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Silver Dagger Kondur Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2015.11.05 22:36:29 - [1] - Quote Greets! Say one wants to PVP But Say one also wants to train skills a little more rapidly. So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc. but PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3. So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days.
Aeniec Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics Hedonistic Imperative 8	Posted - 2015.11.05 22:48:33 - [2] - Quote +4s are only like 80 mil for implants 1-4.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1140	Posted - 2015.11.06 05:03:04 - [3] - Quote I would generally buy just the two +4 implants I am currently training. If I ever lose a pod with more than two, it means I haven't got caught in a LONG time. Then keep a +5 guy that you jump to when the fighting is over. Train the info-morph skills so you can jump in less than 24 hours and jump back every other day. Never fly less than +3s. They are so cheap.
Cidanel Afuran Static-Noise Upholders 399	Posted - 2015.11.06 20:35:40 - [4] - Quote If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod
Sheeth Athonille Rabid Dogz Mining Void.. 46	Posted - 2015.11.07 00:14:55 - [5] - Quote Yeah stay out of null and it's usually pretty safe to run +4's or +5's (start aligning and spamming warp as you're about to lose your ship). If I'm in a wh or null then I'll usually use +3's since they are so cheap.
Silver Dagger Kondur Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2015.11.07 00:34:21 - [6] - Quote Thanks, everyone for the answers!
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34934	Posted - 2015.11.08 06:15:30 - [7] - Quote Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. Why do bad threads happen to good people?
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 240	Posted - 2015.11.08 07:15:50 - [8] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34934	Posted - 2015.11.08 08:05:37 - [9] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either. Why do bad threads happen to good people?
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 241	Posted - 2015.11.08 21:30:19 - [10] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either. you dont lose sp. losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp. Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's

Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34940	Posted - 2015.11.09 11:11:57 - [11] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. Well, I either pay for implants or lose SP by not having them. Not really a choice either. you dont lose sp. losing sp is going from hac 5 to hac 4. from 35 million sp to 34.5 million sp. Edit: if you are going to believe you are losing sp by not using implants than its 200 mil you are risking not 40 cause under your train of thought you need +5's all the time. not +4's If I spend a CCP year in a +4 clone vs spend a CCP year in a +5 clone, I would have 1,555,200 SP less. And your edit makes the problem even more evident. Axe attribute implants, they're just bad gameplay. Why do bad threads happen to good people?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 535	Posted - 2015.11.09 12:47:22 - [12] - Quote It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34943	Posted - 2015.11.09 12:52:53 - [13] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s. None of the above. Not running attribute implants is about as much of a choice as not upgrading your clone was. Every arguement that could be made against the clone upgrade system can be made against attribute implants, word for word. Why do bad threads happen to good people?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 535	Posted - 2015.11.09 13:10:55 - [14] - Quote Reward: More SP/Faster training Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants. In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter. Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed. Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1808	Posted - 2015.11.09 13:41:18 - [15] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34947	Posted - 2015.11.09 13:42:51 - [16] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Reward: More SP/Faster training Risk: Getting podded and losing the implants. In some areas of space you are more likely to get podded thus the risk is increased. You have to make a choice if the reward you get is worth the increased risk. You can even decided on the amount of isk you want to risk and that dictates the amount of reward you get. There is choice, there is weighing of risk vs reward. With the SP loss for not upgrading your pod there was no reward, just risk. "Not losing SP" is not a reward so not upgrading your pod was simply an isk sink. You either kept your pod upgraded or you forgot to upgrade your pod, there was no choice in the matter. Even looking at the choice between +5s and +3 Ascendencies. With the ascendancies I warp faster, thus I can make more isk, but the price i pay for it is slower SP progression over running +5s. Again, choice, depth. If I have a lot of free time I don't have to worry about isk as I can just run more missions, that way I can get maximum SP. If I have less time available I want to maximise my isk potential at the cost of training speed. Before someone makes the argument based on training skills, that also was never about choice. You either trained learning skills or you were at a disadvantage for absolutely no reward. Extreme case: if you do not plug in any training implants you lose about 1/4 of the SP training over the year. Your example with the higher ISK efficiency with the ascendancies is a very bad one, since SP is time based, and if you do not get the maximum now, you're never ever getting it back. On the other hand, you have a myriad of ways to make ISK for yourself, some more effective, others not. So, to summarise, it's mechanically better to have two +5 implants for your current remap than it is to have an Ascendancy set. Lan Wang wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. why should you risk a 40mil pod? isnt that your choice? you have jumpclones if you are scared to lose a 40mil pod, try losing a slave set in a frigate That's the whole point, it's not a choice.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1142	Posted - 2015.11.09 15:59:03 - [17] - Quote The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option"
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34960	Posted - 2015.11.09 16:55:25 - [18] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option" Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants.
Sheeth Athonille Rabid Dogz Mining Void.. 50	Posted - 2015.11.09 22:42:25 - [19] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: RavenPaine wrote: The game gives every player a base training speed. It's equal across the board for every paid subscription. Then the game gives you options to increase that speed. Each player gets to make his own decision on those options, and decide for himself how important the risk vs reward is. This option is also equal across the board for every paid subscription. Fast training time is not an entitlement, nor is it mandatory to play EVE. But it is an "option" Training skills were optional too and they got removed. There's really no good arguement for keeping attribute implants. Correction, there are plenty of good arguments for keeping attribute implants, just none that you will agree with. Everything everyone else has said is valid, you just don't accept the for whatever reason. That's fine, but don't claim there are no good reasons.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 538	Posted - 2015.11.10 06:15:01 - [20] - Quote People eventually run out of things to train that they want, need or even can use. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier

Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 307	Posted - 2015.11.10 06:36:12 - [21] - Quote Silver Dagger Kondur wrote: So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc. but PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3. So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days. Use Pirate implants? High Grades function as +4s, mids as +3 along with sweet, sweet bonuses to some aspect of your ship. Snakes, in particular, are popular for a reason. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34977	Posted - 2015.11.10 09:50:19 - [22] - Quote Sheeth Athonille wrote: Correction, there are plenty of good arguments for keeping attribute implants, just none that you will agree with. Everything everyone else has said is valid, you just don't accept the for whatever reason. That's fine, but don't claim there are no good reasons. Then make those good arguements. Historically, we have a precedent of removed learning skills and then clone upgrades for the same reasons that I attirbute implants should be removed. There really is no good arguement to keep them. Anize Oramara wrote: People eventually run out of things to train that they want, need or even can use. You're citing endgame. People get hurt the most by no/low-qualtiy implants during their first 6-12 months, which are critical. Not to mention that the community at large tells them to remap PER=INT and not to use their remaps because they'll need them later...
