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Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/01/2007 23:34:54 Vagabond. 210 million. Cerberus. 200 million. Astarte. 135 million. Nighthawk. 195 million. Vulture/Damnation/Claymore? 60-65 million. So cheap that they're basically below build cost. People whine about tech 2 prices, but why don't I see more people flying these Fleet Command ships? They're so cheap that insurance should pay out effectively for them, and they're hardly more ISK than a T1 Tier 2 battlecruiser like the Drake. Sure, one might say that not everyone needs it for the Fleet Command role. But heck, at that price, wouldn't the ship be effective as a combat ship too? Do they really suck that badly, or is everyone so obsessed with HACs that they forget about these cost-efficient ships? -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:40:00 - [2] its more of a skill thing. you need BC V. people use tier 2 battlecruisers atm. BC V is a skill investment.
Smets	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:42:00 - [3] I'd better go out and buy 20 and wait for the day the prices rise
Emo Jelli	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:44:00 - [4] People do already fly Command Ships, thanks for asking.
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:44:00 - [5] Damnation: tank - a little better than absolution gank - a little better than... frigate. Worse than AF (or sabre)... Prefer Field command which tanks tad worse (yeah just some explo and kin resist loss) but deals 2,5-3x more damage
Tousaka Langley	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:45:00 - [6] Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 03/01/2007 23:45:51 Have you compared a Nighthawk to a Vulture? The Vulture has it's uses, no doubt, but it isn't nearly to the same extent as the Nighthawk. The vulture has no damage augmentations on it. It can tank like a pro, no doubt in my mind, but its DPS isn't there for any type of solo work. Then again, I got my Nighthawk back when they sucked. Hell, I think it was cheaper then a Vulture at that point.
Marquis Dean Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:50:00 - [7] The Vulture has a hooooge range bonus and in alot of PvP that range bonus equates to a damage bonus in that you can use more high-damage ammo at longer ranges, e.g: antimatter out to 45km or whatever (I completely made that up, i've no idea what it would come to). ------ ------
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2007.01.03 23:52:00 - [8] Astarte and Nighthawk need BC 5, too, so that's not the problem. Logistics IV is, though. Rank 6, Will/Perc based, with Sig. Analysis V (hm, usefull) and Long Range Targeting V (aaaargh) as prerequisites. The real problem are only 5 turret slots on Nighthawk and Claymore and 4 on Damnation (). In cotrast, Eos gets 7 turrets. Though it has only 1 turret bonus, the "missing" one is more than compensated by drone bay bonus. No wonder you coldn't include it among the "value FCs". ------ No ISK, no fun
Marquis Dean Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:06:00 - [9] Yeah but the Eos doesn't work well in an offensive role, since it lacks a drone damage/hitpoint bonus, drones being it's primary weapon system, or at least half of a split. That one fact alone put me off and I went Amarr rather than Gallente CBCs. ------ ------
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Marquis Dean Yeah but the Eos doesn't work well in an offensive role, since it lacks a drone damage/hitpoint bonus, drones being it's primary weapon system, or at least half of a split. That one fact alone put me off and I went Amarr rather than Gallente CBCs. Didn't realize the Eos was in such a position. But the Astarte! OMG! It's a huge Deimos baby!
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/01/2007 23:34:54 Vagabond. 210 million. Cerberus. 200 million. Astarte. 135 million. Nighthawk. 195 million. Vulture/Damnation/Claymore? 60-65 million. So cheap that they're basically below build cost. People whine about tech 2 prices, but why don't I see more people flying these Fleet Command ships? They're so cheap that insurance should pay out effectively for them, and they're hardly more ISK than a T1 Tier 2 battlecruiser like the Drake. Sure, one might say that not everyone needs it for the Fleet Command role. But heck, at that price, wouldn't the ship be effective as a combat ship too? Do they really suck that badly, or is everyone so obsessed with HACs that they forget about these cost-efficient ships? Mainly due to the skills - Theyre hard to skill up for in terms of time investment. As such, not many people fly them. However they are far from crap. Vulture = Eagle with better tank and damage...well...unless you have Hac lv 5. Same damage with Hac lv 4 (not including drones). Eos - Moaned about being too good - No clue why but anyhow. Claymore..no clue. Damnation...who knows. But all i know, is that the vulture kicks ass. I can get 28k hp on that thing, with a 350 second recharge rate. Top that with 70-80% resists, and thats one hell of a tank. With blasters, its like a Beagle, but better. With rails, its just as good as an eagle, but boosts ure e-peen more (and cheaper) So in short..its a skills thing ^^
QwaarJet Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:18:00 - [12] I own a Vulture and used to own an Eos. I like Fleet Command ships, I just prefer the sheer damage of the field commands. Vulture is a good price though, so much so you can actually insure the thing. But I'd have any of them over hacs any day. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Part Troll	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:20:00 - [13] I have never quite understood what command ships can do, can anyone tell me?
