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Is anything _significantly_ faster than my Golem for L4 isk-making?

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The Larold Avalon Enterprises 41	Posted - 2015.12.15 20:27:58 - [1] - Quote Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making. I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun. I'm curious about this: Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked. I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that?
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 1272	Posted - 2015.12.15 20:39:37 - [2] - Quote The Larold wrote: Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making. I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun. I'm curious about this: Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked. I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that? I feel the Vargur is a bit faster, I dont know about 10-20 mil faster. The Macherial/Noctis used to be faster IMHO, haven't run a Mach since the latest 'updates'. The reason being I run an MJD, MWD, and nanofibers. Its quick at moving and killing. I top out at about 95 mil an hour in total asset gain on the best missions for total completion, Gone Berserk and Dread Pirate (not counting anti-empire missions). Get about 50 mil an hour for missions like Serpentis Extravaganza and Vengeance. Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
Garrett Osinov Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2015.12.15 21:38:30 - [3] - Quote If you are talking about isk / hour, then you don't need a Golem. You need to blitz missions and run burners. This way your income will be several times higher, then in Golem.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 939	Posted - 2015.12.15 21:39:55 - [4] - Quote I don't think there is a best ship. Just best ship for playstyle. The reason I say this is because each type of weapon has it's drawbacks, and certain ships/weapon systems are best against certain NPC rats. Turret Ships Turret damage is instant. Hybrid ships can get the highest DPS, but you sacrifice range because you have to use blasters to get that high-end DPS. They also consume cap. Projectiles also don't use cap, but since most of the time you will be engaging in falloff, you won't get best DPS. Projectiles can also partially choose for a specific damage type. Lasers get very good range, but use cap and their tracking sucks; however, their damage is only against EM and Thermal. Lasers can also switch ammo types instantly. Turret ships require some manual piloting to be very effective. Missile Ships Rattlesnake can get high DPS too, but your DPS is almost evenly split between missiles and drones; so you have to manage both. Missile ships can get consistent damage, but their method of application means speed and sig radius lowers DPS. They can also select damage against specific resists, have good range, and don't use cap. Missiles don't apply damage instantly, you have to wait for the missiles to reach their target. EWAR pretty much affects all ships now, unless you are in a Marauder using a bastion mod. Missile and turret range can now both be reduced by tracking/missile disruption, which means even FoF missiles will have their range reduced if you are affected by them. Sensor Damps and ECM equally suck in my opinion. Neuts will pretty much kill any active tank ship without a cap booster, even Marauders. If I had to select a best ship, I'd go with the Paladin.
The Larold Avalon Enterprises 41	Posted - 2015.12.15 22:07:46 - [5] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: The Larold wrote: Please keep in mind I'm asking this question mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I am not looking to maximize my ISK / hour on missions or get into nitty-gritty details on ship differences. I'm more interested in having the confidence to say, "I'm definitely up there" in terms of mission-running isk-making. I've done a LOT of reading on L4s over the years. I'm training some gunnery and battleship skills to try out some other fun-sounding ships like the Mach, Nightmare, Rattlesnake, and Vindicator. (Maybe Paladin, Kronos, etc.) But mostly for fun. I'm curious about this: Assuming maxed or very high skilled missile / core / ship skills, is a Golem pilot keeping up with most of the very-high-earners for mission runners? I can kill anything quickly out to 90km or so in bastion, 56+ while boating to gates. I can loot / salvage 70-80% of the wrecks by the time the gates are unlocked. I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that? I feel the Vargur is a bit faster, I dont know about 10-20 mil faster. The Macherial/Noctis used to be faster IMHO, haven't run a Mach since the latest 'updates'. The reason being I run an MJD, MWD, and nanofibers. Its quick at moving and killing. I top out at about 95 mil an hour in total asset gain on the best missions for total completion, Gone Berserk and Dread Pirate (not counting anti-empire missions). Get about 50 mil an hour for missions like Serpentis Extravaganza and Vengeance. Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, do you farm these missions each day, or do you complete them and turn them in the first time you get them?
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 702	Posted - 2015.12.15 22:55:42 - [6] - Quote Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
The Larold Avalon Enterprises 41	Posted - 2015.12.15 22:59:02 - [7] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest. Are burners those optional frigate-only missions where you need really good skills and weapons? I don't think my skillset is capable of dealing with said missions yet...
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 702	Posted - 2015.12.15 23:19:24 - [8] - Quote The Larold wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Depending on how much you're making at the moment, blitzing + burners should net you 2 to 3 TIMES as much. You can even choose between a Mach or a Barghest. Are burners those optional frigate-only missions where you need really good skills and weapons? I don't think my skillset is capable of dealing with said missions yet... Check out the link in my sig for more info and builds. It's frigs and cruisers. if your missile skills are good then the team burners should be a good place to start. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1753	Posted - 2015.12.15 23:23:27 - [9] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Missile Ships Rattlesnake can get high DPS too, but your DPS is almost evenly split between missiles and drones; so you have to manage both. The stupidly high 1800 DPS figures you see bandied around for the rattler are Torp/Gecko figures. Damage application issues with a torp/gecko rattler probably halve that :D A more conventional cruise/sentinel rattler puts out more like 1400-1500 DPS and if you switch the cruise to a new ship each time a target gets low and finish the target off with sentinels you can apply a fair chunk of that. A lot of management though, a busy cockpit as pilots say.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2209	Posted - 2015.12.15 23:43:19 - [10] - Quote Warp speed mach is great. High dps, reasonable damage selection, alright projection, super fast and agile. cherry picking + blitzing seems to be the highest consistent return available. the golem is pretty nice, but I don't really like missile mechanics. I've been playing around with a barghest a bit lately and that is pretty fun. Missile velocity bonus helps out with my biggest annoyance with missiles of launching another volley while the current volley is the kill volley. If you are going to full clear I don't know that there will be a huge difference between the golem and mach. A few +/- for each and I have no idea where they net. For blitzing I'd take the mach almost every single time, although there are a few cases where the MJD cooldown is very nice to have on marauders. moving on to incursions is one way to up income, or train into smaller ships and get into burner missions. @ChainsawPlankto
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2015.12.16 00:13:12 - [11] - Quote I have Rattlesnake (MJD+sentry+cruises) dealing 1300 dps at 100 km range. I suppose it kill rats faster than Golem however it's true I have to micromanage a bit. Anyway sentries kill frigs very fast and later I think 1-3 salvos of Fury CM with sentries fire support can destroy NPC battleship in most situations. Now I understood "delayed missile damage" quite well so I can stop firing CMs at current target and start shelling next one reasonably well which means flexible and smooth elimination of rats.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4864	Posted - 2015.12.16 03:04:05 - [12] - Quote The Larold wrote: I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that? This is a great question, and the answer really depends on your playing style. There are a few methods to running Lv4s: 1. Shoot everything, minimal salvage. This is where you're primarily going after the bounties and LP and salvage as a secondary consideration. You'll loot the implants from Scarlet, Zazz, Damsel and Angels. 2. Shoot and loot everything. This is somewhat self-explanatory, although there are a number of missions where salvaging is actually counter-productive (anything with Guristas, for example). This is where your Marauder comes in. 3. Blitz. This is where you run Lv4s with the intention of completing the mission objectives only - with the focus on LP. An enhanced version of this that focuses on Burners is what most players now do (see the guide from Anize Oramara). If your play style focuses on non-Burner missions, you'll probably find that all three methods are reasonably close in terms of ISK/hour. You can improve your overall ISK potential by adopting all three play styles when applicable (as opposed to just focusing on one): GÇó You blitz the missions that you can to basically crank through missions to earn towards Storyline missions. Anything that needs Kernite is an instant 20m ISK payday, and anything against one of the opposing Empire Factions is easily a 50-75m bonus with salvage and tags. GÇó You shoot everything where you can get excellent bounties and typically don't loot (these are missions like Assault or the Extravaganzas). You loot implants (Scarlet, Zazmatazz, Damsel) and missions where there's good salvage (Beserk). GÇó You run the occasional Burner mission that gives you a quick ISK/LP payout. I like the Team Burner ones because you can run these with a universal Garmur, so your investment is <100m ISK. GÇó You run the missions that tank your standings with opposing Empires (Enemies), because these can easily make you 200-250m ISK by completing the whole series. With respect to your question about the Golem, I've found that it's the best all-around Marauder. Some players prefer the Vargur but honestly you can't go wrong either way. If you're running in Amarr space the Paladin is probably your best bet. Last on the list is the Kronos. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1754	Posted - 2015.12.16 03:05:41 - [13] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: I have also maxed-out Machariel but I have not run many level 4 missions in Mach so far simply because I have no access to Minmatar level 4 agents yet and Mach shines primarily against Angels! SOE Lanngisi drops a lot of Angels.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2211	Posted - 2015.12.16 03:19:37 - [14] - Quote angels are nice because you can effectively use hail in a mach. but I find the mach to be good vs most other npcs with phased plasma (thermal) or EMP (EM). when you do 1300 dps it doesn't really matter that you are hitting slightly off on damage type. @ChainsawPlankto
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 1273	Posted - 2015.12.16 04:34:46 - [15] - Quote SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 704	Posted - 2015.12.16 04:53:47 - [16] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. You're a couple months behind. I actually do have 3h of recorded footage where I get my normal 250mill/h but I just can't afford to upload it unfortunately (3rd world internet yey). That said here is the original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451140&find=unread . I can provide you the how in the guide and the figures as proof in that thread but weather or not people believe me is no longer important as it's now accepted as fact and the basis for many nerf hi-sec threads.. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1756	Posted - 2015.12.16 05:54:50 - [17] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. By people with high SP characters and lot of SP in frigate skills that keep a batch of blinged out special ships each used for one specific burner type, run almost all the burner versions and reject pretty much everything except burners and trash their agent standing down to almost neg two in the process. Can people achieve that figure ? Certainly. Do many people have the skills/ISK/motivation ? No not really. Most people are content to skill up and fit ships for a few burners to add a bit of an isk boost and leave it at that. Needless to say certain troll type entities are using the fact that a handful of people (a few hundred players at max maybe far less than that) can and occasionally do get that ISK to push for a nerfing/removal of all missions for all players in hisec.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 289	Posted - 2015.12.16 06:50:56 - [18] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The Larold wrote: I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that? This is a great question, and the answer really depends on your playing style. There are a few methods to running Lv4s: 1. Shoot everything, minimal salvage. This is where you're primarily going after the bounties and LP and salvage as a secondary consideration. You'll loot the implants from Scarlet, Zazz, Damsel and Angels. 2. Shoot and loot everything. This is somewhat self-explanatory, although there are a number of missions where salvaging is actually counter-productive (anything with Guristas, for example). This is where your Marauder comes in. 3. Blitz. This is where you run Lv4s with the intention of completing the mission objectives only - with the focus on LP. An enhanced version of this that focuses on Burners is what most players now do (see the guide from Anize Oramara). If your play style focuses on non-Burner missions, you'll probably find that all three methods are reasonably close in terms of ISK/hour. You can improve your overall ISK potential by adopting all three play styles when applicable (as opposed to just focusing on one): GÇó You blitz the missions that you can to basically crank through missions to earn towards Storyline missions. Anything that needs Kernite is an instant 20m ISK payday, and anything against one of the opposing Empire Factions is easily a 50-75m bonus with salvage and tags. GÇó You shoot everything where you can get excellent bounties and typically don't loot (these are missions like Assault or the Extravaganzas). You loot implants (Scarlet, Zazmatazz, Damsel) and missions where there's good salvage (Beserk). GÇó You run the occasional Burner mission that gives you a quick ISK/LP payout. I like the Team Burner ones because you can run these with a universal Garmur, so your investment is <100m ISK. GÇó You run the missions that tank your standings with opposing Empires (Enemies), because these can easily make you 200-250m ISK by completing the whole series. With respect to your question about the Golem, I've found that it's the best all-around Marauder. Some players prefer the Vargur but honestly you can't go wrong either way. If you're running in Amarr space the Paladin is probably your best bet. Last on the list is the Kronos. The Rattlesnake has a lot of potential DPS (emphasis on potential). Without the right fit and close to V skills, you'll be lucky to get half that. You can run it with torpedoes and Geckos and get 1800 DPS on paper, but you'll spend half the mission just trying to get within range of targets. Once you drop down to Sentries and cruise missiles, you'll be just over 1300-1400 DPS - and to get decent damage application you're going to sacrifice a lot of things like how quickly you can get between and around missions. What implants you're talking about in Zazzmatazz and Damsel. The ones I've found are usually worthless so I just skip them. And the bounties in Angels Extrava aren't worth the trouble due to the time it takes you to complete the missions.
