduce it in the game, in order for players to RMT by trading SP for money. Solution: ???
Asura, sorry I don't argue against thesauruses. Give me a substantive argument. All you're doing is saying "you're wrong".
Tyberius, good to see you in the thread! I will respond after I stuff these chickens..
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
|
|
|