Mishura Desante Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:28:00 - [14] Edited by: Mishura Desante on 04/01/2007 00:30:17 Damnation make a great fleet support ship; I happen to fly something of a different setup though - but it tanks like a beast, can do some okay dmg, and is great in its role with command mods and what they affect. As to their role - it depends on the ship, but I think of them as a hybrid ship of sorts (instead of focusing on dmg, or tank, or ecm, etc; they do them all, but not as effective) In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move
Yarek Balear The Initiative	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Part Troll I have never quite understood what command ships can do, can anyone tell me? They're the T2 equivalent of Battlecruisers... They're what a HAC is to a Cruiser, but in BC form... The Field Command Ships do lots and lots of damage and the Fleet command ships are more gang focussed.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.04 00:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Waxau Vulture = Eagle with better tank and damage...well...unless you have Hac lv 5. Same damage with Hac lv 4 (not including drones). Actualy damage is equal at HAC 5. Eagle has 4 guns and a 5% damage bonus. 4x1.25=5 So at HAC 5 its 4 guns normalize to 5. Quote: Eos - Moaned about being too good - No clue why but anyhow. Big ol' drone bay with 7 bonused turrets. Compared to any of the other fleet command ships is does the most damage hands down and doesnt lose all that much comparativly fitting its gang mods. Claymore and Damnation are basically fleet command duty only. Great tanks, but no utility or damage. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
ViperVenom Minmatar Fast Food Corp Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.01.04 01:57:00 - [17] The Claymore is rolling Tank. With a full Crystal set/25% implant boni. It pretty much dayum hrad to kill. I kno i fly one. With a Gistii X type xl X Type shiled boost i tank a gang solo. People just don't want to train all the skills for a fleet command ship thats all. BUt they will still pwn HAC's/BC and most BS solo. and thats just my .09 isk
Kalek Astroth Amarr The Electrocuted	Posted - 2007.01.04 02:38:00 - [18] so true , cs , well fleet ones are cheap , people dont usually fly them cause of skill and cause of their strenght is related to gang modules (can fit 3) so if you are not in a fleet or a quite big gang a fleet cs is ... only a very good tanker otherwise can nicely boost your gang with helpfull bonus field cs have good tank and some of them with maxed out skills and high lvl fit can do 1000+dps , only downside that also a mega can have a decent tank do 1000+ dps if maxed out, and most important thing its fully insurable . btw its also cheaper
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.04 02:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/01/2007 23:34:54 Vagabond. 210 million. Cerberus. 200 million. Astarte. 135 million. Nighthawk. 195 million. Vulture/Damnation/Claymore? 60-65 million. So cheap that they're basically below build cost. People whine about tech 2 prices, but why don't I see more people flying these Fleet Command ships? They're so cheap that insurance should pay out effectively for them, and they're hardly more ISK than a T1 Tier 2 battlecruiser like the Drake. Sure, one might say that not everyone needs it for the Fleet Command role. But heck, at that price, wouldn't the ship be effective as a combat ship too? Do they really suck that badly, or is everyone so obsessed with HACs that they forget about these cost-efficient ships? For starters, the Nighthawk has to have a gank setup to kill certain NPCs, against players it'd be as dangerous as a ferox. I noticed the Eos is popular, but it also gets a nice omgwtfhuge dronebay. Oh wait,that's right; the Eos, unlike the others, has 7 unsplit hard-points to compliment its 100-300m3 sized dronebay which by itself can pretty much out DPS the Vulture, Damnation or Claymore. 7 blasters, with a damage bonus, and the ability to field 5 heavies and carry 5 more (or meds/lights), compared to the split systems of the others, and their **ant damage and single weapon bonus which gets split. I honestly would love to know wtf CCP was thinking when they released the Eos. In short DS, yes, those three ships suck. While the Vulture can have a passive tank that is nothing short of absurd, it's only slightly better than the Nighthawk, which will out DPS the Vulture and doesn't need cap for weapons. Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.04 03:23:00 - [20] bc5 is a long assed skill, essentially. Ill probably train it on my alt as he can use mini and amarr hacs and recons, thus gaining access to abs damnation claymore and sleipnir. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig By Ortos
