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Tuxford - Give Eagle the Moa's dronebay back please!

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Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.01.15 09:30:00 - [31] No. It's bad enough that the Caldari BC and BS have large drone bays, they should be something like 10m¦ for BC and 25m¦ for BS ...
Chillshock	Posted - 2007.01.15 09:53:00 - [32] I have to agree to Sokratesz - I was just about to get me a HAC when I realized the potetial of the freaky Drake. That thing is just not right! Haven't checked the other tier2 BC but cummon... And the slight difference in prices... cough Dronbay for any caldari cruiser should not exceed 15m¦ I think. but thats very close to a usable minimum. Anyone who wants more drones has got to train a different species I guess ;)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Ryysa Oh right, so your logic is... Minmatar get one decent hac, let's nerf it to uselessness like the other one. Ever flown vagabond? No. Have any clue how hard it is to kill things? No. Muninn is good for ratting sansha still :o What if i said - remove one turret from zealot, so that people fly sacrilege more? Ever compared vaga and zealot dps? If you think the Vagabond is just "decent" Well then, i dont know what to say. Lets look at all the HAC's. There are four HAC's in the game that do NOT conform to a simple design rule that works for the rest. This design rule is "The HAC does 25% more damage with its primary weapon system than the platform its built on" These HAC's are. Sacriledge: 5% more damage than Maller Vagabond: 56.25% more damage than stabber. Cereberus: 33.3% more damage than the Caracal. Ishtar: 100% more damage than the Vexor Now, the Cerberus is not out of line, its 1 damage bonus. The Sacriledge gains almost nothing over the Maller due to the lack of a turret. The Cereberus shouldnt really be on the list because 33% is one damage bonus, nearly perfectly inline with the caracal. The Ishtar gets a load more drone damage, but loses 25% of its gun damage. The Vagabond is the outlier in guns and gets a whopping 56.25% more damage than the Stabber.[25% damage bonus, and 5 guns over 4, another 25% bonus]. All the rest gain a flat 25% damage bonus over their tech 1 variants in their primary weapon systems. If you start looking at the "one damgae bonus" part and ignore the Ishtar due to it being a drone boat, then you run into the sacriledge and the vagabond being the outliers. The sac at +5% and the vagabond at +56.25%. Also, since you asked for damage between the Vagabond and the Zealot. Vagabond 220mm Barrage/Zealot Heavy Pulse Scorch = [5(1.98/3.38)]/ [4(3.6/5.25)] = 1.0672 Vagabond comes out 6.782% higher in gun damage alone, the Vagabond also has a 25m3 drone bay and the ability to fit a launcher on to further increase this difference Originally by: Cornette The Muninn underpowered?... Yea right My favorite HAC that I Love best of all heavy assault ships. When its fitted with a pure gankage setup including arties and damage/tracking mods. I have an idea, stay away from the Muninn please! The Sacrilege on the other hand that one need help... it has a nice color and... well it has a nice color Yea. That was the "Oh Wait". I hadnt realized when looking at it[well, i had earlier, but had forgotten] that the Muninn got an extra turret over the Rupture, putting it in the same category as the Zealot[though better with arties rather than beams or pulses]. In light of this, the Muninn seems perfectly in line with the rest of the HAC's. It simply isnt as good as an AC boat as the vagabond is due to the vagabond having as much damage as it and being much much faster[with a better falloff bonus] which gets it overlooked. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Anominity hmmm, never actually realised this before, but its all the Tier 2 HAC's which are the sub par ones, I wonder if that has any relevance, but tbh, i would love the below changes: Muninn: Lose the tracking bonus, add a further 5% damage bonus. Deimos: Increase base grid to allow 5 t2 Ions + MWD + Tank (Including 400mm plate) with no fitting mods. Eagle: + 1 Turret. Sacriledge: I am partial to the Missile / Armor Tank bonus idea with possible 4 missile hardpoints (We cannot expect to topple the Cerb by having the same number as them.) 1) Muninn does plenty of damage, the same ratio of damage that the Zealot does over the Omen. 2) The Deimos can already fit t2 ions, MWD, and a tank on it. Adding a 400mm plate? Ridiculous. The Deimos is not bad because of anything that you can do short of making it a WTFSOLOPWNMOBILE. Its bad because the "get really close and dont move" part of blaster fighting can be more easily achieved with better damage with a BC for cheaper. 3) Lord no, the Eagle is great, does plenty of damage, has a tanking bonus and can shoot 200km with its guns. @ 200km you have to hit 3km/s transversal to even have a hope of not getting hit by his guns. Take your eagle and get out far, then destroy those small tackler frigs that are getting on your nerves. Keep them off your friends from 200km away. 4) Yea, this really needs an overhaul. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
DarK STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:12:00 - [35] so if I could do 10dps from 1000km that'd be like omg orsm?
