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Too much EWAR in the game?

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Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 23	Posted - 2015.11.17 02:29:23 - [1] - Quote Over the years of playing eve I guess one part of the game that not only fills me with satisfaction when things go to plan but it also irritates the hell out of me, is there too much EWAR in the game? I get that warp disruptors / scramblers and webifiers are to tie a ship down and this makes players think more about their decision to engage but personally that's the problem right there, it's made the game dull and boring because everyone has become very risk averse and will only engage in content when they are in a massive blob, why does a target need to be "locked down" . Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. I don't know about the majority of the people who play this game but the majority of the people i play with are all in agreement that there is too much EWAR in the game and this prevents people from "flirting" with battle and decide to play it safe. I've been playing the game a long time and the things that once made the game fun have all been labelled with the "overpowered" title and seen the hammer come down them. I'm not saying that the result was less interesting but I think over the years this has pushed eve down a path that means the only content to have forces people into the the 10-1 outnumber fleets. Anyway it's not a rant i'm genuinely interested to find out what the player base things of EWAR. I wish they'd redesign the hole thing to make EWAR more a active managed task then just turning on a module.
AtramLolipop Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2015.11.17 02:44:04 - [2] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Over the years of playing eve I guess one part of the game that not only fills me with satisfaction when things go to plan but it also irritates the hell out of me, is there too much EWAR in the game? I get that warp disruptors / scramblers and webifiers are to tie a ship down and this makes players think more about their decision to engage but personally that's the problem right there, it's made the game dull and boring because everyone has become very risk averse and will only engage in content when they are in a massive blob, why does a target need to be "locked down" . Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. I don't know about the majority of the people who play this game but the majority of the people i play with are all in agreement that there is too much EWAR in the game and this prevents people from "flirting" with battle and decide to play it safe. I've been playing the game a long time and the things that once made the game fun have all been labelled with the "overpowered" title and seen the hammer come down them. I'm not saying that the result was less interesting but I think over the years this has pushed eve down a path that means the only content to have forces people into the the 10-1 outnumber fleets. Anyway it's not a rant i'm genuinely interested to find out what the player base things of EWAR. I wish they'd redesign the hole thing to make EWAR more a active managed task then just turning on a module. I'd like to see EWAR modules move to a reactivated timer. Not all modules but perhaps jams, webs and neuts. 5 seconds on 5 seconds off type thing. Perhaps also include having a penalty to the amount of disruptors on a ship has the averse affect to combat the blobs. I know from my own mentality there are many decisions now a person needs to compute to "have fun" and for a game it's making it very complicated and hard to enjoy.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40833	Posted - 2015.11.17 02:53:36 - [3] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: ...is there too much EWAR in the game? Not in my opinion. Some of it could really use a good balance pass (eg. jams), but overall the ewar adds to the variety and depth of the game and provides an advantage to knowledgeable pilots, which is ideal. Just my 0.02 of course. Quote: ...because everyone has become very risk averse and will only engage in content when they are in a massive blob, why does a target need to be "locked down" . Not in my experience and targets need to be locked down: 1. so they can't just disengage 2. so that they can be slowed to control range 3. so they can be slowed to allow weapons to apply effectively The variety that scrams, disruptors, MWD, AB, webs, etc. provide make fitting important and give multiple choices to how to approach a combat situation. I only see positives in the variety as it means combat is way more than just one fit, press F1. Quote: Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. 15 v 1 sounds like you need more friends. That's an unfortunate situation we all find ourselves in occasionally and no amount of gtfo ability of your ship is going to have much hope except jumping a gate or docking against opponents where they are all engaged. But, having your own equivalent fleet evens things up considerably. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 326	Posted - 2015.11.17 03:06:09 - [4] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: ..... how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s.... If you're held down by 15 points and 15 webs, you have far more serious problems than any balance issues with EWAR. FYI: Jams can also be used DEFENSIVELY. I regularly fly a Kitsune in a small gang. The other day, our Sleipner pilot got himself tackled on a gate. I warped back to that gate at range, jammed the tackler and we both got out. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 131	Posted - 2015.11.17 07:14:41 - [5] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40839	Posted - 2015.11.17 07:18:42 - [6] - Quote Netan MalDoran wrote: Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? Well tbh, d-scanning does have its limits. He'd be better off doing the E-Uni course in 'How to Blob". Then he'd be the 15 and not the 1. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 131	Posted - 2015.11.17 07:20:25 - [7] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Netan MalDoran wrote: Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? Well tbh, d-scanning does have its limits. He'd be better off doing the E-Uni course in 'How to Blob". Then he'd be the 15 and not the 1. Still, I solo PvP in FW all the time and I now very rarely get blobbed, even gate camps aren't a worry. "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40839	Posted - 2015.11.17 07:26:50 - [8] - Quote Netan MalDoran wrote: Still, I solo PvP in FW all the time and I now very rarely get blobbed, even gate camps aren't a worry. Yes, I agree with you. It's relatively easy to find solo and small gang fights at the moment. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 278	Posted - 2015.11.17 07:34:04 - [9] - Quote There is too much awar and it's about to get even worst. Been around since the beginning.
Yockerbow Aliastra Gallente Federation 52	Posted - 2015.11.17 08:15:21 - [10] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: (words) it's made the game dull and boring because everyone has become very risk averse and will only engage in content when they are in a massive blob, why does a target need to be "locked down" . Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. (words) Holy crap, you went straight from griping about people being risk averse to griping about not being able to run away whenever you want. I'm impressed.
Deimos UK Fat Dragon Mining Co. Darwinism. 31	Posted - 2015.11.17 08:32:59 - [11] - Quote How strange I was thinking about this only yesterday. I am by no means a "vet" player but I do agree EWAR takes the fun out of combat. I was happily fitting my Vindicator when I thought to myself, this will never even get used. So I immediately sold it. Reason (in my mind at least) being that I knew for a definitive fact anyone who engaged me would just pin me down (using EWAR) and orbit at range or just jam me. No way in hell would I have the dream 1v1 fair fight. Unfortunately I am learning that PvP in Eve is actually GvP (gang). This sentiment is echoed by the numerous friends I had who played Evebut quit: "You spend months training g up racial gunnery skills believing you will have Babylon 5 style battles. What actually happens, is your ship is sat immobile while you casually watch your cap and HP dwindle without fight". My nieve noob thoughts on the subject; evolve Eve to the point where you can target specific subsystems. Ie target propulsion - propulsion the. Takes damage similar to overheating modules. This would also incur a skill based piloting system, both defensive and offensive as the propulsion would be at the rear of the ship. Just an idea and probably one I will get flamed for.
Switch Savage The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 216	Posted - 2015.11.17 10:23:17 - [12] - Quote Deimos UK wrote: How strange I was thinking about this only yesterday. I am by no means a "vet" player but I do agree EWAR takes the fun out of combat. I was happily fitting my Vindicator when I thought to myself, this will never even get used. So I immediately sold it. Reason (in my mind at least) being that I knew for a definitive fact anyone who engaged me would just pin me down (using EWAR) and orbit at range or just jam me. No way in hell would I have the dream 1v1 fair fight. Unfortunately I am learning that PvP in Eve is actually GvP (gang). This sentiment is echoed by the numerous friends I had who played Evebut quit: "You spend months training g up racial gunnery skills believing you will have Babylon 5 style battles. What actually happens, is your ship is sat immobile while you casually watch your cap and HP dwindle without fight". My nieve noob thoughts on the subject; evolve Eve to the point where you can target specific subsystems. Ie target propulsion - propulsion the. Takes damage similar to overheating modules. This would also incur a skill based piloting system, both defensive and offensive as the propulsion would be at the rear of the ship. Just an idea and probably one I will get flamed for. This is the wrong attitude. Solo vs gangs is out there and happening as we speak, you have to pick your targets wisely, expect to get blobbed, relish in the highs of victory and prepare yourself for defeats. There is nothing and i mean nothing quite like jumping into a 15 man gang and tearing the ground from beneath them.
Divine Entervention Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 789	Posted - 2015.11.17 10:51:18 - [13] - Quote Nice, maybe we'll start seeing reliance on electronic superiority modules.
Dagnar School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 2	Posted - 2015.11.17 10:54:53 - [14] - Quote Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back.
Divine Entervention Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 789	Posted - 2015.11.17 11:03:11 - [15] - Quote Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. yea, i guess that person who's getting jammed should've bought a module to increase his sensor strength. I mean like, since the players themselves have the ability to augment their susceptibility to jams yet choose not to, might as well ask CCP to remove jamming all together to save us from having to make a choice.
Gillia Winddancer Aliastra Gallente Federation 453	Posted - 2015.11.17 13:11:17 - [16] - Quote Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. I still say that ECM should be made into a constant effect like all other ewar modules and be based on sensor strength/resolution versus signature radius. This would essentially turn ECM into a ewar type that is used in order to hide smaller ships from (mainly) bigger targets. It would also require multiple ECM's on a target in order to achieve the same effect ECM has today - that is not being able to lock anything at all - a fair tradeoff for removing the chance based system and making it into a constant effect if you ask me. This would solve so many problems with ECM because, let's be honest. It is the randomness combined with the binary no effect to complete helplessness which pisses people off. If the complete helplessness is the result of effort instead of random luck then no one will have anything to complain about. You tend to be screwed if you have 10 damps or 10 painters on you and people accept this after all.
AtramLolipop Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:13:42 - [17] - Quote Yockerbow wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: (words) it's made the game dull and boring because everyone has become very risk averse and will only engage in content when they are in a massive blob, why does a target need to be "locked down" . Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. (words) Holy crap, you went straight from griping about people being risk averse to griping about not being able to run away whenever you want. I'm impressed. I don't think OP did, we all know the situation when it comes to engaging and finding out there is a 20 man blob coming for you there is a difference and I wouldn't call your "not being able to run away" being risk averse.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 9140	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:32:03 - [18] - Quote Because of Falcon Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m! Bumble's Space Log
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:46:07 - [19] - Quote I mostly play solo (and/or with alts) and run into Ewar quite often, it can be REALLY annoying. Then again, I use Ewar myself and as I'm not a hypocrite that means that if I'm fine with using it I'm also fine with it being used against me. On top of that I see no problems in some zero tactics, headfirst small group/fleet full of "dps ships" to be completely and utterly destroyed by a way more tactical mix of both dps and Ewar. Having said that, there IS an issue with "20 Celestis/Blackbirds lol" (can you tell I never do large clown fleets? :P) and honestly I see no real way to change that without completely neutering Ewar as a whole.