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.04 03:54:00 - [21] Originally by: ViperVenom The Claymore is rolling Tank. With a full Crystal set/25% implant boni. It pretty much dayum hrad to kill. I kno i fly one. With a Gistii X type xl X Type shiled boost i tank a gang solo. People just don't want to train all the skills for a fleet command ship thats all. BUt they will still pwn HAC's/BC and most BS solo. and thats just my .09 isk Congrats, you now have a ship thats hard to kill, can't kill anything and can't tackle. And all that for only the price of a full set of faction implants and the best large booster money can buy. @ the OP. With the exception of the Eos, these ships only really come into their own when they are used for the purpose they were designed for, gangmods.
Father Weebles Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.01.04 05:27:00 - [22] damage "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.04 06:19:00 - [23] "People whine about tech 2 prices, but why don't I see more people flying these Fleet Command ships?" You only need one per squad/wing/whatever. That hardly makes much demand, and since their strength is in the gang links, they are weaker in other areas. That, and there's little point for people to train up logistics when they generally already have the heavy assault ships trained and can utilize the ships more suited for regular pew pew already (field commands)
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.04 06:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Emo Jelli People do already fly Command Ships, thanks for asking. People fly command ships???WHERE? He said FLEET command ships,outside of their traditional role they arent used very much besides the uber tank they usually possess because most of them have gimp dps compared to the field command. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.01.04 07:17:00 - [25] I'd take the Claymore over the Sleipnir anyday...if I was going to fly either... ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Gee'Kin Tha Specialz	Posted - 2007.01.04 08:46:00 - [26] tho i have a much better tank/dps ration on a nighthawk then on then the bling bling vulture. Why i ever wasted my time training logistics .. beats me --------------------------------------------> Plz tickle my brain. I wanna have a Brainfart ! -------------------------------------------->
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.01.04 08:52:00 - [27] I'm planning to use fleet command ships, but training the leaderships skills, and logistic-related skills, takes time, so it's a signifiant investment on things that don't improve your own WTFPWN solo skills. I don't think theres that many pilots ready to do that... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Majutsu Caldari S.Y.N.D	Posted - 2007.01.04 08:52:00 - [28] I agree with those about skills, you need to put a hell of a lot of time in to fly them, they are however still quite underated IMO. Vulture is an awesome tanker, I doubt there's better in the game. Caldari Gunboat Pilot
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.04 09:41:00 - [29] I never regretted training for damnation/eos. But damnation while having gang modules on... i wonder if i can beat passive shield recharge of shuttle. It can tackle well though -------- The BoB model is bad for business. Incidently the BoB model is more suited for a game such as WoW where as the ASCN model more suited for Eve. McGreedy
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.04 10:32:00 - [30] Originally by: j0sephine "People whine about tech 2 prices, but why don't I see more people flying these Fleet Command ships?" You only need one per squad/wing/whatever. That hardly makes much demand, and since their strength is in the gang links, they are weaker in other areas. That, and there's little point for people to train up logistics when they generally already have the heavy assault ships trained and can utilize the ships more suited for regular pew pew already (field commands) Pretty much yeah.
Van Nostrand Gallente Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.01.05 11:03:00 - [31] Have to say - I like command ship - so much in fact that I fly them in many forms. For PvP (pure damage) I prefer the Absolution, for ratting I use a Damnation or Vulture. I find them easy to fit, all have good stong tank, and all do reasonable damage. Interestingly in PvP, attacking ships will often target and fire on the command ship first - not simply because of the assists - but because they do at least as much damage as a tier 1 BS.