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 204	Posted - 2015.11.10 16:10:21 - [23] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s. It adds risk, it doesn't add much depth. It also means that those in high-sec can train quicker than those that PvP a lot. Why should that be the case? What needs to happen is the removal of attributes and in doing so the removal of attribute implants with an increase in the standard rate of training to compensate for their removal.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1809	Posted - 2015.11.10 16:44:48 - [24] - Quote implants = training times, great at training a char for pve things but lack any sort of pvp skill because he doesnt want to lose his shiney pod no implants = great at pvp and can fly what he needs and doesnt care about training speed, because who cares about sp when your having fun blowing stuff up Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34980	Posted - 2015.11.10 17:07:19 - [25] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: implants = training times, great at training a char for pve things but lack any sort of pvp skill because he doesnt want to lose his shiney pod no implants = great at pvp and can fly what he needs and doesnt care about training speed, because who cares about sp when your having fun blowing stuff up Protip, a mid-grade Snake set costs more than a +5 learning implant one. You just ousted yourself as being clueless. Moreover, your post was uncalled for, but I guess you can't help but feel attacked because people like to not lose 1/4 of their possible SP, which directly limits what you can fly. Whether you're a pretentious **** or a salty malcontent, I can't say.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1144	Posted - 2015.11.10 18:55:18 - [26] - Quote There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable. I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also. The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking. Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 34993	Posted - 2015.11.10 21:48:13 - [27] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable. I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also. The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking. Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity. Er. That's not what I'm saying at all. I mean, when I went into FW I had frig skill at 3, 200k SP in Navigation, barely able to use T2 guns with gunnery supports at 3/4, etc. etc. but I was still able to kill people in fights. The SP entry level that you can be doing things alone is very low, you just have to find what those things are. If you're in a corp/alliance, you can get going on Day 1. That's not what the arguement is about and it does not change the fact that you lose SP by not having implants.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1145	Posted - 2015.11.11 02:03:51 - [28] - Quote You are not LOSEING skill points, by flying with no implants. You are CHOOSING to train at base speed with less risk of loss. You could choose to not use hardwiring too, but you would lose ROF, power grid, speed or some other benefit. You could chose not to use boosters but if your opponent uses them, he will have an advantage. You could choose to use T1 ammo, but.... etc. etc. Nobody HAS to use implants. It's a choice they make. Doing away with them limits a players choices, but more important, it limits his ability to progress at a faster rate. For me, I have been in thousands of fights. I lost some nice implants, and even some skill points when I forgot to upgrade a clone once. Most times, the loss was actually due to a small (or big) mistake that was MY FAULT. I know the pain well of lost implants. But I still plug them in because SP is a fun part of the game for me. I'll always want the option.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35043	Posted - 2015.11.11 09:44:24 - [29] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: You are not LOSEING skill points, by flying with no implants. Yes, you are. After an year you'll have demonstrably less SP than someone who has used implants. RavenPaine wrote: Nobody HAS to use implants. It's a choice they make. Doing away with them limits a players choices, but more important, it limits his ability to progress at a faster rate. But I still plug them in because SP is a fun part of the game for me. Nobody choses to train slower. Not even you. Doing away with implants won't limit people's ability to progress faster. It's already limited to 2700 SP/hour as it is. It'll merely bring up the floor. Besides, it will open up new choices for people since they don't have to pick between SP and using a pirate implant set, for example. Oh, and by the way, when skill packets hit the market, not using +5 implants will be a direct ISK loss.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 206	Posted - 2015.11.11 10:17:23 - [30] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: There is an ongoing complaint that newbs can NEVER catch up to veteran players. Implants give players an option to close the gap, or catch up, or even pass a player that is catchable. I'm an advocate that SP does not = fun, so that whole theory of "need more SP to have fun" is something I disagree with. BUT: I do like the possibility that I can train faster when I want to. And I suspect that most players will like it also. The alternative means that , subscription member #1,394,123 will always be ranked as the 1,394,123rd best player in the game. He would have no chance to improve his ranking. Implants should be a selling point imo. A tool to improve your character is always a popular gaming commodity. Newbs don't need to catch up as such. Sometime ago 50 million was deemed to be the point at which you would be more effective (I'm sure that's not how they worded it). But anyway, I'll call 50 million sp the sweet spot. Most below that sweet spot will consider it important to train as fast as possible to reach that sweet spot. After you get to that point it's not so important. Which is why I think a lot of vets don't see it as been that important, because they passed that sweet spot ages ago. Attributes really do need to go, because they force new players into training in one direction based on which attributes they have set as priority. Also attribute implants being expensive to new players mean they're reluctant to want to lose them or the training speed they offer. The problem with attributes and attribute implants is that all the negative aspects of them effect more those that are below that sweet spot. In short attributes and attribute implants are not good for this game.

Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1811	Posted - 2015.11.11 13:23:24 - [31] - Quote thats the thing, attributes dont force anyone to do anything, its player choice. Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 206	Posted - 2015.11.11 13:38:49 - [32] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: thats the thing, attributes dont force anyone to do anything, its player choice. But it isn't really, it's the mechanics that's effecting player choice. After you reach the sweet spot, when you become more effective then you could say it's really more of a player's choice. But even then the choice is if you PvP then train slower, which is kind of a dumb choice really. Why should PvPers have to train slower than PvE players? Players want to get up to speed, be a little more competitive, with attributes it forces new players into, avoiding losing attribute implants and having to spend time training with 2 attributes and for efficiency they are then stuck training with those 2 attributes. Humans are generally geared towards efficiency and improvement, we don't generally tend to choose to do things in the most inefficient way possible.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1147	Posted - 2015.11.11 16:35:51 - [33] - Quote It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk. As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35059	Posted - 2015.11.11 16:42:54 - [34] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk. As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part. I'm quite certain that I'm going to lose my implant set at some point. It's not a risk, it's a certainty. It has happened before, it will happen again. As for humans being wasteful, I thought this community prided itself on being smarter than the rest.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 206	Posted - 2015.11.11 23:07:35 - [35] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: It sounds like the crux of your thinking, is that PvP'rs feel like they deserve a more risk free game. Or that maybe they are more important than the player who pays his subscription to mine and manufacture. These same PvP pilots are the guys that want big kill mails and blow up everything they see. So I can't feel the part where they deserve less risk. As for human efficiency... Humans are about the most wasteful, inefficient species on the planet. We waste money, food, transportation, electricity, housing, natural resources and man made resources alike. A plague to our own planet for the most part. Sounds like you don't know what my argument is. PvP player in a war-zone in null with +5 fitted and a PvE player in high-sec. The PvE player can go for years, possibly their entire time they play the game without losing the implants, can the PvP player do this? Of course not because if they could they would all be wearing +5s in null. Some people say it's a choice, it's not a choice because the only option many have is to wear less than +5's because it would become expensive to keep replacing them. Whereas the PvE player in high-sec doesn't even really need to worry about it much. So PvE players under the attribute system can train faster than PvP players. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case. As for efficiency, it depends on what the goal is. A man mowing the lawn takes a lot longer than is necessary, is he being inefficient? Quite possibly not, the mowing of the lawn maybe the secondary goal. The primary goal could be avoiding the wife for awhile.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1147	Posted - 2015.11.12 01:29:40 - [36] - Quote Avvy wrote: Sounds like you don't know what my argument is. PvP player in a war-zone in null with +5 fitted and a PvE player in high-sec. The PvE player can go for years, possibly their entire time they play the game without losing the implants, can the PvP player do this? Of course not because if they could they would all be wearing +5s in null. Some people say it's a choice, it's not a choice because the only option many have is to wear less than +5's because it would become expensive to keep replacing them. Whereas the PvE player in high-sec doesn't even really need to worry about it much. So PvE players under the attribute system can train faster than PvP players. I'm saying that shouldn't be the case. I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster. And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market. How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on. I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots?
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 206	Posted - 2015.11.12 02:45:28 - [37] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster. And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market. How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on. I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots? Hardwiring is different in the fact that, you pay for a combat enhancement, so if you want that added advantage it's going to cost you. I don't think attribute removal would have any effect on hardwiring. Hardwiring isn't really a requirement, it just gives you an edge (you could say the same about attributes, but it is different). With hardwiring PvP and PvE are actually treated differently as in the fact one group doesn't gain an advantage over the other. I understand peoples idea that attributes add something and they do to a degree, but there's to much negative impact towards the start of the game for it to be good for the game. I wouldn't mind some decent insurance for my Dramiel.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 206	Posted - 2015.11.12 03:11:12 - [38] - Quote Avvy wrote: With hardwiring PvP and PvE are actually treated differently as in the fact one group doesn't gain an advantage over the other. Quoting myself now. Other than mining links for mining operations, I don't really see what use hardwiring is in PvE. Certainly not for missions, although if I was doing missions and got one as a reward, I'd probably fit it. Sure PvE players aren't likely to lose them, but then they're using them in a different way. Not sure if that makes it clearer, but I'm about to drop of here, so going to hit the sack.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35075	Posted - 2015.11.12 08:41:44 - [39] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: I understand your point, and your last post makes it very clear. Good post. What I don't agree with, is doing away with the option to train faster. And I'd make a couple side points. PvP'rs lose hardwiring too. Miners do not. I mean, your argument seems like it would naturally evolve to hardwiring at some point. And I think CCP likes the fact that exploded stuff is gone from the market. How about a different kind of clone insurance? The kind that covers implant and hardwire losses? Or how about 'degrading' the implants? lose a pod, drop 1 point of the modifier. +5's become +4's, then +3's, and so on. I'd also add, the difference between 4's and 5's is not very huge in sp per hour.. You train at 2610, or 2700. The cost difference is sizable, so 4's is the logical choice for a good pilot. 1 plex should cover 20 sets if you only plug in the primary and secondary for your current skill. 40 million a pop for that loss. Is that really an issue with pvp pilots? Using a +4 over a +5 deprives you of 777,600 SP over the course of a CCP year. As for hardwirings, they improve the performance of your ship, attribute implants do not. And yes, 40m is a big deal for PvP pilots, remember when clone upgrades got removed with that exact reasoning?