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.11.17 14:54:15 - [20] - Quote Too much EWAR specifically Jams. Too easy for a 500k ship to sit jamming a 500m boat, to make it worse 500k x 25 jams just makes it pointless. Ewar should be stacked the same way rigs have. EWAR should be Frigate size, bc size and bs size.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 15:04:00 - [21] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. Which is the fault of the guy with the 3 bil ship that didn't properly prepare for the eventuality of 5 mil tackle ships. Smart Bombs, ECCM, ECM drones, Energy Neutralizers, Target lock breakers on Battleships and MJDs on battleships and BCs, MWD cloak trick in low sec (or high sec if you are war decced). My Ratting Machariel got tied down by a Ceptor that lit a cyno a few weeks ago while I was running Sanctums. He ate a large neut and an ecm burst from my ratting mach and then met my ecm drones and autocannons. He managed to drop 4 BLOPs before he died, but I was in a fleet, i overheated my tank, my buddies (in their ratting/Rescue Domis and Ravens) landed and chased them off. Wish one of us had a point, we would have killed a blops lol. TL;DR there isn't too much EWAR in the game, there is too much excuse making by people who can't be arsed to prepare themselves to survive the "always on" pvp nature of this game. On a side note, i really hate it when people "ask a question" when it's really an opinion. The OP isn't asking if there is too much EWAR in the game, he's telling us there is.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 466	Posted - 2015.11.17 15:25:03 - [22] - Quote Gillia Winddancer wrote: Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. (snip) It would also require multiple ECM's on a target in order to achieve the same effect ECM has today - that is not being able to lock anything at all - a fair tradeoff for removing the chance based system and making it into a constant effect if you ask me. (snip) I would rather have a boost to remote ECCM as a hard counter to ECM. Since there are several dedicated ECM ships, why not have dedicated ECCM ships too ? Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Doc J Assisted Homicide 18	Posted - 2015.11.17 15:34:25 - [23] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. Which is the fault of the guy with the 3 bil ship that didn't properly prepare for the eventuality of 5 mil tackle ships. Smart Bombs, ECCM, ECM drones, Energy Neutralizers, Target lock breakers on Battleships and MJDs on battleships and BCs, MWD cloak trick in low sec (or high sec if you are war decced). My Ratting Machariel got tied down by a Ceptor that lit a cyno a few weeks ago while I was running Sanctums. He ate a large neut and an ecm burst from my ratting mach and then met my ecm drones and autocannons. He managed to drop 4 BLOPs before he died, but I was in a fleet, i overheated my tank, my buddies (in their ratting/Rescue Domis and Ravens) landed and chased them off. Wish one of us had a point, we would have killed a blops lol. TL;DR there isn't too much EWAR in the game, there is too much excuse making by people who can't be arsed to prepare themselves to survive the "always on" pvp nature of this game. On a side note, i really hate it when people "ask a question" when it's really an opinion. The OP isn't asking if there is too much EWAR in the game, he's telling us there is. Strong coming from a blob alliance.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 15:36:28 - [24] - Quote Doc J wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Part of choosing to fight should also be the ability to flee but how can you do such a thing when you have 15 points stopping you and 15 webs making you go 0.4 km/s. Add jammers and a 5m ship can prevent a 3bil ship from even being able to fight back or get out. Which is the fault of the guy with the 3 bil ship that didn't properly prepare for the eventuality of 5 mil tackle ships. Smart Bombs, ECCM, ECM drones, Energy Neutralizers, Target lock breakers on Battleships and MJDs on battleships and BCs, MWD cloak trick in low sec (or high sec if you are war decced). My Ratting Machariel got tied down by a Ceptor that lit a cyno a few weeks ago while I was running Sanctums. He ate a large neut and an ecm burst from my ratting mach and then met my ecm drones and autocannons. He managed to drop 4 BLOPs before he died, but I was in a fleet, i overheated my tank, my buddies (in their ratting/Rescue Domis and Ravens) landed and chased them off. Wish one of us had a point, we would have killed a blops lol. TL;DR there isn't too much EWAR in the game, there is too much excuse making by people who can't be arsed to prepare themselves to survive the "always on" pvp nature of this game. On a side note, i really hate it when people "ask a question" when it's really an opinion. The OP isn't asking if there is too much EWAR in the game, he's telling us there is. Strong coming from a blob alliance. I am not an alliance.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:06:11 - [25] - Quote Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there?
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:12:07 - [26] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there? What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about an OP that complains about EWAR (while most likely not using the myriad tools the game provides to negate the affect of EWAR), not what alliance my corp is in. I imagine this is what happens to every poster who happens to be in Goons, and i can see why it's annoying.\ My posts and opinions are mine, that have nothing whatsoever to do with my Alliance.
Valacus Streets of Fire 14	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:40:55 - [27] - Quote Jams may need more balancing, but tackle EWAR is a necessity. It's not like there isn't enough kiting in EVE Online as it is. Remove or nerf webs and scrams and it will be kiting online all day, every day. Now instead of getting blobbed, you just get run around the field by Orthrus's and Cynabals who always warp away whenever they get anywhere near danger and have nothing to fear from slower ships, even those supported by tacklers. That does not sound like an improvement. "Blobbing" is a part of every MMO. Numbers provide safety. You can't change that and you shouldn't try to. Massive fleet fights are a staple of the game.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 16:44:26 - [28] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there? What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about an OP that complains about EWAR (while most likely not using the myriad tools the game provides to negate the affect of EWAR), not what alliance my corp is in. I imagine this is what happens to every poster who happens to be in Goons, and i can see why it's annoying.\ My posts and opinions are mine, that have nothing whatsoever to do with my Alliance. With the ongoing discussion not much at all. But this whole "yeah well, I don't at all affiliate myself with the people I choose to be with" is just hilarious nonsense. Otherwise I could be part of the K K K but when confronted with it go "yes well, I don't actually agree with what they're doing, you see". It's just as silly.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:03:21 - [29] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there? What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about an OP that complains about EWAR (while most likely not using the myriad tools the game provides to negate the affect of EWAR), not what alliance my corp is in. I imagine this is what happens to every poster who happens to be in Goons, and i can see why it's annoying.\ My posts and opinions are mine, that have nothing whatsoever to do with my Alliance. Jenn as i user of EWAR I
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:03:34 - [30] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there? What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about an OP that complains about EWAR (while most likely not using the myriad tools the game provides to negate the affect of EWAR), not what alliance my corp is in. I imagine this is what happens to every poster who happens to be in Goons, and i can see why it's annoying.\ My posts and opinions are mine, that have nothing whatsoever to do with my Alliance. With the ongoing discussion not much at all. But this whole "yeah well, I don't at all affiliate myself with the people I choose to be with" is just hilarious nonsense. Otherwise I could be part of the K K K but when confronted with it go "yes well, I don't actually agree with what they're doing, you see". It's just as silly. I never said anyhting about agreeing or not agreeing, I said i am not my alliance. If people in my alliance are doing something in violation of the EULA, then i disagree. If what they are doing is legal within the rules of the game, then I don't care. The irrational prejudice against "blobbers" usualyl comes from overly egotistical solo/small gang players who think they are special, and I'm saying that you can't judge me based on your own irrational prejudices. If you have a problem with my opinion, address my opinion. Hiding behind that "look at what imaginary space group you are in" is beyond stupid.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:05:37 - [31] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Honestly, if you're part of a group you obviously agree to that group's mentality, capabilities and actions. Otherwise why be there? What does that have to do with anything? We are talking about an OP that complains about EWAR (while most likely not using the myriad tools the game provides to negate the affect of EWAR), not what alliance my corp is in. I imagine this is what happens to every poster who happens to be in Goons, and i can see why it's annoying.\ My posts and opinions are mine, that have nothing whatsoever to do with my Alliance. With the ongoing discussion not much at all. But this whole "yeah well, I don't at all affiliate myself with the people I choose to be with" is just hilarious nonsense. Otherwise I could be part of the K K K but when confronted with it go "yes well, I don't actually agree with what they're doing, you see". It's just as silly. I never said anyhting about agreeing or not agreeing, I said i am not my alliance. If people in my alliance are doing something in violation of the EULA, then i disagree. If what they are doing is legal within the rules of the game, then I don't care. The irrational prejudice against "blobbers" usualyl comes from overly egotistical solo/small gang players who think they are special, and I'm saying that you can't judge me based on your own irrational prejudices. If you have a problem with my opinion, address my opinion. Hiding behind that "look at what imaginary space group you are in" is beyond stupid. So then, why do you choose to be in said group if you don't largely agree with their ideas/methods/actions?
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:08:58 - [32] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: So then, why do you choose to be in said group if you don't largely agree with their ideas/methods/actions? Who said I didn't agree?
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 761	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:16:10 - [33] - Quote Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:20:29 - [34] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: So then, why do you choose to be in said group if you don't largely agree with their ideas/methods/actions? Who said I didn't agree? You did, by implying that you don't necessarily condone or agree to what your alliance does. That's my point, I'm not for or against you or TEST for that matter (other than not agreeing to what/how they do stuff and thus aren't part of them). I'm simply pointing out the very obvious flaw in your initial "yeah well I'm not TEST" reply :)
Daerrol Death By Design Did he say Jump 264	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:22:05 - [35] - Quote ll Kuray ll wrote: Too much EWAR specifically Jams. Too easy for a 500k ship to sit jamming a 500m boat, to make it worse 500k x 25 jams just makes it pointless. Ewar should be stacked the same way rigs have. EWAR should be small, medium, large. Neuts and Nos are but none of the other EWAR is. I like the idea of making EWAR modules restricted to the specific ship class. Small EWAR modules can not be used on larger ship sizes, of course there are the specific role bonused ships that would be exempt from this. It just means more thought goes into fleet setups instead of making every man and his dog wear a web, disruptor, jam, nos etc. Set drones to defensve. Watch the griffon die in a fire or warp out. Why does your 500m ship not have drones? Also who flies 500m ships? That's like a Bhaalgorn or something, and my bhaal has over 100 sensor strength... Edit: This post angers me. more incoming. U mad bro? Oh yeah i'm mad.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:27:01 - [36] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: So then, why do you choose to be in said group if you don't largely agree with their ideas/methods/actions? Who said I didn't agree? You did, by implying that you don't necessarily condone or agree to what your alliance does. That's my point, I'm not for or against you or TEST for that matter (other than not agreeing to what/how they do stuff and thus aren't part of them). I'm simply pointing out the very obvious flaw in your initial "yeah well I'm not TEST" reply :) I get it, you think I'm you or something. I am a member of a corp that has my friends in it. That corp is a member of an Alliance. To my knowledge that Alliance isn't doing anything illegal (ie against the EULA) which is why i stay in my corp with my friends. If that Alliance was doing something wrong, I'd ask my friends to take the corp out of it, if they didn't, i'd leave and go play with some other friends somewhere. You seem to be applying to me whatever criteria you use for doing something. I am not you, nor am I an Alliance. Tell me what TEST is doing that is so bad that I must be held responsible for it (despite being a member of one it's it's corps for a few months) in some kind of collective fashion?
Calanthas Ninja Pixels 1	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:40:48 - [37] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Netan MalDoran wrote: Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? He'd be better off doing the E-Uni course in 'How to Blob". Then he'd be the 15 and not the 1. Or he may need to start with watching local.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:53:19 - [38] - Quote It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 17:58:15 - [39] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about. I didn't distance myself from anything. I made a statement of fact ("I am not an Alliance") against a nonsense allegation (something to do with blobs that has nothing to do with EWAR). So, what are you on about, or are you just trolling right now, because you aren't making any sense. What is TEST doing wrong that I should distance myself from it?
