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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.02 10:51:00 -
[1]
Hi everybody 
In light of Joshua¦s thread about MWDs and whether they are in need of a change or not I have opened this thread to gather some opinions on two topics.¦
With the changes to targeting speed hitting chaos just now, quite a few people in that thread expressed concerns about two rather small topics that will most likely require some dev attention if they want to keep PvP anything near balanced. I¦m talking about FoF missiles and drones.
As you might realise, the changes to targeting speed are the first big step towards frigates and cruisers as the common ships in combat. This change alone however just won¦t cut it, as there are other issues that will most likely affect combat in a pretty annoying way.
Battleships generally take a long time to target frigates, with one exception: FoF missiles.
Ravens armed to the teeth with FoF cruise missiles will be able to fire at the enemy without having to aquire a lock, which is a huge advantage in light of the long locktimes other battleships have against them. Especially with the help of other modules (dampeners) hindering other ships to get faster locks the Raven and other missile-boats (Scorpion,...) will not only be able to kill frigates with a few volleys of FoF missiles, they will also get to fire at other battleships more than 15 seconds before they get a lock on them if they¦re not using Sensor Boosters or if they are dampened/jammed.
This is a problem, but IMO it can easily be fixed with the introduction of FoF defender missiles.
FoF defender missiles would be missiles that can always be fired and they will seek and destroy other FoF missiles.
This allows groups of frigates or ships with more launchers to protect their fellows from FoF missile fire by deploying FoF defender missiles, providing an effective countermeasure against FoF-Ravens and other ships of this type.
The second problem I¦d like to hear your opinions on are drones.
As stated by Omri in this thread, drones are currently a problem for frigates as they pop them in a matter of seconds.
First off, I have not yet tested this myself but seeing Omri as the CEO of the only real corporation using frigates to fight I believe that he¦s has the exprience to make that claim... although I don¦t see the problem with drones as harsh as he does.
IMO, defending against drones is possible with the right tactics. With missilecruisers or Kestrels shooting at the drones, it should be possible to kill the drones before they reach the frigates. Naturally, this requires some distance between the frigs and the drones but as said with the right tactic I think it should work quite well.
Another option that came to my mind was the introduction of 'interceptor drones'. Interceptor drones would be drones that are specialised in taking out combat drones, but are unable to attack anything else. They would pose a direct counter to combat drones which is good IMO.
These drones would of course need to be rather large so that frigates themselves can¦t use them in sufficient numbers. They¦d have to be backed up by Thorax cruisers or other droneships to be safe from drones.
What¦s your opinion? Do you think that FoF missiles will be 'uber' once the changes to targeting speed go live? What¦s you opinion and experience with drones? Do you think they need to be changed in order to keep PvP balanced or do you think they¦re fine the way they are?
As a last note I¦d like to ask you guys to stay on topic and refrain from talkin about anything besides FoFs and drones. Also do not flame each other for having different opinions. I opened this thread to gather as many views as possible to perhaps create something that might be useful for TomB or whoever else at CCP happens to read this.
Cheers.
Mai's Idealog |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.12.02 11:00:00 -
[2]
If you can't get a lock, you can't use yer drones (unless the frig fires).
FoF don't work if the target doesn't fire either. Solution for the poor wee frig, don't take pot-shots at the bship you want to lock down, just keep it locked down
(I'm not sure if jamming and the like triggers the FoF missiles, though)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Arcane
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Posted - 2003.12.02 12:20:00 -
[3]
To the original poster: after reading the first few paragraphs it became obvious that you have never even fired a single FOF missile nor have you made your homework and informed yourself enough. So please before making such long posts with suggestions make sure they are based on facts rather than on your idea on how things may work. CCP already does not seem to read any of the ideas posted here and spamming them with useless stuff does for sure not help changing this.
FYI: in order to fire FOFs you need somebody already shooting at you which means he does already have a lock. Currently there is only one weapon available which allows combat w/o anyone having a lock or shooting first which are smartbombs.
p.s.: sorry if I hurt your feelings and in fact I think we all appreciate people thinking about how EVE could be improved but writing-before-thinking/informing yourself does not help.
