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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.29 18:27:00 -
[1]
 Quote:
<<<Battleship Blueprint Copies:>>>
Armageddon bpc ME10 1 run..........5 mil isk
Apoc bpc ME10 1 run ...................10 mil isk
Scorp bpc ME10 1 run ..................5 mil isk
Raven bpc ME10 1 run..................10 mil isk
Megathron bpc ME10 1 run...........10 mil isk
Tempest bpc ME10 1 run...............10 mil isk
Great prices for licenses, no doubt. Good enough to dissuade purchasing the manufactured ships.
Now I can't blame Xanadu for their practices. It's smart business. Blueprint copies are a no cost 100% profit item. But what's the point of having the ability to manufacture in light of them? Why not just eliminate manufacturing entirely and let people give the copies + minerals to an NPC to manufacture the item for them?
Tech Lvl 2 items will have restrictions to make copying 'less attractive'. But there has been no mention of the Tech Lvl 1 items receiving the same restrictions. And I don't know who is deluded enough to believe that when the Castor patch finally arrives, counterparts for every tech lvl 1 item will be a part of it.
Does anyone believe that there will be an agent availible that has access to any of those ships listed above? That it'd be appropriate for a lvl 3 agent to have access to battleship level blueprints? What are lvl 4 and 5 agents, which will not be part of the patch, have? Secret blueprints that must be kept from the Rebel scum capable of building a station the size of a small moon, with a laser that destroys planets?
Copying needs to go. Complete, utterly and undeniably needs to be lost for good. I am not aware of any game that has made such a collosally large mistake in allowing people to copy and trade the formulas needed to craft an item. The reason none have done it is because they all knew the results:
No need for the crafters.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lola
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Posted - 2003.11.29 18:37:00 -
[2]
Those prices for copies sure make buying an original look like a worthless endeaver. 
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Ravenal
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Posted - 2003.11.29 18:46:00 -
[3]
by buying a copy the craftsman accepts a marginal loss in sales (the isk value of the blueprint) compared to the same item made from an org copy he already has.
a craftsman with an org blueprint COULD either sell the item for the value of the bpc less than the craftsman using the bpc. effectively making the bpc craftsman less compatible in pricerange OR he could sell it at the same price and make more isk per item sold than the bpc craftsman.
every item needs a craftsman to make it...they will always be needed.
THEN there is the research aspect. A dedicated researcher (who might later become a proficient craftsman) starts by earning small time isk selling reserached copies of small org bps his agent provides him with (talking tech 2 here). the dedicated craftsman actually earns isk by buying from the dedicated reseracher because he doesnt have to spend the big time cash, time and skill training to become one himself. Cash earned is through the specialized features the reseracher grants to his blueprints (production efficience = more items made in storter time and mineral efficiency = less mineral spent) - added to that will be production/reserach specific bonuses we dont yet know how will be implemented.
all in all, you will always need craftsmen...and more than ever in the tech 2 release
...new sig coming up
Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
Karmae
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Posted - 2003.11.29 18:48:00 -
[4]
I hear ya Jash!
I myself bought a bs bpc because buying one at the store station was too expensive.
On the flip side original bp are soo expensive the bp owner sure need another way to repay his bp other than selling the final product.
So yes bpc's are a problem, but to remove them you need a solution ;)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.29 18:53:00 -
[5]
Quote:
I hear ya Jash!
I myself bought a bs bpc because buying one at the store station was too expensive.
On the flip side original bp are soo expensive the bp owner sure need another way to repay his bp other than selling the final product.
So yes bpc's are a problem, but to remove them you need a solution ;)
With the ability to self manufacture removed without the investment cost, the solution presents itself:
Pay the price or don't fly the ship.
Blueprint originals are long term investments. Anyone that fools themselves into believing they'll instantly recoup their investment is just that: a fool.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.29 19:08:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Those prices for copies sure make buying an original look like a worthless endeaver.
It does? You don't have to sell more than 100 copies to get the entire cost of the blueprint back.
I'd say it the other way, that orignal blueprints should cost much more.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Ravenal
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Posted - 2003.11.29 19:16:00 -
[7]
yeah, well...it takes some time to gain back the billion isk spent to buy the original.
considering the time spent reseraching the bp to a satisfactory mineral level and the time it takes to make a blueprint copy...not mentioning hoping that the market doesnt collapse before you actually make any profit is well...all in all i think its an ok risk.
its always the consumer who decides if he wants to pay the price, i know i refrained from buying miner II at the absurd prices...didnt stop everybody though.
considering for example the miner II bp...you can never make as much money making bp's or reseraching the bp as simply making the item itself...as long as you can sell all the items you make. as soon as the blueprint has a "day off" from the factories you might want to use the time to marginally improve your profits by applying appropriate research methods.
so, an original lying around doing nothing is isk down the drain (so to speak given time is isk)...
compared to mining...where you have the mining skill, astro skill, refining efficiency and finally production efficiency and of course the mineral efficiency of the bp used for production to increase the effective yield of every minute of mining...the making and selling of bpc's is miniscule.
