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Alizabeth Vea
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
657
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Posted - 2015.12.09 07:35:29 -
[31] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:I don't think you believe they're that weak and empty. I don't think you believe your God is so impotent as to need the abusive compulsion your people practice. But maybe I'm wrong.
Of course not. I am friends with a great many Minmatar like yourself or Rydis, even Feiryred (who I do not talk religion with at all), and God knows how many I am forgetting this time of night, and I am happy to fly with any of them.
My personal opinion is that the best way for the Amarr faith to spread and continue the Reclaiming is to focus on converts. Again, though, I am not a decision maker in the Empire. I'm not actually an Amarr citizen.
My statement was 100% pragmatic analysis of the fastest, least painful way to see that the Minmatar that are currently slaves in the Empire become emancipated. I would be overjoyed to see this happen
And to answer Elmund Egivand. Of course there's an economic consideration. The economic fallout of a mass migration of trillions of people from the Amarr Empire to the Tribes would be a catastrophe. You can trust me on this; I'm Deteis.
The final truth, going back to the original post, is that nothing the Minmatar Militia can do will result in the mass emancipation of the Minmatar in the Empire. I don't care if they take the whole warzone and own it for ten years (and Arrendis, we all know how feasible that is), nothing is going to change the macro situation of slavery in Amarr. It's best to understand what the MinMil is accomplishing, at best: ensuring that they keep enough of the Amarr Navy occupied to prevent a full out invasion of the Minmatar homeworlds. Yes, I know that there's CONCORD and all, but we've seen what can happen there. If the situation ever arises again where a major power is able to make a move, they have to honor the threat of God knows how many crazy trigger happy combat capsuleers forward deployed near the heart of their realm.
Forged in the fires of the forth Delve war, I've been to hell, and I'm back for more, so cap the gas and push back the door, turn fuel to fire, let the monster roar.
Retainer of House Sarum
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
899
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Posted - 2015.12.09 07:46:48 -
[32] - Quote
Of course the Militia won't emancipate all Minmatar. The Pendulum War is designed to maintain the status quo and the regions chosen as battlefronts are backwaters left aside as playgrounds for bored, bloodthirsty and greedy capsuleers with more guns and ammunition than humanity. Anyone who thinks that they can make sweeping changes by being in the Militia is a naive and deluded fool and if he is lucky, he will have all of that burned out of their system after a year.
What happens next is up to them.
Any Minmatar Militia who thinks that they can perhaps save a couple of slaves by interdicting slaver convoys are misinformed. Any slaver worth a damn would traffic their ways OUTSIDE the warzones. They are probably better off being actual pirates operating in any lowsec region that isn't set aside as a warzone or as a 'ganker' camping gates along trade routes. Any slaves who are rescued in the warzone are deliberately put there by someone like Nauplius or etc.
Also, any Minmatar who are serious about the mass emancipation programme has to be reminded that the Republic, though it's much better now that it's under the leadership of the Tribal Council, is far from ready for the emancipation of the trillions of slaves. Seriously, look at the infrastructure put in place and the jobs available and tell me that the Minmatar Republic can handle the strain of having 1/3rd of the MInmatar population in the whole cluster flocking into her borders.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Havohej
Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics
Hedonistic Imperative
142
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Posted - 2015.12.09 08:24:41 -
[33] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:So, who is masochistic enough to try to herd the cats that call themselves 'militia'?
The truly sad part is that, once, the Tribal militia did have such unifying leadership, such strength of personality at the helm that they managed to enforce organization on the herd.
Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.
OOC Forums @ Backstage
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
901
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Posted - 2015.12.09 08:36:25 -
[34] - Quote
Havohej wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:So, who is masochistic enough to try to herd the cats that call themselves 'militia'? The truly sad part is that, once, the Tribal militia did have such unifying leadership, such strength of personality at the helm that they managed to enforce organization on the herd.