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Serge
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Posted - 2003.12.02 12:30:00 -
[4]
Well - you dont need to shoot at someone to trigger FoFs ... its enough to warpscramble, sensor dampen, tracking disrupt or target jamm the opponent to "attack" you and enable them to use FoFs against you. Because all these EW-attacks are "ATTACKS"
Therefore the use of FoFs (and drones) will definitly help making Scorp and Raven the best overall combat ships (that they already are .. at least for PvP) atm.
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... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha |
Earthan
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Posted - 2003.12.02 15:56:00 -
[5]
I think that if somebody fires at you any missiles fof included , you can fire defenders.Not sure but i think so.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 16:19:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
Well - you dont need to shoot at someone to trigger FoFs ... its enough to warpscramble, sensor dampen, tracking disrupt or target jamm the opponent to "attack" you and enable them to use FoFs against you. Because all these EW-attacks are "ATTACKS"
Therefore the use of FoFs (and drones) will definitly help making Scorp and Raven the best overall combat ships (that they already are .. at least for PvP) atm.
Unless they meet a fully armed battleship.
This is a push towards mixed fleet tactics. Not "Everyone hop into frigates now instead of battleships".
A Raven armed with FoF cruise missiles attempting to swat frigates is dead against any fully armed battleship or 2 fully armed cruisers.
Drones suffer from a bug that has to be fixed prior to make any real analysis of their capabilities. The bug being that despite having an optimal and a falloff range, they can still begin attacking from 20km.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 16:31:00 -
[7]
Quote:
If you can't get a lock, you can't use yer drones (unless the frig fires).
Drones will change and attack all attackers not just the first one. After each assailt is podded the drones will move on to the next attacker. (Travelers patch notes)
If the frig doesn't fire.. how is it going to kill you? Death from severe exposure to Webifier and Warp scrambler radiation?:P
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Toulak
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Posted - 2003.12.02 16:40:00 -
[8]
Quote:
FoF don't work if the target doesn't fire either. Solution for the poor wee frig, don't take pot-shots at the bship you want to lock down, just keep it locked down
Jamming counts as an aggresive move and so you can fire FoFs, and the drones will attack that target.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.02 17:21:00 -
[9]
Quote:
A Raven armed with FoF cruise missiles attempting to swat frigates is dead against any fully armed battleship or 2 fully armed cruisers.
This my be new for you, Jash, but you can change the type of missles in flight. Unbelievable, isn't it?
So, if a Raven meets a "fully armed" BS it can switch from FoF cruise to torps.
free speech not allowed here |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.12.02 17:37:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Quote:
Well - you dont need to shoot at someone to trigger FoFs ... its enough to warpscramble, sensor dampen, tracking disrupt or target jamm the opponent to "attack" you and enable them to use FoFs against you. Because all these EW-attacks are "ATTACKS"
Therefore the use of FoFs (and drones) will definitly help making Scorp and Raven the best overall combat ships (that they already are .. at least for PvP) atm.
Unless they meet a fully armed battleship.
This is a push towards mixed fleet tactics. Not "Everyone hop into frigates now instead of battleships".
A Raven armed with FoF cruise missiles attempting to swat frigates is dead against any fully armed battleship or 2 fully armed cruisers.
Drones suffer from a bug that has to be fixed prior to make any real analysis of their capabilities. The bug being that despite having an optimal and a falloff range, they can still begin attacking from 20km.
Actualy they don't attack untill they are 10km away which is just fine. As long as a frigate can outrun the drones and stay 10km away from them the drones can't do squat.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.02 17:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/12/2003 17:40:03
FOF defenders:
Alternativly you could modify the existing defenders that they will try to kill any missle targeting a member of your gang, instead only you.
Drones:
Yes, they HURT. I've seen a BB taken out by 8-9 drones in around 30 secs. 8 Drones deal (with shield/armor resistances) around 60 damage/second. Your average frig will last perhaps 15 sec max under that firepower.
Anti-Drones would be an idea, but I don't really see the need of them. If you need a thorax as anti-drone carrier, why not simply get a caracal with cruise/torps to deal with the drones?