...new sig coming up
Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
KrapYl
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Posted - 2003.11.29 20:55:00 -
[8]
poor jash, someone undercut ur prices ? :D
No, Jash. I do believe ur 100% right, an original shouldnt make copies forever... take it all the way :D
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.29 21:05:00 -
[9]
Quote:
poor jash, someone undercut ur prices ? :D
No, Jash. I do believe ur 100% right, an original shouldnt make copies forever... take it all the way :D
I'd not be upset if I actually sold bpcs and people were undercutting me.
0 Cost = No set price range.
Maybe I should load up the labs with originals and sell the copies for 1% of the production cost to make a point. As someone said, an idle bp is wasted. 500k for a Scoprion bpc? 50k for a Rupture BPC? Hell there's all sorts of potential fun to be had 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.29 22:02:00 -
[10]
BPCs are pointless. Lose 'em.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Kalar Vrask
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Posted - 2003.11.29 22:14:00 -
[11]
I can hear it now :-
Buh buh buh but my Science 5 won't do anything then.
Blue Nun! Lambrusco! Asti Spumante!
And a lump of Stilton, please.
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Tyria Evenstar
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Posted - 2003.11.29 22:19:00 -
[12]
I agree. BPCs are lame. Get rid of them. It's one of the reasons why everyone is in a battleship - which is bad. Also BPCs makes any manufacturing profession pointless.
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Relic
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Posted - 2003.11.29 23:36:00 -
[13]
Hi Jash,
I amazed you are still fighting the good fight when it comes to getting CCP to focus on getting the game play right in this
game.
If anyone needs an example of how bad the BP copy market has got, just look at the market for Tachyon BPs you can purchase the original for 16M or a researched BP copy to produce 300 for under 1M.
The real problem is not the fact that people can research and copy a BP rather the cost of the slot rental and time need for doing so is far to low.
Relic
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.30 00:06:00 -
[14]
"I can hear it now :-
Buh buh buh but my Science 5 won't do anything then."
... They will still need that Science 5 to even start thinking of tech.2 production... would be more concerned with those crying how they paid the money for the BP copies, so no one has the right to nerf them.
(nevermind people also pay money for the ship modules which are then nerfed to hell and back, and somehow it's considered OK... >>;;
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 30/11/2003 01:03:49
I fail to see what the issue is? This is not ment to be pro or against but can someone explain why it is bad for someone who has gotten a BP original and does not want to build the item but rather research it, make copes and sell them to people that want to build? I saw the problem with unlimited BPCs, but since they are tech 1 does it matter? Having read the various postings of the Devs, tech 1 is suppost to be the really basic items that everyone can pretty much get anywhere and were not ment to be the basis for the player economy.
(Actually, I read somewhere back in Beta that BPs were to only be copied 3 times but be unlimited. CCP blew that and then changed the whole paradyme. Personally, I like this way better.)
So, can someone explain why it is wrong to sell limited run copies of owned BPs?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:11:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 30/11/2003 01:03:49
I fail to see what the issue is? This is not ment to be pro or against but can someone explain why it is bad for someone who has gotten a BP original and does not want to build the item but rather research it, make copes and sell them to people that want to build? I saw the problem with unlimited BPCs, but since they are tech 1 does it matter? Having read the various postings of the Devs, tech 1 is suppost to be the really basic items that everyone can pretty much get anywhere and were not ment to be the basis for the player economy.
(Actually, I read somewhere back in Beta that BPs were to only be copied 3 times but be unlimited. CCP blew that and then changed the whole paradyme. Personally, I like this way better.)
So, can someone explain why it is wrong to sell limited run copies of owned BPs?
Quote:
If anyone needs an example of how bad the BP copy market has got, just look at the market for Tachyon BPs you can purchase the original for 16M or a researched BP copy to produce 300 for under 1M.
What's the point of being a manufacturer?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:24:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 30/11/2003 01:03:49
I fail to see what the issue is? This is not ment to be pro or against but can someone explain why it is bad for someone who has gotten a BP original and does not want to build the item but rather research it, make copes and sell them to people that want to build? I saw the problem with unlimited BPCs, but since they are tech 1 does it matter? Having read the various postings of the Devs, tech 1 is suppost to be the really basic items that everyone can pretty much get anywhere and were not ment to be the basis for the player economy.
(Actually, I read somewhere back in Beta that BPs were to only be copied 3 times but be unlimited. CCP blew that and then changed the whole paradyme. Personally, I like this way better.)
So, can someone explain why it is wrong to sell limited run copies of owned BPs?