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:14:00 - [36] There is more to ships than damage mods ... Leave the Eagle as it is. If you want defence against close-range ships then use the 2 missile slots or fit it for close range. _______ Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:33:00 - [37] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/01/2007 10:30:30 Originally by: DarK so if I could do 10dps from 1000km that'd be like omg orsm? No, but 160 DPS @ 200km vs frigates its pretty darn handy, and 437 DPS with blasters @ 7.5km optimal with a strong shield tank is no slouch either[though you dont get tackling gear]. This would be equivelent to a 7 low slot Maller able to heavy pulses and a 4 slot tank at the same time[though the eagle does 16% more damage with much better tracking], and is equivelent to a Thorax that instead of getting a damage bonus, got a huge range bonus, a tanking bonus, and powergrid to fit a full rack of neutrons with a full tank[and 7 lows to cram it all in] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Angus McLean If I could get my hands on a 7 low slot sac, I would cry tears of joy and haxxing. I'm dreaming of a 5-4-6 Sac with 5 missile hardpoints and bonuses to missiles and NOS Sorry, the Curse is already filling the role of omgwtfpwnage. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:04:00 - [39] Originally by: Maeltstome Drones arent the primary or even secondary weapon of the caldari... deal with it - cerb does enough damage without drones, so does the eagle. You have no idea of the Eagle's DPS, do you? The Eagle doesn't need a dronebay, it needs a 5th turret. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Maeltstome Drones arent the primary or even secondary weapon of the caldari... deal with it - cerb does enough damage without drones, so does the eagle. You have no idea of the Eagle's DPS, do you? The Eagle doesn't need a dronebay, it needs a 5th turret. I do more dps with a kestrel.

Arian Snow Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:25:00 - [41] Edited by: Arian Snow on 16/01/2007 02:22:00 ....its their pricestags thats the true problem! The Munin and Eagle and the other HAC's are specialized ships! Deal with it! you wouldn't be complaining about them if their price reflected the actual production cost, and not the heavily inflated prices on the T2 market. Its the marked thats the problem not the ships themselves. HACS arent really worth their astrnomical pricetags, Thats the deal. Complain about the marked when thats fixed it will bring out the true colors of the HACs and other T2 items! Its all about cost efficiency baby! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.16 02:45:00 - [42] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 16/01/2007 02:46:06 Originally by: Goumindong Also, since you asked for damage between the Vagabond and the Zealot. Vagabond 220mm Barrage/Zealot Heavy Pulse Scorch = [5(1.98/3.38)]/ [4(3.6/5.25)] = 1.0672 Vagabond comes out 6.782% higher in gun damage alone, the Vagabond also has a 25m3 drone bay and the ability to fit a launcher on to further increase this difference Did you also factor in the reloading time the Vaga has to take? And the far lower tracking with barrage compared to the Zealot? Also the Vaga almost never fits a launcher in the slot, (pain in the ass carrying around missiles as well as ammo is one factor) so they both have a nos slot. Also factor that the Vaga will be in deepish falloff when it engages, where-as the Zealot is much more likely to be within its optimal. [btw one of the few ships that can kick the living s**t out of a Vagacane is a Zealot, no trouble tracking it and even with 13kish shields, 0% EM resist make them fall fast :) ] Not that I'm complaining.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.16 03:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 16/01/2007 02:22:00 ....its their pricestags thats the true problem! The Munin and Eagle and the other HAC's are specialized ships! Deal with it! you wouldn't be complaining about them if their price reflected the actual production cost, and not the heavily inflated prices on the T2 market. Its the marked thats the problem not the ships themselves. HACS arent really worth their astrnomical pricetags, Thats the deal. Complain about the marked when thats fixed it will bring out the true colors of the HACs and other T2 items! Its all about cost efficiency baby! Not true, the Eagle could cost 40-50mil, that wouldn't change thge fact that it has the DPS of a wet noodle. