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Why are second-hand ships and modules just as good as new?

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Kaivar Lancer Placid Peace Corps 687	Posted - 2015.10.21 02:21:54 - [1] - Quote Is anyone else bothered by how second-hand ships and equipment are just as good as those that just have been manufactured? I was thinking of buying a freighter, and analysed the cost of holding one. Then I realised that there was no long-term cost, as ships and modules don't degrade over time. When I was finished with the freighter, I could simply resell it at full value in the future. It doesn't work like that in the real world. Yeah I know Eve is a game, but this seems very immersion-breaking. Should ships / modules degrade over time? Or perhaps introduce a temporary "meta" level for brand new ships and equipment that provide a slight buff until they're repackaged / unfitted? It would give industrialists a reason to manufacture new goods.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9379	Posted - 2015.10.21 02:27:43 - [2] - Quote It's a discussion we've had before. If I recall correctly, one of the devs was saying that the database (or something) couldn't handle it. As well, since most people play zoomed out, it shouldn't be a high priority project, in my opinion. No one's going to see it. Still, it would be great to see it in the game one day. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Adunh Slavy 1624	Posted - 2015.10.21 02:32:27 - [3] - Quote Because large tables are expensive. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
Memphis Baas 709	Posted - 2015.10.21 02:59:54 - [4] - Quote The database would have to track what happens to every ship as it is used, basically. So instead of 5,000 people with 5,000 Kestrel frigates, all identical, you'd have 5,000 people with 5,000 different ships (each ship with some unique state of decay that has to be tracked in the database). So, yeah, it's a discussion we've had before (deemed not feasible with the current computer hardware), and large (data) tables and charts require expensive server hardware to handle and keep track of.
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 119	Posted - 2015.10.21 03:05:27 - [5] - Quote Good idea, but I don't want the sub to double in price to fund the new servers that would be needed to handle this much data. Trust me, I'm a programmer "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Otso Bakarti Filial Pariahs 381	Posted - 2015.10.21 03:18:18 - [6] - Quote The same reason you never need fuel all day. Fear of death follows from fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. -Mark Twain -
Divine Entervention Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 714	Posted - 2015.10.21 03:36:07 - [7] - Quote Same reason it's OK to date a chick who's not a virgin.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40553	Posted - 2015.10.21 03:39:08 - [8] - Quote I'm not so sure I agree. Eve progresses in real time, so if you were planning to buy a spaceship and then sell it again even a couple of years later, how much would it have changed in that time? It's not like buying a car for us here on Earth, it's more like NASA building a space program and having a new ship with an expected life of 30-40 years operation. Some of our ships have thousands of crew, which would include engineers and maintenance teams and just like there is on going maintenance of aircraft and return flight space craft (eg. Shuttle program), over the period of just a couple of years, those ships are kept in as new condition and that's now. 20,000 years into the future with ships that never enter atmosphere, who knows, but I'd expect if humans are still in existence and are flying around the galaxy, ships will probably have pretty good maintenance regimes. Obviously just speculation, but not something immersion breaking from my perspective. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Davis TetrisKing The Vendunari End of Life 143	Posted - 2015.10.21 04:34:13 - [9] - Quote Scip, you forgot about upkeep costs. It should cost me isk to hire the crew and pay for upkeep, even storage space is expensive IRL. I've often thought that its strange it doesn't cost me anything to have stuff sitting around ready to go all over new eden. Maintenance costs money. I think all this sort of stuff comes down to practical, non lore reasons. As mentioned tracking decay on each ship would be a massive load on the servers. Also it'd suck to have a break from the game and find out all your stuff is now 20% worse simply because it's aged, or that you have this massive bill to pay for upkeep before you can use the stuff. The idea has merit, and I'm sure CCP thought of it, but I just don't think it's practical.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1581	Posted - 2015.10.21 04:35:14 - [10] - Quote Well providing the next time CCP decide something is too popular and nerf it my old ship gets to keep the pre-nerf stats I am all for it :D As for the lore reason everything stays shiney - its the nanites, or in the case of us Minmatar Duct Tape.
Davis TetrisKing The Vendunari End of Life 143	Posted - 2015.10.21 05:07:18 - [11] - Quote Damn, as someone who's job it is to maintain equipment IRL I'd love to get my hands on some of that minmatar duct tape...
