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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5549
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Posted - 2015.11.28 07:02:51 -
[1] - Quote
From Reddit, not the best source, but ...
rederic wrote:Actual Rorqual Fix from EVE Down Under
* Fighter Size Mining Drones * Transform to protect mining vessels "they'll immobilize them, but they'll be immune to damage for 5 minutes." * More, but have said too much already. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3uiujv/actual_rorqual_fix_from_eve_down_under/ |
Pantaira
Kraken Exploration and Janitorial Services The Bastion
0
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Posted - 2015.11.28 09:51:55 -
[2] - Quote
Yep - it's crap-tastic. Does CCP realise how mining actually works? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5549
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Posted - 2015.11.28 10:31:05 -
[3] - Quote
Pantaira wrote:Yep - it's crap-tastic. Does CCP realise how mining actually works? I think CEO Hilmar P+¬tursson understands mining more than CCP Fozzie, but Hilmar isn't a developer. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1683
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Posted - 2015.11.28 12:41:04 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah, saw that last night. Apparently there is more but if these were the big ideas I'm not impressed at all. I'd be fine not changing anything and using my rorq for an expensive mining booster if I could jump it more than 3 systems away ><
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
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Mr Abelardo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.11.28 14:00:20 -
[5] - Quote
Stupid changes
they really want rorqual in the belt...
better allow it to hsec instead that crap idea
and fix that jump range |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1683
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Posted - 2015.11.28 14:07:26 -
[6] - Quote
Mr Abelardo wrote: they really want rorqual in the belt...
I think it's more that they don't want to allow off-grid boosting anywhere, and the Rorqual/Orca don't really cause an issue for off-grid boosting so they don't know what to do with them. They'll say "more risk is better for content" though.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5549
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Posted - 2015.11.28 14:43:17 -
[7] - Quote
It won't incentivize me to use my Rorqual in a belt, though it will incentivize to finally take the poor old thing out and shoot it (sell it).
Immobility was the exact opposite of what I proposed, but I'm not really surprised of the direction CCP is taking, giving the incoming nerfs to all other capitals, and changes to EWAR. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1683
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Posted - 2015.11.28 15:05:11 -
[8] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:It won't incentivize me to use my Rorqual in a belt, though it will incentivize to finally take the poor old thing out and shoot it (sell it).
Immobility was the exact opposite of what I proposed, but I'm not really surprised of the direction CCP is taking, giving the incoming nerfs to all other capitals, and changes to EWAR.
Yeah, now that we can compress in a POS, why not just make the core used for instant compression only. That seems to be the biggest issue. If you want to put rorqs in belts, then remove the core and just give the damn thing the bonuses for the links. Immobility is the MAIN reason people don't want to boost from a belt. I have NO problem taking an orca into a belt to provide boosts. Maybe the issue is that the rorq will just jump away whenever someone hops into a system and there is no way to catch them.....oh but carriers die ratting all the time?
Really hoping for details on this that make me want to not sell mine immediately, well if anyone would want it after these changes that is.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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The Renner
Canadian Operations Yulai Federation
62
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Posted - 2015.11.30 08:52:23 -
[9] - Quote
I originally bought a rorqual back in 2011 to use as a poor mans JF, sadly its not even good for that now with its crap jump range and no fatigue bonus. With the removal of offgrid mining boosting the rorq is going to be in bad shape. If CCP wants people putting them anywhere near belts they are going to have to remove the siege requirement for boosts/compressing at the very least. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5552
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Posted - 2015.11.30 18:11:07 -
[10] - Quote
The Renner wrote:I originally bought a rorqual back in 2011 to use as a poor mans JF, sadly its not even good for that now with its crap jump range. Ya, this actually affected me.
Can't get there from here, unless you go through a choke-point controlled by an enemy.
I thought of building a second Rorqual instead, but gave-up on the whole idea.