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 56	Posted - 2015.12.16 08:09:16 - [19] - Quote Zor drops an implant, sometimes it's a hyperlink worth around 40 mil last time I checked (which was months ago now)
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 699	Posted - 2015.12.16 09:15:38 - [20] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: And the bounties in Angels Extrava aren't worth the trouble due to the time it takes you to complete the missions. Friend of mine still smokes that op in about 20-22 minutes in a Varg. Not the best, but it's nearly 30M in about a third of an hour. That's not bad. One thing to note too is that neither she nor I get missions from agents that are much better (maybe Enemies Abound, Gone Berzerk, Scarlet). I've said it before and I'll repeat it here, there are tons of L4's I've never in my nearly six years in Eve ever seen offered even once, but I could run each mission in Enemies Abound from start to finish step by literal step while blind folded by now. Ask the Gallente Navy, they and the Minmatar have hated my -10 standing guts for half a decade now. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2214	Posted - 2015.12.16 09:25:29 - [21] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. it would be a really ***** boring video. There are videos of the individual burner missions being run you could just loop them for a few hours this post has a screenshot of agent payouts and agent standings transactions https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6112306#post6112306 add a matching bonus, 5m for every agent/team, ~15m for 6.7% base, 21-22m for the 9.18% bases, and a ton of LP. 10m for the Dread pirate scarlet and a bit less LP but also has an ~8m implant. Hasikan Miallok wrote:** By people with high SP characters and lot of SP in frigate skills that keep a batch of blinged out special ships each used for one specific burner type, run almost all the burner versions and reject pretty much everything except burners and trash their agent standing down to almost neg two in the process. Can people achieve that figure ? Certainly. Do many people have the skills/ISK/motivation ? No not really. Most people are content to skill up and fit ships for a few burners to add a bit of an isk boost and leave it at that. Needless to say certain troll type entities are using the fact that a handful of people (a few hundred players at max maybe far less than that) can and occasionally do get that ISK to push for a nerfing/removal of all missions for all players in hisec. standings tend to jump between +4 and -2, have good and bad streaks. If I need to repair (which is rare) I can just take whatever (typically a mission with a decent potential for a blitz) mission I get next, I haven't forgotten how to do normal missions. It may be a drop in the average, but I would guess the average stays well above what most people run. also there are ways to bring that play style more in line without nerfing everyone else too much. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4867	Posted - 2015.12.16 11:17:22 - [22] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: Zor drops an implant, sometimes it's a hyperlink worth around 40 mil last time I checked (which was months ago now) 65m ISK now. I just got one the other day, so it's worth running those missions for the off chance it might drop. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 941	Posted - 2015.12.16 14:58:41 - [23] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The Larold wrote: I'm curious if there is a particular combination of ship + approach (where approach is one of blitz, cherry-pick, or full clear) that, in the long run, is going to show way more profit than the Golem. I'm not talking a couple million an hour. I'm talking like 10-20 million. It feels like I've not much room for improvement for L4 isk-earning, but I wanted to double-check with my more experienced fellow capsuleers. If I was on a quest to continually improve my high-sec ISK-making, which I'm not, it almost seems like Incursions would be the next step up. Is my gut generally correct on that? This is a great question, and the answer really depends on your playing style. There are a few methods to running Lv4s: 1. Shoot everything, minimal salvage. This is where you're primarily going after the bounties and LP and salvage as a secondary consideration. You'll loot the implants from Scarlet, Zazz, Damsel and Angels. 2. Shoot and loot everything. This is somewhat self-explanatory, although there are a number of missions where salvaging is actually counter-productive (anything with Guristas, for example). This is where your Marauder comes in. 3. Blitz. This is where you run Lv4s with the intention of completing the mission objectives only - with the focus on LP. An enhanced version of this that focuses on Burners is what most players now do (see the guide from Anize Oramara). If your play style focuses on non-Burner missions, you'll probably find that all three methods are reasonably close in terms of ISK/hour. You can improve your overall ISK potential by adopting all three play styles when applicable (as opposed to just focusing on one): GÇó You blitz the missions that you can to basically crank through missions to earn towards Storyline missions. Anything that needs Kernite is an instant 20m ISK payday, and anything against one of the opposing Empire Factions is easily a 50-75m bonus with salvage and tags. GÇó You shoot everything where you can get excellent bounties and typically don't loot (these are missions like Assault or the Extravaganzas). You loot implants (Scarlet, Zazmatazz, Damsel) and missions where there's good salvage (Beserk). GÇó You run the occasional Burner mission that gives you a quick ISK/LP payout. I like the Team Burner ones because you can run these with a universal Garmur, so your investment is <100m ISK. GÇó You run the missions that tank your standings with opposing Empires (Enemies), because these can easily make you 200-250m ISK by completing the whole series. With respect to your question about the Golem, I've found that it's the best all-around Marauder. Some players prefer the Vargur but honestly you can't go wrong either way. If you're running in Amarr space the Paladin is probably your best bet. Last on the list is the Kronos. The Rattlesnake has a lot of potential DPS (emphasis on potential). Without the right fit and close to V skills, you'll be lucky to get half that. You can run it with torpedoes and Geckos and get 1800 DPS on paper, but you'll spend half the mission just trying to get within range of targets. Once you drop down to Sentries and cruise missiles, you'll be just over 1300-1400 DPS - and to get decent damage application you're going to sacrifice a lot of things like how quickly you can get between and around missions. Don't rule out the Kronos. Missions where the rats are cruiser and higher, and within 20kms; the Blaster Kronos will melt them. 1500+ potential DPS at targets closer than 20km, and 1000+ potential DPS out to 70km is nothing to sneeze about.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.12.16 16:23:38 - [24] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: angels are nice because you can effectively use hail in a mach. but I find the mach to be good vs most other npcs with phased plasma (thermal) or EMP (EM). when you do 1300 dps it doesn't really matter that you are hitting slightly off on damage type. How can you get 1300 DPS using T1 ammo?