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:03:17 - [40] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: People who have a spine and aren't lying to themselves (or others) will refuse to be with a group if they don't largely agree to how that group operates. That's why I left INIT back when STK was still a part of it, because it was full of annoying egocentric clowns who thought they were really good but in reality just sucked and lacked any sort of teamwork. I didn't have the power to change that nor the will to endure it so I left. It's really as simple as that. Just mentioned as an example btw, nothing more. Like I said. I am not you. Stop applying your personal standards to other people. I don't make judgements about whatever alliance I am in like you do. I'm sure my alliance is full of clowns too (i once made the mistake of entering "the Bacon Bar" lol), as long as they aren't doing anything illegal that I can see, they are free to act as they will. I left STK and INIT Mercs not because I disliked anything about INIT, but to go play with some former STK friends who were still active, such as the ones who are with me in TEST right now, that's all. Can't say it enough, I'm not you.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:04:18 - [41] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about. I didn't distance myself from anything. I made a statement of fact ("I am not an Alliance") against a nonsense allegation (something to do with blobs that has nothing to do with EWAR). So, what are you on about, or are you just trolling right now, because you aren't making any sense. What is TEST doing wrong that I should distance myself from it? Nothing, as stated I'm not talking about this or any specific situation. I'm merely commenting on the statement that you distance yourself from what the alliance you choose to be with does. Not saying Doc's remark made any sense.
AtramLolipop Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:15:59 - [42] - Quote Daerrol wrote: ll Kuray ll wrote: Too much EWAR specifically Jams. Too easy for a 500k ship to sit jamming a 500m boat, to make it worse 500k x 25 jams just makes it pointless. Ewar should be stacked the same way rigs have. EWAR should be small, medium, large. Neuts and Nos are but none of the other EWAR is. I like the idea of making EWAR modules restricted to the specific ship class. Small EWAR modules can not be used on larger ship sizes, of course there are the specific role bonused ships that would be exempt from this. It just means more thought goes into fleet setups instead of making every man and his dog wear a web, disruptor, jam, nos etc. Set drones to defensve. Watch the griffon die in a fire or warp out. Why does your 500m ship not have drones? Also who flies 500m ships? That's like a Bhaalgorn or something, and my bhaal has over 100 sensor strength... Edit: This post angers me. more incoming. U mad bro? Oh yeah i'm mad. Ok so a Griffon kitted out with Jams (1 of each racial) and 2 Signal Amps II, all level 5 Radar Jam Strength: 18.84 (total) Phantasm Sensor Strength: 24 (total) This is assuming all skills at 5. RADAR compensation is like a x2 skill, if it bothers you so much train it. Even at compensation 4 the phantasm is not jammed 100% of the time. As you can see though, with NO defensive modules. So beyond the fact the griffon can't fight your drones if its life depended on it, as it has zero tank and only 2 unbonused guns + 1 drone to fight back, it still won't 100% jam you. I assumed the griffon had a propulsion module. If it doesn't have your 500k frigate go and shoot it. Pro Tip: Fly the same racial sensor strength to negate 3/4s the griffons ecm power. Edit 2: A phantasm still isn't a 500m Ship even with some bling on there. When you wake up to the fact that not everyone wants to play the game in a group because there is something more satisfying about playing the game and achieving things on your own you might understand what you have written is ridiculous. There are ships that cost way more than 500m and don't carry drones, Your argument about sensor strength is also stupid when the hole mechanic is based on chance. Hell you could fly a Falcon right at me and not land a single jam. A huge piece of the game that is missing is survivability and all these statements about watching local and D-scan are so ridiculous because the people writing them know you could do the best job in the world and still not be survive. Lots of people have already mentioned the game is about numbers but i also think it's about being in control and not just about clicking on a module and watching it cycle. There is no cost to jams, webs disruptors, scrambs, TP, like there is to neuts and noses and that is why Ewar needs looking at. Eventually i'd like to play a game where it is possible to defend yourself against a surprise blob through clever piloting. At the moment we are sat repeating the same process for every encounter making the game dull and boring.
Doc J Assisted Homicide 18	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:24:12 - [43] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about. I didn't distance myself from anything. I made a statement of fact ("I am not an Alliance") against a nonsense allegation (something to do with blobs that has nothing to do with EWAR). So, what are you on about, or are you just trolling right now, because you aren't making any sense. What is TEST doing wrong that I should distance myself from it? Nothing, as stated I'm not talking about this or any specific situation. I'm merely commenting on the statement that you distance yourself from what the alliance you choose to be with does. Not saying Doc's remark made any sense. Merely connecting the points of view.
Valacus Streets of Fire 14	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:49:39 - [44] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:50:59 - [45] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about. I didn't distance myself from anything. I made a statement of fact ("I am not an Alliance") against a nonsense allegation (something to do with blobs that has nothing to do with EWAR). So, what are you on about, or are you just trolling right now, because you aren't making any sense. What is TEST doing wrong that I should distance myself from it? Nothing, as stated I'm not talking about this or any specific situation. I'm merely commenting on the statement that you distance yourself from what the alliance you choose to be with does. Not saying Doc's remark made any sense. I've explained to you why you are incorrect. I did not distance myself from my alliance. You read into my statement something that does not exist, then refuse to understand even after I clarified it for you. Lets recap. I posted ways to negate the kinds of EWAR the OP is complaining about. Someone then posted something about blobs and suggested that my membership in an alliance that does this is somehow the reason for my opinion. This was not true, my opinion is my own, not that of the group I'm in, and it has nothing to do with benefiting from being in an alliance that 'blobs. I don't think in such collectivist terms. I am an individual, and an individualist, every comment I make is from that point of view. I did not 'distance' my self from TEST, and would not do so unless TEST was doing something really wrong. "I'm not an alliance" is plain English, it means exactly what it said. Where you got that i didn't like what my alliance was doing or some such is impossible for me to understand. I hope that clears it up, but if it doesn't I'm sorry. Your take on the exchange was incorrect Gregor.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 317	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:51:37 - [46] - Quote Gillia Winddancer wrote: Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. Agreed. Particularly ECM drones, it is so cheap when you get jammed out by a flight of ECM drones (and despite the low jam strength they are strangely reliable in jamming anything BC and below). If you are interested in a better method for implementing ECM whilst keeping it fairly similar to how it currently fuctions then I have a proposal linked in my signature which would fix the issue. Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading
Paranoid Loyd 7480	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:56:41 - [47] - Quote Gregor, not sure if you are just trolling Jen or what but you are looking pretty dumb which is not your MO. I don't see any distancing himself from the alliance. I simply see him stating he does not speak for the alliance, he speaks for himself. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 18:56:57 - [48] - Quote Doc J wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: It's not about being against the EULA or bad (but was a good try to change the subject a bit :P), it's about distancing yourself, in words anyway, from what the group you choose to be with is all about. I didn't distance myself from anything. I made a statement of fact ("I am not an Alliance") against a nonsense allegation (something to do with blobs that has nothing to do with EWAR). So, what are you on about, or are you just trolling right now, because you aren't making any sense. What is TEST doing wrong that I should distance myself from it? Nothing, as stated I'm not talking about this or any specific situation. I'm merely commenting on the statement that you distance yourself from what the alliance you choose to be with does. Not saying Doc's remark made any sense. Merely connecting the points of view. What you were doing was trying to invalidate my comment by pointing to something that has nothing to do with anything. EWAR (in this case points and webs) are working as intended, and there are planty of ways to negate the advantages they offer. Rather than use those advantages, some people would rather complain about them, and imo that's the wrong way to look at it. As we know from years of posting on this forum, some peoples idea of balanced vs unbalanced is "did it kill me? yes = unbalanced, no = balanced". Points and scrams are nessacary evils, space combat isn't liek Star Trek . After playing EVE for so many years I can't watch a Star Trek battle, I always end up thinking "damn, why don't they just warp off, no one has a point on them" lol. As an Aside, isn't it always strange how the FIRST thing to go in every Star Trek fight is the damn warp engines? Put some armor on the damn things already Kirk/Picard/Sisko whoever.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:10:26 - [49] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Gregor, not sure if you are just trolling Jen or what but you are looking pretty dumb which is not your MO. I don't see any distancing himself from the alliance. I simply see him stating he does not speak for the alliance, he speaks for himself. I don't troll, I might (in jest) poke a few holes but that is not the same thing. The statement I reacted to (again, regardless of the validity of Doc's remark) was a clear and obvious "just because I'm with a group doesn't mean I agree to what they do nor should you perceive me as being one of them" which is, in and of itself, a silly statement for various reasons. What makes it funny is the reason for being in that alliance, the rather casual distancing from it and, afterwards, the denial of it all. But that's perhaps not for everyone to notice :) Anyway, lets drop the silliness and get back on topic.
Paranoid Loyd 7480	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:19:24 - [50] - Quote Nah it wasn't clear or obvious, all I see is you overreacted with your comment, it was not valid and now you are just trying to save face, but as you said it's all silly. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:21:14 - [51] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Gregor, not sure if you are just trolling Jen or what but you are looking pretty dumb which is not your MO. I don't see any distancing himself from the alliance. I simply see him stating he does not speak for the alliance, he speaks for himself. I don't troll, I might (in jest) poke a few holes but that is not the same thing. The statement I reacted to (again, regardless of the validity of Doc's remark) was a clear and obvious "just because I'm with a group doesn't mean I agree to what they do nor should you perceive me as being one of them" which is, in and of itself, a silly statement for various reasons. What makes it funny is the reason for being in that alliance, the rather casual distancing from it and, afterwards, the denial of it all. But that's perhaps not for everyone to notice :) Anyway, lets drop the silliness and get back on topic. You have a very limited way of looking at things, and no ability to admit that you were wrong. Quote: "just because I'm with a group doesn't mean I agree to what they do nor should you perceive me as being one of them" This is not what I said, I don't understand why you don't understand. Let me ask you this, is English your 1st language, maybe that's the problem?
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1648	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:38:37 - [52] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Nah it wasn't clear or obvious. It is, but as said perhaps not everyone will see that.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12948	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:41:21 - [53] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Nah it wasn't clear or obvious. It is, but as said perhaps not everyone will see that. You have issues friend.
Valacus Streets of Fire 14	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:45:08 - [54] - Quote I like how there's actual conversation on the topic at hand going on in the background of two salties screaming at one another while ignoring everyone else in the thread.
Divine Entervention Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 789	Posted - 2015.11.17 19:47:54 - [55] - Quote My favorite part is how ewar is fine, if anything it's underpowered, yet there are dudes crying about it. get good scrubs. learn 2 adapt
Murauke Assisted Homicide 15	Posted - 2015.11.17 22:15:13 - [56] - Quote ll Kuray ll wrote: EWAR should be small, medium, large. Neuts and Nos are but none of the other EWAR is. I like the idea of making EWAR modules restricted to the specific ship class. Small EWAR modules can not be used on larger ship sizes, of course there are the specific role bonused ships that would be exempt from this. It just means more thought goes into fleet setups instead of making every man and his dog wear a web, disruptor, jam, nos etc. This..