Moved my Rorqual into the only lowsec station I could reach, and parked it. Possibly forever. |
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Iyokus Patrouette
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
604
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Posted - 2015.12.01 06:37:22 -
[11] - Quote
what if they gave it a jump drive similar to the command destroyers that only jumps mining vessels? i know nothing about mining so just throwing it out there.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
76
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Posted - 2015.12.01 07:17:20 -
[12] - Quote
Please make a focus group for whatever you do with the rorqual and mining in general. As big a part of the game as it is (from the miner's perspective and the people chasing us) this would be time well spent.
the intel tool we deserve, the intel tool we need
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5557
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Posted - 2015.12.01 07:38:47 -
[13] - Quote
WilliamMays wrote:Please make a focus group for whatever you do with the rorqual and mining in general. As big a part of the game as it is (from the miner's perspective and the people chasing us) this would be time well spent. Check how many times CCP developers have posted in this forum.
The last thread they started, they didn't even participate in.
Notice the sticky thread on industry teams. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1684
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Posted - 2015.12.06 14:10:40 -
[14] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:The Renner wrote:I originally bought a rorqual back in 2011 to use as a poor mans JF, sadly its not even good for that now with its crap jump range. Ya, this actually affected me. Can't get there from here, unless you go through a choke-point controlled by an enemy. I thought of building a second Rorqual instead, but gave-up on the whole idea. Moved my Rorqual into the only lowsec station I could reach, and parked it. Possibly forever. Same here. I wanted to get mine out to null for boosts and it would take 7 jumps now instead of 2. I don't get why they didn't include the jump range in the same update as they did to jump freighters. It holds less and has a very defined purpose, which isn't to participate in wars.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5576
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Posted - 2015.12.07 19:02:10 -
[15] - Quote
The latest Operation Frostline devblog announcing NES deals on skin packages, really hit a nerve me with me because of a picture of an ORE Rorqual.
"We gave you a pretty yellow skin for Rorqual! [That's] something ... technically something!" -- CCP Fozzie |
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
19
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Posted - 2015.12.08 22:39:57 -
[16] - Quote
The first thing they need to do is determine an actual role for the Rorq. Is it a booster, a miner, something else? Right now its a booster. We already have a mining booster ship in the Orca. I don't see why we need 2 mining boosters. Since the Orca is already considered a Command ship then it makes sense to keep that as the booster and change the rorq.
Turning it into a capital sized mining barge would disrupt the flow of minerals quite a bit. It would have to mine massive amounts to be worth using compared to its cost and with that Nullsec would flood the market with materials. This would cause lots of work to retune and balance everything else so this is not a logical step either.
That leaves us with 2 real options. Remove the ship or create an entirely new role for it. With the state of the game right now they may as well remove the ship. Maybe in the future they can create a completely new role for the ship but I don't have any idea what that might be. Trying to shoehorn it into an existing role will just make it or something else worthless.
Just my thoughts, hopefully CCP comes up with something good though. |
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
59
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Posted - 2015.12.09 01:54:19 -
[17] - Quote
I don't see what's wrong with having two mining booster ships, one for high and one for low/null the way we do now. Given the amount of variety in combat boosting ships, 2 really isn't that much. Since each race has a combat specialized ship, which further specializes into armor/shield, and ewar/scout. Then there are t3's which also act as combat boosters, and to a lessor extent bc's as well.
Maybe that could be an idea for the rorqual, maybe instead of being straight up better than the orca, have them specialized to an extent. It would still have to be better in order to be worth it (seeing as how it's a freaking capital), but some sort of specialization beyond that. |
Temugen
Starcade Group Elemental Tide
0
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Posted - 2015.12.09 15:50:45 -
[18] - Quote
Kyra Lee wrote: That leaves us with 2 real options. Remove the ship or create an entirely new role for it. With the state of the game right now they may as well remove the ship. Maybe in the future they can create a completely new role for the ship but I don't have any idea what that might be. Trying to shoehorn it into an existing role will just make it or something else worthless.
Two things about the Rorq.
1) The cost to own a Rorq means the ship will never be used "in belts". No matter what you do with it people will not use it in belts unless there is a legitimate way to save the Rorq or protect it without huge fleets as guards. Until CCP realizes this there will never be a good reason for the Rorq to remain in game.
