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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:00:00 -
[151]
 Quote:
Quote:
And the only answer to that (design-wise) is to give bships an insane locking time? I can imagine a bship pilot being dampened ... once he actually can target, the fight is over lol.
You should then start fighting something else than frigates in your battleship, or you can fit it with nothing but sensor boosters, then you won't much problem against frigates since they never have more slots than you do, and can't keep dampeners running longer than your battleship.
With all respect TomB
Do you take our ideas on board? you seem to be more intent on proving your idea is correct, rather than taking a step back and wondering why all this admitted PvP people are up in arms?
You have no idea how much i hope you listen to us on this one mate!
Mercenary | The Azath |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:03:00 -
[152]
Quote:
Quote:
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And the only answer to that (design-wise) is to give bships an insane locking time? I can imagine a bship pilot being dampened ... once he actually can target, the fight is over lol.
You should then start fighting something else than frigates in your battleship, or you can fit it with nothing but sensor boosters, then you won't much problem against frigates since they never have more slots than you do, and can't keep dampeners running longer than your battleship.
I was actually referring to fleet battles in my example....
In a fleet battle, if you are in a battleship, you will of course go for other battleships as they can cause much more harm than cruisers or frigates. The targeting timer will not affect you targeting other battleships much, it will affect you targeting the smaller ships. The numbers on Chaos are not to be taken in to count right now.
"Where is my hat?" |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:09:00 -
[153]
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you have probably all seen movies like Starwars, where battleships are used at long range to tackle battleships or battle cruisers, you don't see them locking targets on frigates and shooting them down with their guns of mass-destruction. The ships that go for the frigates are mostly cruisers and other frigates, battleships of course have defences against smaller ships, and they do as well in our game.
Battleships were intended for battles, for pure power to destroy other ships. They will still be the best at it, but should not be considered as solo/multi-tasking ships, unless you fit your ship for it, which you also can, but will leave your battleship vulnerable in other areas.
I have to disagree with you there mate,
To use Starwars as a comparison like you just did. The Superstar Destroyer for example didnt just break Captial ships it also laced the fighters and frigates with turret fire did it not, and you didnt see one of the bridge crew going "Sorry lord vader we cant get a lock for a quite a while becuase he's in a frigate" lol (sorry couldnt help myself).
The game is supposed to be fun mate and at this rate its very hard to catch some one who doenst want to fight as it is, what your doing is making it so we cant kill anyone period, your being very short sighted, the game doesnt work how you think it does mate sorry but I strongly feel your shooting yourself in the foot here.
Cheers
noob
Starwars was a bad example  but you see smallers ships flying around in that movie, because they are able to survive a little bit longer than they can at the moment in EVE. Frigates are not intended to be able to go at battleships and damage them real good (cruisers might be able to), but they are suposed to be able to be used in fleet battles.
"Where is my hat?" |
Altaka Hiltora
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:10:00 -
[154]
Quote:
You should then start fighting something else than frigates in your battleship
Errr......right, "Excuse me Mr. Enemy, would you mind not to arrive in a frigate, TomB has recommended that I fight ships other than frigates"
Like we can control what our enemy flies? Seriously dude, this is a major step in the wrong direction.
Quote:
Please test this out and leave behind comments and bugs if you find them.
No thanks.
"You have to sometimes make sacrifices for the greater good and not be manipulated by those who have no understanding - brother" |
Gunni
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:10:00 -
[155]
TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
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Gunni
Viziam
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:12:00 -
[156]
Question to angry people:
1. Is the problem currently the time it takes for you to lock on another battleship on Chaos?
If this is your problem, then calm down, this will not have a huge impact on current battleship vs. battleship targeting.
2. Is the problem that it will take longer time to target a frigate than a battleship?
Start using sensor boosters if you only have the guts to hunt ships 2 classes below yours in size.