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Jack Folstam Minmatar The Shadow Order Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.01.16 03:25:00 - [44] Edited by: Jack Folstam on 16/01/2007 03:23:24 Originally by: OrangeAfroMan [btw one of the few ships that can kick the living s**t out of a Vagacane is a Zealot, no trouble tracking it and even with 13kish shields, 0% EM resist make them fall fast :) Not that I'm complaining. QFT A Zealot with a decent pilot can even slaughter a vagabond... I learned this one the hard way (thank god on sisi with the vaga's price tag). I then came back with a muninn and flipped the situation. That is not to say that the muninn (and eagle (and sacrilege (and deimos))) don't need a bit of help to fit their chosen roles. Even though the eagle is the worst foe of frigs (at long ranges anyway), the sacri has an ebil tank, and the deimos.... looks cool?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.16 07:14:00 - [45] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/01/2007 07:12:58 Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Did you also factor in the reloading time the Vaga has to take? And the far lower tracking with barrage compared to the Zealot? Also the Vaga almost never fits a launcher in the slot, (pain in the ass carrying around missiles as well as ammo is one factor) so they both have a nos slot. Also factor that the Vaga will be in deepish falloff when it engages, where-as the Zealot is much more likely to be within its optimal. [btw one of the few ships that can kick the living s*t out of a Vagacane is a Zealot, no trouble tracking it and even with 13kish shields, 0% EM resist make them fall fast :) ] Not that I'm complaining. 1) No, i didnt factor in the reloading time. This, if the vagabond has to reload[which they should not have to most of the time, if the battle lasts over 2.5 minutes[max skills minimum time to shoot to run out of ammo w/2 damage mods is 150 seconds and change] the vagabond will have left, or help will have arrived. If it does factor in then it is equalizes* the dps of the two ships with both at max skills[and with both below max skills, the vagabond still does more]. 2 )Tracking: 220s get a higher base tracking that Heavy Pulses by a significant amount [220mm Vulcan AC II tracks 80% better than Heavy Pulse II]. The Zealot and Vagabond both do not have a tracking bonus. And both Barrage and Scorch have a 25% tracking penalty. If the zealot drops down to standard ammo, in order to gain tracking back, the Vagabond will still have 35% more tracking, and the Zealot will loose 28% of its DPS advantage. If the Zealot goes down to his multifrequency ammo to run at neary the same DPS as before, it will also be in deep falloff[deeper than the vagabond] giving the vagabond a falloff and tracking advantage. This means that the Zealot tracks nearly half as well as the Vagabond. And if the Vagabond knows its maximum orbit speed for which it can still hit at the range it wishes, then the Zealot will miss about 50% of the time. If the Zealot switches to standard ammo, then the Zealot will miss less, but do correspondingly less DPS due to lower damage on the ammo 3 ) No i did not factor in falloff and optimal just as i did not factor in tracking. This is an advantage to the Zealot. What it comes down to, with the tracking differences is that the Vagabond, if it is piloted well, will out-damage the Zealot. 4) NOS. While it is great to say "ohhh the Zealot has a slot for NOS too!" this is a bad assertion. The Zealot does not have the fitting to fit a NOS up there with 4 heavy pulses. If the Zealot does not fit Heavy Pulses he will get significantly out-damaged by the Vagabond[by about 20%, and 60% tracking] 5) "0% EM Resistance". The Vagabdond typically passive shield tanks, sometimes active. This means that the Vagabond has a weaker tank than the Zealot simply by choice. The for armor tanking, the Zealot gets bonuses to its two main holes, Kin and Thermal, and for Shield tanking, the Vagabond does the same. The Vagabond does not have 0% EM resistance, it has 75% EM resistance. Claiming it does is similar to claiming that the Zealot has 20% explosive resistance on its armor. The kicker is that the Zealot has literally no way of killing the vagabond becasue the vagabond