I can respect their ability but I do not envy them.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan
Of Questionable Repute
825
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Posted - 2015.12.09 09:45:07 -
[35] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Of course the Militia won't emancipate all Minmatar. The Pendulum War is designed to maintain the status quo and the regions chosen as battlefronts are backwaters left aside as playgrounds for bored, bloodthirsty and greedy capsuleers with more guns and ammunition than humanity. Anyone who thinks that they can make sweeping changes by being in the Militia is a naive and deluded fool and if he is lucky, he will have all of that burned out of their system after a year.
What happens next is up to them.
Any Minmatar Militia who thinks that they can perhaps save a couple of slaves by interdicting slaver convoys are misinformed. Any slaver worth a damn would traffic their ways OUTSIDE the warzones. They are probably better off being actual pirates operating in any lowsec region that isn't set aside as a warzone or as a 'ganker' camping gates along trade routes. Any slaves who are rescued in the warzone are deliberately put there by someone like Nauplius or etc.
Also, any Minmatar who are serious about the mass emancipation programme has to be reminded that the Republic, though it's much better now that it's under the leadership of the Tribal Council, is far from ready for the emancipation of the trillions of slaves. Seriously, look at the infrastructure put in place and the jobs available and tell me that the Minmatar Republic can handle the strain of having 1/3rd of the MInmatar population in the whole cluster flocking into her borders.
Doing the highest level of Agent work, I have cleared out many Amarr slave breeding centers, and recovered quite a few slaves in the process. It can be tough with the heavy energy neutralization and that the slave transports present will warp off if not dealt with quickly. It is with my deepest sadness that I realize only a small portion of the slaves can actually be recovered on an assault on a breeding facility, but they do indeed put them in the warzone. Not only that, but especially when I report to my agent in Helgatild I found that they frequently put these things in our sovereign space. That is alot of nerve. My point however, is that slaves are in fact in the warzone.
As far as the government and economy goes, it isn't like we are going to miss out on doing the right thing, just because it is inconvenient to us, the Minmatar would find a way, they always have.
Not that I think I am making sweeping changes mind you, but this is something I have within my power to do, so I am going to do this alongside my best efforts to strengthen the Republic's economy and image. The Tribal Liberation Force doesn't limit us, it empowers us. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
902
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Posted - 2015.12.09 10:05:55 -
[36] - Quote
Have you ever wondered exactly why the slave breeding camps are there in the first place?
As I mentioned, any slaves found in the warzone are put there deliberately. Liberating them won't change much about the conditions of slaves already inside the more secured Amarr borders.
Also, do not forget what happened the last time the late Empress emancipated slaves 9th generations and up and released them into the Republic. Do the right thing if you must, but do not expect all sunshine and rainbows right afterwards because. Expect stormy seas and expect to drown if unprepared.
The Tribal Liberation Fleet's empowerment was never its purpose. You are just as empowered raiding convoys outside the warzone as a non-militia or as a philanthropist working with the SOE, the Arcology or whoever. You are capsuleer. You are *already* empowered. At least to a point.
At least you realised that the Republic's economic engines need more stoking.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1711
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Posted - 2015.12.09 17:53:55 -
[37] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Hang on, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that they're broken reeds, submissive to the whims of their dreadful masters AND point out the fact that they rose en masse and revolted - per definition.
My point is that they're claiming the process 'isn't done' and 'just needs more time' - they've had time. It clearly didn't have the results they thought it would. And to say at this point 'well, it just needs more time, it'll totally have different results' is ludicrous. |
Alizabeth Vea
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
657
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Posted - 2015.12.09 19:26:23 -
[38] - Quote
Arrendis, I think it would be correct to say that that Amarr do not consider the sunk cost fallacy where slavery is concerned.
Forged in the fires of the forth Delve war, I've been to hell, and I'm back for more, so cap the gas and push back the door, turn fuel to fire, let the monster roar.