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 699	Posted - 2015.12.16 17:12:11 - [25] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: angels are nice because you can effectively use hail in a mach. but I find the mach to be good vs most other npcs with phased plasma (thermal) or EMP (EM). when you do 1300 dps it doesn't really matter that you are hitting slightly off on damage type. How can you get 1300 DPS using T1 ammo? Because Machariel, maybe? Although, true, it's not always pushing 1300 precisely all the time at any range, but such can be said of any ship really. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 704	Posted - 2015.12.16 19:44:05 - [26] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: angels are nice because you can effectively use hail in a mach. but I find the mach to be good vs most other npcs with phased plasma (thermal) or EMP (EM). when you do 1300 dps it doesn't really matter that you are hitting slightly off on damage type. How can you get 1300 DPS using T1 ammo? You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4868	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:28:02 - [27] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
aldhura Bartledannians 21	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:39:56 - [28] - Quote If you run the whole site, there is nothing better than a golem, I have tried many others. If properly fit you will instapop cruisers and BC with 1 volley all the way from zero range to 123km, could do more if you had a sebo. The others may be better at some missions, but overall the golem is best. If you really wanted optimal, you would need more than one ship. Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6150832#post6150832
aldhura Bartledannians 21	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:46:44 - [29] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Cipher Jones wrote: SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. You're a couple months behind. I actually do have 3h of recorded footage where I get my normal 250mill/h but I just can't afford to upload it unfortunately (3rd world internet yey). That said here is the original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451140&find=unread . I can provide you the how in the guide and the figures as proof in that thread but weather or not people believe me is no longer important as it's now accepted as fact and the basis for many nerf hi-sec threads.. Its only accepted by those who believe actual proof is not required, many of those believe in santa and the tooth fairy Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6150832#post6150832
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 941	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:57:26 - [30] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? Depends on if the target is moving or sitting still. Same could be said for missiles. A frigate moving at 1000+m/s with an AB on, mitigates the damage of torps significantly.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 704	Posted - 2015.12.16 21:45:30 - [31] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? Dunno, has never come up. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 704	Posted - 2015.12.16 21:49:38 - [32] - Quote aldhura wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Cipher Jones wrote: SO 180-270 mil an hour doing burners? I wont even consider anything less than video evidence at this point. You're a couple months behind. I actually do have 3h of recorded footage where I get my normal 250mill/h but I just can't afford to upload it unfortunately (3rd world internet yey). That said here is the original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451140&find=unread . I can provide you the how in the guide and the figures as proof in that thread but weather or not people believe me is no longer important as it's now accepted as fact and the basis for many nerf hi-sec threads.. Its only accepted by those who believe actual proof is not required, many of those believe in santa and the tooth fairy Don't really care. The nice thing about the truth is it's there weather you believe in it or not. You're free to make use of the information to up your isk/h if that's something you want to do. You are also free to only make 1/2 or 1/3rd of it if that's what you want to do. I'm just answering the OP's question. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2215	Posted - 2015.12.17 00:01:28 - [33] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? with a mach you generally shouldn't be shooting targets at 60km. And with the missions I run I typically don't shoot past 20km. Altair Taurus wrote: How can you get 1300 DPS using T1 ammo? faction ammo, gunnery implants, and 4x heavy or sentry drones. I mostly use garde IIs and Wasp IIs. I don't have any scientific proof but it seems to me that since wasps have better optimal range when I drop them they are in range, berserkers seem to want to MWD all the time and out track themselves. Also since Wasps move around less they are usually Either way it is a pretty small difference compared to the gun dps. aldhura wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You're a couple months behind. I actually do have 3h of recorded footage where I get my normal 250mill/h but I just can't afford to upload it unfortunately (3rd world internet yey). That said here is the original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451140&find=unread . I can provide you the how in the guide and the figures as proof in that thread but weather or not people believe me is no longer important as it's now accepted as fact and the basis for many nerf hi-sec threads.. Its only accepted by those who believe actual proof is not required, many of those believe in santa and the tooth fairy what more proof do you want? I can run the frig burners in 4-8 mins, and teams in 8-10, occasionally a piloting error, or bad luck, will mess that up by a few mins. my main delay is typically alt tabbing to the forums and ignoring isk/hour. I lose a few ships to disconnects, but I'm pretty sure the loot I've collected more than makes up for that. I made 353mil and 360k lp the other day over 4 hours at 1800 isk/lp thats ~1bil isk or 250m/hour. Take out the wolf I lost on a DC and it is still 225mil/hour. I forgot if I added in the isk from the 10% corp tax (plus roughly 40mil isk), and didn't record loot. I didn't start out with the intention to record isk/hour, I just looked at the end of the session and said I should figure it out, oh yea, also includes wasted time replacing that lost ship. Final bounty prize 2015.12.14 06:06:25Bounty Prizes5,000,000.00 ISK450,507,649.42 ISK[r] bounty prizes Final mission end time 2015.12.14 05:48:28Agent Mission Reward2,950,000.00 ISK436,391,094.42 ISKMission reward from agent First mission 2015.12.14 01:59:13Agent Mission Reward2,730,000.00 ISK98,191,196.54 ISKMission reward from agent starting wallet balance 2015.12.11 05:59:13Bounty Prize Corporation Tax-500,000.00 ISK96,591,081.54 ISK[r] Corporation tax on pirate bounties this method doesn't give a start time, but if we just assume ~10 mins it does give a nice round 4 hours. I didn't track LP, but I had just cashed out so I had very little LP and have 368k LP in my journal and just rounded down. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4868	Posted - 2015.12.17 01:19:12 - [34] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Depends on if the target is moving or sitting still. Same could be said for missiles. A frigate moving at 1000+m/s with an AB on, mitigates the damage of torps significantly. Torpedoes are not great under ideal conditions... aldhura wrote: Its only accepted by those who believe actual proof is not required, many of those believe in santa and the tooth fairy I managed to break 150m ISK/hour with non-SoE agents, so it's not only possible that you could exceed 200m ISK/hour - it's probable. The only thing required is the desire and commitment to try. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4869	Posted - 2015.12.17 02:02:16 - [35] - Quote Getting back on topic... For a single ship running non-Burner Lv4 missions, I think it's going to be hard to beat any of the Marauders - especially if you're planning on simultaneously looting and salvaging. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2223	Posted - 2015.12.17 02:38:37 - [36] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Getting back on topic... For a single ship running non-Burner Lv4 missions, I think it's going to be hard to beat any of the Marauders - especially if you're planning on simultaneously looting and salvaging. Sounds about right. my standard combo used to be paladin + mach. Paladin for the long or sniping missions, mach for the brawl or blitz missions, not to mention the missions where EM is a bad damage type. Haven't really been using that since they added burner missions and did warp speed changes though. @ChainsawPlankto
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.17 04:14:41 - [37] - Quote I'm testing out a combination of 2 Arty 1400 Vargurs + a Arty 720 Sleipnir . But I'm starting to wonder which is better for the Vargurs between 1400 Arties or the 800 ACs?
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.17 04:17:04 - [38] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: Zor drops an implant, sometimes it's a hyperlink worth around 40 mil last time I checked (which was months ago now) How often on average would you say the 60 mill Zor implants drops in Zazzmatazz and Damsel?
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 56	Posted - 2015.12.17 08:03:02 - [39] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? Dunno, has never come up. That's not quite true, we had a big discussion in a thread a while ago where you were making some frankly outrageous claims on the machs behalf. Don't get me wrong, it's still the best way to make money, but with ac's, dps at 60-70 km is about half, and that's with a stationary target...
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 56	Posted - 2015.12.17 08:09:34 - [40] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: The Bigpuns wrote: Zor drops an implant, sometimes it's a hyperlink worth around 40 mil last time I checked (which was months ago now) How often on average would you say the 60 mill Zor implants drops in Zazzmatazz and Damsel? No idea, but I would guess at around 1 in 20. Tbh, I've never had it in zazzmatazz, but I've heard it does appear.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 708	Posted - 2015.12.17 09:40:31 - [41] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants. What's the actual DPS @60km though? Dunno, has never come up. That's not quite true, we had a big discussion in a thread a while ago where you were making some frankly outrageous claims on the machs behalf. Don't get me wrong, it's still the best way to make money, but with ac's, dps at 60-70 km is about half, and that's with a stationary target, and then you probably have to take out your drones damage too... It doesn't come up. I use hail when running Pirate Invasion. when I land in the site I use the MWD to fly over to where the 6 BS spawn. as soon as they spawn I am within 20-30km. This is the perfect kill distance when it comes to moving targets when using ACs (1/4-1/3 into falloff in case you weren't aware) At that distance I do around 90% of my listed DPS. I can also one shot the Scramming Frigates as they burn towards me, something a cruise or even RHM ship can not do. And yes, I do also use the drones. I figure I'm applying around 1300 dps into the primary and secondary resist holes of the Angel rats. That's of course not counting any penetrating/smashing/wrecking hits, of course. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.04
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.17 10:25:36 - [42] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: How often on average would you say the 60 mill Zor implants drops in Zazzmatazz and Damsel? Often enough that it pays to run the missions. If it drops it's an instant 65m ISK payday... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1070	Posted - 2015.12.17 23:44:12 - [43] - Quote In my experience, the Golem performs the best, and is the most consistent. Here is what I use... [Golem, test] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Large Micro Jump Drive Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 Mobile Tractor Unit x1 With this, I use CM-605 MP-705 GP-805 TN-905 RL-1005 With this (and my skills) I get 1014 dps out to and past max targeting range. Now, you must consider my mindset with this design Only boost shields when you reach 80% shields remaining when in bastion, 90% when out of bastion. This will boost you back to 100%. I typically take on full room aggro, then launch drones. instead of telling my drones to attack, I set the to aggressive and fire at a frigate just once. Your drones will then start engaging all frigs. I'll use fury to burn down BSs, BCs, and destroyers, then swap to precision for cruisers and frigs. For some reason, precision seems to work better against most cruisers even with the application modules and implants. I was using target painters, but since MGCs don't have optimal/falloff, you get better application at range, as well as reducing the time it takes to target swap. Even with the 10% per level bonus for TPs on the Golem, they're still not in a good place. The small tractor is for mission loot. The cap booster is only there for when I'm not paying attention and accidentally leave my shield booster on. If you're more attentive than me, this shouldn't be a problem. The MJD is optional, but I'd advise against a MWD as you lose 20% cap just by fitting it. The method I use for salvage/loot is Drop and Bookmark a MTU as soon as I enter a room and every room, burn through the mission, turn in the mission, then you can warp directly to your BMs with a Noctis without having to go through gates. Alternately, you can carry a mobile depot and refit your Golem to salvage, but the limited tractor range kinda hurts. However, even if using MTUs in conjunction with the Golem, coming back in the Noctis is STILL faster. As far as the speed to room clear, the Golem is probably the most CONSISTENT therefore the fastest. This is due to damage selection (I use eve-survival.org to know what to bring) and having max damage at all locking ranges. The consistent damage, same damage at any range, and damage selection make up for the delays application suffered by missiles. Now, people have mentioned other ships that have higher damage, faster, and many other positive effects. However, they suffer from other issues falloff/optimal for all turrets - reducing ranged dps Non-optimal damage type - reducing DPS against off-damage NPCs Reduced damage for damage selection - Projectiles only get damage selection when using t1 ammo, thus reduced dps Shorter range - requiring you go to the targets or wait for them to come to you Drones have to travel - drones have a delayed damage application as well, and are slower than missiles Dual damage - As an example, the Rattlesnake uses missiles and drones, thus one or both won't be fully optimized, thus reducing application Inconsistent application - Missiles will always hit for the same damage while turrets and drones are inconsistent Reduced tank - Golem is a beefy ship Ewar weakness - Bastion gives in ewar invulnerability which is especially helpful against guristas and serpentis I guess what I'm getting at is that there really isn't a "better" ship, but really only equivalent ships, thus it boils down to trade-offs. Now, the one negative aspect you get with missile boats over other ships is increased ammunition costs. Missiles aren't cheap so likely any increased efficiency you get with other hulls is mitigated by having to buy the missiles. However, the Golem is the most cost efficient missile boat as it only uses 4 launchers.. Even the Rattlesnake uses 5, thus 20% higher expenses. If you really want to see something entertaining, take this Golem fit and use fof missiles. Basically perfect application, no targeting delay, no target swap delay, no range limitation, quite cheap especially if you produce them yourself even when buying the materials required directly from the market, and is an easy button.. You may occassionally have to launch drones to draw aggro when you first come into a room then pull them back in, but once you've aggroed a single target your fofs will engage any target even if they're not aggroed. Also, fof missiles seem to not draw aggro on separate groups of NPCs. IE, i engage group 1 of 5, the other groups won't aggro. If your missiles swap to another group before you have to reload, that group still won't aggro until you reload and re-engage. You only seem to have problems with this when they NPCs are orbiting as the fofs will hit the nearest NPC, thus causing your fofs to target swap. Still, it's really relaxing, lol. (sorry for the long post)
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.12.18 00:06:35 - [44] - Quote Tomorrow I am back to missioning! First I'll try Machariel a bit against Guristas and later I'll move it to Minmatar space. Joe Risalo: Honesty I cannot see advertised by you Golem's advantages over Rattlesnake. I have the same implant set plug in my jump clone flying Rattle. I run missions against Guristas. Rattlesnake melts them at 100 km with Furies and Wardens - excellent DPS, range and ideal damage type, very rare NPC jamming, complete safety with MJD. I can fit scripted MGC II, SeBo II and ECCM if needed. Supposedly hard The Assault mission is a piece of cake to me! Please stop this poor discussion about "2k DPS Mach" we had in September...