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 09:52:52 - [40] - Quote attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|

Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 207	Posted - 2015.11.12 10:08:39 - [41] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 10:39:50 - [42] - Quote Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 207	Posted - 2015.11.12 10:49:12 - [43] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. What choice? You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's. I guess, they could choose to not PvP. Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35078	Posted - 2015.11.12 10:50:25 - [44] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants The attributes on those are an afterthought, don't tell me that you use Slaves because they have attributes on them. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose is disproportionate in the case of attribute implants, since a pirate implant set costs more than 2 +5 implants, but you're gettinng punished for using it.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:01:42 - [45] - Quote Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. What choice? You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's. I guess, they could choose to not PvP. Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game. everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die. I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:07:10 - [46] - Quote however i will add for pve, people in nullsec and low are also losing out, we fit our ships with t2 mods for pve yet highsec can fly multi-billion isk ships, so can we balance something because im losing out on that extra tank and dps because i choose to pvp in nullsec and want to keep my losses to a minimum because i know ill lose my ship sometime Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 207	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:10:30 - [47] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: attribute implants dont affect ship performance? hmmm so slaves, snakes, halos etc do nothing? again implants are a choice just like everything in the game, "dont fly what you cant afford to lose" also applies to implants Lan, that's a non-argument and you know it. If the attributes parts of those implants were removed they would still have a function. its not really a non-argument, attribute implants dont need removed because they are a player choice and saying that they should be removed because some people dont get the benefit because they pvp is a non-argument. whats the difference between an implant that enhances the character training speed to a purple ship mod which gives you a 2.5% extra advantage over a blue mod? If you aint prepared to lose something you have fitted to your char or your ship then dont fit it, you lose the benefit but thats the choice you make. What choice? You PvP, you get podded you lose your implants. Most people can't afford to keep PvPing in +5's, they don't have a choice they have to use +3's and +4's. I guess, they could choose to not PvP. Plus I've already covered in this thread why attributes are not good for this game. everyone has a choice... fit implants or dont fit implants its simple just like the choice of fitting that pith x-type over a t2, ive also been in corps which require you to fit atleast midgrade pirate implants for pvp, nobody forces anything to you in the game and if you want to play the game as skillques online then thats also your choice, if you want to maximise you sp/hr then thats also your choice, if you want to pvp and minimise your losses then thats your choice, cost shouldnt be an argument to remove a load of things from the game and neither should the fact that people prefer to maximise their skill training over people who prefer to die. I fail to see any punishment in attribute implants, you chose to fight and fighting has costs If you want optimal training then you have no choice but to not PvP. With the amount of sp you have, training speed won't matter to you as much anyway. Cost is always an argument, because cost dictates what choices are available to you.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:40:12 - [48] - Quote nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 207	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:42:01 - [49] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Cost stops you. If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1813	Posted - 2015.11.12 11:59:51 - [50] - Quote Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Cost stops you. If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk. cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can. Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|

Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 207	Posted - 2015.11.12 12:02:20 - [51] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Avvy wrote: Lan Wang wrote: nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Cost stops you. If you have unlimited amounts of isk, you could do that. But most won't have unlimited amounts of isk. cost doesn't mean something should be removed because some people cant afford it and others can. You've missed the point. I'd suggest at this point to take another look at the thread
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35078	Posted - 2015.11.12 12:43:59 - [52] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that. Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1815	Posted - 2015.11.12 13:02:27 - [53] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Lan Wang wrote: nothing stops you from fitting +5's and doing pvp so i dont see where you get you that you dont have a choice Bring back clone upgrades then, I'm sure people will rejoice at that. Also, opportunity cost of losing SP, but at this point I've pretty much given up on you. Especially since you're attempting to strawman the arguement by pointing out... PvE ship fits in null. its been explained already why clone upgrades done nothing for the game, stop feeling so entitled that you are losing something because you engage in pvp and feel you dont have any choices when clearly you do. Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35079	Posted - 2015.11.12 13:30:51 - [54] - Quote Yes, I'm entitled, risk-averse, yadda yadda. Any other buzzwords you got to throw at me?
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1147	Posted - 2015.11.12 16:08:46 - [55] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Using a +4 over a +5 deprives you of 777,600 SP over the course of a CCP year. As for hardwirings, they improve the performance of your ship, attribute implants do not. And yes, 40m is a big deal for PvP pilots, remember when clone upgrades got removed with that exact reasoning? Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.) Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing.
Sabriz Adoudel Black Hydra Consortium. 5499	Posted - 2015.11.13 05:10:25 - [56] - Quote Leaving aside all the off-topic whining from people that want to reduce the risk of careless play, and getting back to advice. The correct answer is to use +5s if and only if you can afford to comfortably replace them, and to price the risk of pod loss into your decision to plug in +5s. This risk is low but non-zero in empire, and high in WH/0.0. Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space, but anyone that considers their play to be perfect is lying to themselves, and lying to yourself is the first step to getting an expensive lossmail. If you aren't able to justify plugging in 450-500m of implants once every X months (where X is your best judgement as to how rare a pod loss will be) - do not do it. Plug in +3s instead, they are cheap and disposable. Personally I have a +5 clone, a +4 Int +4 Mem clone with implants that benefit small armor ships (Taranis/Enyo/Ishkur/Catalyst), and a +4 Will + 4 Perc clone with implants that benefit medium armor ships (Ishtar/Vexor/Vexor Navy). I'm considering adding a clone with all +4s and a Rattlesnake/Golem focus as well, which may end up being HG Crystals. Haven't pulled that trigger yet. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3628	Posted - 2015.11.13 20:24:14 - [57] - Quote Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods. I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1820	Posted - 2015.11.14 00:02:51 - [58] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Do pvp in an.environment where you don't lose pods. I've been doing nothing but PVP for 5 years and never lost a pod in that time. risking pods is for real men, probably becuase you have more logi than you can shake a stick at Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35176	Posted - 2015.11.14 11:29:37 - [59] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: Clone upgrades got removed because they were a bad business model. If you lost a months worth of training, that was a month that you had actually PAID REAL MONEY for. It was a questionable mechanic, both ethically and legally. It cost you to insure, and it cost you not to insure. The player got zero benefit from either option. The clone 'tax' actually got higher and higher the longer you played. (Which is not how most business's treat their long time customers.) Clone insurance cost was just the tip of the iceberg on that whole thing. So, I'm paying the same money as someone else but he trains faster because ??? Skill points are an unique resource in EVE online that's directly tied to your sub time, not to anything else, like other ingame resourcess. Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Perfect play allows you to always escape with your pod from any weapon that requires a target lock in empire space No. There are ships that can lock your pod in <1sec, and consequently, due to how server ticks work prevent it from warping.
Jadon Wallace School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 13	Posted - 2015.11.14 17:51:07 - [60] - Quote It does come down to risk and reward, you're not entitled to that extra training speed if you go out with a bling pod expect to lose it on the undock. People have suggested some nice alternatives, in particular rolling with 2 +4 implants which are easily affordable and replaceable and having a skill que online clone docked up somewhere. Use the starmap, look for pod killing in lowsec systems. Avoid those systems or have it scouted, EVE is a sandbox. Don't risk what you can't afford to lose, I lost a +5 pod, deal with it I replaced it 20 mins later because I left knowing it was a possibility. Get in the right mindset and win EVE.

RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1155	Posted - 2015.11.14 17:54:43 - [61] - Quote Your own comment "Nothing is safe" You're right about that. And the fact is, that instalocks can happen in low, null, or hi-sec equally across the universe. You keep implying that null is more dangerous, but that's just not true. CODE, mission griefers, high value ganks, high sec wars, faction wars. These things happen every day. Your other comment "he trains faster because???" He trains faster because he chooses to risk his implants, so he CAN train faster. He might choose to mine for a month so he can get some ISK together for the next campaign or he might choose to build ships for a month so his corp can have cheap ships. He might have gotten his implants from an LP store for doing 9785 missions. He might be a damn good pilot in a damn good crew of PvP pilots. But whatever the case, those implants are at risk every time he undocks. Thousands of players join EVE so they can mine or haul or market or whatever at their own leisure. It may not be adrenaline they look for, it may be just the opposite, after a long day of real life. Changing the game so that you can go fly suicide fights on an hourly basis, with no consequence, is what you're asking. It would benefit PvP pilots and hurt the more passive players. Having a fixed rate of training would impact newbs the most. Having the option to train faster or slower is a GREAT mechanic.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35242	Posted - 2015.11.15 10:30:43 - [62] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: Your own comment "Nothing is safe" You're right about that. And the fact is, that instalocks can happen in low, null, or hi-sec equally across the universe. You keep implying that null is more dangerous, but that's just not true. CODE, mission griefers, high value ganks, high sec wars, faction wars. These things happen every day. Your other comment "he trains faster because???" He trains faster because he chooses to risk his implants, so he CAN train faster. He might choose to mine for a month so he can get some ISK together for the next campaign or he might choose to build ships for a month so his corp can have cheap ships. He might have gotten his implants from an LP store for doing 9785 missions. He might be a damn good pilot in a damn good crew of PvP pilots. But whatever the case, those implants are at risk every time he undocks. Thousands of players join EVE so they can mine or haul or market or whatever at their own leisure. It may not be adrenaline they look for, it may be just the opposite, after a long day of real life. Changing the game so that you can go fly suicide fights on an hourly basis, with no consequence, is what you're asking. It would benefit PvP pilots and hurt the more passive players. Having a fixed rate of training would impact newbs the most. Having the option to train faster or slower is a GREAT mechanic. I beg to differ. Having a option to train slower is not an option. It'd always be an inferior choice. Axing attribute implants would affect newbies the most, true, but the people that sit in +5 clones would just train at the same speed. What could be the possible problem with that? The current SP bloat is bad enough and it's only getting worse. Jadon Wallace wrote: Use the starmap, look for pod killing in lowsec systems. Avoid those systems or have it scouted, EVE is a sandbox. Don't risk what you can't afford to lose, I lost a +5 pod, deal with it I replaced it 20 mins later because I left knowing it was a possibility. Get in the right mindset and win EVE. I got a pod smartbombed in Tama once. My bad. But when every random ganglinked Svipul can deprive you of your pod's contents, that's just boring. As for winning EVE, the only right move is not to play.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1821	Posted - 2015.11.15 10:52:30 - [63] - Quote I dont think you get it... Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35244	Posted - 2015.11.15 14:56:26 - [64] - Quote No, I get it very well. I don't think you get it. See, I can play the adjective game too.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1156	Posted - 2015.11.15 18:11:38 - [65] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: I beg to differ. Having a option to train slower is not an option. Training skills were optional too, but not having them would always be an inferior choice, same as implants. You gain nothing by using a blank clone vs training implants, you only lose SP. Axing attribute implants would affect newbies the most, true, but the people that sit in +5 clones would just train at the same speed. What could be the possible problem with that? The current SP bloat is bad enough and it's only getting worse. With Training skills (learning skills) the total SP to max them was 5,120,000 SP (If I recall). The time period to get full benefit from that was 2years and some odd months. It was labeled as the 'pay back point' or 'break even point' for time spent training those skills. If you didn't train those skills, you would have the equivalent SP in other categories in your first 2.4 years. Those skills also gave a player options. Instant gratification or long term planning. To say you gain nothing by using a blank clone is false. What you gain, is a risk free clone. You can suicide that guy as fast as you can undock. You can suck up the enemy DPS like a sponge, and have zero ISK at risk. The main 2 problems are: 1-Your idea would affect newbs adversely. Since new subscriptions are very important, that's just a bad scenario. The #1 complaint I see from them, is the skill point wall/catch up barrier. 2-It's a given that everyone can train/fight/die in +3's. (please tell me you're not hurt by the cost of +3's?) So what your real concept revolves around, is +4's or +5's. This is the part where players have an option to risk ISK for a slightly faster train time. The game gives every player an opportunity to make ISK. They get to choose how they want to do that, and can even buy ISK through PLEX system. I LIKE the option to train faster! I can afford to risk the implants, IF I choose my fights. If I miscalculate, I lose them. I WANT my enemy to have the same risk of loss. My one example would be: If you ever played online poker, you know that the fake money sites, the players don't really play the same, because they have nothing to lose. They tilt, implode, suicide. But the REAL MONEY sites, those players play differently. They play better, more consistent, more skill. The risk of a real loss makes for a better game.