Yusef Brion Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc. 25	Posted - 2015.10.21 05:35:27 - [12] - Quote Because nanites. I have other thoughts on the issue, but I think they will be in a different thread. The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes. Part o f the encryption.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1933	Posted - 2015.10.21 06:36:34 - [13] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: Well providing the next time CCP decide something is too popular and nerf it my old ship gets to keep the pre-nerf stats I am all for it :D As for the lore reason everything stays shiney - its the nanites, or in the case of us Minmatar Duct Tape. it's not the duct-tape it's the fedos http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/fedo/ there is a reason I've always said gallente/minmatar space is stinky! @ChainsawPlankto
Eternal Bob Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 51	Posted - 2015.10.21 07:24:31 - [14] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Is anyone else bothered by how second-hand ships and equipment are just as good as those that just have been manufactured? No.
Professor Professington The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.10.21 08:07:26 - [15] - Quote Dear OP: Opportunity cost Sincerely, Economics
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 25467	Posted - 2015.10.21 09:47:01 - [16] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Is anyone else bothered by how second-hand ships and equipment are just as good as those that just have been manufactured? I was thinking of buying a freighter, and analysed the cost of holding one. Then I realised that there was no long-term cost, as ships and modules don't degrade over time. When I was finished with the freighter, I could simply resell it at full value in the future. It doesn't work like that in the real world. Yeah I know Eve is a game, but this seems very immersion-breaking. Should ships / modules degrade over time? Or perhaps introduce a temporary "meta" level for brand new ships and equipment that provide a slight buff until they're repackaged / unfitted? It would give industrialists a reason to manufacture new goods. Ship manufacturers aren't constantly churning out new models every year, a 2008 Dominix is the same as a 2015 Dominix, spares and the expertise to replace parts is readily available. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Wendrika Hydreiga 537	Posted - 2015.10.21 10:31:45 - [17] - Quote First of all, Science Fiction. New Eden is a place where you can virtually build ships with 3D Replicators with nothing but a Blueprint and a truckload of raw minerals. And we can use nanomachines, son. Those little buggers can repair anything! And there's a good reason why you have to repackage ships and modules before you can sell them. ISK is a funny currency you see, with it's value being several magnitudes above what the common folk uses as currency planetside. A single ISK can pay a frigate crew for an entire month, as such, costs for minor ship maintenance and crew are so nominal that we can ignore them mechanic wise. When we do have to preform major repairs on our ships and modules, is because they are so bent up you have to replace entire segments of the thing entirely.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40555	Posted - 2015.10.21 10:35:23 - [18] - Quote Davis TetrisKing wrote: Scip, you forgot about upkeep costs. It should cost me isk to hire the crew and pay for upkeep, even storage space is expensive IRL. I've often thought that its strange it doesn't cost me anything to have stuff sitting around ready to go all over new eden. Maintenance costs money. I always die before they reach payday. Has saved me a few ISK. Serves them right for agreeing to crew my ships. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2015.10.21 11:33:18 - [19] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: The database would have to track what happens to every ship as it is used, basically. So instead of 5,000 people with 5,000 Kestrel frigates, all identical, you'd have 5,000 people with 5,000 different ships (each ship with some unique state of decay that has to be tracked in the database). So, yeah, it's a discussion we've had before (deemed not feasible with the current computer hardware), and large (data) tables and charts require expensive server hardware to handle and keep track of. I'm a bit puzzled about the 'not feasible' statement myself. Back in 2003, I used to play a game where almost every single item degraded on use. So it was definitely feasible with 2003 tech, even if there were issues when large amounts of players gathered. Still, this is 2015, you'd expect progress... Incidentally: this made for a WAY more interesting economy, since favorite high value items could not be preserved forever, even with repairs.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3443	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:15:00 - [20] - Quote Considering that the service life of a modern warship and it's weapons systems is about 30 years and the kind of problems that result from system age tend to be "ship suddenly loses half it's propulsion capability without warning for an entire week" or "you try and launch a missile but it doesn't work for no explicable reason so you spwndnthe next two weeks figuring out what happened" having items "degrade" in a perceptible way in game would neither realistically represent how large scale weapons systems degrade nor would it be fun.