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 00:19:35 - [45] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Tomorrow I am back to missioning! First I'll try Machariel a bit against Guristas and later I'll move it to Minmatar space. Joe Risalo: Honesty I cannot see advertised by you Golem's advantages over Rattlesnake. I have the same implant set in my jump clone flying Rattle, I run missions against Guristas. Rattlesnake melts them at 100 km with Furies and Wardens - excellent DPS, range and ideal damage type, residual NPC jamming, complete safety with MJD. I can fit scripted MGC II, SeBo II and ECCM if needed. Supposedly hard The Assault mission is a piece of cake to me! Yes, but that is a single NPC type. Golem retains the same effectiveness against all NPC types. I can typically blap even the tankiest lvl 4 NPC in no more than 5 volleys, but it's typically less. Some go down in two volleys. I can one volleys BCs and destroyers, and precision will one shot most frigs and some cruisers. Plus, I never have to change my fit, only my Ammo. Though, I will also note that in playing with the rattlesnake on the test server (not going to buy it if I don't like it) it has an insanely slow RoF on launchers. At least, from what I'm used to with the Golem. Again though, it's really a matter of personal preference. I really don't think there's a noticably faster BS when it come to full clears. The pirate, Marauders, and a couple T1's/faction are roughly the same as the Golem. The only time there are noticably faster ships is when blitzing.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.12.18 00:26:29 - [46] - Quote Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1769	Posted - 2015.12.18 00:31:04 - [47] - Quote Damage application is the downside of the rattler (that and grid issues). But yeah the DPS is high enough that losing up to a third over time is neither here nor there.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.12.18 00:34:42 - [48] - Quote What do you think about present Barghest in level 4 missions?
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 01:24:04 - [49] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: What do you think about present Barghest in level 4 missions? Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster. It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE. Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS.. It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application. Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 01:52:58 - [50] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so. The Rattlesnake is great on paper - but it has zero damage application bonuses. With full V skills and no implants, a cruise-sentry setup will see a raw DPS of 1419-1524 DPS before things like falloff, target signature or velocity come into play. Since missiles are thermal or kinetic only, you're going to automatically lose 20% of your missile DPS against Drones, Sansha, Blood and Angels. So the 831 missile DPS is actually closer to 665 DPS - and this is before you attempt to apply it. You'll need a minimum of 2 rigors/flares to get 100% damage application against battleships and battlecruisers, and you'll need to switch-out to Precision for anything smaller (along with a target painter). With a pair of omni links you'll be able to hit out to 80km, but Curators and Gardes will lose half their DPS in the process. Wardens are the only drones to retain their DPS past 100km, but they have the worst tracking and frequently miss. So let's recap: GÇó Guristas, EoM, Mordus, Serpentis: 1419 DPS @100km GÇó Angels: 1274 DPS @60km \| 1121 DPS @100km GÇó Drones, Blood, Sansha: 1316 DPS @70km \| 990 DPS @90km GÇó Mercenaries: 1524 DPS @30km \| 1177 DPS @80km This also assumes missiles apply full damage, so range drops 25km and DPS 30% when you swap out to Precision. Now you can drop to T2 damage modules instead of Faction and that will save you quite a bit, but you'll lose another 10% DPS straight off the top. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 01:59:09 - [51] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster. It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE. Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS.. It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application. Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used. The Barghest rocks PvE. You're looking at 1064 DPS before implants and drones, and a T2 flare basically duplicates the damage application of the Barghest. With the Frost change it uses 17% less ammunition as well. It will easily push past 1300 applied DPS well out past 150km if so desired. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 02:05:26 - [52] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Altair Taurus wrote: Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so. The Rattlesnake is great on paper - but it has zero damage application bonuses. With full V skills and no implants, a cruise-sentry setup will see a raw DPS of 1419-1524 DPS before things like falloff, target signature or velocity come into play. Since missiles are thermal or kinetic only, you're going to automatically lose 20% of your missile DPS against Drones, Sansha, Blood and Angels. So the 831 missile DPS is actually closer to 665 DPS - and this is before you attempt to apply it. You'll need a minimum of 2 rigors/flares to get 100% damage application against battleships and battlecruisers, and you'll need to switch-out to Precision for anything smaller (along with a target painter). With a pair of omni links you'll be able to hit out to 80km, but Curators and Gardes will lose half their DPS in the process. Wardens are the only drones to retain their DPS past 100km, but they have the worst tracking and frequently miss. So let's recap: GÇó Guristas, EoM, Mordus, Serpentis: 1419 DPS @100km GÇó Angels: 1274 DPS @60km \| 1121 DPS @100km GÇó Drones, Blood, Sansha: 1316 DPS @70km \| 990 DPS @90km GÇó Mercenaries: 1524 DPS @30km \| 1177 DPS @80km This also assumes missiles apply full damage, so range drops 25km and DPS 30% when you swap out to Precision. Now you can drop to T2 damage modules instead of Faction and that will save you quite a bit, but you'll lose another 10% DPS straight off the top. I'm assuming that what this means is you're getting less DPS than a Golem after application is factored in. The only way to counter this would be to go full damage mods in the lows, and full application everywhere else. As I said earlier though, you must also factor that the Golem only uses 4 launchers, thus less cost per volley, and is bonuses to all damage types, thus less cost when the rattlesnake would be shooting off-damage. Again though, I wouldn't say the Golem is faster than the rattler, but they're at least on par. .. But, your question was on efficiency, not speed. Thus the Golem is more cost efficient in the long run, even though the rattlesnake is significantly faster. You could go with a pure drone rattlesnake (which I plan on doing at some point just for lulz) but only get under 800 DPS max skills. Also, drones are a crap ton more skill intensive. That said, you should also not listen to me, or anyone else here. Because in the end, it's all about what you enjoy flying and it will likely change several times due to boredom on your current ship.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 02:08:59 - [53] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster. It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE. Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS.. It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application. Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used. The Barghest rocks PvE. You're looking at 1064 DPS before implants and drones, and a T2 flare basically duplicates the damage application of the Barghest. With the Frost change it uses 17% less ammunition as well. It will easily push past 1300 applied DPS well out past 150km if so desired. What is this Frost change you speak of? Also, is that torp or cruise fitted and how much fitting space do you have left over for tank? Regardless, I'm still willing to bet that the Golem is more efficient at full clears while the Barghest is better at blitzing.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 02:28:09 - [54] - Quote -1 launcher, 50% damage bonus (+3% DPS, -17% ammo consumption) and 2 utility highs. Also easier to fit an armor tank or torpedo setup. Barghest numbers were using T2 cruise launchers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 04:50:44 - [55] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: What is this Frost change you speak of? Also, is that torp or cruise fitted and how much fitting space do you have left over for tank? Regardless, I'm still willing to bet that the Golem is more efficient at full clears while the Barghest is better at blitzing. -1 launcher, 50% damage bonus (which works out to +3% DPS/-17% ammo consumption) and 2 utility highs. Also easier to fit an armor tank or torpedo setup. The numbers I used was cruise-fit. If you run rigors/flares and a single target painter it leaves you with 4 mids and 2 lows for tank and a MWD. Alternately you can run a pair of missile guidance enhancers as well. Full clears the Golem will probably come out on top simply due to its EW immunity and MJD/tractor ability to salvage any mission objectives. The Barghest definitely shines in a PvP role although it's so bloody expensive I'm reluctant to venture outside of high-sec with it. Dude, I didn't realize they just rebalanced the Barghest, nice!! That thing used to have crap DPS. Granted, not it only pulls out as muc, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 04:56:18 - [56] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: That thing used to have crap DPS. Granted, not it only pulls out as much, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT. The Barghest does 12.5% more damage than the Golem. It's still not as efficient in terms of ammo usage, but it's an improvement nonetheless. As with missiles, applying it is the tricky part... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2015.12.18 05:05:27 - [57] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: That thing used to have crap DPS. Granted, not it only pulls out as much, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT. The Barghest does 12.5% more damage than the Golem. It's still not as efficient in terms of ammo usage, but it's an improvement nonetheless. As with missiles, applying it is the tricky part... Ehh.. I don't think it's 12.5% but I may be wrong... On my golem I'm pulling out only slightly less with cruise or torps. Like 10-50 DPS less depending on if I use torps or cruise (paper dps). At most we're talking maybe 80 DPS. Edit... Man, torps have crappy range.... At least the Barghest gets the massive velocity bonus to missiles though.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4879	Posted - 2015.12.18 05:45:27 - [58] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: On my golem I'm pulling out only slightly less with cruise or torps. Like 10-50 DPS less depending on if I use torps or cruise (paper dps). At most we're talking maybe 80 DPS. Edit... Man, torps have crappy range.... At least the Barghest gets the massive velocity bonus to missiles though. The Barghest has 9 effective launchers vs. 8 effective launchers for the Golem. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 942	Posted - 2015.12.18 14:55:25 - [59] - Quote I think I will have to try the Vargur with Artys. [Vargur, arty] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-905 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Large Projectile Turret LP-1005 The Volley DPS is 14000 with my skills. That should blap BS in 2 volleys, and anything smaller in 1.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2015.12.18 16:04:38 - [60] - Quote Reload time? Optimal range?
