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Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 17:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Where is the sense of danger to the docked pilot?? Should there be a tool to boot people out of stations too???
A cloaked ship represents potential danger, nothing more until it decloaks. It's the potential danger you want to remove, that way you don't have to deal with the true dangers realized when the ship decloaks. Cloaking is an AWESOME Mechanic, in that it prevents people from completely removing all forms of danger from a system. By cloaking in a system, one character can insure there is always a potential danger to other characters. Hotdrops are the only tool that unbalances the scale... and they do so in more gameplay areas than cloaky campers. Cloaking is fine!!
As low-sec and zero-sec players have said before. When you undock you consent to pvp, unconditional or not (see exscuses for ganking). Fitting that a player with a cloak on is excempted from that rule since he can effectively remove himself from danger for how long he pleases by traveling to a safe spot and cloak up.
A player is also doing pvp when he is in a station, unless I am horribly misinformed. They are just doing another form of pvp, so they too are in essence not safe even if they are in a station.Also it is their turf. Why should they not be entiteled to better security, atleast for the time their alliance is represented as the system owner.
But I agree there is nothing wrong with cloak modules, they are indeed awesome tools, and it is to my belief that they will contunie to create said fear, and be the awesoma tools that they are currently even if players will have a way to defend their space.
A big issue I have is that it is used wrong. One lone player should not be able to sit in space for how long he pleases while not worrying about his own safety.
I have a question for you. You and others againts cloak changes say that you have no way of getting to the players that dock up when a cloakie enters the system. If they had a way to deal with the cloakie do you think they would stay docked? Would not that then be a win-win for you? You want to prevent players from docking up and you want to pvp against others. By letting them hunt you you are getting what you want. is it not? The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
3193
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 17:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
299
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part.
yep, that afk thing is something I would like to see very mutch gone The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2067
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. GǪand that part is simple: fix local, and AFK ceases to exist. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
300
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. GǪand that part is simple: fix local, and AFK ceases to exist. Fix, how? |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. GǪand that part is simple: fix local, and AFK ceases to exist.
Does this fix to local include a way to drive cloakers out of a system if they are found, or will players have to dock up since they can't catch them anyway? The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2067
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:Does this fix to local include a way to drive cloakers out of a system if they are found Yes. Or, well, no, because the means to do so already exists and doesn't need to be included in the fix.
Quote:or will players have to dock up since they can't catch them anyway? Why would they have to dock up? They don't even have to do that now, so why would they have to when the situation is improved?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. Or, well, no, because the means to do so already exists and doesn't need to be included in the fix.
And what is the means to drive a cloaker out of the system that requires the same amount of effort as the cloaker uses to stay cloaked? I am honestly curious The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
3193
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. Then suggest a package of changes to replace local, the reason for AFKing.
The fact that you can AFK and gain the same psychological effects without a cloak, points to the issue being elsewhere.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2068
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:And what is the means to drive a cloaker out of the system that requires the same amount of effort as the cloaker uses to stay cloaked? I am honestly curious F1. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
300
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mag's wrote:The fact that you can AFK and gain the same psychological effects without a cloak, points to the issue being elsewhere. What do you mean, same psychological effects without cloak while AFK? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
3193
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:The fact that you can AFK and gain the same psychological effects without a cloak, points to the issue being elsewhere. What do you mean, same psychological effects without cloak while AFK? So you don't know why people AFK in systems for days?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
And then? I have not driven him out yet The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
735
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:Tippia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:Why do people insist on messing with and breaking cloaks, instead of looking at the cause of AFKing? I don't know about you or the others, but personally I'd rather get at the AFK part, than the cloak part. GǪand that part is simple: fix local, and AFK ceases to exist. Does this fix to local include a way to drive cloakers out of a system if they are found, or will players have to dock up since they can't catch them anyway?
In wormholes, you assume there's someone cloaked up watching you. We don't stay docked up. Without that level of paranoia and preparation you're going to fail... and if you're afraid to fail you don't belong outside of high sec anyhow. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
301
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mag's wrote:So you don't know why people AFK in systems for days? I know why people AFK in systems for days, while cloaked. It's the "without cloak" that eludes me. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
475
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:And then? I have not driven him out yet
Lock pod. F1.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2068
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:And then? I have not driven him out yet Then? F1 again.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Lucien Visteen wrote:And then? I have not driven him out yet Lock pod. F1.
Though I would like to, a pod don't have a cloak. Oh well, was hoping that there was a simple solution that would end this discussion whitch has been going on for as long as I've been playing. The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2068
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:Though I would like to, a pod don't have a cloak. GǪand that is why F1 is all you need. Oh, I suppose you might need F2 as well, if you're a bit slow, but meh GÇö same difference.
Quote:Oh well, was hoping that there was a simple solution that would end this discussion whitch has been going on for as long as I've been playing. There is. The problem is that the solution solves the actual problem, rather than the made-up one people like to wave around as a diversion while trying to sneak in a nerf to something that isn't a problem at allGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
735
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote: Though I would like to, a pod don't have a cloak. Oh well, was hoping that there was a simple solution that would end this discussion whitch has been going on for as long as I've been playing.