can always just leave. This especialy true, because the modified damage that a Vagabond does against a Zealot after it gets though the vagabonds shields is 12.65% of its normal damage. If the Zealot can somehow lock down the Vagabond then it will win. But it will only win because the Zealot is typically set up with a repping armor tank and the vagabond is not. That is not to say that a Zealot is not a threat to a vagabond, as they typically dont want to orbit and run a shield tank, but just to say that it wont be killing it any more than anything else could kill it if they could stop the thing from moving. If the Vagabond finds his orbit velocity and stays under it,then he wont have many problems. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.16 07:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Maeltstome Drones arent the primary or even secondary weapon of the caldari... deal with it - cerb does enough damage without drones, so does the eagle. You have no idea of the Eagle's DPS, do you? The Eagle doesn't need a dronebay, it needs a 5th turret. I do more dps with a kestrel. No you dont. Kestrel caps out at 131 DPS or so with light missiles[tech 2 high damage kinetic]. The Eagle does 160 DPS @ 200km and 380 DPS up close where the kestrel does its 131 DPS. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.16 19:20:00 - [47] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 16/01/2007 19:18:11 Originally by: Goumindong 5) "0% EM Resistance". The Vagabdond typically passive shield tanks, sometimes active. This means that the Vagabond has a weaker tank than the Zealot simply by choice. The for armor tanking, the Zealot gets bonuses to its two main holes, Kin and Thermal, and for Shield tanking, the Vagabond does the same. The Vagabond does not have I said the Vagacane as in the Hurricane with a Vagabond type setup has 0% EM resist. I know my ships. And the Zealot gets a bonus to Explosive and Kinetic, NOT to thermal, they fit a thermal hardener to make up for the whole that IS present. The Zealot should have at least an EANM II + DC + the 80% base explosive resist on its armor, and can run the rep + guns indefinately with a Cap Recharger II (since you don't need a web - the Vaga won't be coming into web range) which means that the Zealot will likely rep the armor damage it sustains from the Vaga's barrage fairly easily while the Vagabond slowly runs out of shields, as it is passive. IF it isn't passive, the vaga will run out of cap. Tracking is also not an issue for the Zealot, because a Vaga w/ MWD + 2 LSEs will be pretty damn big sig radius wise -> tracking becomes a non-issue for the Zealot, while the Vaga will have trouble hitting w/ Barrage in 220s while orbitting at 3km/s around a non-MWD'ing cruiser. Theoretical setups I'm assuming: Zealot: 4x Heavy Pulse 1x AB 1x 20km 1x Cap Recharger II 1x Med Rep 1x EANM II 1x Thermic Hardener 1x DC 3x Heatsink II Vaga: 5x 220s [barrage] MWD 20km 2x LSE 2-3 Gyro IIs PDUs/Istabs Unless the Vaga is dumb enough to let itself cap out (which it most likely would running an MWD constantly) and not escape by then, the Vaga will probably live, however the Zealot will not die. But a ship's value is not foretold by comparing it to another ship in a straight up fight between the two.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.16 19:31:00 - [48] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/01/2007 19:28:42 Quote: But a ship's value is not foretold by comparing it to another ship in a straight up fight between the two. I agree, i was just answering the question of how much damage they did in comparison as complete as i could. I certianly dont think the Zealot is a bad ship [Amarran issues do not lie in its tech 2 laser boats, though they do have some issues]. Point noted on the Vagacane, i misread that. Amarr do quite well in hitting MWD kiting setups. Of course, they cant kill them for the most part, but they wont be killed at least. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.16 19:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Goumindong I agree, i was just answering the question of how much damage they did in comparison as complete as i could. Point noted on the Vagacane, i misread that. Amarr do quite well in hitting MWD kiting setups. Of course, they cant kill them for the most part, but they wont be killed at least. True dat.


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