2) What if the Rorq (and carriers?) had the ability to enter indy core (siege) mode on grid while using a "cloak" that created a cloaked area around the ship so barges (combat ships) could dock, unload, refit, etc. and be able to activate the boost links? People could then use them to jump to random null/ low sec systems and ninja mine then jump out. The only way to find this cloaked cap would be grid search. This would give roaming pvp'ers the opportunity to kill barges and maybe a rorq if they wanted to spend the time. It would also give indy people a way to use the ship for something fun and productive.
Something needs to be done to make the ship usable or make it extremely cheap to produce otherwise it will fade away. CCP just removed the only reason it was in use at this point and that was off grid boosts. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5589
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Posted - 2015.12.09 20:42:43 -
[19] - Quote
Temugen wrote:1) The cost to own a Rorq means the ship will never be used "in belts". No matter what you do with it people will not use it in belts unless there is a legitimate way to save the Rorq or protect it without huge fleets as guards. Until CCP realizes this there will never be a good reason for the Rorq to remain in game. They won't do either of those.
Temugen wrote:2) What if the Rorq (and carriers?) had the ability to enter indy core (siege) mode on grid while using a "cloak" that created a cloaked area around the ship so barges (combat ships) could dock, unload, refit, etc. and be able to activate the boost links? People could then use them to jump to random null/ low sec systems and ninja mine then jump out. The only way to find this cloaked cap would be grid search. This would give roaming pvp'ers the opportunity to kill barges and maybe a rorq if they wanted to spend the time. It would also give indy people a way to use the ship for something fun and productive. CCP won't want things to be too safe.
One could deploy a scan blocker, but I expect that about as far as CCP will want to go.
Temugen wrote:Something needs to be done to make the ship usable or make it extremely cheap to produce otherwise it will fade away. CCP just removed the only reason it was in use at this point and that was off grid boosts. Ya, I really don't know what CCP is thinking. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5591
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Posted - 2015.12.10 15:52:35 -
[20] - Quote
Was just thinking about the Rorqual, and thought it would be good to see even a dev post with bad ideas.
CCP has been silent for over a year now (counting from Fanfest 2014). |
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Karash Amerius
Sutoka
218
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Posted - 2015.12.10 19:41:59 -
[21] - Quote
How about giving it the "immunity to dscan" ability, but also have it extend in a 25km radius, sort of like that deployable we have (that no one uses). Would be very beneficial for all the mining fleet.
Karash Amerius
Operative, Sutoka
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Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
60
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Posted - 2015.12.10 22:20:35 -
[22] - Quote
Karash Amerius wrote:How about giving it the "immunity to dscan" ability, but also have it extend in a 25km radius, sort of like that deployable we have (that no one uses). Would be very beneficial for all the mining fleet.
Very beneficial? I don't think so. The 3-4 most likely locations for miners to be set up in a system pop right up in everyone's probe scanner, after all. Why would someone need to use dscan or probes to find the mining op when he could just warp to the belts and look? Maybe some people would take 30 seconds longer to find the op if they can't use probes... but that isn't going to be enough to convince anyone to lock their rorq into 5 minutes of IC at a time. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5593
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Posted - 2015.12.11 00:35:58 -
[23] - Quote
Dissenting opinion here.
I see potential in a mining ship with considerably higher yield than a Hulk, and moderate but not overwhelming defensive capabilities.
If you are mining in space that hostiles can infiltrate in numbers, you use a disposable fleet of barges and exhumers instead.
But if you believe you have firm control over a mining system in deep null, THEN you bring out the Rorqual and reap the rewards of that control.
And if you believe you have firm control over a system but you are wrong - then this can drive fights.
A reason to actively defend mining operations in nullsec is something that is sorely needed in the game.
If the Rorqual has three times the yield of a Hulk, it becomes (sometimes) worth the risk of fielding it.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
60
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Posted - 2015.12.11 02:52:27 -
[24] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Dissenting opinion here.
