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Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:57:00 - [1] Hello again brothers, I speak today on the purpose of so called "Freedom-Fighters". I have been asking myself what their objectives are, what they achieve and what this all actully means. Obviously the word Freedom-Fighter is a title to be taken up with pride by the Minmitar "Rebels", as we shall refer to them for this communication, who attempt to damage slavery by freeing slaves via violent means. Their objective appears to be simple, to launch attack upon attack on honest slave-holding Amarrians in their crusade to free the slaves. From a neutal point of view I can see where they are coming from, they are putting into action their desire to help those of their own race who are in slavery. However what do they achieve with their actions? By attacking Amarrian transports not only do they ROB Amarrian civilians of their freedom, as well as their lives, they are in fact no better than the Amarr who so "cruely" enslae them. Are these slaves given a choice if they want to leave with these rebels who attack and take them as they would take a trophey? No of course not, because the "Freedom-fighter" knows what is best for his fellow man, he is obviously in a position to decide what is best for these people that he has never met before. In my eyes this in itself is a way of robbing these slaves of their freedom...you take them from all they have known, from owners who teach them the Amarrian way, and you thrust them into your cargo holds, and you carry them to your next prey where you do the same. However I'm sure there are at least a few out there who actually look after the slaves they "liberate" and show them what the new life they are being thrust into will be like before abandoning them, but what does this mean for the slaves still within the Amarr Empire. Your attacks cause a three-fold response upon the Empire. Military forces of course strike in retaliation for these raids, in attempt to rescue their property stolen away by pirates, which leads to a widening of the conflict. Your attacks reinforce the defences, restrain the liberties of the slaves already within the Empire, securing them from attack, which in turn leads to a poorer quality of life for these slaves, as well as building up more defences to secure against these "freedom-fighters". But most importantly, what does it do for the anti-slavery movement within the Amarr Empire itself. It causes fear of the "freedom-fighters", it causes slave holders to realise the beast that lies within their slave, and why their slaves need enlightenment. To all freedom fighters, I challange you do not oppose slavery with your actions, you push it to a position further from your own goal with every raid. I accept your title of Freedom Fighter, because that is exactly what you are doing. Fighting Freedom. Ikar Kaltin.
Rudy Metallo Minmatar G.H.O.S.T	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:14:00 - [2] Why do we resort to violent measures? a) Ammarrians are blinded by their "faith", and hence impossible to reason with, so we are forced to resort to more drastic measures. b) We can kill far more of you than you can enslave of us. c) A life as a free Minmatar is better than any life among Amarrian ignorance. d) If you're "enlightenment" includes the teaching of our brothers that slavery is to good ends, then your enlightenment can jump off a bridge.
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:14:00 - [3] Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 09/01/2007 12:12:57 You must have a very long tongue, to be able to tie such knots around the truth with it. Fact is, there is NO "anti-slavery" movement within the Amarr empire. Such movements come from Gallente and Matari diplomats and activists, men and women who still believe that changing such a decrepit and archaic system from within is possible. Another fact is, what we offer to the people freed from your slave convoys, ships and stations is the freedom of choice. Something they lack utterly while under your yoke. Once transported to a safe location where your slavers can't grab them immediately, they are counseled, offered provisions and means to continue whichever path they deem suits them. Some of them move back to the Republic or the Federation to seek employment and new lives where they are their own masters. Others choose to stay with us, their liberators. Many of these ex-slaves in fact opt to join up as crew on our ships and thus help liberate others, less fortunate than them. If some, for whatever mad reason, would choose to return to Amarr space and their masters... we will mourn their choice, but will not stop them. But whatever their choice may be, the bottom line is that they have the freedom to make one! And that's what we are fighting for.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:15:00 - [4] Or they could do the exact opposite and ramp up their campaigns. Increase the cost of slavery to such a degree that the Amarr are forced to abandon the pretense of enlightment for slaves because it won't be cheap labour any more.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:18:00 - [5] I am afraid you are mistaken,there is an anti-slavery movement. And you do not give the slaves freedom, you give them YOUR version of freedom, you impose your ideas of morality nd beliefs upon them....sound familiar? And the cost of slavery shall never reach that point, the more you attack the more entrenched the ideal becomes. Slavery can never be removed by violence, and I find it amusing that only the minmitar do not see this.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I am afraid you are mistaken,there is an anti-slavery movement. And you do not give the slaves freedom, you give them YOUR version of freedom, you impose your ideas of morality nd beliefs upon them....sound familiar? And the cost of slavery shall never reach that point, the more you attack the more entrenched the ideal becomes. Slavery can never be removed by violence, and I find it amusing that only the minmitar do not see this. Time will tell.
