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Kiyano
Caldari Star Fraction Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.11 21:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sorela There are so many reasons to dislike it.
I guess my real reserve is along the lines of the fact that we need a limit on how far you can boost something. Tanking resistances are already stupid even without rigs. I can't even fathom how bad rigs are going to make it. Then you've got boosters and etc etc. They need to cool it for a while on anything that gives a bonus to anything at all.
I have the feeling revelations probably pushed things even more out of whack than they already were and we havn't even got a clue yet where the balance will end up. Talking about something like heat anytime in the next 6 months is pushing it.
What you've got to consider is that first, boosters aren't going to be that common, as they're limited to certain parts of space and have considerable draw backs. Secondly you say tanking will be made stupid with heat, well ok sure thats possible... but if your opponent puts his power into his tank, and you put your power into your weapons it should balance it to exactly what it is now, making 0 difference. At least thats the way i see it.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2007.01.12 00:40:00 -
[32]
Random heat related thoughts:
Heat could potentially be used as a way to limit the number of different actions a person can take in a given period of time. Sorta like how Action Points are often used in some turn based games. Limiting the rate at which useful commands can be given, can help slow the pace of combat, and ensure that people have time to think (and plan their next move).
Any form of heat interface really needs to be simple. Either a set of sliders, or maybe a dot in the middle of a triangle, or something similar. Please do not use the right-click menu for heat.
Heat could also be used in conjunction with subsystem targetting to create weakspots. Having all heat focused in a particular subsystem, could make that subsystem more vulnerable to attack.
Limiting heat to T3 modules could be an interesting method of making T3 different, as well as a way to create a learning curve. Sinc T3 won't be available to people right away, they won't have to learn how heat works until after they've played for a while. |
Venkhar Krard
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Posted - 2007.01.12 13:11:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Venkhar Krard on 12/01/2007 13:14:04 Heat is a bad idea. We already have combat boosters that boost one aspect of the ship for some time, lowering the others. We dont need more overpowered ship-module-implant-booster-heat combinations to balance.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.12 13:46:00 -
[34]
It seems most missed teh fact that major changes will be to avoid blob warfare. That means no lag issues and no more death in 5 sec issues.
Heat is the openning door for tech 3.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Dai Sune
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Posted - 2007.01.24 11:36:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Dai Sune on 24/01/2007 11:35:21
Originally by: Serendipity007 IMHO, heat should never be a problem in the cold vaccum of space. Heat-based features should be reserved for the Mechwarrior universe and their mechs.
Any ship that operated in space away from any star could very easily vent any heat out into space.
Quite the opposite . There is nothing to convect the heat too... so you have to rely on radiation only. Vaccum is cold but it also lacks molecules to bounce off your ship and average out the heat. After all we keep things warm or cold by putting them in thermal flasks... flasks which are vaccum sealed.
Also are we sure they are talking about thermal heat? After all it is called Heat(tm)... it talks about being able to overload defensive systems... sounds more like the ability to 'divert all power to the shields'
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JonasML
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Posted - 2007.02.26 11:38:00 -
[36]
Not sure about how it will affect fleet warfare, but it would be nice to have a more immediate way to modify the ship in response to whatever I run into. this would be very good in exploration, where 1 minute you might need a really good damage, or better tracking, and the next a very strong tank (ever run into a 1500 dmg smartbomb installation?). Also, can we please stop referring to it as actual heat? it stated in the dev piece I read that it is a way of shifting power ( ie boosting) to different mods; let's leave it at that, and enough cluttering with the attempts at scientific explanation.
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Sieges
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Venkhar Krard Edited by: Venkhar Krard on 12/01/2007 13:14:04 Heat is a bad idea. We already have combat boosters that boost one aspect of the ship for some time, lowering the others. We dont need more overpowered ship-module-implant-booster-heat combinations to balance.
/signed.
Also, let's say that someone is shooting me with their "guns at 11" so I decide to turn my shields up to "11". They might be doing more damage with each shot, but I am providing more resistance (and both of us are potentially damaging ourselves with "heat"). The battle will still be over quickly, possibly even more quickly than it is today (if we are both causing self-inflicted damage).
I wish they would focus on Lag before anything else. -- 2ó |
swoj
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.04.12 17:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
You're not going to get a "solid reason" until we get some solid information. OTOH, there's no reason to be more than cautiously optimistic until we get some solid information either.
I believe the OP is trying to establish why people are so against it when there is no solid information on how it will work. Most people seem to be making their own conclusions on how it will work and making a decision on whether they like it or not rather than basis opinion on facts.
Originally by: Zaribeth more ways to kill people faster in fleet battles are welcome. Would decrease killing time from 10sec to 5sec... I dont like the heat system they are talking about developing for eve. i say fix the other problems with combat first then if the comunity wants it, implement the heat system :)
As far as I am aware, the Devs have said that equipment will have heat limitations (with T3 being better with heat), so while you can crank up heat to modules, there is a chance they will break. So a possible scenario is that your fleet kills two or three ships quickly, then get's toasted as most of your guns have broken.