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.01.05 11:16:00 - [32] Well the vulture has its own little niche. It can fit the 2nd best passive tank in game for a non-capital ship ("nd to the rattlesnake) and is very versatile. Can be set as a sniper with a 220km range, or can be set as a blaster boat. Regarding how people use them : I rarely use mine with gang mods. Reason for this is firstly, i have to be gang leader. That brings its own limitations and in fleet ops, im not a natural leader, and as such, dont like having to role:P However even that side, the vulture is great in blaster or rail setup. A bulture can tear through most battleships due to the superior tank. And the Snulture (Sniper Vulture ) is just as good as an eagle when it comes to sniping, except has a greater tank WHILST sniping, and can fit 5 light drones. And ofcourse is cheaper. Fleet ships lack hugely in damage i have found however. They largely rely on a strong tank, to just outlive the opponent. My vultures passive tank can tank a thanatos with high skills for 10 minutes. However, when it comes to dps, i cant break a prophecy's. Its all about balance with Fleet CBC, and sadly it often results in cookie cutter setups, due to a lack of versatility between tank and gank. But thats just my opinion ^^
Hank Showbo	Posted - 2007.01.05 12:15:00 - [33] Edited by: Hank Showbo on 05/01/2007 12:15:52 I do actually have a little whine about the fleet command ships :S The Damnation/Claymore/Vulture all have the basic dps than the t1 counterpart, some have range bonuses, tracking, so they do have a little more dps, apart from damnation. The one thing that really annoys me is the Eos, apart from its uber tank (which all fleet commands have), it has 2 damage bonuses (drone bay), enough grid to fit 7 neutrons and 5 mediums slots for versatility in fleet/gang/solo PVP. How can CCP justify the fact that the eos has the second best fleet command tank, the best damage of the fleet commands, and five medium slots, taking into account the other fleet command ships? Anyway to answer the original post is maybe the BPOs for fleet commands ended in the right hands? I dont know.
Hank Showbo	Posted - 2007.01.05 12:15:00 - [34] Edited by: Hank Showbo on 05/01/2007 12:15:41
The Shin	Posted - 2007.01.05 12:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Marquis Dean Yeah but the Eos doesn't work well in an offensive role, since it lacks a drone damage/hitpoint bonus, drones being it's primary weapon system, or at least half of a split. That one fact alone put me off and I went Amarr rather than Gallente CBCs. BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!! stop lieing for the EVE comunity! Eos is the most powerfull and most devestating BC in teh game. With guns only, sure the astarte beats it, but when we count in tank, and those dear drones. its pure DPS is scary, same with the tank. also to use 3 gang mods, even if you just 10 ppl in gang.. makes a HUGE difference. to have 7 t2 ions fireing at you + 5 t2 ogres circling ya. you will be hurt. so NO, eos is very combat able.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Goumindong Big ol' drone bay with 7 bonused turrets. Compared to any of the other fleet command ships is does the most damage hands down and doesnt lose all that much comparativly fitting its gang mods. As someone who fly an Eos I must point out 2 things: * The Eos has a much weaker tank than then 3 other fleet command ships (and in return a considerably better offence). * Gang mods and Eos in one sentence? Have you ever tried to fit 3 gang mods on an Eos? It's horribly lacking in fittings compared to the reqs of gang mods. To say something like that an Eos can fit 3 gang mods and still be wtfbbq in a gang with it's dronebay and so on is just completely wrong. If you want to fit 3 ganglinks on it you'll have to sacrifice alot that the other 3 fleet commandships don't. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:00:00 - [37] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 05/01/2007 13:00:42 3 days 11 hours till BC5!!! But Im training it for the myrmidon though, screw FC's. 550 dps with a 100dps repper with only risking 30mill max is disgusting. I've stopped flying HAC's, even with HAC5, It makes me sick when you lose one. And even a T2BC isnt worth the loss to me. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Hulemand Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:39:00 - [38] Being a pilot with alot of skillpoints in leadership, Command Ship lvl 5, alot of support skills etc. I fly both field and fleet command ships. For PvE there is no reason what so ever to pilot a fleet command unless you are doing some high lvl complex and have a large gang. For PvP, you need to figure out when it is better to focus fully on warfare modules using a fleet command ship or just bring a BS or something else. Normaly you'd need a rather large gang before your leadership stuff becomes of more value than an extra BS setup fro damage or perhaps a field command. I think that the bonus these ships gain to their field of warfare modules might be a bit to weak. Sure they are great tanks, but with half your highslots full of cap eating warfare modules they are not exactly great in the offensive role. I'd suggest inceasing the bonus they get to warfare modulesn and perhaps a hidden bonus to pg and cap use of the same modules. - Hulemand