Meklon Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I am afraid you are mistaken,there is an anti-slavery movement. And you do not give the slaves freedom, you give them YOUR version of freedom, you impose your ideas of morality nd beliefs upon them....sound familiar? The slaves we free are generally of Matari creed anyway Ikar, so how is returning a Minmatar slave to his own people and his own ways OUR version of freedom? We do not IMPOSE our ideas of morality and beliefs upon them, we return them to the beliefs they once had before you enslaved them or enslaved their ancestors. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:25:00 - [8] Yes their ancestors...you are taking these slaves....introducing them to a world they know nothing off, brain washing them with ideals tht mean little to them....nd you say we are the ones at fault? These matari have been born and raised in the Amarrian way and are not of your matari creed anymore
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Nekumi on 09/01/2007 12:26:37 Last time I checked you guys where the ones with the Vitoc Ikar, not the Ushra'Khan.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:33:00 - [10] This is little more than the pot and kettle from the Amarr. It is an argument doomed to fail from the start. You want us to admit we are wrong for returning slaves to 'our version' of freedom then you have to grow a pair and admit your people are as vile and evil for doing this in the first place. This is one large mess that you Amarr started. Never forget that. No Matari asked your ilk to come to our world all those centuries ago and start enslaving people to rob them of their culture and introduce them to yours for your own sake. Us freedom fighters are simply the legacy of your peoples errors doing what we feel is right by setting things to the way they should have been before your people destroyed our civilisation due to intollerance and fear of something not like you. Make sure you remember that every time you hear of a slave transport going down in flames. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:36:00 - [11] I am not calling the kettle black....I am merely pointing out the futility of the method you employ.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I am not calling the kettle black....I am merely pointing out the futility of the method you employ. The slaves they've freed might disagree with you. Just because you make things harder doesn't mean it's futile.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I am not calling the kettle black....I am merely pointing out the futility of the method you employ. The slaves they've freed might disagree with you. Just because you make things harder doesn't mean it's futile.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:33:00 - [14] well...well...well, interesting. You claim you give the slaves the choice of freedom, then how do you explain the sale of 20 freed slaves to myself, with the transaction taking place at UNITY station? And you claimed you were doing it for their freedom, whereas in fact its just for profit!
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin well...well...well, interesting. You claim you give the slaves the choice of freedom, then how do you explain the sale of 20 freed slaves to myself, with the transaction taking place at UNITY station? And you claimed you were doing it for their freedom, whereas in fact its just for profit! If that's the best argument you can bring here, I feel sorry for you. One slaver is as bad as another. As long as they're being shot, who cares.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:41:00 - [16] I was merly pointing out latest developments, and besides my argument has been made above. If you do not agree with it then cry me a river..... I find it fascinating that Ushrakhan are facilitating the transfer of freed slaves back to the Empire.