As for implementation, I'm thinking that a triangle based slider would be best, allowing power levels to be adjusted between high, med and low slots. Could make for interesting tactical choices... ramp up power to the guns, but that gives a risk that your cloak will break.
Of course, time will tell :)
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Sieges
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zaribeth I dont like the heat system they are talking about developing for eve. i say fix the other problems with combat first then if the comunity wants it, implement the heat system :)
Yes. Agreed! -- 2ó |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ikvar
Originally by: Serendipity007 Heat should never be a problem in the cold vaccum of space.
You'd think so.
As far as I can tell, the vaccum of space is cold, COLD, but the problem is, there is no medium out there by which the heat can transfer off of a surface, so you have to get clever and make it want to leave that surface.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.04.12 18:45:00 -
[41]
I've heard of this heat thing.
I don't know much about it as can't afford EON magazine, because well for someone that is bankrupt it just costs to much.
From what I gather here it sounds a lot like the old Battletech system in some ways. Perhaps more complex than Battlestech was but essentially from what folks are posting using stuff generates heat.
I assume the ship can dissipate so much heat in a given time frame then beyond that it builds up and can start affecting different systems.
In Battletech for instance high heat can affect your speed, can set off ammunition explosions, can cause pilot damage (though of course we'd need stats seperate from our ships to do this), and ultimately if it gets to 30 if nothing else kills your mech completely shut it down.
If this is the case I hope they include heat sink rigs or modules that will help us get rid of heat more efficiently.
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Barbarellas Daughter
Lonely Barbarella
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Posted - 2007.04.12 19:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon It seems most missed teh fact that major changes will be to avoid blob warfare. That means no lag issues and no more death in 5 sec issues.
Heat is the openning door for tech 3.
Hm, i always thought heat will increase lag because of more calculations to do. But i dont know anything about how that all works, so im probably wrong
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.04.12 19:49:00 -
[43]
Having debates around something you don't know anything about except for nominal things is a bit pointless, isn't it?
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Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.12 20:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zeko Rena Edited by: Zeko Rena on 11/01/2007 07:27:54 Surely a spaceship can just vent the hot air into space... and surely there is no risk of fire since theres no air to actully fuel the fire unless its in the*****pit which there isnt on EVE anyway
Its not the air that gets hot. Its the components of the ships themselves. In order to remove heat, you need a medium of transfer. Water, cryogenic fluids, or radiator fins that leach heat away from the main body like heat sinks. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected]) |
Morfane
The IMorral MAjority Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.12 20:46:00 -
[45]
I always sort of envisioned this as separate capacitors for each system on the ship: one for guns, one for shields, one for armor, one for mwd/ab, etc etc.
Where "heat" would come in is with main capacitor in which you would supply cap to various systems when needed. The more you put from the main battery into the system batteries, the more heat you generate, and the worse off various stats are (cap regen, shield regen, optimal range, whatever).
I am against this idea because I think it might possibly make combat to "busy", and I am for this idea because it would be easy to fix nos (shield cap nos, weapon cap nos, multisystem nos, etc).
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Donathan Slade
Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.04.12 20:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Serendipity007 IMHO, heat should never be a problem in the cold vaccum of space. Heat-based features should be reserved for the Mechwarrior universe and their mechs.
I agree with this, simple Physics.
If they were going to do a "weapon heat" that would screw over everybody who uses guns and make everybody use nos/drone or missile boats. hehe
Simple, do not add heat when it doesn't make sense and other things should be fixed.
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Donathan Slade
Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.04.12 21:02:00 -
[47]
Ships are already limited to enough variables such as cap, recharge, sheilds, shield recharge, cpu, power grid, and other things. Combat in PvP lags enough for people with older computers such as myself.
Somebody mentioned that ships have internal parts, well. This is already handled by the cpu/powergrid they use with the "heat" they would generate. And if heat affects weapons or pops pople, combat will end faster with the lag than anything.. It would again favor more the people without lag to be able to avoid heat..
Heat will just ruin the pvp aspect of the game. As well as the entire balance of the game.
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Lukas Rox
Torchwood Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.13 09:27:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Lukas Rox on 13/04/2007 09:31:40 Heat (as far as EON says) is not intended to be a offensive ship capability or something you have to worry about all the time. It's intended for short term improvement in defense as in: you are in a hauler and pirates try to gank you. You overload your afterburner/MWD and try to reach a gate. You hit the gate, jump with 50% struct, but on the other side it comes out that your MWD blew up a series of modules because it overheated your ship. And yes we talk about destruction of mods, not just damaging them. Would you try to repair a CPU that was burnt out because of overclocking? And just as in an overclocked PC, rarely only CPU burns out. In most cases it kills the MOBO and sometimes even power supply - thus a Shield Booster could destroy your Gist-A Type shield boost amplifiers, Domination shield hardeners etc. But, one or two destroyed mods is less of a problem if entire ship blew up and took most of them - so Heat is intended to be this last-thing-you-can-do-to-survive-a-sticky-situation.