Jack Hayson Atztech Inc. Ixtab. 297	Posted - 2015.10.21 12:59:35 - [21] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: The database would have to track what happens to every ship as it is used, basically. So instead of 5,000 people with 5,000 Kestrel frigates, all identical, you'd have 5,000 people with 5,000 different ships (each ship with some unique state of decay that has to be tracked in the database). That's already how it works with assembled modules and ships. In principle it would be possible to have ships and modules decay when used, but you'd have to get rid of repackaging for that to have any real impact, which means that you'd have to sell all your used stuff via contracts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJhHu_i7B0Q
Sentient Blade Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate 1543	Posted - 2015.10.21 13:24:28 - [22] - Quote Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: nanomachines, son This made me laugh unexpectedly.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6891	Posted - 2015.10.21 13:27:48 - [23] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: The database would have to track what happens to every ship as it is used, basically. So instead of 5,000 people with 5,000 Kestrel frigates, all identical, you'd have 5,000 people with 5,000 different ships (each ship with some unique state of decay that has to be tracked in the database). So, yeah, it's a discussion we've had before (deemed not feasible with the current computer hardware), and large (data) tables and charts require expensive server hardware to handle and keep track of. So what you're saying is that when my Kestrel gets damaged, every Kestrel with the same fits also takes damage because they are all sharing properties? Not sure that's how it works. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 120	Posted - 2015.10.21 17:13:26 - [24] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: The database would have to track what happens to every ship as it is used, basically. So instead of 5,000 people with 5,000 Kestrel frigates, all identical, you'd have 5,000 people with 5,000 different ships (each ship with some unique state of decay that has to be tracked in the database). So, yeah, it's a discussion we've had before (deemed not feasible with the current computer hardware), and large (data) tables and charts require expensive server hardware to handle and keep track of. So what you're saying is that when my Kestrel gets damaged, every Kestrel with the same fits also takes damage because they are all sharing properties? Not sure that's how it works. Here is how a general game design should roughly work (Dev can state specifics). Basically you have a Kestrel class that defines everything about the Kestrel ship, then a log is created stating locations of this ship across New Eden. If you applied wear over time, then you would have to have separate data for every Kestrel out there, you cant just copy and paste the class as you would have identically new ships for everyone. In other words, its like everyone using a computer off of a localized server, every one has the same experience but you cant modify the server. But with wear, its like instead of a server, everyone gets their own computer that they can modify, but they arent interconnected like the server is. "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5464	Posted - 2015.10.21 17:24:30 - [25] - Quote Well, CCP is adding rust to skins.
cyboman Mafia Italiana 13	Posted - 2015.10.21 17:26:53 - [26] - Quote I don't like this idea at all. I played an online game where things degrade and the econ was jacked. Made it very hard to progress without just throwing more cash at the game. No... Just no. Cyboman 07
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 120	Posted - 2015.10.21 17:28:57 - [27] - Quote I would have to agree, while it can work, I don't want it. Too many annoying aspects while time can be spend on other things, like IDK trying to read the POS legacy code? "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 258	Posted - 2015.10.21 20:46:58 - [28] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Is anyone else bothered by how second-hand ships and equipment are just as good as those that just have been manufactured? I was thinking of buying a freighter, and analysed the cost of holding one. Then I realised that there was no long-term cost, as ships and modules don't degrade over time. When I was finished with the freighter, I could simply resell it at full value in the future. It doesn't work like that in the real world. Yeah I know Eve is a game, but this seems very immersion-breaking. Should ships / modules degrade over time? Or perhaps introduce a temporary "meta" level for brand new ships and equipment that provide a slight buff until they're repackaged / unfitted? It would give industrialists a reason to manufacture new goods. Because auto-repair drones inside and outside of your ships are constantly working to keeping your ship up and running. They just having figured out how to make those work to repair structure and armor. Been around since the beginning.
Hengle Teron Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate 58553	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:55:41 - [29] - Quote Good maintenance, obviously.
DaReaper Net 7 2640	Posted - 2015.10.21 23:03:58 - [30] - Quote you cna do some basic reseach, i'm not gonna do it for you i don;t feel that nice. Look at the dev blogs around the time of the skin pilot program and you will get an explination on how the database works. ok so i am nice.. sigh Blog "Would you like to know more? Since this is a pilot program intended to gather data, we went ahead and started with the simplest implementation even though that might not be the actual long-term solution. For instance, legacy technical matters prevent us from changing the skin of a ship if that ship retains its original typeID. To introduce a differently painted Rifter, we would have to create a new typeID for that Rifter, and of course it cannot be called GÇ£RifterGÇ¥ since that name is already in use. So the new ship has to be called GÇ£Rifter, green editionGÇ¥ or something similar. And a different typeID means that it has its own market group, its own entry on the overview, etc. Needless to say, this prototype model gets exponentially unsustainable at a larger scale. Having 24 different Rifters would mean 24 more market entries, 24 more overview entries, etc. Not very pleasant for players trying to use it or developers trying to maintain it. And speaking of market groups, the painted ships will of course be sellable for ISK on the market and in contracts, and be tradable just like any other item in EVE. The blueprint copies will also follow the normal trading rules. This will provide even more opportunities to players who wish to obtain the painted ships using their in-game ISK currency." there is more but i'm not THAT nice OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining! Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom

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