Retainer of House Sarum
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
651
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Posted - 2015.12.09 20:15:28 -
[39] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:Arrendis, I think it would be correct to say that that Amarr do not consider the sunk cost fallacy where slavery is concerned.
More broadly, we do not when it concerns the Reclamation of all of God's children, whether through preaching, word, deed, or slavery. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
59
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Posted - 2015.12.09 20:15:30 -
[40] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Kador Ouryon wrote:I won't be able to convince you that it's not the abuse you believe it to be but I do have to somewhat stand with Ms Vea's assessment of the situation. No, you won't. Because they've had their very identities, the identities of their children, grandchildren, their culture and heritage all stolen from them while they've been taught to be obedient, meek little broken pawns.
Perhaps that were the case for those original slaves in the initial few generations. Without delving into the morality and ethics I suppose these newer generations have developed their own sense of culture.
Kador Ouryon wrote: Moreover certainly one of the most expedient ways to see the emancipation of larger slave populations as well as a relative lack punishment would simply be to allow these slaves to complete the period of indoctrination peacefully.
Arrendis wrote:
Because that worked so well for the first thousand years, right? Freed all those slaves right up.
I can't speak for my people. I'm young.... not particularly wise, and my job revolves around putting machines back together not people. I however want to believe that one day the practice will no longer be required. |
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1229
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Posted - 2015.12.10 00:48:45 -
[41] - Quote
And the circle of ignorance and violence surrounding the question of Amarrian slavery continues.
Someone please alert me if any interesting new arguments are made. |
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
43
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Posted - 2015.12.10 02:18:32 -
[42] - Quote
Godliness is the aim of religious studies. The Amarr Empire claims a connection with a higher power. Their people do not reflect the ideology.
Where one perceives oneGÇÖs self a master an opportunity presents itself. Whether it is filled by admiration, apprenticeship, judgement, or slavery: It is for the master to decide.
Mastering God is an oxymoron.
Let us assume that the Amarrian perception of mastery is pursuant, unattainable.
The contrast of master and slave represent the AmarrianGÇÖs relativity to godliness.
Therefore, the masterGÇÖs slave progresses spiritually and scholastically while being religiously sheltered in a godly regime.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1712
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Posted - 2015.12.10 04:26:08 -
[43] - Quote
With all due respect for your traditions, and the sincerity of your beliefs within the Empire - you've yet to offer, in all the time since you first attacked us, a single piece of empirical proof that your deity even exists.
Please excuse me if, in the absence of supporting evidence that there's anything to grow closer to, I find your assertions of spiritual growth hollow, self-serving, and ultimately only fodder and justifications for a system that seeks to continue the dominance and privilege of those already at the top of a highly stratified society. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
5816
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Posted - 2015.12.10 05:07:41 -
[44] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:With all due respect for your traditions, and the sincerity of your beliefs within the Empire - you've yet to offer, in all the time since you first attacked us, a single piece of empirical proof that your deity even exists.
Please excuse me if, in the absence of supporting evidence that there's anything to grow closer to, I find your assertions of spiritual growth hollow, self-serving, and ultimately only fodder and justifications for a system that seeks to continue the dominance and privilege of those already at the top of a highly stratified society.
To be fair, I've not a single empirical piece of evidence in favour of the existence of the Winds. Verin assures me that they aren't real - they're just metaphors or catch-all references to something that lives within the spirit of those that call themselves Caldari. Nonetheless when I stand in the Peaks, strip down to my tunic and try to meditate in the piercing gusts that are habitually found at those elevations, I feel something more than mere hypothermia setting in.