"Where is my hat?" |
Altaka Hiltora
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:14:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Altaka Hiltora on 02/12/2003 19:25:30
No need for this post - forums are messed up
"You have to sometimes make sacrifices for the greater good and not be manipulated by those who have no understanding - brother" |
Bas Rutten
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:15:00 -
[158]
TomB I wanted to quote your last post but can't since the forums seem fubared ROFL ... anyways, like I said, make frigates harder to hit, not longer to target on them.
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Deny the Urge - brutal Death from Germoney
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:15:00 -
[159]
Quote:
TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
Err...Gunni froma risk analysis standpoint it's risking 40,150,000 worth of investment versus 135,000,000.
40m worth of implants get added to the risk of a 95m isk bship too.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
wamingo
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:16:00 -
[160]
aww, can't handle the truth, eh?
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Bas Rutten
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:18:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Bas Rutten on 02/12/2003 19:19:37
Another one ... TomB, CA is fighting SA bship vs bship on a daily basis ... so much about "not having the guts", that applies for SA as well btw.
But I see some anger in your post ... is it maybe because that "awesome" idea you had is disliked by multiple ppl?
wamingo, read this post and get a clue. Ask SA about it ...
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Deny the Urge - brutal Death from Germoney
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:18:00 -
[162]
Quote:
TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
Gunni: if a newbie friend asks you if he can join you in PvP, would you rather want to say:
a) sure take this frigate and fit it with XXX, but you will most likely die, know that
or
b) learn skills for 2-3 months, get implants for 40 mill isk and get yourself a battleship
Dying is the risk, but would you rather want to learn PvP young in a frigate with an experienced friend and loose almost nothing or would you rather want to be a newbie in a battleship with your 40 mill isk because you had never had any experience with combat before?
"Where is my hat?" |
Bas Rutten
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:24:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Bas Rutten on 02/12/2003 19:26:50
Hmm the word newbie again (can someone say relaunch of Eve?).
Please CCP consider that many ppl in Eve worked for months to be in a battleship. Now you are making em useless - rigging 4 sensor boosters is not really what an efficient bship setup is aye? So everyone and his uncle will rig an insane amount of sensor boosters on their bships and that's about it ... fun fun fun ... why you don't get it is beyond me.
There is more to it ... atm, warfare in Eve is a bit pointless when it comes to control of space right? Okay, make it that bships become more or less waste of isk ... and you won't even be able to wear the enemy down to an extend where he cannot fight properly anymore.
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Deny the Urge - brutal Death from Germoney
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:24:00 -
[164]
My friends had his char in training for 2 months now, 1 month left, im giving him implants and a fully fitted scorp. Then im going to train him up for pvp.
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:25:00 -
[165]
to balance this it has to be number that a B-ship v B-ship lock times are approximately the same as they are now on Tq after this changes... and the mods only affect ships of different sizes.
that will stop SOME of the complaints at least.
-----
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:26:00 -
[166]
It doesnt hurt losing your ship cause you insure it, implants cant be insured.
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:29:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Vegeta on 02/12/2003 19:31:15
Atm my targetting time against any ship is around 7 seconds, i dont mind taking 20 seconds targetting frigates, not at all, but not battleships.
Is there no way you can just change the time it takes to target frigates and cruisers and not effect battleship targetting, or you can boost it by maybe 5 seconds and then remove the invul timer.
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Dirus
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:31:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Dirus on 02/12/2003 19:41:03
TomB, at the moment Eve players are too spread apart, and not enough of them to gather enough big fleets. Too many corps. Alliances kinda gather a lot of players, but usually when someone gathers a 10 ship fleet, everyone else runs and waits for them to split up before taking them on.
i see you envision massive battles, with frigates buzzing around and cruisers/battleships battling it out. thats never gonna happen. the biggest fleet ive ever seen was only 20 ships, and the drop in framerate was enough to think a battle wouldnt be the best idea with so many ships. most PvP fights happen with less that 5 ships in either fleet. those are the groups you need to balance out, not fleets with enough manpower to have a group of each class of ship.
Edit: Well, maybe there are some big fleets, but as you can see, when they actually fight, its written in history books, since its rare.
**********
Everyone deserves to die.
You go first.