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:55:00 - [39] Claymore DPS is pathetically weak. Its still a decent ship, but the skill reqs are also insane. Shamis
Karunel Princeps Corp	Posted - 2007.01.05 15:51:00 - [40] Personally I love the Eos, 7 Heavy Neutron II + heavies II for the days I cba to fit leadership stuff. Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
FireAnt	Posted - 2007.01.05 16:35:00 - [41] i think fleet and field command ships are underrated. As for cost compared for hacs there is no comparison. every hac either runs or dies against a command ship. the fleet command ship granted cannot kill a hac well other than eos, but a hac will never kill it. the field command can tank and gank at the same time yet sell for a fraction of what hacs sell for. to me is all about skills. people dont have the skills to fly command ships, and if they do and they choose a hac over a command ship then i dont know what to say as a hac doesnt stand a chance against a field command ship.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.05 17:16:00 - [42] Originally by: Karunel Personally I love the Eos, 7 Heavy Neutron II. Yea, I also sometimes fit 7 neutrons on my nano-eos. But unless you're flying such a thing, please enlighten all of us how the heck you've managed to fit 7 neutrons, k? You're out of grid way before that with a 'proper' setup :s Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:36:00 - [43] I do. The damnation is not a bad ship. it only sucks if you use lasers. Strap on 3 medium nos, 4 heavy launcher 2's or 425mm 2's, web, scram, ab, maybe a tracking comp or sensor booster., medium armor rep 2, 1600rt plate. Slap a passive tank on there and you're immune to amarr pilots worst enemy. nos. Plus you have a sick tank. I tried a similar setup on test server and made bs run 1vs1. The damnation is a great ship but a crappy laserboat. It's never going to be a zealot or absolution. It's great for it's role. Solid support ship with he gang mods or it can be decent in pvp with a little ingenuity.
Hulemand Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:51:00 - [44] Originally by: Liet Traep I do. The damnation is not a bad ship. it only sucks if you use lasers. Strap on 3 medium nos, 4 heavy launcher 2's or 425mm 2's, web, scram, ab, maybe a tracking comp or sensor booster., medium armor rep 2, 1600rt plate. Slap a passive tank on there and you're immune to amarr pilots worst enemy. nos. Plus you have a sick tank. I tried a similar setup on test server and made bs run 1vs1. The damnation is a great ship but a crappy laserboat. It's never going to be a zealot or absolution. It's great for it's role. Solid support ship with he gang mods or it can be decent in pvp with a little ingenuity. And how does that setup help you? With your highs full of nos/missiles you wont help your gang. Your damage is rubbish and for the same price you could get a BS that does the job alot greater! - Hulemand
000Hunter000 Gallente The Lookers	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:02:00 - [45] NH is my primary ship atm (poor raven is gathering dust in me hangar). It excelled at doing L4 mission pre rmr and it excells now. Starting to see more NH's in mission systems now, once u start using it on L'4's u will never want to go back to the clumsy Raven. Might buy a vulture just for the gangbonus thingy and use it as tanker on group L4's. Bought me a new cerb before i went on holiday (bought it on a whim) but i must say it does not even compare to the NH... mebbe i'll sell it again Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
FraXy 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:46:00 - [46] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Karunel Personally I love the Eos, 7 Heavy Neutron II. Yea, I also sometimes fit 7 neutrons on my nano-eos. But unless you're flying such a thing, please enlighten all of us how the heck you've managed to fit 7 neutrons, k? You're out of grid way before that with a 'proper' setup :s Magic maybe? AWU 3 then this fits: High: 5x Heavy Ion II 2x Heavy Neutron II Mid: Y-T8 Mwd Fleeting 20k Fleeting Web EW Slot Medium Electrochemical w/800`s Lows: 2x MAR II 1x Explosive Hardener II 1x EANM II 1x F85 DCU Dronebay: Personal preference EW Slot is also personal preference. I tend to use Balmer TD to reduce incoming damage from say Amarr ships or a Sniper ship that tries to add damage on me when i`m in an engagement. Other possibility is RSD II or Phased Muon, doesn`t 'break' locks, but can give u more time to take care of the drones in a battle or just give u time to react. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Waxau Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.01.06 00:55:00 - [47] Originally by: 000Hunter000 NH is my primary ship atm (poor raven is gathering dust in me hangar). It excelled at doing L4 mission pre rmr and it excells now. Starting to see more NH's in mission systems now, once u start using it on L'4's u will never want to go back to the clumsy Raven. Might buy a vulture just for the gangbonus thingy and use it as tanker on group L4's. Bought me a new cerb before i went on holiday (bought it on a whim) but i must say it does not even compare to the NH... mebbe i'll sell it again With all due respect, if its your main ship, you surely would know that its a FIELD command, and is therefore off topic here