None of us can provide empirical evidence for our beliefs - even those of us who believe nothing, because absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1712
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Posted - 2015.12.10 07:42:15 -
[45] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:None of us can provide empirical evidence for our beliefs - even those of us who believe nothing, because absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
It certainly isn't. But how many of us are presuming to force our beliefs on others, and justifying it purely on 'because my belief says I should'? I'm not going to tell the Amarr they shouldn't believe in God. I don't have that right. And they don't have the right to enslave others in the name of forcing them to believe in God. |
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
43
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Posted - 2015.12.10 08:36:03 -
[46] - Quote
For the concept of a good God the slave must forget its own place in the world. When the slave no longer feels like a slave they are closer to God. Even if they still serve a master. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
474
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Posted - 2015.12.10 09:15:52 -
[47] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:None of us can provide empirical evidence for our beliefs - even those of us who believe nothing, because absence of proof isn't proof of absence. It certainly isn't. But how many of us are presuming to force our beliefs on others, and justifying it purely on 'because my belief says I should'? I'm not going to tell the Amarr they shouldn't believe in God. I don't have that right. And they don't have the right to enslave others in the name of forcing them to believe in God.
You speak of all these rights, from where do they come? Since you are so keen on this absurd empirical positive evidence standard, can you give me empirical evidence that they exist?
If you chose to look at all the signs of God and call them non-empirical, then that is your choice. It is, after all, your prerogative to continue to make poor choices. Of course, it is also your perogative to suffer the consequences of doing so.
The institution of slavery when properly administered has accomplished great good in the universe. It has redeemed many lost people and given them purpose in the universe. It has brought many back into the sphere of all that is good. It is a great and undeserved gift to those who have squandered the earlier gifts of God.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1712
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Posted - 2015.12.10 10:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:You speak of all these rights, from where do they come? Since you are so keen on this absurd empirical positive evidence standard, can you give me empirical evidence that they exist?
Certainly: I exist. I am capable of doing things. Absent any empirical evidence to the contrary, I have the natural right to do anything I am capable of doing. When forming societies, however, we abrogate our natural rights in favor of cooperative mutual benefit. At this point, it can be said that my right to swing my fist ends at your nose.
Quote:
If you chose to look at all the signs of God and call them non-empirical, then that is your choice. It is, after all, your prerogative to continue to make poor choices. Of course, it is also your perogative to suffer the consequences of doing so.
For evidence to be empirical, it must be testable. Show me your evidence, and then show me a consistent test that is, theoretically, able to return a result that disproves your theory. If you cannot do so, your evidence is not empirical.
Quote:
It has brought many back into the sphere of all that is good.
Because murdering infants is good, right?
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Alizabeth Vea
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
659
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Posted - 2015.12.10 13:50:46 -
[49] - Quote
How did we get to murdering infants? Obviously murdering infants is a bad thing, and I have yet to meet any Amarr that would advocate otherwise.
Forged in the fires of the forth Delve war, I've been to hell, and I'm back for more, so cap the gas and push back the door, turn fuel to fire, let the monster roar.
Retainer of House Sarum
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
5817
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Posted - 2015.12.10 16:02:12 -
[50] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:None of us can provide empirical evidence for our beliefs - even those of us who believe nothing, because absence of proof isn't proof of absence. It certainly isn't. But how many of us are presuming to force our beliefs on others, and justifying it purely on 'because my belief says I should'? I'm not going to tell the Amarr they shouldn't believe in God. I don't have that right. And they don't have the right to enslave others in the name of forcing them to believe in God.
Preaching cultural non-interference to the Caldari? Of course I agree with you.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1714
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Posted - 2015.12.10 16:55:16 -
[51] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:How did we get to murdering infants? Obviously murdering infants is a bad thing, and I have yet to meet any Amarr that would advocate otherwise.
Tell that to the children of Starkman Prime. |
Alizabeth Vea
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
659
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Posted - 2015.12.10 17:51:27 -
[52] - Quote
I have yet to meet an Amarr that has anything good to say about that event. I think most of them recognize that it was a failure of the highest magnitude-an atrocity never to be repeated.
Forged in the fires of the forth Delve war, I've been to hell, and I'm back for more, so cap the gas and push back the door, turn fuel to fire, let the monster roar.