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2015.11.17 23:17:24 - [57] - Quote Daerrol wrote: Ok so a Griffon kitted out with Jams (1 of each racial) and 2 Signal Amps II, all level 5 Radar Jam Strength: 18.84 (total) j00 gieb 18.84 jam strength Griffin? Your maths a little out mate. I'm not sure you can get that much jam strength in a Falcon with full info links. Maybe, I'll have to check, but it's flat out impossible for a Griffin. I've got Signal Dispersion V and I cap out at around 10 points cold in a Griffin and 11.2 cold/12.9 points heated in a Kitsune (although my Kitty uses a damage control). Around 15 points of Jam Strength is the cap for a Falcon IIRC (I can't fly one yet). The tradeoff is a paper thin tank. And I mean PAPER THIN. I get forced off-field by a flight of light drones (2 volleys will do me). A Confessor can kill me with two shots, an Orthrus with a single volley. My Kitty's 'tank' is RANGE and whatever bookmarks I can make in the heat of combat to give me bounce points and positioning options. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 467	Posted - 2015.11.18 00:05:41 - [58] - Quote Valacus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. I disagree. - You can still warp out unless you're scrammed (most ECM ships are flown at long ranges because they are squishy targets.You'll rarely see tackle ECM ships.) - being sensor damped to a point where you're unable to lock targets that are beyond your range is not that much dissimilar to being jammed (depending on what ship you're flying) - Some weapons are unaffected by jams: F.o.F. missiles, deployed and agressing drones, smartbombs, ECCM. - ECM has a chance to fail, giving you a window of opportunity which other ewar modules don't. Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2015.11.18 00:21:28 - [59] - Quote Jill Xelitras wrote: - You can still warp out unless you're scrammed (most ECM ships are flown at long ranges because they are squishy targets.You'll rarely see tackle ECM ships.) Just FYI: The upcoming Navy Griffin is designed as an ECM Brawler, most likely with tackle. However, they will still be very squishy and one failed jam will see them splatted. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Valacus Streets of Fire 18	Posted - 2015.11.18 00:43:52 - [60] - Quote Jill Xelitras wrote: Valacus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. I disagree. - You can still warp out unless you're scrammed (most ECM ships are flown at long ranges because they are squishy targets.You'll rarely see tackle ECM ships.) - being sensor damped to a point where you're unable to lock targets that are beyond your range is not that much dissimilar to being jammed (depending on what ship you're flying) - Some weapons are unaffected by jams: F.o.F. missiles, deployed and agressing drones, smartbombs, ECCM. - ECM has a chance to fail, giving you a window of opportunity which other ewar modules don't. "You can still warp out" is not an argument. You can still warp out if you aren't jammed. That means nothing. Being sensor damped only applies if you are outranged, but that's a specific scenario. At close range, no amount of sensor damps are going to keep you from locking. Again, you can also apply all of your other modules. You can still lock things close, including fleet mates who might need repping. Jamming leaves no such opening. FoF missiles are unaffected by jamming, but they also don't allow you to choose your target. They also only work if you're flying a missile boat. Well, not all ships use missiles. You're rolling the dice when you use them. Same with aggressive drones. They go for the first thing that aggroes you, which may not be the ship jamming you. Yes, ECM has a chance to fail, but that doesn't balance it. It is still, hands down, the most dangerous EWAR in the game. It is on a completely different level than all other EWAR. It turns a ship it lands on ineffective regardless of range, tracking, or sensor resolution. One jam cycle can determine the entire course of a fight.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2015.11.18 00:59:13 - [61] - Quote Valacus wrote: One jam cycle can determine the entire course of a fight. Yup. And missing a jam cycle at a critical time often swings the fight the other way. If your gang's anti-support elements are on the ball then any ECM boat will have, at best, ONE jam cycle opportunity before being locked up and forced off-grid. If you leave the Kitsune alone, they'll wreck your day. If you keep the pressure on them, they'll spend more time bouncing around than actually fighting. Seriously, do you know how little tank ECM boats have? Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 467	Posted - 2015.11.18 01:07:26 - [62] - Quote Valacus wrote: "You can still warp out" is not an argument. You can still warp out if you aren't jammed. That means nothing. Being sensor damped only applies if you are outranged, but that's a specific scenario. At close range, no amount of sensor damps are going to keep you from locking. Again, you can also apply all of your other modules. You can still lock things close, including fleet mates who might need repping. Jamming leaves no such opening. FoF missiles are unaffected by jamming, but they also don't allow you to choose your target. They also only work if you're flying a missile boat. Well, not all ships use missiles. You're rolling the dice when you use them. Same with aggressive drones. They go for the first thing that aggroes you, which may not be the ship jamming you. Yes, ECM has a chance to fail, but that doesn't balance it. It is still, hands down, the most dangerous EWAR in the game. It is on a completely different level than all other EWAR. It turns a ship it lands on ineffective regardless of range, tracking, or sensor resolution. One jam cycle can determine the entire course of a fight. Let's be honest and say that it all depends on the context of the fight. Are we assuming a 1vs1 , a 1 vs many or a many vs many scenario ? I'd say that depending on the context either one of us has a valid point with our arguments. Personally I still consider scrams to be the deadliest EWAR. Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Wanda Fayne Gurlz with Gunz 104	Posted - 2015.11.18 01:12:29 - [63] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: ...is there too much EWAR in the game? Not in my opinion. Some of it could really use a good balance pass (eg. jams), but overall the ewar adds to the variety and depth of the game and provides an advantage to knowledgeable pilots, which is ideal. Bingo
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2015.11.18 01:13:02 - [64] - Quote FYI: ECM and Damp boats on opposite sides normally get into EWAR-wars with each other. Lets say my 6 man gang has me in a Kitsune up against another 6 man gang with a Keres. The fight can oft'times come down to: can I can jam out the Keres before they damp me out. One damp on a Kitsune is enough to remove me from the fight and force me to bounce. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 205	Posted - 2015.11.18 06:45:32 - [65] - Quote MOAAAAAR EWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!! Just Add Water
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2913	Posted - 2015.11.18 09:15:24 - [66] - Quote No such thing as to much ewar. Maybe its the lack of ECCM ? DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 742	Posted - 2015.11.18 10:21:21 - [67] - Quote Netan MalDoran wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Netan MalDoran wrote: Might I suggest an E-Uni course in D-Scanning? Well tbh, d-scanning does have its limits. He'd be better off doing the E-Uni course in 'How to Blob". Then he'd be the 15 and not the 1. Still, I solo PvP in FW all the time and I now very rarely get blobbed, even gate camps aren't a worry. Do you use a booster/scout? Because that's the only guaranteed way to avoid camps, and is not solo.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 742	Posted - 2015.11.18 10:32:37 - [68] - Quote Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin."
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 470	Posted - 2015.11.18 11:28:50 - [69] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." So the ECM & Griffin combination is a broken mechanic because the Bhaalgorn didn't have back-up ? In a 1 vs many scenario (or blob) you can decry literally any game-mechanic as broken: - fleet of stealth bombers doing a bombing run, broken - gang of attack battlecruisers 1 volleying ships, broken - RR fleet, broken - fleet with logistic back-up, broken - being sensor dampened to below 20km locking range while being held by a long point, broken - being held by more warp disruptors than you can possibly fit warp core stabs, totally broken I'm conceding that ECM is a strong weapon, but at the same time, the specialized ECM ships are for the most part very frail and have low damage output. I think that remote eccm might deserve a boost, possibly even a dedicated frigate and cruiser to specifically counter Griffins, Blackbirds, Falcons ... Let your fleet members broadcast for R-ECCM ! TL,DR: Being blobbed sucks but doesn't mean that ECM as a mechanic is broken or OP. Always bring back-up. edit: P.S. I never not fit Radar sensor strenght boost module (whatever they are called) on my Guardian, because I don't want to be jammed ... but then again I never bring a Guardian if there aren't alredy two at least in the fleet. You gotta keep the cap chain running, if you get my drift. Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12953	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:22:56 - [70] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." I've seen this 'cost' argument time and time again, and it's wrong. Cost has nothing to do with anything. If a Bhaalgorn pilot odesn't know to put on an ECCM (and appropriate cheap sensor strength boosting pirate implants), it's his own fault he gets jammed and killed. Hell a Target Spectrum Breaker has saved my Machariel (I rat with a Mobile depot out just in case). That's the problem I have with all this complaining. What you are supposed to do is do everything in your own personal power to solve a problem before declaring it some kind of problem that someone else needs to fix. If your multi billion isk pirate ships are getting killed in this fashion, you should be using the counters already available, not complaining about the cheap ships used to kill you.
Gillia Winddancer Aliastra Gallente Federation 454	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:24:19 - [71] - Quote Jill Xelitras wrote: Gillia Winddancer wrote: Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. (snip) It would also require multiple ECM's on a target in order to achieve the same effect ECM has today - that is not being able to lock anything at all - a fair tradeoff for removing the chance based system and making it into a constant effect if you ask me. (snip) I would rather have a boost to remote ECCM as a hard counter to ECM. Since there are several dedicated ECM ships, why not have dedicated ECCM ships too ? That would not solve a single thing, you know. It is the whole ECM mechanics that has to change. Moac Tor wrote: Gillia Winddancer wrote: Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. Agreed. Particularly ECM drones, it is so cheap when you get jammed out by a flight of ECM drones (and despite the low jam strength they are strangely reliable in jamming anything BC and below). If you are interested in a better method for implementing ECM whilst keeping it fairly similar to how it currently fuctions then I have a proposal linked in my signature which would fix the issue. An interesting idea. It would certainly be several steps up compared to the current system and allow for more tweaking. But I would still personally also see signature radius play a role for ECM in order to level out the all or nothing result.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 325	Posted - 2015.11.18 14:47:04 - [72] - Quote Gillia Winddancer wrote: Moac Tor wrote: Gillia Winddancer wrote: Ewar is perfectly fine minus the ugly duckling ECM. Agreed. Particularly ECM drones, it is so cheap when you get jammed out by a flight of ECM drones (and despite the low jam strength they are strangely reliable in jamming anything BC and below). If you are interested in a better method for implementing ECM whilst keeping it fairly similar to how it currently fuctions then I have a proposal linked in my signature which would fix the issue. An interesting idea. It would certainly be several steps up compared to the current system and allow for more tweaking. But I would still personally also see signature radius play a role for ECM in order to level out the all or nothing result. That is a good idea. You could pretty much throw in any variables to the calculation using my proposal, but the end result is that the effect is always modulated rather than binary which is the main gist of the proposal. Modulated ECM Effects An Alternative to Skill Trading
Hengle Teron Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate 59054	Posted - 2015.11.18 14:55:45 - [73] - Quote If it's only points keeping you locked, it's easy to gtfo. Just MJD and laugh at them while warping out.