Octavinus Augustus	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Nekumi Increase the cost of slavery to such a degree that the Amarr are forced to abandon the pretense of enlightment for slaves because it won't be cheap labour any more. I thought recent previous posts on this question has made it clear that we Amarr does not use slavery because it is "cheap" labor. I acknowledge however, that not all may have read those posts, so I will give a short recap here. If cheap labor was the reason we would either employ robots or use an even simpler approach of setting our slaves free, offer them jobs and then pay them such small wages that they'd be no less enthralled than they are today - with no means for leaving. Their "freedom" would remain limited to this: A choice between cheap labor and starvation. Their lot would resemble that of the planetbound masses of the socalled Minmatar Republic. Instead we keep slaves to enlighten them. We keep slaves that we may educate them in the proper ways. We keep slaves to teach them the proper ways of GOD. We keep slaves out of love for the peoples of this galaxy and for the greater good of all. Another point often raised by the Minmatar terrorist freedom fighters are that the slaves they "free" are happy to be "freed". So would any kid be pleased for not having to go to school - but that would not justifying denying our children their education, would it? Furthermore, as with any destruction of spaceships a percentage of the cargo is inevitably destroyed. Let us consider the slaves killed in this way. Are they happy? The socalled "Freedom Fighters" are nothing but terrorists and pirates and should be dealt with as such! If vengeance does not reach them in this life, then it surely will be when, in death, their deeds are accounted for and they face the verdict of GOD.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Nekumi Increase the cost of slavery to such a degree that the Amarr are forced to abandon the pretense of enlightment for slaves because it won't be cheap labour any more. I thought recent previous posts on this question has made it clear that we Amarr does not use slavery because it is "cheap" labor. I acknowledge however, that not all may have read those posts, so I will give a short recap here. If cheap labor was the reason we would either employ robots or use an even simpler approach of setting our slaves free, offer them jobs and then pay them such small wages that they'd be no less enthralled than they are today - with no means for leaving. Their "freedom" would remain limited to this: A choice between cheap labor and starvation. Their lot would resemble that of the planetbound masses of the socalled Minmatar Republic. Instead we keep slaves to enlighten them. We keep slaves that we may educate them in the proper ways. We keep slaves to teach them the proper ways of GOD. We keep slaves out of love for the peoples of this galaxy and for the greater good of all. Another point often raised by the Minmatar terrorist freedom fighters are that the slaves they "free" are happy to be "freed". So would any kid be pleased for not having to go to school - but that would not justifying denying our children their education, would it? Furthermore, as with any destruction of spaceships a percentage of the cargo is inevitably destroyed. Let us consider the slaves killed in this way. Are they happy? The socalled "Freedom Fighters" are nothing but terrorists and pirates and should be dealt with as such! If vengeance does not reach them in this life, then it surely will be when, in death, their deeds are accounted for and they face the verdict of GOD. This is a misdirection pure and simple and I've read those messages and not commented on them until now. If the technology for robot servitors was available it would be used. If it was purely about finding God, then working Matar to death, using drugs and animals to keep them working themselves to death, would be completely unnecessary. Why does servicing the Amarr people bring them closer to God? Prosletyze all you want but it doesn't change the facts that you are trapped in tradition and self-delusion. Your economy is built on the backs of slave labour pure and simple, and it would fail if they where not there. People dying during an attempt to free them is an acceptable loss. Freedom-Fighter or Terrorist, I don't care what you call them. It's a label. It's what they do that I support.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Nekumi People dying during an attempt to free them is an acceptable loss. Try telling that to little Catiz. She's a young Brutor living on my plantation. Her parents were brutally killed by terrorists while being transported to a new assignment. In the Republic, a life of destitution would have awaited her. Luckily for her though, I have taken responsibility for her upbringing. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Nekumi People dying during an attempt to free them is an acceptable loss. Try telling that to little Catiz. She's a young Brutor living on my plantation. Her parents were brutally killed by terrorists while being transported to a new assignment. In the Republic, a life of destitution would have awaited her. Luckily for her though, I have taken responsibility for her upbringing. Have her open comms with me anytime Mr. Blake, I'd be happy to talk to her.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Nekumi People dying during an attempt to free them is an acceptable loss. Try telling that to little Catiz. She's a young Brutor living on my plantation. Her parents were brutally killed by terrorists while being transported to a new assignment. In the Republic, a life of destitution would have awaited her. Luckily for her though, I have taken responsibility for her upbringing. Have her open comms with me anytime Mr. Blake, I'd be happy to talk to her. So you can attempt to pollute her pure, innocent mind with your half-baked ideas on freedom and your post-human deviancies? No chance. What sort of guardian would I be if I were to expose her to perverts like you? Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Meklon Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:38:00 - [22] ..and what will be her fate Rodj, if she upsets you or makes a mistake? Will she be placed in one of your Torture Chambers in the same manner Archbishop "educated" his ill-behaved slaves? -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Meklon ..and what will be her fate Rodj, if she upsets you or makes a mistake? Will she be placed in one of your Torture Chambers in the same manner Archbishop "educated" his ill-behaved slaves? I am not aware of Archbishop using inappropriate methods to chastise any of his slaves. As the head of the SPCS (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Slaves) such acts would be unthinkable. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:40:00 - [24] Notice the mindset of the Matari...again their first instinct, their first thought is a violent one...yet another example to all slave holders.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Meklon ..and what will be her fate Rodj, if she upsets you or makes a mistake? Will she be placed in one of your Torture Chambers in the same manner Archbishop "educated" his ill-behaved slaves? Does it matter? She's a slave. Treat a slave ill or well, it's still a slave. Let's be clear here, this isn't about human rights, this is about slavery.