Tech III will use ancient technology to help cope with heat - so t3 modules will not be impressive in normal mode, but in overloaded mode they will rock (and you will be able to overload them longer than t1 and t2 mods). Tech III is making use of the COSMOS items and skills that used to be useless before - just like Hacking is now used to do Tech II invention, Archaeology is bound to be the way to get t3 invention. --- http://eve.interkam.pl/eveships
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Del Narveux
Obsidian Angels Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.13 10:34:00 -
[49]
Reasons Im really skeptical about heat:
1. Drones are already overpowered, I think this would just make them more uber since presumably they wouldnt generate heat or anything. TBH this smells like yet another turret nerf, because apparently turrets dont suck enough compared to missles and drones already.
2. Twitch factor. CCP loves to say Eve isnt supposed to be a twitch based game but it sounds like the winner of a fight is gonna be whoever can shunt his modules the fastest? This seems wrong, particularly when the cluster is as laggy as its become.
3. How is this gonna affect NPCers? I mean I can see some of the points about how it could be good for small gang combat because things happen somewhat quickly (<5 minutes), but NPCers have to be tanked out to last like 30 minutes nonstop on some missions. Maybe this would benefit them too for short periods or whatever, I just dont wanna see it become a stealth nerf for long term 'steady state' fights. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.04.13 12:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sorela I guess my real reserve is along the lines of the fact that we need a limit on how far you can boost something.
A max boosting limit is obviously something needed, and there's no reason to think there won't be. There's no indicaton yet even that the "boost" options will be a continuous option, rather than simply on/off at a fixed percentage.
Originally by: Sorela Tanking resistances are already stupid even without rigs.
Well, the whole thing about heat is that it's supposed to be able to generate stupid performance boosts. The key balance to that is that you risk blowing up your modules, and the longer you try and sustain it, the greater the chance that you will.
A hardener boosted to 75% would be a powerful boost, but kinda risky if theres a 50% chance of the module having blown up by the 2nd cycle. 50% hardening for the whole fight is better than 75% for half the fight then 0% for the other half.
Originally by: Del Narveux 1. Drones are already overpowered, I think this would just make them more uber since presumably they wouldnt generate heat or anything. TBH this smells like yet another turret nerf, because apparently turrets dont suck enough compared to missles and drones already
The drones may not generate heat, but they also wouldn't have an "overdrive" option. One thing the E-ON article suggested is that a setup that works now, will still work exactly the same under heat if you run the modules in "normal" mode, with no heat problems. You'll only have to worry about heat if you overcharge the modules.
Originally by: Del Narveux 2. Twitch factor. CCP loves to say Eve isnt supposed to be a twitch based game but it sounds like the winner of a fight is gonna be whoever can shunt his modules the fastest? This seems wrong, particularly when the cluster is as laggy as its become.
There's a difference between "twitch" gaming and making tactical decisions during combat. From what I've seen, heat isn't going to be something you flip on and off in a "twitch" manner, it's something you hit once when you're in deep trouble. The skill in using heat will be in knowing when you're in deep enough to mak the risk worth it.
Originally by: Del Narveux 3. How is this gonna affect NPCers?
Well, given that non-overcharged setups should be the same as they are now, it shouldn't affect the 'steady state' tanks. The thing with high level missions is that often you can't tank the full spawn (unless you're using riduclous faction modules), so it becomes about being able to tank until you kill the damage dealers, then sustain-tank the rest of the spawn. Heat may let the mission-runner boost his tank for a cycle or two in order to reach that break-even point, or give him the extra few seconds to kill the warp scramblers.
Originally by: Donathan Slade Somebody mentioned that ships have internal parts, well. This is already handled by the cpu/powergrid they use with the "heat" they would generate. And if heat affects weapons or pops pople, combat will end faster with the lag than anything.. It would again favor more the people without lag to be able to avoid heat..
The "heat" in heat should really be viewed as "excess heat". It will only become a problem if you try and overcharge your modules. Unless you're very daring (or very silly), activating overcharge modes probably won't enter into it until near the end of a fight anyway, when it becomes clear you're going to die anyway, so risking the module loss isn't an issue. It will extend the end-game portion of the fight, and means the loser has something more to do than just sit there and wait to die. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
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Sieges
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Posted - 2007.04.13 19:28:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sieges on 13/04/2007 19:31:26 If must have Heat introduced in the game, why not just have it only apply to Tech 3 ships and mods? It would make them completely different from today's ships/mods.
EDIT: Tech 3 mods would only be able to be overcharged on a Tech 3 ship - not Tech 1 and Tech 2
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Citizen X
Domination.
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Posted - 2007.04.13 19:36:00 -
[52]
Here is a silly idea. Lets get the existing game working properly before we add more content. If you cant 20 v 20 pvp then the game is broke and new features would be, well, pointless.
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