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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.08 22:28:00 -
[1]
Originally by: JP Moregain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Actually Opportunity Cost very neatly supports his real attempted argument.
I will however agree with you that his usage of the word "free" was gross exageration since T2 BPO's will retain value and thus Datacores will also retain value due to Opportunity cost.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.08 22:39:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Yes you can get datacores from your agents for no cost in isk, but there is a research point cost. When you could simple sell your datacores for 10-20m on the market (mechanical is going to end up being over 20m each when more people are inventing, you already can't find sell orders for mechanical cheaper than about 20m per datacore)
Your argument is not wrong in how to make the most money at this point in time. The thing you are not considering is how will the market end up after months of inventions existance.
The price of datacores will go down though specifically because of the intense profits you have mentioned. I myself have never bothered with RP points on any of my 3 accounts even over a year and a half of playing becaue the T2 BPO lottery seemed a waste of time to me. As soon as I log in later I will begin producing them just to cash in on all that money for no work.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.08 23:23:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Let me in on your secret on how you create characters that get research points for no work.
I was under the impression that you continue to acquire RP's after doing a small amount of work to set it up correctly for basically forever with no maitenance. As I said though I've never done it before. If I am somehow incorrect in this assumption please feel free to correct me.
If you're just nitpicking over my usage of "no work" when there is actually a small amount of work required then that's hardly an effective counter to my argument.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 01:09:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
Huh? Here is a quote from Wikipedia which directly refutes his attempted argument:
Your quote really had nothing to do with his attempted argument? It was simply about the danger of mistaking something to be free when it is in fact not free.
Your quote directly applies to the wording he used where he tried to say the datacores were free. Him saying that actually had nothing to do with the argument he is obviously persuing though.
Quote:
So what exactly is the opportunity cost of a datacore?
Not to nit-pick but you did leave out some of the opportunity costs of a datacore.
1) You could use the time required to acquire the datacore and sell/use it to do something else (like mining). (very extremely low value) 2) You could not buy the datacore and wait some unknowable time till the next T2 BPO seeding and possibly get a T2 BPO. (extremly low value) 3) You can invent something with it. (high value) 4) You can sell it. (high value)
As far as I know these are the only 4 possible considerations. The actual value of one and two are practically nothing and thus do not need to be considered when you seek the highest opportunity cost.
This is why opportunity cost supports his argument. If you list all the possible opportunity costs it quickly becomes apparent that it's a no brainer to produce datacores as fast as you possibly can.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 11:17:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sorela on 09/01/2007 11:18:24
Originally by: Ryysa Actually, this free datacore argument is pretty silly, I'll give a very simple example that appliess.
There is no free datacore argument. The only discussion is over what price will datacores eventually fall too a year from now or so.
Quote:
Trasforming Rp in datacores mean lowering the chance of getting a BPO, a commodity that will maintain a better profit margin that invention forever.
Except the value of BPO's will go way down now finally as well. Just look at the thread about Cap Recharger II's price's dropping like a rock. Can you honestly convince yourself that that BPO will not drop in value a great deal when it's profit margins drop as well?
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 11:52:00 -
[6]
The information on how to make an RP alt was useful Shayla thanks. But I think you are exagerating somewhat. Obviously you can do far less than that and still get RP's.
It's deffinetly not free but it's certainly far cheaper than what you have described since you don't have to do all of that just to get some RP's.
How about everyone stop going off topic though just to rag on some guy who used the word free in an annoying/incorrect way though. It irks me too when I listen to people who think the minerals they mine are free but it's hardly a relevant topic to this convo.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 13:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
and you will get about 5 rp/day with a very bad level 1 agent. A datacore cost 500 rp.
You need the other skills to run a higher level agent? Or just to run more than one agent? In the end the point is for very little training time, money, and work you can still get an alt that makes a datacore every 100 days.
That datacore will have good value and the work and real life money (in account fees for the training) required to get it is not much. Thus most people will start to do at least that much and datacore prices will fall.
How far they will fall will be the actual question. None of this factors in the fact that they aren't dropping in the exploration sites yet either like they are supposed too.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 13:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lady Noir
You can't just take up high level agents, you need to grind standing with them to be able to use them, and that takes a while.
But you don't need to use high level agents. Also even if you did that doesn't require training time (thus you can use alts) and the payoff for forever still makes the time investment small in compairison.