Octavinus Augustus	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Nekumi Have her open comms with me anytime Mr. Blake, I'd be happy to talk to her. Although I would never presume to tell master Blake what to do, I would seriously discourage such a move. Would it be good for the poor girl to be told that the loss of her parents was an "acceptable" loss and that she should be grateful for the likes of you killing off her family? Yet, I doubt this logic would seem fit to you. I present you with logical, reasonable arguments why we use slavery to educate those around us. Your counter argument seems to be based mainly on the concept that "Amarr are inherently wrong". Do you honestly think it is cheaper for the Amarr to feed a slave, to clothe him, to house him, to educate him, to provide healthcare for him, to care for him throughout his life than it would be to simply set him "free" and then pay him a meager payment for his services? And if he should fall sick simply replace him with another "free" man - leaving him destitute, sick, uneducated and without even hope. No, Mr Nekumi, we do what we do because we care. The terrorists on the other hand, look a lot to me like simple pirates looking for a "reason" to quiet their conscience.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Notice the mindset of the Matari...again their first instinct, their first thought is a violent one...yet another example to all slave holders. Are you calling me Matari? If so, you're mistaken.
Octavinus Augustus	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Nekumi Does it matter? She's a slave. Treat a slave ill or well, it's still a slave. Let's be clear here, this isn't about human rights, this is about slavery. Then slavery is simply a label you put on people. You care more of wether they carry this label than you do wether they have a good quality of life. The Amarr see things otherwise. We care for the well being of those in our care.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:52:00 - [29] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 09/01/2007 14:49:29 Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Meklon ..and what will be her fate Rodj, if she upsets you or makes a mistake? Will she be placed in one of your Torture Chambers in the same manner Archbishop "educated" his ill-behaved slaves? Does it matter? She's a slave. Treat a slave ill or well, it's still a slave. Let's be clear here, this isn't about human rights, this is about slavery. And you are also a slave - to your incoherent notions and foolish emotions. Or as Jade Constantine might put it, you are a slave of the post-humanist meme complex. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Originally by: Nekumi Have her open comms with me anytime Mr. Blake, I'd be happy to talk to her. Although I would never presume to tell master Blake what to do, I would seriously discourage such a move. Would it be good for the poor girl to be told that the loss of her parents was an "acceptable" loss and that she should be grateful for the likes of you killing off her family? Yet, I doubt this logic would seem fit to you. I present you with logical, reasonable arguments why we use slavery to educate those around us. Your counter argument seems to be based mainly on the concept that "Amarr are inherently wrong". Do you honestly think it is cheaper for the Amarr to feed a slave, to clothe him, to house him, to educate him, to provide healthcare for him, to care for him throughout his life than it would be to simply set him "free" and then pay him a meager payment for his services? And if he should fall sick simply replace him with another "free" man - leaving him destitute, sick, uneducated and without even hope. No, Mr Nekumi, we do what we do because we care. The terrorists on the other hand, look a lot to me like simple pirates looking for a "reason" to quiet their conscience. And yet again more misdirection. My points are based on the concept that "Amarr are inherently wrong"? I didn't say that, even if it is true. Explain to me how working anyone to death is education in spirituality? If it is such a spiritual exercise, why is it only reserved for those who have been subjugated or punished. If the Amarr Empire has the technology for cheap robot labour why doesn't it set up religious communes for teaching everyone about your God. Surely, if such a thing existed you wouldn't need to worry about clothing, housing or food because your super magic robot armies would tend to your every need. You enslave people because it is engrained into your collective consciousness because at one time it was a viable and easy economic position for your government. You are still lost in that self-delusion. And it's Ms. Nekumi, thank you very much.

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