I see potential in a mining ship with considerably higher yield than a Hulk, and moderate but not overwhelming defensive capabilities.
If you are mining in space that hostiles can infiltrate in numbers, you use a disposable fleet of barges and exhumers instead.
But if you believe you have firm control over a mining system in deep null, THEN you bring out the Rorqual and reap the rewards of that control.
And if you believe you have firm control over a system but you are wrong - then this can drive fights.
A reason to actively defend mining operations in nullsec is something that is sorely needed in the game.
If the Rorqual has three times the yield of a Hulk, it becomes (sometimes) worth the risk of fielding it.
Does anyone use hulks in null? In my limited experience, everyone just uses skiffs to be able to handle rats more easily. That's why I'm kind of excited, hoping that they do something with the rorq that makes it more appealing to actually take to belts... cause if it's in a belt, I'll fly hulks instead of skiffs and use a rorq in place of a hauler+relying on someone else for the boosts from a POS. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1687
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Posted - 2015.12.11 03:30:53 -
[25] - Quote
I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.12.11 04:58:45 -
[26] - Quote
Rorqual had two good things going on and that was boosting and ore compression. Now boosting role is taken by Orcas and compression is done at POS hence the issue.
Rorqual was supposed to be an industrial capital ship, so why not stick to that concept?
Extend the compression feature and give it a Ships & Modules compression core. Give it some internal lab slots with slightly less bonuses than POS labs (but no fuel block required yay). That would make Rorqual a real industrial capital ship, a mobile hub for barges and indis. |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
60
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Posted - 2015.12.11 13:33:26 -
[27] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps.
Really? My little mining fleet of 4 procurers/skiffs with t2 light drones and 85+ resists will sometimes take 5k+ shield damage before they can kill off rats in lower truesecs. And a single mack would need a few times as long to kill the rats while sporting a fraction of the tank. |
Sim Cognito
Cognito Consortium
11
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Posted - 2015.12.13 14:42:25 -
[28] - Quote
The Rorqual right now has very little function. It is a very cool concept that had potential back when it was released, but real gameplay and recent changes have rendered it largely obsolete. For me it was always the ultimate industrial mining ship and so it remains, but I can't justify actually using it. I have heard many people's opinions and ideas, and have formulated my own set of proposals. Here we go:
Problems
- The Rorqual is only useful for afkPOS-boosting. No gameplay
- Weak, immobile
- Other functions are either very easily substituted by cheaper and more versatile options or just neglected.
- Huge risk, tiny reward
- Industrial Core is a mess.
- Boosting is too afk/POS friendly.
Proposals
- Introduce Capital Mining Drones, that mine the asteroids and eject their load in specialized containers, eliminating travel time considerations and making Capital Tractor Beams an essential part of Rorqual gameplay (micro-management). The overall output should exceed that of a maxed Hulk.
- Tank and RR. It should be a tough nut to crack and able to RR nearby vessels effectively.
- Rat defense. Committing a Rorqual on the field should mean NPCs are no longer a threat, with a bonused flight of conventional combat drones, that do not replace the Capital Mining Drones. (5+5)
- The Industrial Core is an important part, but not the central aspect of the Rorqual. It retains compression functions (albeit highly buffed to compete with POS module), applies significant tank and RR capabilities, with a set up timer of ~10s and a set down timer of ~10s. What this means is, when the Industrial Core is activated, the ship is vulnerable for 10s, likewise when it is deactivated. There is no "cycle", or mandatory duration, but a set-up/set-down timer.
- Separate boosting bonus and Industrial Core.
- Make boosting to require the ship with the links be on grid.
Commentary, Counterarguments
The ship is a Capital, it's slow, it's expensive, it should be able to do things. It is not supposed to be an ultra-Hulk, but that should not mean it should be incapable of mining. The concept should be "Mining Operation Support Hub", which means it needs to be in the Asteroid Belt, with the miners, fending of NPC rats, ensuring no harm is done to weaker exhumers, all the while boosting mining output and contributing its fair share with Capital Mining Drones.