Quote: You will also need to do about 2-3 months or more of skill training just so you can get a decent amount of RP.
Decent is an objective word. According to the provided figures I'll be able to get 9 datacores per 100 days (3 accounts 3 chars) for minimal training time. Looking at the skills I can double this number in a single days training time by training Laboratory Operation 1 on all 9 characters. A little more training time to get Lab Op 3 on all 9 characters quadruples it to 36 datacores per 100 days.
Your argument is completely flawed in that you are looking at how to maximize things whereas I am only looking at how to get a little something extra out of the accounts I already pay for. Even if you don't consider this a substantial amount if it's profitable everyone will at least do this much and thus datacore prices will drop.
If I am wrong in this at least point me to why I'm wrong without pointing out false scenarios where you assume me to be so stupid that I would train up 3 months of skills when I don't have to. I fully admit I don't know all the mechanics yet and I could very well be wrong but you and the other person have only sought to present cases which have absolutely nothing at all to do with what I am discussing.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 14:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lady Noir
Blah blah.
Again you seek to make a point to someone who doesn't understand the RP system without bothering to explain the RP system in a way that supports your point.
You keep using the word "decent".
Assume I consider 1 rp a week decent and work from there. Why can't I get 1 rp a week with almost no work? It's obvious you think I can't so that means I don't understand something.
How about you explain it instead of getting all agitated and saying Im wrong about something I've admitted I'm probably wrong about from the start. If you do not wish to explain it then don't bother replying to me in the first place.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 15:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lady Noir
I don't feel like explaining it, i'm just telling you that you are wrong about how the entire system works, therefore your plan is not going to work, you are welcome to try it though.
Well I just read through the nice research agent guide right on this site. It says pretty simply I need some easy to acquire skills and barely any standing to get a lvl 1 agent that gives me that bare minimum RP/day that I consider to be decent.
So your unwillingness to me seems to just be reluctance to admit the term "decent" is objective and that I can indeed get RP's for little to no work from my point of view.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 17:21:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sorela on 09/01/2007 17:20:45
Originally by: Lady Noir
If you are happy with 5 rp a day and 1 datacore every 100 days then thats fine. You can sell that datacore for about 10 mill, that's a laughable amount of isk to all but a person that's played eve for no more than a week.
90 mil for practically no work you mean. That in itself is hardly laughable for all but a serious money earner if they aren't even playing for a few months. This is all totally ignoring the fact that it's clear with minimal training time the alts can produce far more than 5rp a day and the mains which already have skills can produce even more.
It's not some serious money making scheme no doubt but the fact remains it's probably worth doing for newer players and if they bother to set it up it'll stay setup and continue producing datacores till whoever set it up quit. In contrast I suspect the T2 BPO lottery seemed worthless to a good chunk of people at least.
Originally by: Daos Leghki Sorela, you are just being silly now. If you consider 5 RP a day "decent," good for you.
No I don't consider it decent. The actual number we are discussing is 45 RP a day minimum and I am exagerating to make fun of the fact that they claimed it'd take two months to make an alt that would output "decent" RP. So yes it is purposely silly to contrast such a silly claim.
Like vet's who go around saying you MUST have T2 modules or you just aren't even playing the game.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 17:51:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sorela on 09/01/2007 17:48:38
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
To get multiple researcher you need "Research project management".
Yea I noticed my mistake a little later. It is indeed pretty misleading. As for my actual scenario all 3 of my accounts actually have good standings and despite never being intended for this sort of thing the math looks like I can make a very substantial amount.
My only question really at this point is this formula:
RP/day = (Agent skill level + player skill level)¦ x [(Agent's effective quality/100)+1]
This implies that even with both the player and agent having lvl 5 skill you can only get about 30 rp per agent? You said something about 100 earlier I think. Were you talking per agent or all agents cumulative? Also I assume the bonus of higher level agents comes in the form of them having higher skill level?
Thank you for the info btw.
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.09 21:47:00 -
[13]
The guide says this about the standings:
Quote: While agents with the mission service only require standing in one category, either faction, corporation or personal, to become available to you, research agents require standing in two of those three categories before they are available to you.
That's a little vague but I'm guessing your corporation standing can count for one of the two pre-req's at least? Or perhaps it means you need both good faction standing and good standing with the corporation in question?
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