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35282	Posted - 2015.11.15 19:18:02 - [66] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: With Training skills (learning skills) the total SP to max them was 5,120,000 SP (If I recall). The time period to get full benefit from that was 2years and some odd months. It was labeled as the 'pay back point' or 'break even point' for time spent training those skills. If you didn't train those skills, you would have the equivalent SP in other categories in your first 2.4 years. Those skills also gave a player options. Instant gratification or long term planning. Last time I looked into it average account age was less than a year. Let's be realistic here, those skills would've never paid out for most people. RavenPaine wrote: To say you gain nothing by using a blank clone is false. What you gain, is a risk free clone. You can suicide that guy as fast as you can undock. You can suck up the enemy DPS like a sponge, and have zero ISK at risk. You still lose your ship though. Let's put it in other terms, 40m ISK is more than the difference between flying a T1 frigate and a T1 cruiers. RavenPaine wrote: The main 2 problems are: 1-Your idea would affect newbs adversely. Since new subscriptions are very important, that's just a bad scenario. The #1 complaint I see from them, is the skill point wall/catch up barrier. Why would training faster affect new players adversely? Unless you're implying that at some point I'll have more SP than people that started playing 10 years before I did. That's not going to happen. RavenPaine wrote: 2-It's a given that everyone can train/fight/die in +3's. (please tell me you're not hurt by the cost of +3's?) So what your real concept revolves around, is +4's or +5's. This is the part where players have an option to risk ISK for a slightly faster train time. The game gives every player an opportunity to make ISK. They get to choose how they want to do that, and can even buy ISK through PLEX system. I LIKE the option to train faster! I can afford to risk the implants, IF I choose my fights. If I miscalculate, I lose them. I WANT my enemy to have the same risk of loss. Your option to train faster comes at the expense of other people having the option to train slower being forced one them. Even if attribute implants disappeared this very instant I'd still be able to buy ships and go out to lose them. As for losing shiny pods, hardwirings and pirate implants exist. People lose billion pods every day. There's still risk involved in that, and it hurts more ISK wise than losing two training implants. RavenPaine wrote: My one example would be: If you ever played online poker, you know that the fake money sites, the players don't really play the same, because they have nothing to lose. They tilt, implode, suicide. But the REAL MONEY sites, those players play differently. They play better, more consistent, more skill. The risk of a real loss makes for a better game. EVE is a game. Nothing is a real loss. How motivated you are comes down to how motivated you are in general. Most people aren't very motivated.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1158	Posted - 2015.11.15 22:31:43 - [67] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: RavenPaine wrote: To say you gain nothing by using a blank clone is false. What you gain, is a risk free clone. You can suicide that guy as fast as you can undock. You can suck up the enemy DPS like a sponge, and have zero ISK at risk. You still lose your ship though. Let's put it in other terms, 40m ISK is more than the difference between flying a T1 frigate and a T1 cruiers. RavenPaine wrote: The main 2 problems are: 1-Your idea would affect newbs adversely. Since new subscriptions are very important, that's just a bad scenario. The #1 complaint I see from them, is the skill point wall/catch up barrier. Why would training faster affect new players adversely? Unless you're implying that at some point I'll have more SP than people that started playing 10 years before I did. That's not going to happen. RavenPaine wrote: 2-It's a given that everyone can train/fight/die in +3's. (please tell me you're not hurt by the cost of +3's?) So what your real concept revolves around, is +4's or +5's. This is the part where players have an option to risk ISK for a slightly faster train time. The game gives every player an opportunity to make ISK. They get to choose how they want to do that, and can even buy ISK through PLEX system. I LIKE the option to train faster! I can afford to risk the implants, IF I choose my fights. If I miscalculate, I lose them. I WANT my enemy to have the same risk of loss. Your option to train faster comes at the expense of other people having the option to train slower being forced one them. Even if attribute implants disappeared this very instant I'd still be able to buy ships and go out to lose them. As for losing shiny pods, hardwirings and pirate implants exist. People lose billion pods every day. There's still risk involved in that, and it hurts more ISK wise than losing two training implants. RavenPaine wrote: My one example would be: If you ever played online poker, you know that the fake money sites, the players don't really play the same, because they have nothing to lose. They tilt, implode, suicide. But the REAL MONEY sites, those players play differently. They play better, more consistent, more skill. The risk of a real loss makes for a better game. EVE is a game. Nothing is a real loss. How motivated you are comes down to how motivated you are in general. Most people aren't very motivated. So: 1. You are serious about 40 million isk. That's sad, and you should be embarrassed to use that as a point of argument. 2. Under your plan, newbs would not have an option to train faster. They would in fact, train at the exact same rate as every other player. No chance to ever close ground on the older players. Even a 1 day older player would be 'uncatchable'. 3. Nobody is forcing anything on anybody. You have the exact same option for risk as every other player. If you want to train as fast as I do, MAN UP and risk something for it. Stop whining about 40 million imaginary isk. which brings me to 4. If nothing is a real loss, why are you still posting? Of course there are real losses. That's what makes EVE a good game. You are starting to play your arguments from both sides of the fence here. Makes me wonder if you're trolling, or being purposely blind to the facts that have been presented.
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35301	Posted - 2015.11.16 09:14:55 - [68] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: So: 1. You are serious about 40 million isk. That's sad, and you should be embarrassed to use that as a point of argument. 2. Under your plan, newbs would not have an option to train faster. They would in fact, train at the exact same rate as every other player. No chance to ever close ground on the older players. Even a 1 day older player would be 'uncatchable'. 3. Nobody is forcing anything on anybody. You have the exact same option for risk as every other player. If you want to train as fast as I do, MAN UP and risk something for it. Stop whining about 40 million isk. which brings me to 4. If nothing is a real loss, why are you still posting? Of course there are real losses. That's what makes EVE a good game. You are starting to play your arguments from both sides of the fence here. Makes me wonder if you're trolling, or being purposely blind to the facts that have been presented. 1. Well, people were very adamant about clone upgrade costs, and those high costs were only there fot older players, who should be quote "embarrassed to use that as a point of argument". 2. Right now newbies train slower due to not being able to afford +5 sets anyway. You can never catch up in skillpoints to people who started before you, but that does not mean that you should have arbitrary restrictions on your training speed. 3. Unsubstantiated ad hominem. Class. 4. I could ask the same question for you. Take a gander at 3, and moreover being unhappy with a bad gameplay mechanic is now trolling. But you're right, maybe I should be trolling. I mean, RavenPaine wrote: You are starting to play your arguments from both sides of the fence here. Makes me wonder if you're trolling, or being purposely blind to the facts that have been presented. This is a strawman. You know it. You can't equate using cheaper implants to lessen the impact of loss on your ingame wallet to let's say, having your car tires stolen. EVE is a game, the psychological aspect of loss or trauma does not apply to ingame assets. You never had them in the first place, you were merely working within game constraints to accomplish a task. You don't even own your account.