Otso Bakarti Filial Pariahs 463	Posted - 2015.11.18 14:59:59 - [74] - Quote "He who fight and run away live to fight another day." This is the adage the egos won't allow. Ahar! I've said for years web/scram is a crutch. I've pointed out the vast majority of actual naval engagements do NOT end with the sinking of a vessel, and that this phenomena is a rare beauty. For some reason these folks think that KILL is all there is and there ain't no more. Hence the epeen stroker's KIllboards - they even deny the ego ride they get looking at these, but they don't hesitate at pointing to them to put down other people (like the infantile sissies they truly must be.) I laugh at the concept you can have a gizmo that has enough umpf to disrupt an engine's functionality, but not quite enough umpf to destroy the engine. It's comical. You can infiltrate a ship's shields, armor, structure and zippy zap his warp engines or his standard engines with this gizmo, but you actually have to use bullets, missiles, lasers...to do what then? There was a 'before they were introduced' and just like a fisherman who just can't brook a trout wiggling off his hook at the very last minute, some very butthurt whiners couldn't hack a "kill" managing to escape before they got their "righteous killshot" off, so they invented space glue - all of which has more to do with EGO than game play. So, OP, pat yourself on the back. YOU are correct. The flood of apologists (who are addicted to the crutch) are wrong no matter how much bandwidth they waste with their rationalizations and justifications. In truth, their egos can't hack reality, so they need to juke the system to feel better about themselves - and call it "gaming". Nice try though. Now you see where pointing out FACTS gets you in certain precincts. Paranoia strikes deep....
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 337	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:07:43 - [75] - Quote Otso Bakarti wrote: "He who fight and run away live to fight another day." This is the adage the egos won't allow. I prefer this version: "He who runs away today, lives to run away again tomorrow" - Rincewind The Wizzard, Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12954	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:15:44 - [76] - Quote Otso Bakarti wrote: "He who fight and run away live to fight another day." This is the adage the egos won't allow. Ahar! I've said for years web/scram is a crutch. I've pointed out the vast majority of actual naval engagements do NOT end with the sinking of a vessel, and that this phenomena is a rare beauty. For some reason these folks think that KILL is all there is and there ain't no more. Hence the epeen stroker's KIllboards - they even deny the ego ride they get looking at these, but they don't hesitate at pointing to them to put down other people (like the infantile sissies they truly must be.) I laugh at the concept you can have a gizmo that has enough umpf to disrupt an engine's functionality, but not quite enough umpf to destroy the engine. It's comical. You can infiltrate a ship's shields, armor, structure and zippy zap his warp engines or his standard engines with this gizmo, but you actually have to use bullets, missiles, lasers...to do what then? There was a 'before they were introduced' and just like a fisherman who just can't brook a trout wiggling off his hook at the very last minute, some very butthurt whiners couldn't hack a "kill" managing to escape before they got their "righteous killshot" off, so they invented space glue - all of which has more to do with EGO than game play. So, OP, pat yourself on the back. YOU are correct. The flood of apologists (who are addicted to the crutch) are wrong no matter how much bandwidth they waste with their rationalizations and justifications. In truth, their egos can't hack reality, so they need to juke the system to feel better about themselves - and call it "gaming". Nice try though. Now you see where pointing out FACTS gets you in certain precincts. Well, someone is full of...something lol. Webs and scrams are a necessary evil. Real world 'naval engagements' aren't supposed to be fun, video game space combat is, and without a way to keep an enemy on the field long enough to die, the game would be all tanks and alpha striking blobs. Hell, right now ECM bursting interceptors are making use of the fact that noting can hold them down, what kind fo extreme madness would an ENTIRE GAME of that be? It would be a game I wouldn't play, and I'll bet real money that most other folks wouldn't either. That's the definition of a necessary evil. Your suggestion that people who support these necessary things are only people who benefit from them is also false. I PVE in null sec in expensively fit pirate battleships.. Getting rid of points/webs/scrams would benefit me to no end. I wouldn't even need the MJD on my Mach anymore. If you had any earthly idea what I and people like me would be able to do in a game without points and scrams, how much isk I would make, how many carriers (or bling tanked sieged high angle Dreadnaught, coming soon) I'd multibox this game into inflationary ruin with, you'd forget about this dumb beleif about scrams and ewar. You really would, I'd see to it lol.
Otso Bakarti Filial Pariahs 464	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:35:40 - [77] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Otso Bakarti wrote: "He who fight and run away live to fight another day." This is the adage the egos won't allow. Ahar! I've said for years web/scram is a crutch. I've pointed out the vast majority of actual naval engagements do NOT end with the sinking of a vessel, and that this phenomena is a rare beauty. For some reason these folks think that KILL is all there is and there ain't no more. Hence the epeen stroker's KIllboards - they even deny the ego ride they get looking at these, but they don't hesitate at pointing to them to put down other people (like the infantile sissies they truly must be.) I laugh at the concept you can have a gizmo that has enough umpf to disrupt an engine's functionality, but not quite enough umpf to destroy the engine. It's comical. You can infiltrate a ship's shields, armor, structure and zippy zap his warp engines or his standard engines with this gizmo, but you actually have to use bullets, missiles, lasers...to do what then? There was a 'before they were introduced' and just like a fisherman who just can't brook a trout wiggling off his hook at the very last minute, some very butthurt whiners couldn't hack a "kill" managing to escape before they got their "righteous killshot" off, so they invented space glue - all of which has more to do with EGO than game play. So, OP, pat yourself on the back. YOU are correct. The flood of apologists (who are addicted to the crutch) are wrong no matter how much bandwidth they waste with their rationalizations and justifications. In truth, their egos can't hack reality, so they need to juke the system to feel better about themselves - and call it "gaming". Nice try though. Now you see where pointing out FACTS gets you in certain precincts. Well, someone is full of...something lol. Webs and scrams are a necessary evil. Real world 'naval engagements' aren't supposed to be fun, video game space combat is, and without a way to keep an enemy on the field long enough to die, the game would be all tanks and alpha striking blobs. Hell, right now ECM bursting interceptors are making use of the fact that noting can hold them down, what kind of extreme madness would an ENTIRE GAME of that be? It would be a game I wouldn't play, and I'll bet real money that most other folks wouldn't either. That's the definition of a necessary evil, something that exists not because you want it to, but because you NEED it to. Your suggestion that people who support these necessary things are only people who benefit from them is also false. I PVE in null sec in expensively fit pirate battleships.. Getting rid of points/webs/scrams would benefit me to no end. I wouldn't even need the MJD on my Mach anymore. If you had any earthly idea what I and people like me would be able to do in a game without points and scrams, how much isk I would make, how many carriers (or bling tanked sieged high angle Dreadnaught, coming soon) I'd multibox this game into inflationary ruin with, you'd forget about this dumb beleif about scrams and ewar. You really would, I'd see to it lol. I was just trying to get you to repeat yourself. There's more to this game than you shooting at people to satisfy your appetite for digital carnage. Paranoia strikes deep....
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12954	Posted - 2015.11.18 15:40:13 - [78] - Quote Otso Bakarti wrote: I was just trying to get you to repeat yourself. There's more to this game than you shooting at people to satisfy your appetite for digital carnage. My appetite for that is very low, I'm mainly a PVE player, I only pvp to protect my ratting space and sometimes out of boredom. I'm explaining to you that understating the game (and human nature) is the reason for supporting these things that are nessacary evils, not some 'benefit'. In plainer language, your accusation that people only like points and scrams etc because they get kills because of them is false. Again, I would MURDER isk in this game if it weren't for those things, but I'm not selfish enough to want to see them nerfed, because that would make the game suck in so many ways. You simply don't seem to appreciate the value these things give to the game.
lmmortalist lmmortality Associates 117	Posted - 2015.11.18 18:55:47 - [79] - Quote It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12960	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:15:56 - [80] - Quote lmmortalist wrote: It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who). The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think.
Caladan Panzureborn Aliastra Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:27:23 - [81] - Quote I think Webs in particular are pretty stupid. There should be a solid counter to them. "Not getting hit by them" is not a counter. You should be able to slot a module that would negate one web completely. There should also be a skill to train that would reduce their effectiveness by a %. I'm really surprised it's not already a thing. I guess it's one more example of how pvp combat in this game is skewed towards the aggressor. In more well developed MMOs, you would get faction or T2 AB or MWD that inlcuded a % resist to webs. In EVE, there's nothing like that. Or there is and I'm just talking out my arse. I don't claim to be an expert, just seems like common sense. PvP in this game is far from balanced.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 472	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:37:17 - [82] - Quote lmmortalist wrote: It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. 1) I know that F.o.F. don't work as advertized. Has been like this back in 2006 when I started and hasn't changed a bit since then. 2) ECCM , the local module(s) has its use on fairly few ships since you can't ask an entire fleet to sacrifice a low or a mid slot on the chance of being targeted by an ECM ship. I do use them on logistic cruisers. 3) Remote ECCM (Projected ECCM) are actually interesting, but I haven't seen them in use. 4) You may have noticed that I suggested a buff to Projected ECCM, if needed. Such a buff could include dedicated ships, like there are logistic ships now. I hear CCP likes new ships. 5) Why nerf something that isn't broken, when you could boost something that has been broken for years. (ECM got its well deserved nerfs in the past. ECCM and F.o.F.s have remained untouched as far as I remember.) 6) Many modules applied in numbers to one single ship are unpleasant to be at the receiving end of. And don't get me the "Yeah, but ECM is different because I can't target anything". You can still run your reppers and call for back-up, tell your mates to kill the source ECM ship, ask for R-ECCM (oh wait, nobody brought that ), counter ECM the enemy ECM ships, deagress (oh wait, that's already happening , well pull your drones) and jump back through the gate or dock. 7) What me worry if I can't shoot as long as my logistic wing keeps me alive ? I think I almost covered it all. There is certainly more ... I haven't flown in a year now, one tends to forget and the fitting meta changes. In my opinion off-grid boosters are a bigger pain in the ass. ECM is just more in your face, that's why people dislike it ... not because it is so damagingly broken as some claim it to be. Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.18 19:38:24 - [83] - Quote Caladan Panzureborn wrote: I think Webs in particular are pretty stupid. There should be a solid counter to them. "Not getting hit by them" is not a counter. You should be able to slot a module that would negate one web completely. There should also be a skill to train that would reduce their effectiveness by a %. I'm really surprised it's not already a thing. I guess it's one more example of how pvp combat in this game is skewed towards the aggressor. In more well developed MMOs, you would get faction or T2 AB or MWD that inlcuded a % resist to webs. In EVE, there's nothing like that. Or there is and I'm just talking out my arse. I don't claim to be an expert, just seems like common sense. PvP in this game is far from balanced. Oversized AB fit. If you get webbed by multiple people you chose your engagement poorly.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:17:28 - [84] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." I've seen this 'cost' argument time and time again, and it's wrong. Cost has nothing to do with anything. If a Bhaalgorn pilot odesn't know to put on an ECCM (and appropriate cheap sensor strength boosting pirate implants), it's his own fault he gets jammed and killed. Hell a Target Spectrum Breaker has saved my Machariel (I rat with a Mobile depot out just in case). That's the problem I have with all this complaining. What you are supposed to do is do everything in your own personal power to solve a problem before declaring it some kind of problem that someone else needs to fix. If your multi billion isk pirate ships are getting killed in this fashion, you should be using the counters already available, not complaining about the cheap ships used to kill you. Cost has everything to do with it and this occasionally trotted out argument that cost is irrelevant to balance is tedious. If it were true, no one would fly anything but T1 ships. You DO get vastly enhanced function for a higher price in the case of many hulls, especially if you play to their strengths. A dirt cheap frigate should not be able to shut down a battleship permanently. The counters to ECM are bad and unworkable in a small gang setting. The guys that fly around in solo battleships, whatever you may think of them, are creating content in a way that Johnny Nullsec sitting in an anom and waiting to take his part in the weekly blob is not. Those people make EVE better. The people that undock a griffin or worse, a falcon on them every time, make it worse.