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.06 04:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Hulemand Originally by: Liet Traep I do. The damnation is not a bad ship. it only sucks if you use lasers. Strap on 3 medium nos, 4 heavy launcher 2's or 425mm 2's, web, scram, ab, maybe a tracking comp or sensor booster., medium armor rep 2, 1600rt plate. Slap a passive tank on there and you're immune to amarr pilots worst enemy. nos. Plus you have a sick tank. I tried a similar setup on test server and made bs run 1vs1. The damnation is a great ship but a crappy laserboat. It's never going to be a zealot or absolution. It's great for it's role. Solid support ship with he gang mods or it can be decent in pvp with a little ingenuity. And how does that setup help you? With your highs full of nos/missiles you wont help your gang. Your damage is rubbish and for the same price you could get a BS that does the job alot greater! Obviously that's not a gang setup. My gang setup uses 4 heavy pulse 2's, 3 gang mods and a cap injector. But this thread was talking about the shortcomings of Fleet Command Ships. And i was showing that you can use a damnation effectively in small gang pvp. And yes that nos setup does pathetic damage. But it has lots of nos, a really tough tank sustainable damage not vulnerable to nos. It's a similar setup to the old nos sacrilege setups. And those were VERY effective back in the day. Just trying to show a setup I'm fond of for the damnation.
Phyrexia Tarzig	Posted - 2007.01.06 10:28:00 - [49] Claymore + interceptor gang =
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:30:00 - [50] Maybe when they fix nos... a battleship nossing a command ship, guess who wins... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:52:00 - [51] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz but the skill reqs are also insane. Shamis skill req's were inline before they changed the whole gang system. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.06 11:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Jim McGregor Maybe when they fix nos... a battleship nossing a command ship, guess who wins... the commandship that has a capinjector fitted? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Jim McGregor Maybe when they fix nos... a battleship nossing a command ship, guess who wins... the commandship that has a capinjector fitted? No, try again. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
dabster Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:32:00 - [54] I reckon its a lot to do with skills why not many fly Claymore/Damnation etc. Most people have the pre-reqs from hacs and lack bc 5+warfare link4. For the fleet commands most will lack both long range targetting 1-2 weeks, and logistics 4. What you actually get for spending 3 weeks on getting those skills up, is not worth the effort. Field commands are SO much better and more fun. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:45:00 - [55] I still think they are great in a gang though. Those gang bonuses do a lot for the gang... I know Claymore can help a Vagabond break the sound barrier. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hotice	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:56:00 - [56] I fly all the HACs and Field command ships. I like zealot, vagabond, absolution, and sleipnir the most. HACs are fast and deadly. You cannot go head to head with battleships and try to tough it out. They simply not build for that kind of action. Field command ships are much better for that role. Astarte and Sleipnir can both dish out very serious damage. Absolution is just an all around good ship for pretty much any situation. NH with new ship bonus has becoming a much better ship. However I dislike missiles personally. The whole reason that command ships in general is cheaper is due their skill requirment. They require more skills than training battleship to lvl 5. HACs on the other hand are very easily trained. For pve, HAC can do the job well enough. Many just cannot stand the slowness of command ships and battleships anymore. For pvp, I honestly have not see much fleet command ships. All I have seen so far are blaster astarte, AC sleipnir, and a few absolutions. Honestly, unless you are in a large gang, otherwise field command ships would help much more. On the receiving end of those ships is not a very good thing.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.06 14:37:00 - [57] Originally by: Hotice Over all, I would say Sleipnir is the best field command ship. It is very fast, got super tank, can switch damage type at will, instant damage, and do well in both close and long range. I think ccp did a perfect job for this ship. I want a tech 2 version of the Hurricane. A minmatar armor tanked command ship with higher damage than the Sleipnir (and much less tank) would make people train for these ships immediately. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hank Showbo	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:21:00 - [58] Does everyone agree the Damnation/Vulture/Claymore need some changing? Eos got damage/tank/EW, the others got tank. It isnt really fair is it?