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1160	Posted - 2015.11.16 17:44:19 - [69] - Quote I started my account. Paid real dollars for it. Then I created every asset it has with time spent in game. I made decisions on which direction to take it, and sometimes they were bad decisions. There's nothing strawman about any of that. It was first hand application and results. The fact is, I am the ONLY user that can touch that account. It most certainly is my account, created by me, for me. I could work at a job and earn 25$ an hour 7 days a week. My hours have a value, every one of them, every day. Time spent in EVE is valuable time. I could work at a job, to buy PLEX. so I could buy a Wyvern or Nyx. And guess what? That Nyx would cost me more than a set of used tires. I most certainly can and do compare those assets.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 326	Posted - 2015.11.16 22:59:39 - [70] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: 1. Well, people were very adamant about clone upgrade costs, and those high costs were only there fot older players, who should be quote "embarrassed to use that as a point of argument" Bad comparison to make. Back in the day, not so long back really, the clone upgrade cost for a high SP character could get pretty horrific. Clone upgrade costs weren't an option, you either upgraded your clone, or risked a serious setback every time you undocked. Unlike ISK for Implants, which can be earned in a number of ways both passive and active, SP is accrued in one way only: Time. I'm still a relative newbie in many ways, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate terribly well (I have Gal/Cal/Ama frigate V, Min IV along with T2 small hybrids and projectiles). I still managed to lose SP as a complete newbro and it nearly drove me out of EVE altogether. Thankfully, that awful, awful mechanic is no longer with us. Make a better argument. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35315	Posted - 2015.11.17 12:59:57 - [71] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: I started my account. Paid real dollars for it. Then I created every asset it has with time spent in game. I made decisions on which direction to take it, and sometimes they were bad decisions. There's nothing strawman about any of that. It was first hand application and results. The fact is, I am the ONLY user that can touch that account. It most certainly is my account, created by me, for me. I could work at a job and earn 25$ an hour 7 days a week. My hours have a value, every one of them, every day. Time spent in EVE is valuable time. I could work at a job, to buy PLEX. so I could buy a Wyvern or Nyx. And guess what? That Nyx would cost me more than a set of used tires. I most certainly can and do compare those assets. Can you sell your Nyx for real dollars and buy yourself tires then? Or your character, or your account, or anything ingame? Mephiztopheleze wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: 1. Well, people were very adamant about clone upgrade costs, and those high costs were only there fot older players, who should be quote "embarrassed to use that as a point of argument" Bad comparison to make. Back in the day, not so long back really, the clone upgrade cost for a high SP character could get pretty horrific. Clone upgrade costs weren't an option, you either upgraded your clone, or risked a serious setback every time you undocked. Unlike ISK for Implants, which can be earned in a number of ways both passive and active, SP is accrued in one way only: Time. I'm still a relative newbie in many ways, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate terribly well (I have Gal/Cal/Ama frigate V, Min IV along with T2 small hybrids and projectiles). I still managed to lose SP as a complete newbro and it nearly drove me out of EVE altogether. Thankfully, that awful, awful mechanic is no longer with us. Make a better argument. That's the whole point. You're losing SP unless you splurge for implants. You don't really have a choice on the matter.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1827	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:12:26 - [72] - Quote plug implants in and get faster training. dont plug implants in and have no risk of losing isk thats 2 choices how hard is it to comprehend? Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35315	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:28:23 - [73] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: plug implants in and get faster training. dont plug implants in and have no risk of losing isk thats 2 choices how hard is it to comprehend? Don't plug implants in and get slower training. Don't tell me that anyone would consciously choose to train slower. Putting a faction shield extender on your ship is a choice, with clear risk and reward. Training implants are not.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1827	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:29:55 - [74] - Quote yes plenty do because the isk loss is enough of a deterant Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35315	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:33:01 - [75] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: yes plenty do because the isk loss is enough of a deterant I'm sorry, are you under the impression that being dettered by cost is a choice?
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1827	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:33:46 - [76] - Quote yes the choice is lose isk or lose sp Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 327	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:10:46 - [77] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Don't plug implants in and get slower training. Don't tell me that anyone would consciously choose to train slower. People DO consciously choose to train slower when they feel there is a clear benefit to doing so. Having a deadhead clone gives some undeniable advantages. Being able to 'death clone' back to either your home system or school system at will is actually a pretty big deal. Here's an example: Let's say I've deployed with a group chasing content in some ungodly backwater in the far, far reaches of 0.0, 60+ jumps from my Home system and 45+ jumps from my School (I do and I have). The kind of place you need to use a taxi interceptor to get to first time around. Let's also say I have friends who do regular roams staging not far from my School system (which I do), where I have a bunch of combat ships and a sweet Snakes/Genolutions/WhatHaveYou clone for playing shenanigans with. I leave a deadhead jump clone and a couple of combat ships down in the aforementioned back of beyond. Now, here's where the magic can happen. I get a ping saying there's a brawl brewing down in said backwater. I Jump Clone OUT of my +4s or Snakes or whatever down to my deadhead and go play pewpew with the locals. During that fight, I get notice that my mates are forming up to go on a roam. Once the battle in the backwater is done, I can install a clean jump clone and death clone back to my School. I then jump in my pretty new Reaper and head off to pick up a combat ship and join my mates. Now, I won't have the bonuses of my sweet clone that I leave there for these roams, but rather than miss out on spending time flying with friends, I can indulge in multiple battles across multiple regions fairly easily, with very low risk. Once these things are complete and my Jump Clone timer expires (c'mon CCP, speed that up huh? Add in Advanced Infomorph Synchronising or something) I can then look at what's coming up and either jump back into +4s to keep training or I can stay in my deadhead for the moment until I have a clearer idea what's going on. Sure, I train a little slower than I might for a day, but it's not the end of the world and I've been able to effectively jump clone twice in under a day and get into some sweet fleet fights (which is why I play anyways). That's a pretty BIG benefit I've just gotten for 'choosing to train slower'. That said, if I'm pretty sure I won't be doing either of those activities for a couple of days, I make sure I get back into my +4s ASAP. If I'm IN My +4s and can't jump clone and a Call To Arms comes out? I just go anyways. 40m for 2x +4s is one and a bit 0.0 Forsaken Hub anomalies. I can have an alt running those in the background while I'm playing pewpew. I agree that the attribute system kinda sucks balls for newbros who need to train Int/Mem, Per/Wil and Mem/Per skills, hell I AM still one of those newbros in many, many ways. But I don't cry about losing a set of +3s, that happened when my HG Snakes got smartbombed Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35317	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:22:07 - [78] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: yes the choice is lose isk or lose sp So, what you're saying is that if someone can not afford to use higher tier attribute implants, he's choosing to do so. Mephiztopheleze wrote: -snip- There's no benefit to training slower. As for the gymnastics you just described, you can only do them once per day, then you have to wait out your jump clone timer anyway. And if it's not a big problem for you because you're running a second account, why don't you supply your "deadhead" clone with implants as well?