Quote:
If anyone needs an example of how bad the BP copy market has got, just look at the market for Tachyon BPs you can purchase the original for 16M or a researched BP copy to produce 300 for under 1M.
What's the point of being a manufacturer?
Well, what is the point of being a researcher?
But besides that, the tech 2 BPs that have been seen, admittedly on the Miner2 shows that with limited distribution and high research costs, it is more effective to build and sell rather than just copy. However, should the researcher that develops new tech not have the right to sell off the fruits of their labor and make a living? While I am a manufacturer, and your right, the current economic climate sucks. But I was still selling ships (industrials and cruisers) about as fast as I could build them. I was only get 5-10 percent profit over the base cost of the NPC price of materials.
Oh Jash, I am not a miner and dont mine to sell ore or minerals, I buy both actually.
Has anyone with access to a tech 2 BP done any analysis to see what the research to manufacturing relationship is?
Jash, on this issue I have not reached to point of advicating either position, just looking to see what the actual impact will be once we start on Tech 2 and above.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:43:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Well, what is the point of being a researcher?
Requirements to create a blueprint copy:
Science lvl 1.
If that's being a researcher, I'd think it appropriate to call a toddler fingerpainting in preschool working on their Doctorate.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:43:00 -
[19]
Quote:
However, should the researcher that develops new tech not have the right to sell off the fruits of their labor and make a living?
If Tech II blueprints are reasonably rare, selling an Original will make someone plenty of "living," I assure you.
The fact is, if Originals can produce unlimited copies, the Market is already on a downward spiral. It might take awhile to hit rock bottom, but it will get there through virtue of simple mathetmatics.
Basically BPCs create an environment where manufacturers outnumber consumers by huge margins. This means prices will be absolutely minimized, profits will be minimized, and we'll have the same problem we do currently with people selling just above cost simply to make the sale.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Ravoc
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Posted - 2003.11.30 01:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ravoc on 30/11/2003 01:59:05
Edited by: Ravoc on 30/11/2003 01:57:49
Quote:
Requirements to create a blueprint copy:
Science lvl 1.
If that's being a researcher, I'd think it appropriate to call a toddler fingerpainting in preschool working on their Doctorate.
Nice way of putting it 
I'm not against the presence of BPC but they shouldn't be this uniform. Variations or "quality" measures (not as mineral or production efficiency) should be included, perhaps in the form of a chance of success in manufacturing a run from it. This will make copied BP's much more risky to use and will make originals much more valuable.
That chance of success could then (partly) be determined by the science skill level.
__________________________________
Signature currently under construction... |
Ravenal
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Posted - 2003.11.30 02:24:00 -
[21]
Jash: the way i see it you are 100% correct when it comes to the "cheap" endless amounts of the tech1 blueprints.
another deal entirely is applying the current method to the tech 2.
...new sig coming up
Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 02:54:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Jash: the way i see it you are 100% correct when it comes to the "cheap" endless amounts of the tech1 blueprints.
another deal entirely is applying the current method to the tech 2.
I'm not particularly worried about the tech lvl 2 bps. At least not until people reach the required skills to make a copy.
What my primary concern is the ignorance surrounding the longevity and viability of the TL1 equipment. Loosely translated: we're likely to be using TL1 equipment far longer than people expect. Especially when it comes to ships.
Minmatar lvl 3 agents hand out Miner II bps. Given the overall importance of that blueprint if there are other TL2 blueprints availible, let's assume they get shifted down to lvl 1 agents. What level agent do you suspect would would be appropriate for even a TL2 frigate bp? Lvl 2 agents? Doubtful. Uh oh...we've only got 1 more lvl agent availible as we know lvl 4 agents will be disabled with the Castor patch. And lvl 5 agents haven't even received a SoonÖ statement.
Nevermind the high probability that it will take some fair amount of time for any TL2 blueprints to get a large enough distribution to begin affecting the TL1 equipment supply. After all, CU Vapors were still remarkably high priced until the M2 bps started seeing serious distribution. And CCP slowed that down right quickly.
We'll be flying Rifters, Stabbers, Ruptures, Mammoths, Typhoons and Tempests for some time. A rapid proliferation of TL2 equipment is exactly what CCP doesn't want. That just shortens the time before people start demanding TL3 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.30 03:02:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Quote:
Well, what is the point of being a researcher?
Requirements to create a blueprint copy:
Science lvl 1.
If that's being a researcher, I'd think it appropriate to call a toddler fingerpainting in preschool working on their Doctorate.
Jash, I am not talking about who can copy it, I am talking about who can make a tech 2 BP. That takes more than science lvl 1. What would the impact be to the researcher career path?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 03:14:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, what is the point of being a researcher?
Requirements to create a blueprint copy:
Science lvl 1.
If that's being a researcher, I'd think it appropriate to call a toddler fingerpainting in preschool working on their Doctorate.
