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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1811
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Posted - 2015.11.11 13:23:24 -
[31] - Quote
thats the thing, attributes dont force anyone to do anything, its player choice.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
206
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Posted - 2015.11.11 13:38:49 -
[32] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:thats the thing, attributes dont force anyone to do anything, its player choice.
But it isn't really, it's the mechanics that's effecting player choice.
After you reach the sweet spot, when you become more effective then you could say it's really more of a player's choice. But even then the choice is if you PvP then train slower, which is kind of a dumb choice really. Why should PvPers have to train slower than PvE players?
Players want to get up to speed, be a little more competitive, with attributes it forces new players into, avoiding losing attribute implants and having to spend time training with 2 attributes and for efficiency they are then stuck training with those 2 attributes.
Humans are generally geared towards efficiency and improvement, we don't generally tend to choose to do things in the most inefficient way possible.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1147
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Posted - 2015.11.11 16:35:51 -
[33] - Quote
It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk.
As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35059
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Posted - 2015.11.11 16:42:54 -
[34] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk.
As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part.
I'm quite certain that I'm going to lose my implant set at some point. It's not a risk, it's a certainty. It has happened before, it will happen again.
As for humans being wasteful, I thought this community prided itself on being smarter than the rest. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 23:07:35 -
[35] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk.
As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part.
Sounds like you don't know what my argument is.
PvP player in a war-zone in null with +5 fitted and a PvE player in high-sec. The PvE player can go for years, possibly their entire time they play the game without losing the implants, can the PvP player do this?
Of course not because if they could they would all be wearing +5s in null.
Some people say it's a choice, it's not a choice because the only option many have is to wear less than +5's because it would become expensive to keep replacing them. Whereas the PvE player in high-sec doesn't even really need to worry about it much.
So PvE players under the attribute system can train faster than PvP players. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case.
As for efficiency, it depends on what the goal is.
A man mowing the lawn takes a lot longer than is necessary, is he being inefficient? Quite possibly not, the mowing of the lawn maybe the secondary goal. The primary goal could be avoiding the wife for awhile. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1147
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 01:29:40 -
[36] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Sounds like you don't know what my argument is.
PvP player in a war-zone in null with +5 fitted and a PvE player in high-sec. The PvE player can go for years, possibly their entire time they play the game without losing the implants, can the PvP player do this?
Of course not because if they could they would all be wearing +5s in null.
Some people say it's a choice, it's not a choice because the only option many have is to wear less than +5's because it would become expensive to keep replacing them. Whereas the PvE player in high-sec doesn't even really need to worry about it much.
So PvE players under the attribute system can train faster than PvP players. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case.
I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster.
And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market.
How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on.
I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots? |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 02:45:28 -
[37] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote: I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster.
And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market.
How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on.
I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots?
Hardwiring is different in the fact that, you pay for a combat enhancement, so if you want that added advantage it's going to cost you. I don't think attribute removal would have any effect on hardwiring. Hardwiring isn't really a requirement, it just gives you an edge (you could say the same about attributes, but it is different). With hardwiring PvP and PvE are actually treated differently as in the fact one group doesn't gain an advantage over the other.
I understand peoples idea that attributes add something and they do to a degree, but there's to much negative impact towards the start of the game for it to be good for the game.
I wouldn't mind some decent insurance for my Dramiel. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 03:11:12 -
[38] - Quote
Avvy wrote: With hardwiring PvP and PvE are actually treated differently as in the fact one group doesn't gain an advantage over the other.
Quoting myself now.
Other than mining links for mining operations, I don't really see what use hardwiring is in PvE.
Certainly not for missions, although if I was doing missions and got one as a reward, I'd probably fit it.
Sure PvE players aren't likely to lose them, but then they're using them in a different way.
Not sure if that makes it clearer, but I'm about to drop of here, so going to hit the sack.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35075
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Posted - 2015.11.12 08:41:44 -
[39] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster.
And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market.
How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on.
I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots?
Using a +4 over a +5 deprives you of 777,600 SP over the course of a CCP year.
As for hardwirings, they improve the performance of your ship, attribute implants do not.
And yes, 40m is a big deal for PvP pilots, remember when clone upgrades got removed with that exact reasoning? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 09:52:52 -
[40] - Quote
attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2015.11.12 10:08:39 -
[41] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants
Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it.
If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 10:39:50 -
[42] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.
its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument.
whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod?
If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2015.11.12 10:49:12 -
[43] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make.
What choice?
You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's.
I guess, they could choose to not PvP.
Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35078
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 10:50:25 -
[44] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants
The attributes on those are an afterthought, don't tell me that you use Slaves because they have attributes on them. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose is disproportionate in the case of attribute implants, since a pirate implant set costs more than 2 +5 implants, but you're gettinng punished for using it. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 11:01:42 -
[45] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. What choice? You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's. I guess, they could choose to not PvP. Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game.
everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die.
I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
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Posted - 2015.11.12 11:07:10 -
[46] - Quote
however i will add for pve, people in nullsec and low are also losing out, we fit our ships with t2 mods for pve yet highsec can fly multi-billion isk ships, so can we balance something because im losing out on that extra tank and dps because i choose to pvp in nullsec and want to keep my losses to a minimum because i know ill lose my ship sometime
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2015.11.12 11:10:30 -
[47] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. What choice? You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's. I guess, they could choose to not PvP. Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game. everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die. I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs
If you want optimal training then you have no choice but to not PvP.
With the amount of sp you have, training speed won't matter to you as much anyway.
Cost is always an argument, because cost dictates what choices are available to you. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
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Posted - 2015.11.12 11:40:12 -
[48] - Quote
nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2015.11.12 11:42:01 -
[49] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice
Cost stops you.
If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1813
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Posted - 2015.11.12 11:59:51 -
[50] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Cost stops you. If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk.
cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2015.11.12 12:02:20 -
[51] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Cost stops you. If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk. cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can.
You've missed the point.
I'd suggest at this point to take another look at the thread |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35078
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Posted - 2015.11.12 12:43:59 -
[52] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice
Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that.
Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1815
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Posted - 2015.11.12 13:02:27 -
[53] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that. Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you. Especially since you're attempting to strawman the arguement by pointing out... PvE ship fits in null.
its been explained already why clone upgrades done nothing for the game, stop feeling so entitled that you are losing something because you engage in pvp and feel you dont have any choices when clearly you do.
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35079
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Posted - 2015.11.12 13:30:51 -
[54] - Quote
Yes, I'm entitled, risk-averse, yadda yadda. Any other buzzwords you got to throw at me? |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1147
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Posted - 2015.11.12 16:08:46 -
[55] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Using a +4 over a +5 deprives you of 777,600 SP over the course of a CCP year.
As for hardwirings, they improve the performance of your ship, attribute implants do not.
And yes, 40m is a big deal for PvP pilots, remember when clone upgrades got removed with that exact reasoning?
Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.) Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5499
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 05:10:25 -
[56] - Quote
Leaving aside all the off-topic whining from people that want to reduce the risk of careless play, and getting back to advice.
The correct answer is to use +5s if and only if you can afford to comfortably replace them, and to price the risk of pod loss into your decision to plug in +5s. This risk is low but non-zero in empire, and high in WH/0.0. Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space, but anyone that considers their play to be perfect is lying to themselves, and lying to yourself is the first step to getting an expensive lossmail.
If you aren't able to justify plugging in 450-500m of implants once every X months (where X is your best judgement as to how rare a pod loss will be) - do not do it. Plug in +3s instead, they are cheap and disposable.
Personally I have a +5 clone, a +4 Int +4 Mem clone with implants that benefit small armor ships (Taranis/Enyo/Ishkur/Catalyst), and a +4 Will + 4 Perc clone with implants that benefit medium armor ships (Ishtar/Vexor/Vexor Navy).
I'm considering adding a clone with all +4s and a Rattlesnake/Golem focus as well, which may end up being HG Crystals. Haven't pulled that trigger yet.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3628
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Posted - 2015.11.13 20:24:14 -
[57] - Quote
Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods.
I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1820
|
Posted - 2015.11.14 00:02:51 -
[58] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods.
I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time.
risking pods is for real men, probably becuase you have more logi than you can shake a stick at
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
35176
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Posted - 2015.11.14 11:29:37 -
[59] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.) Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing.
So, I'm paying the same money as someone else but he trains faster because ??? Skill points are an unique resource in EVE online that's directly tied to your sub time, not to anything else, like other ingame resourcess.
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space
No. There are ships that can lock your pod in <1sec, and consequently, due to how server ticks work prevent it from warping. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.11.14 17:51:07 -
[60] - Quote
It does come down to risk and reward, you're not entitled to that extra training speed if you go out with a bling pod expect to lose it on the undock. People have suggested some nice alternatives, in particular rolling with 2 +4 implants which are easily affordable and replaceable and having a skill que online clone docked up somewhere.
Use the starmap, look for pod killing in lowsec systems. Avoid those systems or have it scouted, EVE is a sandbox. Don't risk what you can't afford to lose, I lost a +5 pod, deal with it I replaced it 20 mins later because I left knowing it was a possibility. Get in the right mindset and win EVE. |
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