dabster Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.06 17:01:00 - [59] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Hotice Over all, I would say Sleipnir is the best field command ship. It is very fast, got super tank, can switch damage type at will, instant damage, and do well in both close and long range. I think ccp did a perfect job for this ship. I want a tech 2 version of the Hurricane. A minmatar armor tanked command ship with higher damage than the Sleipnir (and much less tank) would make people train for these ships immediately. Oooooh yes! MAKE IT DARK BLUE!!! Im expecting to get the bpo too. or..erm...bpo yea sure.. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.06 17:11:00 - [60] Our killboards penalise you for losing a command ship about 10-20 times more than losing a battlecruiser. My killboard score should be positive but isn't. --------------------------------------------------------------------
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.06 19:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Dark Shikari Why don't people fly Fleet Command ships? Ok, seriously, to answer your OP DS, the answer is very obvious imo: it's in the nature of the gang links. Nevermind the new gang/fleet mechanics. They simply aren't useful enough. I think we all agree that the fleet command bonus to gang links aren't much of a bonus. The real bonus on them is that you can run 3 links. But how often do you really want to run 3 links? First off, let's make this very clear: it's seriously not worth it to fit ganglinks unless you have a command link implant plugged in. So, no matter what skills you have, you can only rly use one kind of gang links at once (the only real exception would possibly be to have a fleet commander sitting at a POS, running 7 links to give bonus to his 200-man-blob). Let's look at the armor/shield ones. The resist ones are kinda always handy, despite the stacking. What about the others? Simply put, the larger the gang, the less useful they are. Actually, you hardly need more than a skirmish gang to reach a state where they become useless. On the other hand, the smaller the gang, the more useful the bonus is. I mean, seriously, the bonus is most useful when you are solo. But then comes the fact that the smaller the gang, the more you have to give up in firepower to fit the mods. So, you only get a small window where these mods are actually useful. Often it might be better to run a field command ship with just the resistance. Further, these links do not affect capital size mods. Nor remote mods. So, for example, in the ally tourney I ran an Eos - with nothing but one armor resistance link! The other links were simply useless (and I opted for Eos instead of Astarte, cause I was 2-4 remote mods/match and so had much more use of dronebay than hybrid bonus). What about the information ones? Electronic superiority is teh pwn, end of story. If you are running a gang with lots of EW that is. The usefulness of the others is seriously doubtful. Both because the bonus to the sensor strength simply is very small, and ECM is much less used, while the resolution one simply is completely useless. It can also be noted that pretty much all of these bonuses are kinda useless in large long-range battles. So again we are in a situation where you'll hardly ever find it useful to run more than one. The skirmish ones on the other hand. They are very useful. Either to be used in a "tackler wing" in a fleet, in a "nano-gang", or just for tackling in any skirmish gang. However, here the mechanics of gang links really come in play. I mean, typicly you don't send you commandship in first. You want to send in tacklers/scouts first. And that's when you really need the bonus. But no. Not until your commandship has jumped in and warped to the site can he finally activate the mods and start giving you a bonus. About time, eh? Which again kinda limit the use of the mods to 100% nano-gangs and ships sitting at a POS during fleet warfare. That's my take on it. Personally I don't use them much, despite that I can - and that I'm in a corp mostly doing skirmish warfare where the links should be useful. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Peanut's Alt	Posted - 2007.01.06 19:24:00 - [62] The answer is simple. They are only useful in large gangs. At that, only large gangs of large ships because they can't keep up with fast frigate/cruiser gangs. Large fleets with large ships do not happen often enough for many people to actually want to train Battlecruiser V. Especially since three T1 battlecruisers will be almost as good at the whole "fleet bonus" thing as a single fleet command battleship. The only way they would start seeing a lot of use is if they could use links that no other ships in the game could use.