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1832	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:28:52 - [79] - Quote so what you are saying is if someone cant afford something it should be removed? If someone cant afford to buy something then he cant afford it, simple isnt it? so why have this argument because some people can and cant afford to buy something, it doesn't affect the choice you have it only affects the availability Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35317	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:51:40 - [80] - Quote Because attribute implants offer nothing, save for training, yet you have to have them.

RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 1165	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:10:55 - [81] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Because attribute implants offer nothing, save for training, yet you have to have them. No, you don't have to have them.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2015.11.17 23:07:29 - [82] - Quote RavenPaine wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Because attribute implants offer nothing, save for training, yet you have to have them. No, you don't have to have them. +1. They're nice, but not mandatory. Learn the difference. This argument has gone nowhere for three pages now. The OP has their opinion, the rest of us have ours and never the twain shall meet. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 251	Posted - 2015.12.12 02:25:35 - [83] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: It adds risk vs reward, it adds choice, it adds depth. I also have to decide if the advantage of ascendancy implants are worth running +3s instead of +5s. None of the above. Not running attribute implants is about as much of a choice as not upgrading your clone was. Every arguement that could be made against the clone upgrade system can be made against attribute implants, word for word. There is one difference and that is those with the highest sp had to pay-out more for clones. With implants, those with the highest sp will or should have lots of isk so implants (attribute ones) are not much of an issue for them. Paying for implants when you have lots of isk and lots of sp when sp doesn't really mean much anymore, won't be of any really issue to them. But you are wasting your time discussing it with them, as they just treat it like some kind of badge of honour. Oh the hardships PvPers must go through .
Kaska Iskalar Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 34	Posted - 2015.12.15 11:04:56 - [84] - Quote Silver Dagger Kondur wrote: Greets! Say one wants to PVP But Say one also wants to train skills a little more rapidly. So, one buys level 5 implants for perception, will, etc. but PVPs in a jump clone with no implants or maybe level 2 or 3. So... how does one both train rapidly and PVP? After all, you will be podded sooner or later, and one does not want to be buying a set of level 5 implants every few minutes or days. It's really hard to get podded unless you're in 0.0 space. If there's no bubble just start spamming warp when you hit structure and your pod gets away 99% of the time.
Silver Dagger Kondur Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2015.12.15 19:30:45 - [85] - Quote Avvy wrote: [quote=Ria Nieyli][quote=Anize Oramara].... Edit: Just noticed the date of the post above, just goes to show this forum doesn't get used much. Yeah, and that is sad. But, glad for the good info i trip across when I do visit the forums!
motie one Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 49	Posted - 2016.01.16 20:07:32 - [86] - Quote There are two core positions, that we see here in a completely polarized manner. Both answers have points, but the problem is those points on either side do not address the core issue. The question that should be being asked is " what gameplay improvements do these bring to EVE" 1. They are a major driver of the loyalty point store. Why? Because most other items in many stores, either lack desirability or are disfunctional, ie tag requirements. They could easily be replaced by other desireable items if removed. 2. People like seeing their loss on killboards, balanced by the opposite, some hate it. Net neutral 3. Training occurs at an improved rate, everybody likes faster training. Balanced by "punished" for actually PVP'ing in dangerous space. Net result fit "3's" and suck up the losses. Not training at a sane speed is a stupid choice, so much so it is actually not a choice at all. In summation they add nothing to the game that could be achieved by improving the loyalty store. And they DO discourage active or risky playstyles, not really what we are looking for, when trying to encourage newer players to diversify out of low risk play choices. But of course, no one is going to change their position as the way they weight the value of the gains and losses reinforces their position. But try to take an outside view for a moment and ask, are they good for the game, and would we introduce them if they did not already exist? Edit, hardwires and pirate implants are a choice, and a good one, but the attribute aspect of these is very much a secondary deciding factor.
Sheeth Athonille Rabid Dogz Mining The Bastion 73	Posted - 2016.01.16 23:09:50 - [87] - Quote You're saying that the cost of the implants is a negative because it makes people less risky. Then why do people pvp in expensive ships in the first place? By your logic, the risk of losing even a few million is enough to stop people from pvping. I don't find that to be the case.
Velarra 494	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:52:23 - [88] - Quote Sheeth Athonille wrote: You're saying that the cost of the implants is a negative because it makes people less risky. Then why do people pvp in expensive ships in the first place? Generally speaking, expensive ships, and hard wirings have active, during ship based pvp... value. The isk, and utility it brings through the wirings or fancy ship are applicable to the pvp that occurs while un-docked. The learning implants or the secondary aspect of implants with attribute increases, only impact the passive, long term, offline skill paths characters take. You have two conflicting options, or games, in play. The instant short term gratification and the delayed long term gratification of goal setting and new styles of game play skills make possible. The conflict often leads to people favoring the long term game / goal setting play style. While infuriating those who prefer to only play for instant gratification.
Kirobacsi Fault Line Industries Get Off My Lawn 16	Posted - 2016.02.10 02:04:20 - [89] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Cidanel Afuran wrote: If you stick to high/lowsec, you really don't have much of an excuse to ever lose a pod Svipuls can lock your pod before it warps. And that's not taking the cheeky smartbombers into account either. Just axe attribute implants. I mean, why should I risk 40m pod to fly a frigate? etc. etc. rehash arguements to remove clone upgrades. clone upgrades wasn't a choice. it was pay or lose sp. why should you risk a 40 mil pod in a frig? you don't have to if you don't want to that's the beauty of it, if you do then you are training a little faster. I use to risk a 4b+ pod in lowsec in t1 frigs, honestly the only place I would be afraid to use that pod would be 00 due to bubbles everywhere else is pretty safe if your not dumb, in lowsec there are a couple people that specialize in smart bombing pods bit once you figure them out you can try to avoid them, fly safe!


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