There is one... I call it The Ultimate Guide to Life, the Universe and Cloaking. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
3194
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:So you don't know why people AFK in systems for days? I know why people AFK in systems for days, while cloaked. It's the "without cloak" that eludes me. Ahh my bad.
You can still fit your ship to be very hard to probe. Only those fit with relevant implants are successful in probing down. There is also the speed way of avoiding capture, this has been used to good effect many times.
The point is you can still gain the same psychological effect with anything that allows you to AFK for some time. Heck even sitting in a station has the same effect. Kinda points to something else being used to create it.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
301
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tippia wrote:There is. The problem is that the solution solves the actual problem, rather than the made-up one people like to wave around as a diversion while trying to sneak in a nerf to something that isn't a problem at allGǪ Yes, your solution is turning nullsec into wormhole space.
Actually, you know what? **** it, I'd like to see just what would happen to nullsec if that was done. Let's do this. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2069
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Yes, your solution is turning nullsec into wormhole space. Nope.
That's, what? Your 687th straw man? Good lord, manGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
301
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:11:00 -
[55] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Mag's wrote:So you don't know why people AFK in systems for days? I know why people AFK in systems for days, while cloaked. It's the "without cloak" that eludes me. Ahh my bad. You can still fit your ship to be very hard to probe. Only those fit with relevant implants are successful in probing down. There is also the speed way of avoiding capture, this has been used to good effect many times. The point is you can still gain the same psychological effect with anything that allows you to AFK for some time. Heck even sitting in a station has the same effect. Kinda points to something else being used to create it. Ahh of course.
It's not exactly the same, though, as it can be probed down, and as such they can't be really AFK, and there is a counter. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
301
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Yes, your solution is turning nullsec into wormhole space. Nope. That's, what? Your 687th straw man? Good lord, manGǪ Sigh. I forgot to add "basically". You're saying that we should turn nullsec into would basically be Wormhole space, as in "no local". Adding mass limitations as well would do irreperable damage to nullsec, so I kind of assumed that would be left out of the equation.
My bad. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lucien Visteen wrote:Though I would like to, a pod don't have a cloak. GǪand that is why F1 is all you need. Oh, I suppose you might need F2 as well, if you're a bit slow, but meh GÇö same difference. Quote:Oh well, was hoping that there was a simple solution that would end this discussion whitch has been going on for as long as I've been playing. There is. The problem is that the solution solves the actual problem, rather than the made-up one people like to wave around as a diversion while trying to sneak in a nerf to something that isn't a problem at allGǪ
If the solution you talk about is flying with others for added security, then yes I agree. Players that live in zero-sec systems that refuse to play with others is being, well, dumb.
If the problem you speak of is the afk, then the waving about is two-fold. "Carebears" complain that they can't do anything to the neut or red that decides to place himself in a system and then do whatever he wants away from the keyboard, and that it will be solved with only cloak detection. The pvp-bears say that afk is a viable tactick to prevent income and to distill fear, that players that dont want to defend a system dont deserve to live there and that all those problem will go away once local is killed. So in my opinion both parties hides behind it.
The problem is that both parties usually wants the exreme of one end. To kill cloak and leave local, and to kill local and leave the cloak. What so dificult about the middleground? Why is it so dificult to compromise?
edit: omg, a lot of typos here The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:17:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mag's wrote:You can still fit your ship to be very hard to probe. Only those fit with relevant implants are successful in probing down. There is also the speed way of avoiding capture, this has been used to good effect many times.
But here he has to be at the keyboard. And pay attention to his surroundings
Ingvar Angst wrote:There is one... I call it The Ultimate Guide to Life, the Universe and Cloaking.
And I like it, it is a good idea. If you look back on the post you will see that I was the first to support it. The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
735
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote: The problem is that both parites usually wants the exreme of one end. To kill cloak and leave local, and to kill local and leave the cloak. What so dificult about the middleground? Why is it so dificult to compromise?
The middle ground is easy.
1. Remove cloaked ships from local. 2. Remove access to local from cloaked ships. If you want intel while cloaked, go get it. 3. Add a delay in being able to fire a cyno (Length TBD). This should be long enough to prevent abuse of hot dropping out of absolute nowhere. Possible exemption to Black Ops ships.
Local remains for the majority that want it. Cloaks actually cloak. The "afk cloak" issue dies... you won't see a cloaked ship in local sitting there for days on end. Null space retains the bit of danger it's meant to have instead of being nerfed to be even softer. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
301
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:The problem is that both parites usually wants the exreme of one end. To kill cloak and leave local, and to kill local and leave the cloak. What so dificult about the middleground? Why is it so dificult to compromise? All I wanted to do was make the act of fagging up a system more effort, because I'm thinking being able to just sit there while doing nothing was too cheap. In essence I was aiming for the middle ground.
But on the other hand, it would be hilarious to see how nullsec would turn out without local at all. Call it an experiment. |
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