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.06 20:44:00 - [63] Originally by: dalman What about the information ones? Electronic superiority is teh pwn, end of story. If you are running a gang with lots of EW that is. The usefulness of the others is seriously doubtful. Both because the bonus to the sensor strength simply is very small, and ECM is much less used, while the resolution one simply is completely useless. It can also be noted that pretty much all of these bonuses are kinda useless in large long-range battles. So again we are in a situation where you'll hardly ever find it useful to run more than one. The optimal range boosting ones are useful in larger battles when you have a good number of jamming ships (rooks, scorps), and you're fighting at 200km. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Hulemand Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.08 01:08:00 - [64] bump because I still think fleet command ships is all next to useless except perhaps in fleet battles - and not enough of us have those. - Hulemand
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.01.08 01:17:00 - [65] Nerf the Eos. It does almost the same damage as the Astarte, FFS. It can be a better field command than the real field commands at times, too, even the astarte. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Galen Silas Gallente Mean Corp	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:41:00 - [66] Originally by: The Shin BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!! stop lieing for the EVE comunity! Eos is the most powerfull and most devestating BC in teh game. With guns only, sure the astarte beats it, but when we count in tank, and those dear drones. its pure DPS is scary, same with the tank. also to use 3 gang mods, even if you just 10 ppl in gang.. makes a HUGE difference. to have 7 t2 ions fireing at you + 5 t2 ogres circling ya. you will be hurt. so NO, eos is very combat able. I'm not so sure about being the best BC in the game, i fly gallente as well and fly the astarte, another account i fly has an eos, I have also tested the eos out against other command ships, except minmatar ones. It holds a tank well enough but lacks the damage, one thing to remember about the drones is they will die fairly quick if fire is focused on them, and you last about as long as your cap charges. The astarte will pound an Eos to a ****y like mush. But the Eos does have its purposes, fit some nos to keep your reps going fit your heavy tech2 drones with some medium and light mayeb for backups, gang mods help too, but don't fit the E-warfare ones. Thats one thing I am positive ccp wasnt thinking about when they put it into the game.
Denrace Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.01.08 15:47:00 - [67] Nice resistances, but woeful damage output. Also, the bonus they get to race specific gang mods is hardly worth the training time and effort. A Damnation can use Siege (caldari) Warfare links but they are only slightly less effective than when used on a Vulture (with a bonus to them). Gang mods also use vast amounts of cap, meaning tanking isnt exactly great in conjunction. Another factor? Carriers (becoming increasingly common in gangs) usually fit warfare links too - meaning a guy sat in a Fleet Command would be more use in a Field Command dishing out more DPS, or in a Scorpion or something. Theyre pretty crap at the moment. Den ________________________________________
Greenbolt	Posted - 2007.01.08 21:24:00 - [68] Ive flown my claymore for a bit now and have found that its only really useful as stated previously in very certain circumstances. Primarily if your hunting someone without jumping systems (so your links can actually run). Another limitation is that you have to be a gang leader for your bonuses to matter at all. I tend to go into wing commander slot which is the best place really for them I think because you can share your bonus in system fairly well without having to take up a gang squad slot that could be used for gang warping etc. Alot of people dont like gang leadership..even those that do..you only need so many of them and then the rest are wasted training... As a solo ship...well the tank is amazing...but your still gonna get ganked by a wellsetup T2 fit battleship that gets in nos range unless your willing to spend alot of isk. Most people prefer gank to tank in pvp anyway. so its become very specialized and therefore not really useful for many in a corp/alliance to train for..its hard to train for and therefore its just not popular. If you could run your links while in warp...it might gain a bit more value.

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