The Industrial Core works in addition, and not as a central part. Think of the Marauder Bastion: It's an important part, but not the end be all of the ship class. When it's activated, it should enable the compression function, and boost the defense to offset its immobility. The reason I separate the boosting bonus from the Core, is because this creates too many problems: The boosting is indispensable, but you can't commit to an immobile Rorqual in a belt. It's a POS sentence for the ship. A 10 second on/off timer is already more than enough, considering that the ship needs to get to warp speed to leave in the first place. I've died in belts in much less time.
Some will argue that this will flood the market with minerals. I don't think it makes a difference. We're talking about an increase of the equivalent 2-3 Hulks per each active Rorqual in the game, by taking their continued bonuses for granted. Remember, when the Rorqual is actually being flown, those bonuses may no longer be there 24/7, like they are now. It needs an actual pilot, to be in the belt, so the boosts can reach the Exhumers. This means attention, actual play, and not AFK multiboxing. Overall, I think it won't make any difference in mineral production, in fact, it may even hurt it a little.
As for multiboxing, considering that the Capital Mining Drones will involve micro-managing with the Capital Tractor Beams (target-tractor-load to Rorqual/Fleet Hangar for hauler or w/e), not unlike shooting rats in a PVE environment, the Rorqual scales horrible for multi-boxing, and thus there is no risk of massive increases of yields for this type of player. Realistically, a multi-boxer with multiple Hulks and hauling, shouldn't be able to micro-manage more than one Rorqual, if at all.
As for server load (tons of extra cans, tons of extra drones), this can be remedied by imposing special conditions for the containers ejected by the drones (maximum number per drone, short duration). The number of drones is a subject that has been difficult for CCP in the past, but I believe that right now an extra 5 drones per Rorqual should prove to be an obstacle. I insist on the concurrency of combat and mining drones in order to justify the Rorqual being there. Having to recall your mining drones to launch your combat drones whenever an emergency occurs just isn't acceptable for a commitment at the level of a Rorqual. Hopefully this is technically feasible, but the upcoming fighter changes are a good sign.
Quote: tl;dr mining fighters that eject containers with tractor micro, industrial core on the sidelines, Rorquals in belts, tank, RR, belts rats not a problem, buff compression, on grid boosting, boost bonus separate from industrial core,
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1687
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Posted - 2015.12.15 14:28:08 -
[29] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:Zifrian wrote:I use macks because I hate can mining and Rorqual cleanup. I could easily handle most rats solo but I have a lot of sps. Really? My little mining fleet of 4 procurers/skiffs with t2 light drones and 85+ resists will sometimes take 5k+ shield damage before they can kill off rats in lower truesecs. And a single mack would need a few times as long to kill the rats while sporting a fraction of the tank. Well, this was in drone space so I'm not sure how it would work elsewhere. I could solo/duo almost anything with small drones. Three BS I had troubles with but if I had three miners out it wasn't an issue.
This was the fit I used. Some more expensive items there but not too bad. I might have had to use an implant to fit, but can't remember.
[Mackinaw, Mack Miner] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster (120 mil) Domination Adaptive Invulnerability Field (77 mil) Basic Explosive Deflection Amplifier Basic Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Acolyte II x5 Mining Drone II x5
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Kiddoomer
Deep Space Exploitation Federal United Battalion of Armed Renegades
80
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Posted - 2015.12.15 16:26:34 -
[30] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:[quote=Amarrchecko][quote=Zifrian] [Mackinaw, Mack Miner] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster (120 mil) Domination Adaptive Invulnerability Field (77 mil) Basic Explosive Deflection Amplifier Basic Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Acolyte II x5 Mining Drone II x5
Where is the Higgs anchor on this dimmit ? :P I agree though that the mackinaw with 1-2 not that cheap modules can manage null sec npc, except some rare battleships.
For the topic, I would like to see the rorqual being able to refine ores and manufacture stuff up to frigates while immobilized, this would be awesome for people not really needing a small pos neither a medium citadel for their daily operations.
A survey scanner tweak and new mining methods: interactive mining
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