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.02 17:39:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Actualy they don't attack untill they are 10km away which is just fine. As long as a frigate can outrun the drones and stay 10km away from them the drones can't do squat.
Perhaps you should tell that the drones which attacked me from 20k. They didn't seem to know this.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.02 18:04:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Quote:
A Raven armed with FoF cruise missiles attempting to swat frigates is dead against any fully armed battleship or 2 fully armed cruisers.
This my be new for you, Jash, but you can change the type of missles in flight. Unbelievable, isn't it?
So, if a Raven meets a "fully armed" BS it can switch from FoF cruise to torps.
Cool! Means I get 2 salvos from my 1400s + Siege Launchers before I have to worry about incoming damage. 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.02 18:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/12/2003 18:11:17
Not really. With the locking speed changers the raven can easily change to torps before you or him got a lock on each other 
You will still hit before suffering much damage yourself, of cource, but that's because of the speed of the torps.
free speech not allowed here |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.02 19:31:00 -
[15]
Quote:
FOF defenders:
Alternativly you could modify the existing defenders that they will try to kill any missle targeting a member of your gang, instead only you.
Drones:
Yes, they HURT. I've seen a BB taken out by 8-9 drones in around 30 secs. 8 Drones deal (with shield/armor resistances) around 60 damage/second. Your average frig will last perhaps 15 sec max under that firepower.
Anti-Drones would be an idea, but I don't really see the need of them. If you need a thorax as anti-drone carrier, why not simply get a caracal with cruise/torps to deal with the drones?
I really liked that post. Thanks
To the rest of you whiney little nerds... maybe YOU should inform yourselves and get a clue before coming in here to flame  And maybe you should try to be constructive... this isn¦t the General Discussion forum so get a grip and DO NOT POST if you have nothing to say besides stupid flames.
Again, thanks Jash and Ana for your posts since they¦ve been the most objective posts so far. Always a pleasure to read your stuff, though we don¦t really share the same opinion most of the time.
I share your opinion about drones Ana. Any ship with a bunch of missiles in the hold can deal with drones from what I can tell, but as Omri stated they are kind of a superfast frig-killer and he said that one of the reasons he and his friends instantly got killed most of the times are drones. Interceptor drones were something that just came to my mind. But that wasn¦t like a real suggestion of which I think the game can¦t live without or something
Anyways, keep them opinions coming people
Mai's Idealog |
Nimrodel
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Posted - 2003.12.03 02:50:00 -
[16]
Frigates are never ment to kill battleships solo...
frigates can jam and use Defender missiles to protect themselfs while larger ships do damage
Drones will die with one torpedo or 2 cruise missiles and they stick close together meaning multiple drones will be destroyed
Then the other point.. the cheapest BS cost thousands of times more than the frigate..
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Nimrodel
Dark Force User
Joint Espionage & Defence Industries
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Your Medium YF-12a Smartbomb hits Rusty Cloud, doing 0.0 damage. |
potty
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Posted - 2003.12.04 12:14:00 -
[17]
Edited by: potty on 04/12/2003 12:20:12
The thing about frigets destroys bs is realy anoing me,
A 90mill bs should be able to destroy a fleet of 5 frigets tbh, and the end of the day its a BATTLE SHIP people seem to be forgeting that, well thats just my view
I think battle ships should be made more powerful so they can take on more ship like they would in the "Real" world but cost alot like 300 - 400mill or only have a small number avalible, so if if ya see one its like beening a noob again "ahhh look at that bs *slobber*"
and this wouldntmake it be solo becasue to get the cash for it you would ahve to be in a corp for a long time to get it, also i think the production shoulod be made by npc's becasue no-way would a goverment let out plans for a top battle ship.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.04 14:04:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Edited by: potty on 04/12/2003 12:20:12
The thing about frigets destroys bs is realy anoing me,
A 90mill bs should be able to destroy a fleet of 5 frigets tbh, and the end of the day its a BATTLE SHIP people seem to be forgeting that, well thats just my view
I think battle ships should be made more powerful so they can take on more ship like they would in the "Real" world but cost alot like 300 - 400mill or only have a small number avalible, so if if ya see one its like beening a noob again "ahhh look at that bs *slobber*"
and this wouldntmake it be solo becasue to get the cash for it you would ahve to be in a corp for a long time to get it, also i think the production shoulod be made by npc's becasue no-way would a goverment let out plans for a top battle ship.