Retainer of House Sarum
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
474
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Posted - 2015.12.10 18:23:37 -
[53] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Gaven Lok'ri wrote:You speak of all these rights, from where do they come? Since you are so keen on this absurd empirical positive evidence standard, can you give me empirical evidence that they exist? Certainly: I exist. I am capable of doing things. Absent any empirical evidence to the contrary, I have the natural right to do anything I am capable of doing. When forming societies, however, we abrogate our natural rights in favor of cooperative mutual benefit. At this point, it can be said that my right to swing my fist ends at your nose.
Crude.
How can you possibly make pronouncements about what rights Amarr has or does not have using this definition? It would seem by your own barbaric definition that if we are capable of doing something we have the right to do so.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1720
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Posted - 2015.12.10 18:46:09 -
[54] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:How can you possibly make pronouncements about what rights Amarr has or does not have using this definition? It would seem by your own barbaric definition that if we are capable of doing something we have the right to do so.
Only if you are expressly saying that you place your personal interests over the interests of society. That you, personally, and what you want, are more important than everyone else.
Are you? Are you personally more important than what's best for trillions of people? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1720
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Posted - 2015.12.10 18:52:27 -
[55] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:I have yet to meet an Amarr that has anything good to say about that event. I think most of them recognize that it was a failure of the highest magnitude-an atrocity never to be repeated.
Until it is.
That's the sort of atrocity that's enabled by slavery. That's the sort of atrocity that happens when a savage, warlike people initiate unprovoked violence upon people who have been at peace for a thousand years. Who can't fight back. Who take centuries just to re-learn what 'fighting back' is.
The longest period of peace among any group in New Eden's history.
Cheering in the streets when the Empress and thousands of crew members were murdered in cold blood by Drifters.
Ask yourself: What do you have to do to turn the first event into the second. Who taught us to hate like that? |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1481
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Posted - 2015.12.10 19:31:11 -
[56] - Quote
Not to support any faction squabbles but I am afraid that most of mankind civilizations initiate attacks upon weaker opponents throughout History.
The Amarr of course, and then, the Caldari State and their forced client states, or even the Federation when it comes to serve its hypercapitalistic needs or the Minmatar now indeed, but also in their own past history.
Most of them find justifications and ideals under which it can be deemed as acceptable, or even claimed with fervor by their own denizens out of nationalistic pride, or else.
Naturally, what is acceptable, justified, is merely a matter of debate. Even under the guise of humanism. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
59
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Posted - 2015.12.10 20:14:23 -
[57] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:With all due respect for your traditions, and the sincerity of your beliefs within the Empire - you've yet to offer, in all the time since you first attacked us, a single piece of empirical proof that your deity even exists.
Please excuse me if, in the absence of supporting evidence that there's anything to grow closer to, I find your assertions of spiritual growth hollow, self-serving, and ultimately only fodder and justifications for a system that seeks to continue the dominance and privilege of those already at the top of a highly stratified society.
To be fair to our previous discussion I am not aware having made any statements that indicated whether I found the practice of slavery moral or ethical, for the most part I have attempted to avoid it as best possible so as not to remark on the sad ironies of our peoples historical conflicts. All I believe I added to this discussion was an opinion that I believe will prove the most expedient road to emancipation on a large scale.
You make a great many presumptions about assertions I haven't even made without even considering the great many political opinions surrounding the issue of slavery within the Empire or which I personally support. Moreover you oppose the Minmatar being judged for the sins of their ancestors and judge me for those of mine, an irony that is both saddening and yet amusing.
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morion
Lighting Build
27
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Posted - 2015.12.10 22:10:22 -
[58] - Quote
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:For the concept of a good God the slave must forget its own place in the world. When the slave no longer feels like a slave they are closer to God. Even if they still serve a master.
privy ? |
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
43
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 22:17:13 -
[59] - Quote
I will still win at black jack. |
morion
Lighting Build
28
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Posted - 2015.12.10 22:23:58 -
[60] - Quote
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:I will still win at black jack.
the pot was ZERO :congregation |
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