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Merdekka Radaen
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:31:00 -
[169]
Quote:
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TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
Gunni: if a newbie friend asks you if he can join you in PvP, would you rather want to say:
a) sure take this frigate and fit it with XXX, but you will most likely die, know that
or
b) learn skills for 2-3 months, get implants for 40 mill isk and get yourself a battleship
Dying is the risk, but would you rather want to learn PvP young in a frigate with an experienced friend and loose almost nothing or would you rather want to be a newbie in a battleship with your 40 mill isk because you had never had any experience with combat before?
So you're telling me because I have implants and already know how to fly a battleship, I shouldn't be flying a frigate? I WANT to fly a frigate, it's fun, I enjoy nipping around in a frigate and would LOVE to be able to use one in combat seriously, but I'm not going to if I think that a volley of FoF missiles is going to blow me out of the sky and turn my pod to toast costing me more than 40 million ISK. I'm just NOT.
I'm sure it would allay A LOT of fears about this change to the pvp crowd if you could say something about how FoF missiles and insta-podding might change to make us think about stepping into smaller ships.
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Gunni
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:33:00 -
[170]
Quote:
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TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
Err...Gunni froma risk analysis standpoint it's risking 40,150,000 worth of investment versus 135,000,000.
40m worth of implants get added to the risk of a 95m isk bship too.
frigate: (punisher)
shield: 250
armor: 300
hull: 250
battleship: (apoc)
shield: 3975
armor: 4800
hull: 4250
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Gunni
Viziam
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:34:00 -
[171]
TomB:
My concern deals with the MWD. Assuming using a frigate with a webifier, because of the faster lock time on larger vessels, the frigate still has to Lock + Webify. While any target equipped with a MWD only has to MWD. And a Rifter with 2 ABs + Injectors is hard pressed to keep up with a battleship equipped with a MWD (which kinda makes webifying impossible). Cruisers are a non-issue. 2 MWDs all but renders it pointless, barring acts of God.
How will the acceleration boost provided by MWDs be affected by the increased lock timers in regards to exiting the range of the webifiers?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
wamingo
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:35:00 -
[172]
No, Arcane, they will (should) rig up a powerful battleship perhaps even without sensor boosters and some friends with frigs and cruisers to level the playing field...
Battleships will never be "useless", they will just need "backup" vs larger numbers of smaller classes... It's simply just plain logics.
And you know it's the damned truth that you're all trying to get the upper hand using the "element on suprise", yeah sure fast "raids" are fair enough, but never doing anything else makes you cowardice and you know it. You hide and run when you see a greater force and often even when you're equals you run.
What was it about a thread recently about two major 40/50+ ship forces that dis-engaged eachother! biomass and who was it I think...
This is how most battle goes about, it is the truth and you know it... Ok are you one of those few who dares a fair fight, that's cool, I did also include that type in my original post in case you missed it, fair enough, but excuse me if I have my doubts.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:36:00 -
[173]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
TomB: no1 is gona want to be in a frigate with 40 mil worth of implants when fighting in fleet battles...
Err...Gunni froma risk analysis standpoint it's risking 40,150,000 worth of investment versus 135,000,000.
40m worth of implants get added to the risk of a 95m isk bship too.
frigate: (punisher)
shield: 250
armor: 300
hull: 250
battleship: (apoc)
shield: 3975
armor: 4800
hull: 4250
And if the apoc can't hit the punisher because the by the time it manages to get a lock, the punisher is orbitting at 5km and is near impossible to hit?
Drones and FoFs are a valid concern at that point. But the Tachyons on the Apoc are not.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:36:00 -
[174]
Quote:
Start using sensor boosters if you only have the guts to hunt ships 2 classes below yours in size.
I use two F-90 sensor boosters and have lvl 4 signature analysis. On Tranq. this gives me roughly 1.8 seconds targetting time. This is just enough to target and destroy an Industrial coming out of warp 28-30 km from a gate in Empire Space.
I shoot at any ship that comes out of warp of course, but since I have to set up for 70+ km optimal range, there is no way to take out anything bigger than a Cruiser before it can jump. Besides, it's the Industrials that are carrying around all the Robotics.