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 763	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:41:52 - [85] - Quote Valacus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. Ofc it is - if you are damped - you may not be able to target your opponent at all, or maybe that kitting ship is so fast that it just out runs your drones - or maybe they just stay of scram/web range and plink away at you. (And btw your drones will target folk and continue working for you if you get them out before you are jammed also I think fof missiles still work and are available(?)). Eve is not balanced around solo play. There are many situations where one player is going to be totally/effectively helpless against another in solo or small grp combat. Its just the way it is. In fact, most solo and small grp actions are decided before the match even starts based upon such facts as ship fittings, ship type, skill lvls (both player and toon). ECM is no different then anything else - except that it really makes apparent the inherent nature of eve as a bastion for asymmetrical combat. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Valacus Streets of Fire 21	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:52:17 - [86] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Valacus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. Ofc it is - if you are damped - you may not be able to target your opponent at all, or maybe that kitting ship is so fast that it just out runs your drones - or maybe they just stay of scram/web range and plink away at you. (And btw your drones will target folk and continue working for you if you get them out before you are jammed also I think fof missiles still work and are available(?)). Eve is not balanced around solo play. There are many situations where one player is going to be totally/effectively helpless against another in solo or small grp combat. Its just the way it is. In fact, most solo and small grp actions are decided before the match even starts based upon such facts as ship fittings, ship type, skill lvls (both player and toon). ECM is no different then anything else - except that it really makes apparent the inherent nature of eve as a bastion for asymmetrical combat. Only the damp takes damp + range in order to be truly effective, meaning you have to not only use EWAR, but also pilot your ship correctly and choose your engagement wisely. If the enemy gets too close, they can lock you and it's lights out. ECM is jam + laugh. It doesn't require you to position correctly, save maybe being in range so you aren't in fall off, but that's an easy range to extend. Jamming doesn't require to pilot your ship correctly, especially in small gang settings where you can jam just about everything that is a threat to you. The anti-jamming mechanics are either broken or penalize your ship. Sensor boosters help you whether you are damped or not. Tracking computers help you whether you are disrupted or not. Prop mods help you whether you are webbed or not. ECCM does not do jack for you unless the enemy is fielding ECM, AND EVEN THEN, there is still chance you will get jammed anyways. RNG based jams mean you can get jammed even if your sensor strength is high just as much as it means the jam can miss even if your sensor strength is low. ECM is on a completely different level than all other EWAR. There is no comparison. Its countermeasure gimps your ship while it simultaneously has the chance to fail you, and auto-targeting missiles are a complete joke, not to mention gasp not everyone flies missile boats.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:52:35 - [87] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Valacus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Dagnar wrote: Jamming has been one of the least fun things in this game for a long time. Sure it's great to jam someone with all the power it makes you feel that the person cannot fight for at least 20 seconds, and probably longer with successive jams. However, it is absolutely crap for the jammed person. You don't even get a chance to do some damage or even fight back. I dont understand this attitude at all. Being helpless because of jamming is no different then being helpless because you cant track that small frig that is circling your ship at a close orbit or being kitted while being damped, etc. . . Eve is all about asymmetrical combat - rock/paper/scissor - and hard counters. ECM is no different. That's not a valid comparison, because even when tracking disrupted, you can still apply drones, neuts, scrams, webs, and all of your own EWAR. When you are jammed you can't apply anything. You're flying a brick. Ofc it is - if you are damped - you may not be able to target your opponent at all, or maybe that kitting ship is so fast that it just out runs your drones - or maybe they just stay of scram/web range and plink away at you. (And btw your drones will target folk and continue working for you if you get them out before you are jammed also I think fof missiles still work and are available(?)). Eve is not balanced around solo play. There are many situations where one player is going to be totally/effectively helpless against another in solo or small grp combat. Its just the way it is. In fact, most solo and small grp actions are decided before the match even starts based upon such facts as ship fittings, ship type, skill lvls (both player and toon). ECM is no different then anything else - except that it really makes apparent the inherent nature of eve as a bastion for asymmetrical combat. BS/BC are fit with MJD which forces enemy tackle into scram range; thus only scan res damps are relevant and even then you will eventually target them. Damps and all other forms of e-war can be dealt with at least partially without completely gimping a fit whereas one ECM hull on field renders the fight over - there's nothing you can do. Damps, tracking disruptors, neuts and tackle mods all have limitations and situations where they are less effective or ineffective; jams is just a binary question of whether they land or not that under the present system is weighted far too heavily in favor of the jamming hull. They need to be changed so that they are both a more interesting role for players to fill than warp to optimal, activate mods and cross fingers and so they have a meaningful flaw or drawback akin to other forms of ewar so that they aren't the best choice for "+1" in an N+1 scenario.
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 763	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:54:20 - [88] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:00:07 - [89] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends. You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience.
Vol Arm'OOO Bagel and Lox 764	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:08:58 - [90] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends. You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience. First off - your numbers about cost for ganking freighters is simply totally wrong. Second off - if you fit a bs to murder frigs - you basically cripple it, making it largely useless for its intended purpose. As for eccm rendering a bs useless - its one mod that you fit - which hardly renders the ship useless. But you miss the whole point - in eve you can counter anything if you know whats coming - the problem is when you get unexpected combat - which is exactly where a bs being tied down and killed by a frig occurs which is clearly functionally identical to a ship being perma jammed because they did not fit eccm or train the necessary skills. Also I should add - ecm already got nerfed to hell and back. Used to be falcons were a thing - barely see them anymore - and with good reason because all vets know to train the counter ecm skills which make being perma jammed unlikely. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 472	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:23:06 - [91] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience. I could imagine revisiting sensor strength so that Griffin can jam frigates, Blackbird can jam frigates and cruiser .... But again ECM ships are week hulls hand and they don't shut down your entire fleet, if you don't wipe them off the grid while you have unjamed ships ... I mean, duh ! Most BS can fit drones, which you can assign to a fast locker ... Flying BS solo is nice and all, but don't complain when faster locking ships get the better of you. Might consider fitting ECCM after all, seriously ! Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 448	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:39:20 - [92] - Quote EVE is generally more about rock paper scissors than it is about positioning. Except, its more like rock paper scissors combat knife hammer nuclear missile.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:39:50 - [93] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Most Ewar is fine because it has drawbacks and is not viable in every situation/against every fit. Tackle I don't even consider ewar and is necessary to have explosions. ECM is broken. The chance to fail on bonused hulls is laughable. My corp regularly uses 1M ISK T1 griffins to jam out faction battleships and cruisers..they're actually better than blackbirds. Recently killed a Bhaalgorn that my CEO turned off with a griffin, wasn't even fit specifically for that faction...I think he missed 1-2 jam cycles in the 4-5 minutes it took us to burn him down. Million ISK ship being able to consistently shut down hulls that are far more costly and skill intensive is a bit goofy. Seriously...it's like - "Hey we just tackled a Bhaalgorn, need some help." "Don't worry I'm bringing a griffin." The same could be said for just about anything in eve. Why can a couple of mil isk desy take out a 6 billion isk freighter? And there are countless examples of single frigs plinking away at vastly expensive bs until they die. In truth if eve was like real life - no little frig is ever going to have a chance to solo a BS. But eve is not rl - CCP deliberately made it so that larger is not necessarily better. So it is entirely within that frame work established by CCP that a griffin can lockdown a Bhaalgorn. Ofc I suspect that if a griffin perma jams a Bhaalgorn its because of bad skills - the Bhaalgorn simply forgot to train the ecm counter skills to V or in lieu of that - forgot to fit eccm or drones - or have friends. You need several hundred million ISK worth of destroyers and many pilots to gank a freighter, minimum; often you see mobs of attack battlecruisers used which is not an insignificant investment. Hyperdunking requires multibillion ISK asset commitment in form of bumping machariels and bowhead; the fact that those assets aren't actually at risk is another topic. A BS can easily be fit to murder frigs and shake light tackle whereas it cannot be fit to effectively counter jams without rendering it useless for it's intended purpose. You are talking about things with which you have no experience. First off - your numbers about cost for ganking freighters is simply totally wrong. Second off - if you fit a bs to murder frigs - you basically cripple it, making it largely useless for its intended purpose. As for eccm rendering a bs useless - its one mod that you fit - which hardly renders the ship useless. But you miss the whole point - in eve you can counter anything if you know whats coming - the problem is when you get unexpected combat - which is exactly where a bs being tied down and killed by a frig occurs which is clearly functionally identical to a ship being perma jammed because they did not fit eccm or train the necessary skills. Also I should add - ecm already got nerfed to hell and back. Used to be falcons were a thing - barely see them anymore - and with good reason because all vets know to train the counter ecm skills which make being perma jammed unlikely. Please explain to me how my numbers on ganking are wrong. The bumping Machariel alone costs over 500M.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 338	Posted - 2015.11.18 23:47:48 - [94] - Quote Valacus wrote: [quote=Vol Arm'OOO] ECM is jam + laugh. It doesn't require you to position correctly, save maybe being in range so you aren't in fall off, but that's an easy range to extend. Jamming doesn't require to pilot your ship correctly, especially in small gang settings where you can jam just about everything that is a threat to you. You what, mate? Sounds like you've never flown an EWAR platform. Positioning is EVERYTHING for EWAR hulls, regardless of what kind of EWAR we're talking about. Bad positioning in an EWAR boat gets you blapped, very quickly. Warping to the fight at zero is suicide. Everyone hates the ECM hull. I mean EVERYONE. As I've said, I fly Kitsunes a lot. I'm used to being the instant primary in a fight, which is why I disable fleet warp and try to arrive on-grid ~10-15s after the fight starts. Good positioning give you the opportunity to apply your electronic voodoo and gives you a decent chance of escape when the inevitable T3 Dessy or 'ceptor comes burning at you. The secret to EWAR success is bookmarks, and lot of them. Close by off-grid bookmarks. Bounce perches above, below, front, back, left and right at various ranges. I've spent many, many hours in a snaked Dramiel or 'ceptor burning perches off gates I use regularly and all around various important stations. Heck, I have over 30 bookmarks scattered around one particular Lowsec -> Highsec gate alone. Here's some advice on EWAR and how to counter it: https://www.themittani.com/features/ewar-newbies And if your gonna nerf EWAR, I want my not inconsiderable SP investment back. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
lmmortalist lmmortality Associates 117	Posted - 2015.11.19 07:45:52 - [95] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: lmmortalist wrote: It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who). The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think. Bullshit. Just like Jill explained a couple of posts later, fof missiles are broken and bugged and the ECCM offers no advantage to your ship besides countering ECM (which it does poorly, since most of the jams still land). Also ECM drones are even more broken than the ECM modules. There is simply no justifiable way a single hornet ec-300 should be able to jam a capital ship ever. A recent tournament match also comes to mind when thinking about how idiotic those drones are. The "bring more own ECM ships/logistics/remote ECCM/whatever" solution is actually a viable one. Too bad not everyone enjoys the blob approach to pvp all that much.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12962	Posted - 2015.11.19 14:39:26 - [96] - Quote lmmortalist wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: lmmortalist wrote: It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who). The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think. Bullshit. Just like Jill explained a couple of posts later, fof missiles are broken and bugged and the ECCM offers no advantage to your ship besides countering ECM (which it does poorly, since most of the jams still land). Also ECM drones are even more broken than the ECM modules. There is simply no justifiable way a single hornet ec-300 should be able to jam a capital ship ever. A recent tournament match also comes to mind when thinking about how idiotic those drones are. The "bring more own ECM ships/logistics/remote ECCM/whatever" solution is actually a viable one. Too bad not everyone enjoys the blob approach to pvp all that much. Theres that word 'blob' before. When my ratting ship gets tackled and I use the tools EVE has to get away, I'm not 'blobbing' im usually being blobbed. If you don't want to use the tools that exist to solve this thing you think of as a problem, that's your choice. But you don't get to pretend like those tools don't exist. And now, a very appropriate video for everyone complaining about something they could counter if they gave it some thought: click for Appropriate video.