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 942	Posted - 2015.12.18 17:35:39 - [61] - Quote Optimal: 46km Falloff: +123km Cycle time: 15s So I MJD for distance, all the NPC fly towards me with almost 0 transversal. Ungroup guns for one shotting frigs. Group 2 together for one shotting cruisers, maybe 2 shots if it is a elite cruiser. Group all together for one shotting BCs, and 2 shotting BS. Deploy MTU. Then salvage drones once frigs are gone. Use tractors to haul in all wrecks within range. Since I am going for the full clear and max salvage, this seems to work very well.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2235	Posted - 2015.12.18 23:08:12 - [62] - Quote barghest has has the damage advantage for a while, it just got ever so slightly better Old barghest 7 launchers * 1.25 damage bonus = 8.75 Effective launchers Now barghest 6 launchers 1.5 damage bonus = 9 effective launchers golem 4 launchers 2 = 8 effective launchers. also with the mordus bonus you don't have to volley count ever (unless you go crazy range sniping with sensor boosters and stuff) On efficiency: sure the golem uses less ammo, but if more dps clears missions faster then income rises. ammo is cheap and surprisingly small increases in income easily out weigh more ammo use. A little more input for a bunch more output, now that's the kind of efficiency I like. Arty vargur: I'd keep the guns ungrouped all the time. so much overkill. I'd also consider a t2 rate of fire rig, because damn arty is slow. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4880	Posted - 2015.12.19 06:28:27 - [63] - Quote RHML Barghest for the win. Especially in a group of 3 or more - it just melts rats. Picture a small group of Barghests - each dishing out 900+ DPS with damage-specific FoF missiles... It literally melts Extravaganzas. The key is to augment this with hydraulic rigs, missile guidance enhancers and a projection implant to get missile velocity over 30,000 m/s. With a cycle time of ~2.5s it means you can almost instablap anything out to 75km without losing more than a handful of volleys. You also have a stupid insane range of something like 150km with almost perfect damage application. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Firestorm Delta Aphotic Machina 53	Posted - 2015.12.19 07:19:18 - [64] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: barghest has has the damage advantage for a while, it just got ever so slightly better Old barghest 7 launchers * 1.25 damage bonus = 8.75 Effective launchers Now barghest 6 launchers 1.5 damage bonus = 9 effective launchers golem 4 launchers 2 = 8 effective launchers. also with the mordus bonus you don't have to volley count ever (unless you go crazy range sniping with sensor boosters and stuff) On efficiency: sure the golem uses less ammo, but if more dps clears missions faster then income rises. ammo is cheap and surprisingly small increases in income easily out weigh more ammo use. A little more input for a bunch more output, now that's the kind of efficiency I like. Arty vargur: I'd keep the guns ungrouped all the time. so much overkill. I'd also consider a t2 rate of fire rig, because damn arty is slow. One extra effective launcher with no application bonuses will leave the Barghest performing worse than the Golem against small targets, especially with Explosion velocity bonus from the Golem making up for the worst stat on Cruise missiles. Rapid heavies would be better on the Barghest of course, but Cruise would still probably work better on the Golem, unless you need mobility in which case Barghest all the way. Of course to me that is still a cardinal sin as I believe the Golem should only ever have Torps which are considerably better on the Golem than anything else and with the addition of the MGC they just got even better. Faction torps and Rage torps can get some more application or range and Jav torps can reach out to about 90km with the range script, and that was before they just buffed them. I will second that ammo is actually fairly cheap all things considered, the difference in cost would be negligible even over hundreds of missions. The Navy Raven (Still call it the CNR) used to have the 8.75 effective launchers before they traded rate of fire for application and yet it still was the preferred Cruise platform before the Bastion module became a thing. Of course what you should fly for missions is entirely up to what you enjoy. I started flying the Golem forever ago because I liked the old Torp explosions and wanted to use them in missions but my Raven wasn't cut out for that. At the time the Golem was pretty much the only ship that could actually use torps in a mission and perform quite well. I've stuck with it since and continued to improve and enhance my fitting and skills for it. While I can fly many other good missions ships I just enjoy the Golem too much to really use them.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4880	Posted - 2015.12.19 08:16:47 - [65] - Quote Firestorm Delta wrote: One extra effective launcher with no application bonuses will leave the Barghest performing worse than the Golem against small targets, especially with Explosion velocity bonus from the Golem making up for the worst stat on Cruise missiles. A T1 flare and a pair of T2 missile guidance enhancers actually gives you more application bonus than the Golem has by default. Granted, you can't match the target painter bonus - but you don't necessarily need to, either. The Barghest is geared towards rapid heavy missiles, and in that role it excels. I like the Golem too, though. I just wish it didn't have such a paper thin shield buffer. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.19 12:19:48 - [66] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Optimal: 46km Falloff: +123km Cycle time: 15s So I MJD for distance, all the NPC fly towards me with almost 0 transversal. Ungroup guns for one shotting frigs. Group 2 together for one shotting cruisers, maybe 2 shots if it is a elite cruiser. Group all together for one shotting BCs, and 2 shotting BS. Deploy MTU. Then salvage drones once frigs are gone. Use tractors to haul in all wrecks within range. Since I am going for the full clear and max salvage, this seems to work very well. Is there a hot key you can use for grouping and ungrouping your guns? Like a hot key for ungrouped 4 guns, and another for a pair of double grouped guns etc....?
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.19 12:23:30 - [67] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: barghest has has the damage advantage for a while, it just got ever so slightly better Old barghest 7 launchers * 1.25 damage bonus = 8.75 Effective launchers Now barghest 6 launchers 1.5 damage bonus = 9 effective launchers golem 4 launchers 2 = 8 effective launchers. also with the mordus bonus you don't have to volley count ever (unless you go crazy range sniping with sensor boosters and stuff) On efficiency: sure the golem uses less ammo, but if more dps clears missions faster then income rises. ammo is cheap and surprisingly small increases in income easily out weigh more ammo use. A little more input for a bunch more output, now that's the kind of efficiency I like. Arty vargur: I'd keep the guns ungrouped all the time. so much overkill. I'd also consider a t2 rate of fire rig, because damn arty is slow. The Golem is the weirdest Marauder with that TP (ewar) bonus. CCP should rethink that skill and give the Golem an explosive radius bonus or a missile flight time bonus instead.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4881	Posted - 2015.12.20 01:49:08 - [68] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: The Golem is the weirdest Marauder with that TP (ewar) bonus. CCP should rethink that skill and give the Golem an explosive radius bonus or a missile flight time bonus instead. We've kind of had this discussion and most are opposed to it because the TP bonus is used in fleet actions (particularly in wormholes). Strangely enough, with the addition of the MGC the TP bonus actually gives the Golem insane damage application. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 290	Posted - 2015.12.20 03:25:16 - [69] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I think I will have to try the Vargur with Artys. [Vargur, arty] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-905 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Large Projectile Turret LP-1005 The Volley DPS is 14000 with my skills. That should blap BS in 2 volleys, and anything smaller in 1. Are you Passive + Active shield tanking with this fit? Why so much bling? Vargurs are fully capable of running missions T2 fitted.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1144	Posted - 2015.12.20 03:53:35 - [70] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: I think I will have to try the Vargur with Artys. [Vargur, arty] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-905 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Large Projectile Turret LP-1005 The Volley DPS is 14000 with my skills. That should blap BS in 2 volleys, and anything smaller in 1. Are you Passive + Active shield tanking with this fit? Why so much bling? Vargurs are fully capable of running missions T2 fitted. Agreed, plus, with the active ganking bonus on the Vargur and bastion, it would be better suited with a shield boost amp over an extender.
Tarojan Tarojan Corporation 198	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:12:22 - [71] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I think I will have to try the Vargur with Artys. [Vargur, arty] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Large Micro Jump Drive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Bastion Module I Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-905 Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Large Projectile Turret LP-1005 The Volley DPS is 14000 with my skills. That should blap BS in 2 volleys, and anything smaller in 1. Pretty sure that fit is over blinged, the damage rig is giving you almost nothing and the 4th faction gyro is wasted too. Looks like gank bait. The advice I have been given and have read is that you want to attach an afterburner to your mara as well. The medium shield booster if perma running will keep your mara alive if you DC in bastion for sure, but it leaves you vulnerable to gank squads. This is why the advice is to use a pith XL booster with a cap booster. Its total over kill for a mission, but its to defend you v 44 catas appearing in your mission pocket. try: damage control II Gyro II Gyro II Gyro II republic fleet Gyro II MJD 100mn enduring afterburner Pith Xlarge shield booster pith c type medium shield booster advanced invul II Tracking computer II 1400mm Howitzer arty II 1400mm Howitzer arty II 1400mm Howitzer arty II 1400mm Howitzer arty II 2 Large Capacitor control circuit II Fitting cost is 355m isk, its cap stable with the Xl booster and afterburner off so you can bastion up and perma run it. I would also fit it with an auto targeting system cos I'm in love with how easier thiongs are when your packing one. That fit isn't going to get ganked. Will gank for food
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4881	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:20:07 - [72] - Quote Tarojan wrote: That fit isn't going to get ganked. If I had a nickel for every time I'd read that... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tarojan Tarojan Corporation 198	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:26:12 - [73] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Tarojan wrote: That fit isn't going to get ganked. If I had a nickel for every time I'd read that... Well anything CAN be ganked. Good fitting, no bling and cautious flying means your not likely to though as there are better/easier targets out there. Being a carebear in high sec is like being a gazelle chased by a cheetah. You don't have to outrun the cat, just the other gazelle. Will gank for food
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 945	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:38:12 - [74] - Quote I'd worry about ganking if I actually sat on the warp-in, didn't watch d-scan, and didn't have a couple more of the exact same fit sitting in the hanger. I fly what I can afford to lose. Besides, where is the fun of having billions in isk, if you don't use it to fly expensive toys?