Jash, I am not talking about who can copy it, I am talking about who can make a tech 2 BP. That takes more than science lvl 1. What would the impact be to the researcher career path?
Read the above post. And the same situation we're currently experiencing lay in copies for the TL2 blueprints. Skills here only require time to train. That's insignificant.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ris Dnalor
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Posted - 2003.11.30 03:31:00 -
[25]
well time isn't insignificant....
it takes 18 hours to make a BPC that earns you that 10m isk ... you can make 3 battleships in that time, & can make quite more than 10m isk in profit, I assure you. so the copying isn't some uber market-crashing exploit... rather copying is a way to earn much less isk than you could in the same amount of time by production.
on the other hand the regarding the limited introduction of tech 2 bp's, I suppose they learned nothing from the miner 2 test-run... A few ppl will gouge the market & get filthy rich...
I'm a former techell employee, & I can tell you they had assets in the many many billions b/c of the 2 miner 2 bluprints they purchased form other players... even at the cost of 1 billion each, they profited many many many many times over that... in fact for the first month they were profiting about 400m isk per day tralala
--
Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
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Zoltaris
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Posted - 2003.11.30 03:48:00 -
[26]
If there was a chance of losing the Original BP every time a copy is made out of it (something like 3 or 5%) things would be very different from what we are seing now...
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.11.30 04:07:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 30/11/2003 04:10:23
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 30/11/2003 04:07:55
Quote:
If there was a chance of losing the Original BP every time a copy is made out of it (something like 3 or 5%) things would be very different from what we are seing now...
Everytime you build with the BP it also has a chance (3 or 5 percent) of losing the BP? I am not for or against BPCs as currently in the game. I understand how unlimited BPCs were bad for the game and the Dev's corrected that. What is bad about the current BPCs? You have to own the original to make one. Why is it ok for one profession (manufacturing) to use BPs to make ISK and it is wrong for another (scientist)?
Almost forgot, the risk vs profit issue. Manufacturing characters do not ever have to leave the station. Minerals or ore can be brought to them and they just build. Scientist will have to do agent missions as part of the career path.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 04:58:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 30/11/2003 04:58:59
Quote:
well time isn't insignificant....
it takes 18 hours to make a BPC that earns you that 10m isk ... you can make 3 battleships in that time, & can make quite more than 10m isk in profit, I assure you. so the copying isn't some uber market-crashing exploit... rather copying is a way to earn much less isk than you could in the same amount of time by production.
I have 5 Scorpion blueprint copies in the corp hangar right now. I can produce and sell those bpcs faster than I can produce and sell the ships on the open market, for sum profit slightly less than what I can making the ships. And at a profit margin 10x that over the sale of a manufactured Scorpion (10% over production cost profit margin vs 100% profit margin given by 0 production cost of the bpc).
And Time IS Insignificant without having to aquire the minerals to produce. It takes all of 5 minutes to fly to the labs and pick up a blueprint copy, which has a greater chance of sale because of the lower cost and portability (that's an issue for another topic tho). Care to try to aquire the minerals for a Scorpion in 5 minutes? Since it takes about 16h per batch per copy vs 4hs to manufacture, I'll even quadruple that time.
Care to try to aquire the minerals for a single Scorpion in 20 minutes?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.30 05:07:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Almost forgot, the risk vs profit issue. Manufacturing characters do not ever have to leave the station. Minerals or ore can be brought to them and they just build. Scientist will have to do agent missions as part of the career path.
Manufacturers risk Time and Isk. The isk invested to manufacture every item. Changes in mineral prices reducing profit margin further extending recouping the isk invested in the blueprint original + the isk invested in manufacturing the item.
A manufacturer starts out in the hole the minute he buys a blueprint original and has to climb out. A process which, short of Techell freak flukes, can take months with the market in the current condition it's in because of things like blueprint licensing.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
nono
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Posted - 2003.11.30 07:50:00 -
[30]
Jash, I applaud your efforts in continuing to brings us very valid points and arguments to the continuos problems in EVE.
But please,,,, these are not some new revelations that you have come up with when you woke up and had your morning coffee. Everything you have brought to the boards from "Remove NPC demand for minerals to this latest "end yourself" thread about BP copies and everything inbetween lately was and has been discussed at length BEFORE release and in the following month of release.
I commend your efforts as well for blowing in the breeze in the hopes that your continued effort will somehow sway CCP. They didn't listen before, they arn't listening now and the way you continue to hammer these old issues that they have chosen to ignore or not change is pointless. I think the more you post the more they say "OMFG Jash is at it again" and do the exact opposite of whatever you think you are bringing to light just out of spite.
I think you have a fantastic style and enjoyed your posts for many a month but now your just another CALLAS that has a new topic every day or so. Maybe take a vacation or just plain tell CCP you quit. The lights may still be on, but frankly there's nobody home.
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