A real battleship will get chewed apart by a coordinated group of smaller, faster ships. Why do you think real world battleships don't sail alone?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.12.04 19:14:00 -
[19]
First from reading the above post about fof-specific defenders, then farther down the thread about defends protecting gang members, brought up a memory.
I know nobody has probably played it, since it was so long ago, but I remember driving a sub in a game called Iceman, which was probably one of the first rpg's. At one point you come upon another sub and are able to use "Decoy" missles which draw the others away from themselves.
Seems some large missles (about the size of say a mine?) set in an m-12 launcher might not be too bad. Even making it a new type of mine?
Anyways, this was just a simple idea about that. Now to the drones/BS/Frig problem.
Above was voiced the protest of one BS falling to a group of 5 frigs. And above that mention, was one about getting warp scrambled and web'd to death. Then there was the point about BS's cost compared to frigates.
Sorry for the haphazard partial summary of some of the points I want to talk about.
---
First off, About a BS falling to frigs. One point I'd like to raise is that of other ships using warp cores and mwd's to evade bs blockades. Seems people might have to start using them on bs's if you want to be safe. Second part on a similar note: Jamming. Again, boost up your own sensor strength to prevent jamming then peg away with cruise missles.
I don't believe this should turn into a discussion of tactics, but the point i wanted to get across is that there are measures with which to guard against these types of things.
*
Onto the mention of a snide comment about a bs getting warped and web'd to death. A thorax can use frigates for ew for fast lockon's, it's own drones to combat the bs's and it's own guns to take it apart.
All a frigate needs to do is keep it in one spot and unable to warp/target. (Thus effectively making it a box in space)
Heck, i'm not a frigate fighter, so I don't know how effetive it is to orbit at 1km from a bs against it's turrets. Defender missles DO work I think?
*
Now about the cost of a BS vs a Frig. I do agree that this needs to be looked at, and the comment about "Lets all jump into frigs instead of bs's" was a very valid point. (Which is why it's being tested) Not sure how that will turn out, but I believe that they will actually take that into account when designing this.
++++++++++++++++++++++
That's my above points to different arguements for or against parts of the new system. Now here's a question of my own:
Does attacking a drone have the same affect as attacking the BS? I realise that this may be a moot point because drones will attack ALL attackers, but I'm still curious.
P.S. A point/idea about drones, perhaps tracking speed can be accomodated in accordance to frigates?
-------------------
Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
Techie Zero
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Posted - 2003.12.04 22:24:00 -
[20]
Smartbombs are a great defense vs drones.
EVE-I.com~THE Info source |
Herophant
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Posted - 2003.12.05 02:31:00 -
[21]
I think many people fail to see the point of the new patch. its not about nerfing bs. Its about leting new players fight, without playing 3 months of minning first.
If the ccp remarkeds the game we are gonna see lots of new players. They are the ones that will use the frigs.
When the time comes chosing betwen a frig and a bs the bs will probably still be the smart choise. As we speak there are a lot of players in eve thats not a part of the pvp group. Some becouse they cant use a bs or they cant aford one. Mainly they are the people a smart corp will get to pilot the frigs and cruisers. After all the bs will till be more important than a frig.
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Etharion
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Posted - 2003.12.05 03:27:00 -
[22]
About prices difference between fregates (or even cruiser) and BS :
The price balance between all ship class was done with zyd at 1024 and mega at 4096.
With current prices, price rose about 40% for a big BS production (and cruiser about 25%) while fregates cost rose about 0%.
In theory, prices were more balanced, but market's evolution is killing that balance.
Maybe changes in mega/zyd needs in ship productions could re-balance a bit.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.05 13:02:00 -
[23]
Changing the mega/zyd requirements would be like giving a starving man some bread.
Fixing the &$&%$& crop respawn of his field would be a far better longterm solution.
free speech not allowed here |
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