Tarojan Tarojan Corporation 198	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:46:50 - [75] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I'd worry about ganking if I actually sat on the warp-in, didn't watch d-scan, and didn't have a couple more of the exact same fit sitting in the hanger. I fly what I can afford to lose. Besides, where is the fun of having billions in isk, if you don't use it to fly expensive toys? VOV If I could afford to throw away a mara I'd prob do it one shotting something on the jita undock :P. What ever floats your boat. Will gank for food
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2236	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:57:00 - [76] - Quote the t2 burst aerator shaves about a second off of the rate of fire. Would be interesting to see how that interacts with server ticks. probably worth activating and firing and then deactivating and repeating for a whole clip to see how long it takes to fire all 20 rounds. yea probably not worth using 4x faction gyros, but running 3 faction and then a t2 seems alright. to defend vs ganks I'd consider swapping one of the mids for an xl asb. and on that note probably not worth using a deadspace invlun, although their prices have come down so much I wouldn't be too worried either. Although ganks seem pretty dang rare these days. On the barghest vs golem I don't know which one runs faster overall, but my warp speed rigged, 2x mgc 1x mge barghest has pretty good application, add a painter or maybe two and it volleys cruisers. and hell at MJD range it hits before the next volley fires. Would be interested in trying out the torp golem, haven't flow that in years. with bastion mode giving a velocity bonus and MGCs might be a bit more interesting to fly. @ChainsawPlankto
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2236	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:59:22 - [77] - Quote Tarojan wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: I'd worry about ganking if I actually sat on the warp-in, didn't watch d-scan, and didn't have a couple more of the exact same fit sitting in the hanger. I fly what I can afford to lose. Besides, where is the fun of having billions in isk, if you don't use it to fly expensive toys? VOV If I could afford to throw away a mara I'd prob do it one shotting something on the jita undock :P. What ever floats your boat. having a highsec marauder ganked is a very different thing to throwing them away. If I started throwing them away I'd be out of isk in no time. But running missions in a cheap fit, that marauder is probably going to pay for itself many times over. @ChainsawPlankto
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1145	Posted - 2015.12.20 06:13:59 - [78] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: the t2 burst aerator shaves about a second off of the rate of fire. Would be interesting to see how that interacts with server ticks. probably worth activating and firing and then deactivating and repeating for a whole clip to see how long it takes to fire all 20 rounds. yea probably not worth using 4x faction gyros, but running 3 faction and then a t2 seems alright. to defend vs ganks I'd consider swapping one of the mids for an xl asb. and on that note probably not worth using a deadspace invlun, although their prices have come down so much I wouldn't be too worried either. Although ganks seem pretty dang rare these days. On the barghest vs golem I don't know which one runs faster overall, but my warp speed rigged, 2x mgc 1x mge barghest has pretty good application, add a painter or maybe two and it volleys cruisers. and hell at MJD range it hits before the next volley fires. Would be interested in trying out the torp golem, haven't flow that in years. with bastion mode giving a velocity bonus and MGCs might be a bit more interesting to fly. Torps on even a Bastion Golem are still insanely slow. At MJD range, my fit can take out just about anything with 1k DPS long before they're within the 1200 DPS range a rage torps, and will even take down several targets before they're within Javelin range which is only about 800-900 DPS. Point being, you're going to be waiting for targets to get in range while cruise will have half the room cleared already.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4881	Posted - 2015.12.20 06:14:35 - [79] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: On the barghest vs golem I don't know which one runs faster overall, but my warp speed rigged, 2x mgc 1x mge barghest has pretty good application, add a painter or maybe two and it volleys cruisers. and hell at MJD range it hits before the next volley fires. Would be interested in trying out the torp golem, haven't flow that in years. with bastion mode giving a velocity bonus and MGCs might be a bit more interesting to fly. Torp Golem sucks. Torp Barghest sucks. Basically torpedoes suck. If they had better damage application over cruise missiles and a higher missile velocity it would be interesting. But since they're closely tied to Stealth Bombers I don't think we'll ever see torpedoes for PvE setups (not too mention that Faction torpedoes are 5x the cost of Fury cruise missiles). You can switch to Precision cruise and basically smite any of the pesky little buggers, too (torpedoes don't have that option). I've tried all manner of torpedo fits (including Polarized variants), but you end up having to switch to Javelin torpedoes so often that the gains are often marginal or borderline compared to cruise missiles. Addendum: And basically what Joe said as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4882	Posted - 2015.12.20 06:17:38 - [80] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: having a highsec marauder ganked is a very different thing to throwing them away. If I started throwing them away I'd be out of isk in no time. But running missions in a cheap fit, that marauder is probably going to pay for itself many times over. Avoid blue, try to avoid green as much as possible - and be wary of SoE hubs. And never (never, never, ever) fit purple. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2238	Posted - 2015.12.20 08:17:16 - [81] - Quote heh I forget what torp dps was I haven't looked at it in so long... 31 dps difference between rage torp golem and fury cruise barghest and anyways 40-50km range is very workable in many cases with MWDs and MJDs. although probably not worth it based on speed of the golem, missile travel time, and application. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4884	Posted - 2015.12.20 17:35:39 - [82] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: heh I forget what torp dps was I haven't looked at it in so long... 31 dps difference between rage torp golem and fury cruise barghest and anyways 40-50km range is very workable in many cases with MWDs and MJDs. although probably not worth it based on speed of the golem, missile travel time, and application. Barghest for the win. You can run a Polarized Torpedo Golem but it's very squishy, and if you screw up the aggro on a handful of missions you're deader than dead... There are certain missions where torpedoes are ideal - namely Cargo, Damsel, Zazzmatazz and Thief. Everything else you're running and gunning between gates and cruise missiles will always put you further ahead. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 946	Posted - 2015.12.21 14:55:59 - [83] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: having a highsec marauder ganked is a very different thing to throwing them away. If I started throwing them away I'd be out of isk in no time. But running missions in a cheap fit, that marauder is probably going to pay for itself many times over. Avoid blue, try to avoid green as much as possible - and be wary of SoE hubs. And never (never, never, ever) fit purple. No. Fly what you can afford to lose. People who are worried about losing expensive stuff in this game of spaceship pixels makes me sick. People worried about their killboard stats make me puke.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4886	Posted - 2015.12.21 15:42:54 - [84] - Quote Yes, which in most cases means don't fit Faction or Deadspace modules. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1151	Posted - 2015.12.21 16:36:34 - [85] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Yes, which in most cases means don't fit Faction or Deadspace modules. I'm not worried about it... Everyone leave my Golem alone and would rather spend all their time attacking barges and haulers.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 949	Posted - 2015.12.22 14:17:46 - [86] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Yes, which in most cases means don't fit Faction or Deadspace modules. Most of my blue and green hasn't been bought. Exploration is fun!
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 1275	Posted - 2015.12.22 20:59:49 - [87] - Quote Quote: On efficiency: sure the golem uses less ammo, but if more dps clears missions faster then income rises. Only when you sit down and do enough missions to complete an extra mission with the time saved does this effect start to matriculate. Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4891	Posted - 2015.12.23 03:00:17 - [88] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: Only when you sit down and do enough missions to complete an extra mission with the time saved does this effect start to matriculate. There's not necessarily a huge difference in applied DPS between the four Marauders. Fly what you enjoy. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 1275	Posted - 2015.12.23 04:10:53 - [89] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Cipher Jones wrote: Only when you sit down and do enough missions to complete an extra mission with the time saved does this effect start to matriculate. There's not necessarily a huge difference in applied DPS between the four Marauders. Fly what you enjoy. Agreed, but IMHO the Vargur is the quickest to complete most missions because of its agility. I still think you would have to play for a longer stretch than I am willing to tolerate for the payout however. Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4892	Posted - 2015.12.23 05:11:25 - [90] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: Agreed, but IMHO the Vargur is the quickest to complete most missions because of its agility. I still think you would have to play for a longer stretch than I am willing to tolerate for the payout however. I'm having fun with a 350mm railgun Kronos fit at present. There's something inherently satisfying about insta-blapping frigates... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1162	Posted - 2015.12.23 06:53:15 - [91] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Cipher Jones wrote: Agreed, but IMHO the Vargur is the quickest to complete most missions because of its agility. I still think you would have to play for a longer stretch than I am willing to tolerate for the payout however. I'm having fun with a 350mm railgun Kronos fit at present. There's something inherently satisfying about insta-blapping frigates... I do cruise missile golem with MJD... MJD out to triangulate gate, but bastion for one cycle and ready to MJD straight to the gate before the room is even clear... It may not insta-volley, but it's nice to have that 1k DPS well outside of neut range if the mission has it... But past that, the only reason Marauders do so well at all is because of Bastion.. Before then, they were utter garbage... And they're basically garbage without it.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4893	Posted - 2015.12.24 03:11:18 - [92] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I do cruise missile golem with MJD... MJD out to triangulate gate, but bastion for one cycle and ready to MJD straight to the gate before the room is even clear... It may not insta-volley, but it's nice to have that 1k DPS well outside of neut range if the mission has it... But past that, the only reason Marauders do so well at all is because of Bastion.. Before then, they were utter garbage... And they're basically garbage without it. That's such a painful way to get around... I know the cool-down bonus for the MJD is kind of slick, but with the range of cruise missiles you don't really need it. I've found that a MWD is much more efficient for getting around in missions. And yes, there's something to be said for being able to apply near 100% damage to maximum range. And it comes in black. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1167	Posted - 2015.12.24 03:38:20 - [93] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do cruise missile golem with MJD... MJD out to triangulate gate, but bastion for one cycle and ready to MJD straight to the gate before the room is even clear... It may not insta-volley, but it's nice to have that 1k DPS well outside of neut range if the mission has it... But past that, the only reason Marauders do so well at all is because of Bastion.. Before then, they were utter garbage... And they're basically garbage without it. That's such a painful way to get around... I know the cool-down bonus for the MJD is kind of slick, but with the range of cruise missiles you don't really need it. I've found that a MWD is much more efficient for getting around in missions. And yes, there's something to be said for being able to apply near 100% damage to maximum range. And it comes in black. I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4893	Posted - 2015.12.24 04:21:12 - [94] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1167	Posted - 2015.12.24 04:59:01 - [95] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4893	Posted - 2015.12.24 05:28:38 - [96] - Quote What are you running for rigs? Capacitor control circuits? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1167	Posted - 2015.12.24 08:45:08 - [97] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: What are you running for rigs? Capacitor control circuits? Warhead califaction II Large anti-em II Edit... Other than the heavy Cap booster (which is just there for when I'm an idiot) there are no cap mods on the ship, and that one rarely gets used
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4894	Posted - 2015.12.24 09:56:01 - [98] - Quote I've been pondering this and I've come to believe that a Rattlesnake will probably rival any of the Marauders and even a Machariel. Despite being slower and less agile, the Rattlesnake can put out an insane amount of DPS that with the right modules and implants can be applied almost perfectly. The challenge with balancing two weapon systems seems like a two-edged sword, but with the right setup this becomes an advantage. The key is to deploy drones against larger targets (where any tracking issues are minimized) and utilize auto-targeting heavy missiles against smaller ships. With full skills and implants this gives the Rattlesnake a 65/85km operating radius. This also renders the Rattlesnake somewhat immune to all forms of EW, as auto-targeting missiles and aggressive drones will seek out the closest targets even if completely ECM-jammed or sensor damped. Being limited to thermal and kinetic missile damage does not pose a problem, either - as NPCs weak to EM or explosive damage are almost equally vulnerable to thermal or kinetic (including some Rogue Drones). The setup I'm running is currently putting out 1483 DPS. This is not paper DPS, but applied. I lose a bit against frigates, but not much. I've been able to utilize either MWD or MJD to keep specific clusters of NPCs within <40km targeting range, which is optimal for not only missiles but Geckos. Geckos have been boosted with navigation modules, rigs and tracking speed - so they're moving at close to 5km/sec and shooting at 6km optimal. Omni-damage means I only ever need to deploy a single drone (which has the EHP of a battlecruiser) - and I have enough room for 2 spare in reserve. The fit is cap stable for the most part so I can use generous amounts of MWD to get around where I need to or follow behind the Gecko and blast any NPCs that may harass it with missiles. EHP is over 108k so I've got a huge shield buffer to absorb incoming DPS while I let the passive recharge slowly trickle in or shield boost as needed. Align time is just over 10 seconds with a warp speed of 4.05 AU/s. Not as insane as a Machariel, but since almost all my mission destinations are within 1 jump and 10-15 AU we're talking a difference of maybe 10-15 seconds transit time. I don't find I miss having a tractor beam for objectives as it's easy to pre-navigate and shoot as you go, and unless a mission is worth salvaging there's typically only one or two containers that are usually clustered together. Since drones are the primary weapon system, I have a lot of free cargo space for missions or MTUs, and it's almost always more beneficial to simply bookmark and retrieve these with a fast transport later. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 291	Posted - 2015.12.25 00:24:23 - [99] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.25 00:36:45 - [100] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion. yeah, that is def a rough mission for any tank.. i basically rely on MJD and stay out of 50km range
aldhura Bartledannians 22	Posted - 2015.12.25 19:00:54 - [101] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion. My golem with a gist c large shield booster manages to tank all missions just fine. Bartledannians are recruiting.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6150832#post6150832
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 959	Posted - 2015.12.25 19:18:57 - [102] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion. What? I've always used a medium-deadspace booster on my Vargur and have always done that mission solo. Warp-in, activate MJD, snipe them down as they fly towards you. Easy Peasy. Even easier with a Paladin or Kronos.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.25 20:26:43 - [103] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion. What? I've always used a medium-deadspace booster on my Vargur and have always done that mission solo. Warp-in, activate MJD, snipe them down as they fly towards you. Easy Peasy. Even easier with a Paladin or Kronos. It's easy, until BSs are within 50 km.. Then they hammer pretty hard.. You're supposed to be able to blitz that mission by sniping the structure, but there's so many tags it's hard to turn them down..