erg cz Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords 365	Posted - 2015.11.19 15:32:44 - [97] - Quote EWAR is ok, ECM is not ok. Give Caldari something, that disrupts drones instead. Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2015.11.19 18:02:10 - [98] - Quote a 4 man battleship fleet ruining a 22 man gang for it to be ruined by 5 griffins. pffft Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 744	Posted - 2015.11.19 20:35:47 - [99] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: lmmortalist wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: lmmortalist wrote: It's easy to tell not a single person in this thread defending ECCM and fof missiles as legit counters has ever tried using either one of those against ECM being applied to themselves. This is untrue, I've done so (and target lock breakers, and ecm drones, ECM drones set to aggressive will aggress whoever is attacking you, you just can't tell them who). The real truth here is that some people would rather complain than think. Bullshit. Just like Jill explained a couple of posts later, fof missiles are broken and bugged and the ECCM offers no advantage to your ship besides countering ECM (which it does poorly, since most of the jams still land). Also ECM drones are even more broken than the ECM modules. There is simply no justifiable way a single hornet ec-300 should be able to jam a capital ship ever. A recent tournament match also comes to mind when thinking about how idiotic those drones are. The "bring more own ECM ships/logistics/remote ECCM/whatever" solution is actually a viable one. Too bad not everyone enjoys the blob approach to pvp all that much. Theres that word 'blob' before. When my ratting ship gets tackled and I use the tools EVE has to get away, I'm not 'blobbing' im usually being blobbed. If you don't want to use the tools that exist to solve this thing you think of as a problem, that's your choice. But you don't get to pretend like those tools don't exist. And now, a very appropriate video for everyone complaining about something they could counter if they gave it some thought: click for Appropriate video. Plot twist: some people like to do more than just run away. ECM can't be countered effectively in a small gang/solo situation. People who actually participate in that area of the game have already explained why.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 12963	Posted - 2015.11.19 20:58:33 - [100] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Plot twist: some people like to do more than just run away. ECM can't be countered effectively in a small gang/solo situation. People who actually participate in that area of the game have already explained why. They (and you) are wrong. I would love to see you types sent back in time to before the ECM and Falcon nerfs. If you think EWAR is bad now, you'd have loved it back then (not). This goes to show CCP that no amount of nerfing something will ever please those who can't be bothered to think for themselves int he 1st place. It's not unlike how high sec miners claimed mining ships needed ehp buffs, got ehp buffs, and still complain lol.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 474	Posted - 2015.11.19 21:56:16 - [101] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: a 4 man battleship fleet ruining a 22 man gang for it to be ruined by 5 griffins. pffft Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again. Just Butthurt speaking ... everyone know that a BS can't lock frigates quickly. Your fault for not bringing anti-frig support. Smart use of Griffins by your enemy. Your post can be summed down to: Hilti Enaka wrote: pffft Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Doc J Assisted Homicide 18	Posted - 2015.11.19 22:10:27 - [102] - Quote Jill Xelitras wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: a 4 man battleship fleet ruining a 22 man gang for it to be ruined by 5 griffins. pffft Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again. Just Butthurt speaking ... everyone know that a BS can't lock frigates quickly. Your fault for not bringing anti-frig support. Smart use of Griffins by your enemy. Your post can be summed down to: Hilti Enaka wrote: pffft Completely ridiculous post Jill, the BS fleet were probably seeking out content Quote: There are other means to get a story out of EvE that don't rely on CCP adding content: As you most politely put. unbalanced when you compare to scale. Webs, scrams, and disruptions exactly the same as ECM.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 338	Posted - 2015.11.19 23:02:37 - [103] - Quote erg cz wrote: EWAR is ok, ECM is not ok. Give Caldari something, that disrupts drones instead. ProTip: You can jam drones. They're equally sensitive to all the different racial ECM modules. Although, using a tracking disruptor on drones is actually better than jamming them. When jammed, drones appear "idle" to their owner, so they recall them. TD, on the other hand, they're still "fighting", just much less effectively. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Daerrol Death By Design Did he say Jump 266	Posted - 2015.11.19 23:44:07 - [104] - Quote AtramLolipop wrote: When you wake up to the fact that not everyone wants to play the game in a group because there is something more satisfying about playing the game and achieving things on your own you might understand what you have written is ridiculous. There are ships that cost way more than 500m and don't carry drones, Your argument about sensor strength is also stupid when the hole mechanic is based on chance. Hell you could fly a Falcon right at me and not land a single jam. A huge piece of the game that is missing is survivability and all these statements about watching local and D-scan are so ridiculous because the people writing them know you could do the best job in the world and still not be survive. Lots of people have already mentioned the game is about numbers but i also think it's about being in control and not just about clicking on a module and watching it cycle. There is no cost to jams, webs disruptors, scrambs, TP, like there is to neuts and noses and that is why Ewar needs looking at. Eventually i'd like to play a game where it is possible to defend yourself against a surprise blob through clever piloting. At the moment we are sat repeating the same process for every encounter making the game dull and boring. Plz name a 500m (Combat) ship without Drones. I will concede industrial ships and what not, but even most of those have Drones at that price range (Orca, Rorqual, and mining barges do, at least). Seriously name one ship that costs 500m that doesn't have drones, Maybe some Alliance Tourny thing? I will admit I'm not a 100% solo player. I mostly fly in gangs. That said I have engaged gangs in blingy ships and taken some down. The thing that MAKES solo PVP in this game cool is because of how hard it is. You can already do really well as a 1 vs n00b gang. Lots of people do it. Look up EVE is Easy on Youtube. I've also been in gangs that were beaten by 3 or less ships, and we were in proper fit ships with experienced pilots. Also PvP record insulted by forum alt
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.11.20 00:03:07 - [105] - Quote Daerrol wrote: AtramLolipop wrote: When you wake up to the fact that not everyone wants to play the game in a group because there is something more satisfying about playing the game and achieving things on your own you might understand what you have written is ridiculous. There are ships that cost way more than 500m and don't carry drones, Your argument about sensor strength is also stupid when the hole mechanic is based on chance. Hell you could fly a Falcon right at me and not land a single jam. A huge piece of the game that is missing is survivability and all these statements about watching local and D-scan are so ridiculous because the people writing them know you could do the best job in the world and still not be survive. Lots of people have already mentioned the game is about numbers but i also think it's about being in control and not just about clicking on a module and watching it cycle. There is no cost to jams, webs disruptors, scrambs, TP, like there is to neuts and noses and that is why Ewar needs looking at. Eventually i'd like to play a game where it is possible to defend yourself against a surprise blob through clever piloting. At the moment we are sat repeating the same process for every encounter making the game dull and boring. Plz name a 500m (Combat) ship without Drones. I will concede industrial ships and what not, but even most of those have Drones at that price range (Orca, Rorqual, and mining barges do, at least). Seriously name one ship that costs 500m that doesn't have drones, Maybe some Alliance Tourny thing? I will admit I'm not a 100% solo player. I mostly fly in gangs. That said I have engaged gangs in blingy ships and taken some down. The thing that MAKES solo PVP in this game cool is because of how hard it is. You can already do really well as a 1 vs n00b gang. Lots of people do it. Look up EVE is Easy on Youtube. I've also been in gangs that were beaten by 3 or less ships, and we were in proper fit ships with experienced pilots. Also PvP record insulted by forum alt Tengu
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 474	Posted - 2015.11.20 00:51:56 - [106] - Quote Doc J wrote: Jill Xelitras wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again. ... everyone know that a BS can't lock frigates quickly. Your fault for not bringing anti-frig support. Smart use of Griffins by your enemy. Completely ridiculous post Jill, the BS fleet were probably seeking out content unbalanced when you compare to scale. Webs, scrams, and disruptions exactly the same as ECM. Battleships are not supposed to be WTFBBQPWN-mobiles. They are supposed to deliver large amounts of hurt onto big and slow targets. quote from: wiki.eveuniversity.org/Battleship Quote: Battleships' weaknesses are low speed and agility, combined with slow locking speeds and poor gun tracking speeds. Battleships therefore struggle to force smaller ships to engage, and to kill smaller ships even when they can be pinned down. If people don't know that BS are vulnerable to frigates, it's their own fault. Why blame it on other things / people ? Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
AtramLolipop Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2015.11.20 00:54:11 - [107] - Quote Jill Xelitras wrote: Doc J wrote: Jill Xelitras wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Can't even lock a griffin up in a BS before you are jammed again. ... everyone know that a BS can't lock frigates quickly. Your fault for not bringing anti-frig support. Smart use of Griffins by your enemy. Completely ridiculous post Jill, the BS fleet were probably seeking out content unbalanced when you compare to scale. Webs, scrams, and disruptions exactly the same as ECM. Battleships are not supposed to be WTFBBQPWN-mobiles. They are supposed to deliver large amounts of hurt onto big and slow targets. quote from: wiki.eveuniversity.org/Battleship Quote: Battleships' weaknesses are low speed and agility, combined with slow locking speeds and poor gun tracking speeds. Battleships therefore struggle to force smaller ships to engage, and to kill smaller ships even when they can be pinned down. If people don't know that BS are vulnerable to frigates, it's their own fault. Why blame it on other things / people ? Way to go to skip the actually discussion point of EWAR.