I don't mind giving frigates a targetting advantage, but leave Battleship targetting roughly where it is (ie, 7 seconds base for a Scorpion to target a cruiser/industrial). Otherwise you might aswell make the entire galaxy 1.0 security rating.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Gunni
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:37:00 -
[175]
Quote:
My friends had his char in training for 2 months now, 1 month left, im giving him implants and a fully fitted scorp. Then im going to train him up for pvp.
accepting nubz into the corp is like inviting a thief to stay at your place while u¦re out of town..
the risk getting a spy/thief is to big...
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Gunni
Viziam
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Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:38:00 -
[176]
"Err...Gunni from a risk analysis standpoint it's risking 40,150,000 worth of investment versus 135,000,000."
Though its 40million high risk against 135million low risk.
I don't know what all the whining is all about, I've only ever PvPed in EvE and quite frankly I'm looking forward to this change, as long as some other issues are looked into at the same time, (like insta pod death from missiles), I really REALLY want to fly a frigate around and be useful in combat (not powerful, useful). You have to take into account that cloaking will be coming in relatively soon as well as modules for tracking targets in system so you can find them wherever and warp right to them. Frigates and cruisers will pose no large threat to a bship after these changes, and bship v bship combat will be the same. However Frigates and cruisers will be able to play a bigger role in luring Bships in, at a lesser risk than there is now (hopefully). The problem with current PvP is people escaping ALL the time and that isn't a lock time issue in my opinion, thereÆs the invun timer sure, and the warping to a random location both of which are being dealt with.
What I do propose though (and people will complain about it no doubt) is that your warp drive should need a cool down period say 5 seconds (with no invuntimer) enabling close chases around a system and possibly catching somebody.
Oh and thereÆs that area effect deployable warp scrambler that will be coming in eventually, decent PvPers could have allot of fun with that.
Everyone needs to step back and look at the big picture, devs included and have a look at what needs to come into play at the same moment to make it all click together.
No doubt no one will agree with me though, since you all seem to be happy camping spawn in points and jump gates, (boring). Oh and for lone bships hunting miners, I propose a warp jamming drone that can be sent after a unlocked target, it should be quite a large drone (bigger than a heavy).
But back to lock times. Personally I always thought 2-3 second lock times were a bit fast. Especially bship against frig, I vote this is the right way to go.
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Gunni
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:40:00 -
[177]
Quote:
And if the apoc can't hit the punisher because the by the time it manages to get a lock, the punisher is orbitting at 5km and is near impossible to hit?
Drones and FoFs are a valid concern at that point. But the Tachyons on the Apoc are not.
dunno about u.. but i allways have drones with me.. and 6 heavies will******a frigate ez...
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Gunni
Viziam
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:40:00 -
[178]
Quote:
"Err...Gunni from a risk analysis standpoint it's risking 40,150,000 worth of investment versus 135,000,000."
Though its 40million high risk against 135million low risk.
Never go to Vegas planning to win.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Orestes
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:40:00 -
[179]
Please do your utmost best to keep this thread on-topic and flame-free.
It's important this gets tested well.
Join the IC! |
Saladin
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:53:00 -
[180]
Quote:
sig radius as I understand it is based on signature not size - caldari ships have the most electronic equipment aboard and output more signature because of it - the scorpion of course being a flying super-computer :P
minmater are supposed to be the worlds foremost mechanical engineers - thus there ships use mechanical tech instead of electronic tech = lower signatures
If caldari ships are flying super computers that have a huge electronic signature, why is it they have the lowest scanning resolution? What is wrong with this picture. The Raven has a scanning resolution of 80, compared to the slasher's 1000!!!
If the ship is high tech and a 'flying supercomputer' then it should at least have a high scanning resolution to go with its high signature radius. Instead its nerfed two ways, it has the highest signature radius combined with the lowest scanning resolution.
What prompted this change? Frigates and cruisers already have smaller lock times than battleships. Why are increasing lock times again??
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(c) Copyright Saladin, 2005.
Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003. |
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