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4901	Posted - 2015.12.26 04:09:07 - [104] - Quote It might be beneficial to find a free mid slot for a Phased Muon ECCM Caster I module to ensure the squad of light drones can actually be used without incident now. It has a 72km range, so one should be able to fit a T2 drone link augmentor to ensure they don't venture forth to get into too much trouble. You only need to target and focus on one of your drones and this will add basically +100 DPS to the bottom line of the Golem. It's probably the only Marauder that can spare a mid at this point, and it brings the DPS up to give it a bit more versatility (especially when using Fury cruise missiles against most targets). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4901	Posted - 2015.12.26 05:06:00 - [105] - Quote Golem (new and improved) 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II 1x Bastion Module I 1x Drone Link Augmentor I 2x Small Tractor Beam II 1x Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive 2x Missile Guidance Computer II, precision-scripted 1x Phased Muon ECCM Caster I 1x Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field 1x Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster 1x Large Micro Jump Drive 2x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System 1x Ballistic Control System II 1x Nanofiber Structure II 1x Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II 1x Large Hyperspacial Velocity Optimizer II 3750 Scourge Fury Cruise Missiles 3750 Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missiles 2500 Inferno Fury Cruise Missiles 1250 Scourge Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Mjolnir Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Inferno Precision Cruise Missiles 5x 'Augmented' Hornet ..... With V skills, High-grade Ascendancy and +5-6 missile implants: GÇó 1100 DPS: 998 DPS missile, 102 DPS drone GÇó 1054 m/s velocity, <9 second align and 4.46 AU/s warp speed I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.26 07:59:07 - [106] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Golem (new and improved) 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II 1x Bastion Module I 1x Drone Link Augmentor I 2x Small Tractor Beam II 1x Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive 2x Missile Guidance Computer II, precision-scripted 1x Phased Muon ECCM Caster I 1x Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field 1x Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster 1x Large Micro Jump Drive 2x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System 1x Ballistic Control System II 1x Nanofiber Structure II 1x Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II 1x Large Hyperspacial Velocity Optimizer II 3750 Scourge Fury Cruise Missiles 3750 Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missiles 2500 Inferno Fury Cruise Missiles 1250 Scourge Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Mjolnir Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Inferno Precision Cruise Missiles 5x 'Augmented' Hornet ..... With V skills, High-grade Ascendancy and +5-6 missile implants: GÇó 1100 DPS: 998 DPS missile, 102 DPS drone GÇó 1054 m/s velocity, <9 second align and 4.46 AU/s warp speed I don't use my drones that much.. And I don't see how an ECCM adds to your drone DPS.. Unless you're saying the ECCM draws aggro so your drones don't get shot? In which case, that might be a good idea for a rattler or Nestor fit.
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 56	Posted - 2015.12.26 08:09:38 - [107] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Golem (new and improved) 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II 1x Bastion Module I 1x Drone Link Augmentor I 2x Small Tractor Beam II 1x Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive 2x Missile Guidance Computer II, precision-scripted 1x Phased Muon ECCM Caster I 1x Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field 1x Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster 1x Large Micro Jump Drive 2x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System 1x Ballistic Control System II 1x Nanofiber Structure II 1x Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II 1x Large Hyperspacial Velocity Optimizer II 3750 Scourge Fury Cruise Missiles 3750 Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missiles 2500 Inferno Fury Cruise Missiles 1250 Scourge Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Mjolnir Precision Cruise Missiles 1250 Inferno Precision Cruise Missiles 5x 'Augmented' Hornet ..... With V skills, High-grade Ascendancy and +5-6 missile implants: GÇó 1100 DPS: 998 DPS missile, 102 DPS drone GÇó 1054 m/s velocity, <9 second align and 4.46 AU/s warp speed I don't use my drones that much.. And I don't see how an ECCM adds to your drone DPS.. Unless you're saying the ECCM draws aggro so your drones don't get shot? In which case, that might be a good idea for a rattler or Nestor fit. Arthur created another thread where he said exactly that, apparently npc's hate that module more than any other...
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4901	Posted - 2015.12.26 12:09:19 - [108] - Quote I've tested this and it works slick. I may swap out 4 Hornets for a pair of Vespas instead to see if I can bump the DPS up a bit more. Believe it or not, having another 100 free-ranging DPS adds up quite a bit. You can also use this method with salvage drones because they'll get left alone as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4901	Posted - 2015.12.26 14:48:40 - [109] - Quote Updated answer to the OP. Nope. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:36:21 - [110] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Updated answer to the OP. Nope. It kinda works.. Mission I just ran, the cruisers swapped back over to focusing my Gecko, but eventually came back to me.. It seems to help the aggro, but not completely remove them aggroing your drones. Edit... Maybe they would focus me if I put a point/scram on to a frig or something?
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4905	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:15:43 - [111] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: It kinda works.. Mission I just ran, the cruisers swapped back over to focusing my Gecko, but eventually came back to me.. It seems to help the aggro, but not completely remove them aggroing your drones. Edit... Maybe they would focus me if I put a point/scram on to a frig or something? I ran 4 missions with Augmented Hornets and they were completely ignored out to ranges of 70km. No issues at all. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2248	Posted - 2015.12.27 03:42:22 - [112] - Quote in missions light drones are almost always ignored, seems like a wasted slot on a golem to me. and with skills t2/aug drones should kill elite frigs with very minimal problems. If there is some mission with a large elite frig spawn then maybe thats an issue, but in general they should be alright. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4905	Posted - 2015.12.27 03:55:41 - [113] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: in missions light drones are almost always ignored, seems like a wasted slot on a golem to me. and with skills t2/aug drones should kill elite frigs with very minimal problems. If there is some mission with a large elite frig spawn then maybe thats an issue, but in general they should be alright. I find they're almost always sandbagged in about half of them. Which means I'm getting a token amount of DPS. As I indicated, I don't need a target painter for damage application and the tank is already more than sufficient. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 292	Posted - 2015.12.27 04:54:41 - [114] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I do MJD because I use an X-l booster and don't like the 20% cap reduction just for fitting it... That said, 1 minute to jump out and back in isn't that much time at all... Especially when you consider the room typically isn't clear by then anyway. Why an X-large shield booster? I know they're cheap as sin, but anything larger than a medium is really overkill for the vast majority of missions (especially if you're in Bastion). I draw full room aggro and don't monitor triggers. Certain missions have a tendency to hit pretty hard, so I run around with the x-l at all times, instead of swapping fits around. I also have a heavy cap booster fitted with 5 800's in it.... This is because I have a tendency to either forget to shut my booster off, or it doesn't respond so I don't realize it didn't shut off until I get a cap noise. Typically, my cap won't recharge fast enough on its own, so I carry the boosters just in case, and for neut missions. I use a Pith X-Type Large Shield booster on my Vargurs and nearly lost one in Smash the Supplier the other day. You best to be careful in that mission if you're only using ONE marauder (I was using 2 Arty Vargurs + a Loki). Of course that never EVER happened when I was using dual Tach Paladins + Legion. What? I've always used a medium-deadspace booster on my Vargur and have always done that mission solo. Warp-in, activate MJD, snipe them down as they fly towards you. Easy Peasy. Even easier with a Paladin or Kronos. I derped that mission. I just warped in with a pair of Vargurs and Loki, bastioned up, begin perma-running the shield boosters, locked targets, started firing and walked away for a few minutes. When I came back the mission was fully spawned with all firepower focusing on only one Vargur with a 1135DPS perma-tank. The Vargur's tank got down to 10% shields before I remembered to OH the Invulnerability and the Pith X-type large booster. It was my error for not paying attention, but if I had anything lower than the Pith X-type LSB my Vargur would've popped for certain. Of course now my Vargurs are fitted with 1542DPS perma-tanks each, so that won't happen again.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.27 06:27:04 - [115] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: What? I've always used a medium-deadspace booster on my Vargur and have always done that mission solo. Warp-in, activate MJD, snipe them down as they fly towards you. Easy Peasy. Even easier with a Paladin or Kronos. I derped that mission. I just warped in with a pair of Vargurs and Loki, bastioned up, begin perma-running the shield boosters, locked targets, started firing and walked away for a few minutes. When I came back the mission was fully spawned with all firepower focusing on only one Vargur with a 1135DPS perma-tank. The Vargur's tank got down to 10% shields before I remembered to OH the Invulnerability and the Pith X-type large booster. It was my error for not paying attention, but if I had anything lower than the Pith X-type LSB my Vargur would've popped for certain. Of course now my Vargurs are fitted with 1542DPS perma-tanks each, so that won't happen again.[/quote] I don't perma-tank my Golem. Granted, that's because I have to dedicate some mid slots to application. Having said that, I have been playing around on the test server with a perma-tank armor Nestor, a perma shield nestor, and a perma shield rattlesnake (I don't like the passive tank cause it takes up a ton of slots).. That said, in Bastion my Golem reps for like 20-22% of my shield HP per cycle, so I just boost as needed.. That mission will put the hurt out though.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 959	Posted - 2015.12.28 15:29:21 - [116] - Quote Gank is tank. Prioritize the cruisers, then the BS. If you are killing the ships fast enough, then there is no reason to use an X-Large shield booster or to overheat.
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 57	Posted - 2015.12.28 15:54:28 - [117] - Quote Back to the light drones and an eccm module. In most missions I find that drones are ignored anyway, but in the epic arcs, drones seem to get hammered a lot more. Maybe that would be a better testbed for the efficacy of eccm at holding aggro?