Valacus Streets of Fire 23	Posted - 2015.11.20 01:02:10 - [108] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: Valacus wrote: [quote=Vol Arm'OOO] ECM is jam + laugh. It doesn't require you to position correctly, save maybe being in range so you aren't in fall off, but that's an easy range to extend. Jamming doesn't require to pilot your ship correctly, especially in small gang settings where you can jam just about everything that is a threat to you. You what, mate? Sounds like you've never flown an EWAR platform. Positioning is EVERYTHING for EWAR hulls, regardless of what kind of EWAR we're talking about. Bad positioning in an EWAR boat gets you blapped, very quickly. Warping to the fight at zero is suicide. Everyone hates the ECM hull. I mean EVERYONE. As I've said, I fly Kitsunes a lot. I'm used to being the instant primary in a fight, which is why I disable fleet warp and try to arrive on-grid ~10-15s after the fight starts. Good positioning give you the opportunity to apply your electronic voodoo and gives you a decent chance of escape when the inevitable T3 Dessy or 'ceptor comes burning at you. The secret to EWAR success is bookmarks, and lot of them. Close by off-grid bookmarks. Bounce perches above, below, front, back, left and right at various ranges. I've spent many, many hours in a snaked Dramiel or 'ceptor burning perches off gates I use regularly and all around various important stations. Heck, I have over 30 bookmarks scattered around one particular Lowsec -> Highsec gate alone. Here's some advice on EWAR and how to counter it: https://www.themittani.com/features/ewar-newbies And if your gonna nerf EWAR, I want my not inconsiderable SP investment back. Oh please, "you sound like you've never xxxxx". You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about, because you don't. Yes, everyone hates the ECM hull. You know why? Because it's a load of crap. It's the only EWAR type that turns your ship into a flying space brick of which the only viable countermeasures requires you to gimp your fitting. No wonder everyone hates it. You just countered your own argument. And the secret to all success is bookmarks and lots of them. Everyone who succeeds has them, EWAR or not. That's something everyone should already be doing. EWAR is not exclusive to that and never has been. I couldn't care less how many bookmarks you have. Couldn't care less about your link either. Your SP is also something I refuse to care about. I spent SP on EWAR too. Amazingly enough, that SP isn't wasted even if they removed ECM from the game, save signal dispersion V. Every other EWAR skill still applies to things I use on a regular basis, only those things aren't as broken as ECM.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 474	Posted - 2015.11.20 01:20:14 - [109] - Quote Valacus wrote: Yes, everyone hates the ECM hull. You know why? Because it's a load of crap. It's the only EWAR type that turns your ship into a flying space brick of which the only viable countermeasures requires you to gimp your fitting. No wonder everyone hates it. You just don't like being at the receiving end of it and refuse to use the counters at your disposal. Maybe you should try flying ECM ships yourself ? Caldari frigates is a quick train Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 340	Posted - 2015.11.20 01:25:24 - [110] - Quote Valacus wrote: Yes, everyone hates the ECM hull. You know why? Because it's a load of crap. It's the only EWAR type that turns your ship into a flying space brick of which the only viable countermeasures requires you to gimp your fitting. No wonder everyone hates it. You just countered your own argument. lol. umad, bro? Yes ECM has a chance to turn your blinged out solowtfpwnmobile into a loot pinata. It also has a, usually larger, chance of failure. It's all down to the RNG gods. Seriously, bring some anti-support elements in your gang and those annoying Griffins and Kitsunes suddenly turn into delicious killmails. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 474	Posted - 2015.11.20 01:31:45 - [111] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: Valacus wrote: grr ecm lol. umad, bro? He mad. My advice: lemons elmons emlons melons Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
StuRyan Space Mutts 57	Posted - 2015.11.20 01:49:20 - [112] - Quote I fly ECM and I actually think it's a terrible part of the game. Reading all these comments one that I liked was about scalability. Why are certain EWAR modules exempt from the model that Eve has built itself on for everything other module. Guns - small, medium, large Missile - small, medium, large ships - small, medium, large shields - small, medium, large armour - small medium, large Neuts - small, medium, large Nos- small medium, large Warp distruptor - standard Scramble - standard Target paintes - standard webs - standard ECM - standard This for me is what is broken with EWAR in Eve. Because of this it means people can "cheat" by using inexpensive stuff. This is fine in things like FW but even in this game play blobs are inevitable. You don't see many 5 man gangs being able to hold their own anymore because the most powerful EWAR modules aren't scaled. I know some ships have a role bonus, usually these bonuses are negated by making the ship more expensive or by penalizing power or cpu. We need a complete rethink of this part of the game. I dislike the click and watch mentality and I dislike how the unbalanced ratio of success (landing a web) versus effort/concentration needed to maintain the web drives a Lock > activate web > orbit. gameplay. It's too easy and dull and is another reason why people are forced into flying in blobs. To make this successful i consider something more in line with a scaled increase in cap cost related to the ship that the ewar module it is fitted on (Same way Nos and Neuts work and the same way other modules are structured in Eve). Notice I said cap Cost, the cost of activating the module consider it to be the same cost as a BLOP jumping. For ECM i would do away with the chance based module, make it 100% successful but make the cost of it proportional to the ship it is fitted on. This is where role specific ships come into their own. It's fine to have the modules, i'd like the game to evolve to a point where activating modules especially EWAR has more consequences.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 341	Posted - 2015.11.20 02:25:34 - [113] - Quote StuRyan wrote: I fly ECM and I actually think it's a terrible part of the game. Reading all these comments one that I liked was about scalability. Why are certain EWAR modules exempt from the model that Eve has built itself on for everything other module. Guns - small, medium, large Missile - small, medium, large ships - small, medium, large shields - small, medium, large armour - small medium, large Neuts - small, medium, large Nos- small medium, large Warp distruptor - standard Scramble - standard Target paintes - standard webs - standard ECM - standard. Because ECM uses four different racially specific sensor types and the Multi-Specs are all but useless outside of Officer mods? If I'm flying with a rainbow rack and I encounter a gang with, for example, two Omen Navy Issues and two Svipuls as their anti-support, I'm highly, HIGHLY unlikely to be able to jam all four of them unless I know in advance what I'm up against and I have time to refit my jam rack accordingly, which is very unusual in most roaming situations. Besides, you CAN fit, for example, Small Lasers onto a Megathron if you really want. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
erg cz Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords 366	Posted - 2015.11.20 08:23:15 - [114] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: If I'm flying with a rainbow rack and I encounter a gang with, for example, two Omen Navy Issues and two Svipuls as their anti-support, I'm highly, HIGHLY unlikely to be able to jam all four of them unless I know in advance what I'm up against and I have time to refit my jam rack accordingly, which is very unusual in most roaming situations. Besides, you CAN fit, for example, Small Lasers onto a Megathron if you really want. If multi specs would be effective everyone will fly with them. That ECM is little bit balanced thanks to racial resists is a very little help. Of cause you can fit small lasers on BS. But you can not fit large guns of frigate. That is what was referenced post about, if I understood it correctly. Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
StuRyan Space Mutts 61	Posted - 2015.11.20 10:15:32 - [115] - Quote erg cz wrote: Mephiztopheleze wrote: If I'm flying with a rainbow rack and I encounter a gang with, for example, two Omen Navy Issues and two Svipuls as their anti-support, I'm highly, HIGHLY unlikely to be able to jam all four of them unless I know in advance what I'm up against and I have time to refit my jam rack accordingly, which is very unusual in most roaming situations. Besides, you CAN fit, for example, Small Lasers onto a Megathron if you really want. If multi specs would be effective everyone will fly with them. That ECM is little bit balanced thanks to racial resists is a very little help. Of cause you can fit small lasers on BS. But you can not fit large guns of frigate. That is what was referenced post about, if I understood it correctly. Actually he quoted half a post, i referred to moving away from this chance model for ECM to a model in line with all other ewar models - 100% success with proportional cycle cost and spool up and down time. I'd rather see ECM modules change from a racial bonus model to a spooll up and down/time model. And LOL - small lazers on a BS - still no good if you can't lock them. But whilst you mention this, I think the hole landscape of modules can be redesigned and a step away from this PG and CPU restriction.
Divine Entervention Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 789	Posted - 2015.11.21 01:37:44 - [116] - Quote Everything is in it's right place.
Kaelynne Rose WTB Somalians 55	Posted - 2015.11.21 07:56:16 - [117] - Quote ECM is OP. Fozzie knows it. Rise knows it. Pleople that use ECM know it. People that get permajammed know it. ECM=wprst mechanic im emtire vodeo game. 4real
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 745	Posted - 2015.11.21 14:51:54 - [118] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Plot twist: some people like to do more than just run away. ECM can't be countered effectively in a small gang/solo situation. People who actually participate in that area of the game have already explained why. They (and you) are wrong. I would love to see you types sent back in time to before the ECM and Falcon nerfs. If you think EWAR is bad now, you'd have loved it back then (not). This goes to show CCP that no amount of nerfing something will ever please those who can't be bothered to think for themselves int he 1st place. It's not unlike how high sec miners claimed mining ships needed ehp buffs, got ehp buffs, and still complain lol. CCP fixing broken or sub-optimal aspects of the game is hardly a bad thing and I don't know why I'd want to go back to a time before those changes occurred. The issues with ECCM and FoF missiles have already been covered; just stuffing your fingers in your ears and saying "you're wrong" proves nothing. If you are largely a PvE player this is a mechanic which hardly affects you and thus I'm not sure why you're concerned with it anyway.
Jill Xelitras Xeltec services 474	Posted - 2015.11.21 15:19:46 - [119] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: CCP fixing broken or sub-optimal aspects of the game is hardly a bad thing and I don't know why I'd want to go back to a time before those changes occurred. Going back in time would help understand why ECM was changed from a set outcome and permanent effect (if you got 1 jam, you had a guaranteed perma-jam) to a chance based outcome which gives each module cycle a chance to fail to achieve a jam. People argueing that RNGesus favours the attacker "because he always gets a chance to land a jam" have it wrong. RNG gives the target a chance not to be jammed. I don't get why people want to return to set outcomes "scissors beat paper" in this particular case. We had that and it was bad. Demerius Xenocratus wrote: The issues with ECCM and FoF missiles have already been covered; just stuffing your fingers in your ears and saying "you're wrong" proves nothing. Agreed on FoF missiles. ECCM is highly dependent on ship. As I said, it was a must have on my Guardian fits. Projected ECCM may be underused by fleets. Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you are largely a PvE player this is a mechanic which hardly affects you and thus I'm not sure why you're concerned with it anyway. Because PvE players, especially those in WH or 0.0 never become targets of PvP activities, right ? Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.) When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.

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