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.28 15:59:52 - [118] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: Back to the light drones and an eccm module. In most missions I find that drones are ignored anyway, but in the epic arcs, drones seem to get hammered a lot more. Maybe that would be a better testbed for the efficacy of eccm at holding aggro? So far, I have found the the ECCM does help. On a rattlesnake, I launch a single gecko, put ECCM on it. Now, the cruisers and frigs will occasionally swap aggro on to the gecko, but they do so a lot less often. When they do, if you tell the gecko to return and orbit, they will normally swap back to me before the gecko covers much distance, so I turn it around and go back to killing.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2015.12.28 17:09:19 - [119] - Quote Seriously though... Take a Golem, fit 3 missile computers with precision scripts. Fit it out with fof missiles, and put a warden sentry in case you have to draw aggro. It's the easy button
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 58	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:43:36 - [120] - Quote I do use a golem, usually fit with 4 tp's instead of mgc's but depending on mission. It's easy, but it's probably my least favourite of the marauders, and only ahead of mach and rs due to its ewar immunity.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1177	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:55:16 - [121] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: I do use a golem, usually fit with 4 tp's instead of mgc's but depending on mission. It's easy, but it's probably my least favourite of the marauders, and only ahead of mach and rs due to its ewar immunity. Don't bother with the TPs.. Even with the on hull bonus, they suffer from range limitations. Also, with 4 TP's, the 4th is worth nothing and an MGC would perform better. Having said that, the MGC uses less cap and reduces target swapping caused by still online TPs. Also, with the current buff to MGCs, things have gotten a good bit better.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4911	Posted - 2015.12.29 02:46:46 - [122] - Quote What's the ideal non-TP Golem setup now? A T2 rigor/flare and three precision-scripted MCGs? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1177	Posted - 2015.12.29 04:15:26 - [123] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: What's the ideal non-TP Golem setup now? A T2 rigor/flare and three precision-scripted MCGs? Nope... 3 MGCs - t2 cruise missile damage rig and t2 anti-em rig.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 292	Posted - 2015.12.29 04:46:52 - [124] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: The Bigpuns wrote: I do use a golem, usually fit with 4 tp's instead of mgc's but depending on mission. It's easy, but it's probably my least favourite of the marauders, and only ahead of mach and rs due to its ewar immunity. Don't bother with the TPs.. Even with the on hull bonus, they suffer from range limitations. Also, with 4 TP's, the 4th is worth nothing and an MGC would perform better. Having said that, the MGC uses less cap and reduces target swapping caused by still online TPs. Also, with the current buff to MGCs, things have gotten a good bit better. Like I said before, CCP needs to change that TP bonus on the Golem for a Missile Precision or Explosion Radius bonus instead. It would fall in line with the other Marauders application bonuses.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1177	Posted - 2015.12.29 04:52:47 - [125] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: The Bigpuns wrote: I do use a golem, usually fit with 4 tp's instead of mgc's but depending on mission. It's easy, but it's probably my least favourite of the marauders, and only ahead of mach and rs due to its ewar immunity. Don't bother with the TPs.. Even with the on hull bonus, they suffer from range limitations. Also, with 4 TP's, the 4th is worth nothing and an MGC would perform better. Having said that, the MGC uses less cap and reduces target swapping caused by still online TPs. Also, with the current buff to MGCs, things have gotten a good bit better. Like I said before, CCP needs to change that TP bonus on the Golem for a Missile Precision or Explosion Radius bonus instead. It would fall in line with the other Marauders application bonuses. I think CCP treated the TP bonus as an application bonus. Unfortunately, it got tied to a module... Though, with the MGCs, the bonus is a bit redundant. Definitely needs a better bonus... Don't care if it's application or something else, but anything decent would be nice.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4911	Posted - 2015.12.29 05:43:11 - [126] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I think CCP treated the TP bonus as an application bonus. Unfortunately, it got tied to a module... Though, with the MGCs, the bonus is a bit redundant. Definitely needs a better bonus... Don't care if it's application or something else, but anything decent would be nice. From what I recall during the Golem rebalance discussion, there were a lot of proponents for keeping the TP bonus. I believe this was primarily due to the Golem's role in applying TP bonuses for use in wormhole space. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1177	Posted - 2015.12.29 05:59:23 - [127] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I think CCP treated the TP bonus as an application bonus. Unfortunately, it got tied to a module... Though, with the MGCs, the bonus is a bit redundant. Definitely needs a better bonus... Don't care if it's application or something else, but anything decent would be nice. From what I recall during the Golem rebalance discussion, there were a lot of proponents for keeping the TP bonus. I believe this was primarily due to the Golem's role in applying TP bonuses for use in wormhole space. Who knows anymore.. Missile boats seem to be a hodge podge of crap that won't work without Rapids...
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 58	Posted - 2015.12.29 09:01:56 - [128] - Quote You all be like crazy and stuff. Tp bonus on a golem is way strong. Why the hell are you having range issues in a marauder? Sit there and face tank all the things. Usually in tp optimal, if not, mjd or mwd closer. Like with any other marauder. The bonused tp's provide such a big bonus that it's usually viable to have at least 3 of them. Missile application formula is weighted towards the radius side, only time the velocity is more useful is when shooting frigs. Which drones should be doing. 3 tp's and an mgc, or 2 and 2, is fine although with missions that have ewar immune npc's (Zor, some epic arc bosses) mgc's are you're best option. And I can see the quality of life with not having to reapply painters to every target when going with mgc's, but with the reduced cycle times, it's never actually an issue. Tldr, the application and aggro holding of tp's is still better. Golem can spare so many mids for application that rigs are mostly redundant anyway. With tp's, I usually go with a flare and a calefaction just cos nothing else is needed, although astronautic rigs may be worth a shot.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 961	Posted - 2015.12.29 14:37:45 - [129] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I think CCP treated the TP bonus as an application bonus. Unfortunately, it got tied to a module... Though, with the MGCs, the bonus is a bit redundant. Definitely needs a better bonus... Don't care if it's application or something else, but anything decent would be nice. From what I recall during the Golem rebalance discussion, there were a lot of proponents for keeping the TP bonus. I believe this was primarily due to the Golem's role in applying TP bonuses for use in wormhole space. It shouldn't have been kept. It was a slap in the face to the Paladin and Kronos, who used to have bonuses to webs.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4912	Posted - 2015.12.29 16:40:07 - [130] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: It shouldn't have been kept. It was a slap in the face to the Paladin and Kronos, who used to have bonuses to webs. I personally would've preferred an explosion radius bonus (in addition to explosion velocity). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1178	Posted - 2015.12.29 18:33:33 - [131] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: You all be like crazy and stuff. Tp bonus on a golem is way strong. Why the hell are you having range issues in a marauder? Sit there and face tank all the things. Usually in tp optimal, if not, mjd or mwd closer. Like with any other marauder. The bonused tp's provide such a big bonus that it's usually viable to have at least 3 of them. Missile application formula is weighted towards the radius side, only time the velocity is more useful is when shooting frigs. Which drones should be doing. 3 tp's and an mgc, or 2 and 2, is fine although with missions that have ewar immune npc's (Zor, some epic arc bosses) mgc's are you're best option. And I can see the quality of life with not having to reapply painters to every target when going with mgc's, but with the reduced cycle times, it's never actually an issue. Tldr, the application and aggro holding of tp's is still better. Golem can spare so many mids for application that rigs are mostly redundant anyway. With tp's, I usually go with a flare and a calefaction just cos nothing else is needed, although astronautic rigs may be worth a shot. TPs are good for torps. However, for cruise missiles, you're better off with MGC's, as you can engage at any range. Honestly, if you're using torps on a Golem, you're doing it wrong. Sure, you get 200 more dps, but that's within 35km range.. Outside of that range, you're getting a minimum of 100dps less, and can only reach out to 80km, and that's with MGCs, which means you're losing application. Trust me, if you're flying a Golem, use cruise missiles and MGC's. I have my Golem fitted with 3 and only use precision scripts. I can nail anything within targeting range.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4912	Posted - 2015.12.30 00:34:48 - [132] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Honestly, if you're using torps on a Golem, you're doing it wrong. Sure, you get 200 more dps, but that's within 35km range.. Outside of that range, you're getting a minimum of 100dps less, and can only reach out to 80km, and that's with MGCs, which means you're losing application. Polarized torpedo Golem is interesting, if a tad on the squishy side. I agree that range is definitely an issue, though. Even with hydraulic rigs, Javelins and Bastion you're still looking at around 70-80km max for not much more DPS than Fury cruise missiles. What you do gain is a much faster rate of fire - which is quite an improvement over cruise launchers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1180	Posted - 2015.12.30 00:52:19 - [133] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Polarized torpedo Golem is interesting, if a tad on the squishy side. I agree that range is definitely an issue, though. Even with hydraulic rigs, Javelins and Bastion you're still looking at around 70-80km max for not much more DPS than Fury cruise missiles. What you do gain is a much faster rate of fire - which is quite an improvement over cruise launchers. You're looking at 80km with 2 T2 range rigs. You can boost that up to about 106km by putting range scripts in 3 MGC 2's, but you lose a TON of application in doing so. Mind you, this is also with Javelin cruise, which at all skills 5, you're losing around 200 dps in doing so. In order to get top damage, with good application, you're looking at 44km range. However, you must also consider that torps are SOOOOO SLOW... And this effects their acceleration, which means you're getting at least 5km less than on paper. Lastly, you're also paying more in fitting costs, so you get less functionality and/or tank within your fit.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4912	Posted - 2015.12.30 01:09:13 - [134] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: You're looking at 80km with 2 T2 range rigs. You can boost that up to about 106km by putting range scripts in 3 MGC 2's, but you lose a TON of application in doing so. Mind you, this is also with Javelin cruise, which at all skills 5, you're losing around 200 dps in doing so. In order to get top damage, with good application, you're looking at 44km range. However, you must also consider that torps are SOOOOO SLOW... And this effects their acceleration, which means you're getting at least 5km less than on paper. Lastly, you're also paying more in fitting costs, so you get less functionality and/or tank within your fit. Sounds about right. With a Polarized setup you really can't afford to allocate 2 slots to range as well because you have zero tank. With +5 implants you have an 84.2km range in Bastion and 1033 DPS; 56.1km and 1319 DPS with Faction torpedoes. Fury torpedoes are almost pointless to utilize because the damage application and speed is abysmal. The other problem with torpedoes is that they're ridiculously expensive - more than twice the cost for both T2 and Faction. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 1180	Posted - 2015.12.30 01:15:00 - [135] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Sounds about right. With a Polarized setup you really can't afford to allocate 2 slots to range as well because you have zero tank. With +5 implants you have an 84.2km range in Bastion and 1033 DPS; 56.1km and 1319 DPS with Faction torpedoes. Fury torpedoes are almost pointless to utilize because the damage application and speed is abysmal. The other problem with torpedoes is that they're ridiculously expensive - more than twice the cost for both T2 and Faction. I can say that at least they recently reduced the m3 of torps, so you can carry and load more, but it doesn't make up for the pitfalls of using them. It's also insane to seen that even Polarized torps do less damage than cruise missiles at max range... .. And to be honest, if you're in PVP, there's no point in using either over rapid heavies, unless you're in the alliance tournament.. Having said that, is it just me or do all missile systems seem to be balanced around the AT?
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4912	Posted - 2015.12.30 01:31:50 - [136] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I can say that at least they recently reduced the m3 of torps, so you can carry and load more, but it doesn't make up for the pitfalls of using them. It's also insane to seen that even Polarized torps do less damage than cruise missiles at max range... .. And to be honest, if you're in PVP, there's no point in using either over rapid heavies, unless you're in the alliance tournament.. Having said that, is it just me or do all missile systems seem to be balanced around the AT? Yes, the size reduction for torpedoes was good - but they left the damage application worse than cruise missiles. Part of the problem is that torpedoes are closely tied to Stealth Bombers, so... From what I recall with the last AT, almost everything used RHMLs. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

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