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Seriously, is there ANY reason to use guns over missiles?

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Tarrin Toussaint	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Tarrin Toussaint on 18/01/2007 03:40:55 First off, I accidentally posted this under Tarin, that's just a foolish little alt I will be deleting. My real character is Logan Weavend. I'm a Caldari pilot, I've been playing for 6 months but dormant for a few of those. So far I've done light PvP and mostly mission running and ratting. I started out with the desire to be an all-gun Caldari, and this idea was reinforced by people who told me guns were better for PvP. However, I've had little sucess finding any justification for their continued use, with their instant-hit ability being the single frail advantage I can find for them. Right now I'm at around 2 million SP, with 300k of that put into skills designed to give me the edge in long range railgun combat. However, the ammo that would give me my best range also severely limits my damage output. Switching between ammo types can waste valuable time, and often I am forced to load the extreme shortrange ammo a few shots after I let my long range loose in order to have it switched in time to catch it in the short range optimal. Also, I am often forced to fly straight away from the enemy in order to limit my transversal and keep them at a range my guns can track at, which poses two difficulties in PvE. One, which is inherant with any long range combat, is that I am forced to take a very long walk back to pickup loot. The second is that, if I need to escape for whatever reason, I must chose between aligning (if there even is a decent escape route viable while still generally retreating from the enemy's direction) and limiting my damage capability by allowing them more transversal, or going for better damage and hoping I can align in time if I get in a scrape. Today, with only 80k in missiles, I was ratting in .4 and, besides having plenty of cap for midslot shielding abilities, I never had any problems with frigates or the like getting under my guns. With my Ferox gun setup, I often had to wait while drones and assaults slowly took out frigates that would rush me during missions, and in Dead Space missions more often than not they started below my viable tracking range already. With missiles, they hit for more every time, they took care of enemies small and large, and there was no ridiculous shuffling for ammo or loading slots with different ammo just to have at least one gun firing at all times. Please, help me understand why anyone would use guns over missiles. As it is, I feel I have wasted an enormous amount of SP in a useless skill, and will be switching my setups to all missile.
Logan Weavend Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:45:00 - [2] Sorry, this is my real character, Logan Weavend. Just for clarification. ------------------------- So what, I popped a few pirate pods; so what I have a bad security status? Pirates deserve to be podded you fools, sometimes you have to play dirty to beat 'em! Oh, I almos
Ice Conch	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:47:00 - [3] 1) more damage 2) better for pvp
Meeko Gloom Gallente Blazing Saddles	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:53:00 - [4] Sry I read only bits and pieces of your post... Simply put Caldari guns = Fleet Battles, Range Ect ect... once you get outside of caldari guns are the way to go. More damage, more fun, Yarr Sorry for no real answer but you will get more damage out of guns with another race b/c your will get more damage bounses with other races, caldira is all about range. Missile damage sucks unless your in a drake, caracal, raven ect... hope that helps -------------------------- Guns dont Kill People Drones Do
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.18 03:55:00 - [5] Guns do more damage for PvP. That's it. You're right about pretty much everything else. And even the DPS advantage is mitigated by the fact that: -Missiles don't track, so are just as usefull at 0km as they are at their max range -Don't use cap -Immune to tracking disruptors -Not as badly penalized by Damps/ECM (FoF missiles) -Don't have to switch ammo types for different ranges -Can pick the damage type most harmful to the target -Benefit the most from Target Painters -Take less time to skill up Go train missiles and be a happy Caldari. FOR THE EMPEROR!
Logan Weavend Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:15:00 - [6] So what about small scale PvP, just engagements against pirates and the like while I am ratting? On my gun outfit people got really close to me and I had to web them- would missiles be better in that situation as well, or are guns better for fleet battles and one on one? --------------- So what, I popped a few pirate pods; so what I have a bad security status? Pirates deserve to be podded you fools, sometimes you have to play dirty to beat 'em! Rock on state!
Robet Katrix Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:15:00 - [7] when your fighting npc's missiles pwn the **** out of guns. This is not in question and everyone knows it. versus actual players GUNS > missiles. with only 2million sp both are gonna suck in pvp though.
Nines Tslaruk Minmatar Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:28:00 - [8] Edited by: Nines Tslaruk on 18/01/2007 04:25:45 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Missiles don't track, so are just as usefull at 0km as they are at their max range However, they do significantly less damage to things moving fast. When I'm moving at full speed in my taranis, a cruise missile (depending on damage type) does anywhere from 3 to 20 damage, whereas if I were sitting still it would put me into half armor. ------------------- Been podded?
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:38:00 - [9] Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/01/2007 04:38:33 Originally by: Logan Weavend So what about small scale PvP, just engagements against pirates and the like while I am ratting? On my gun outfit people got really close to me and I had to web them- would missiles be better in that situation as well, or are guns better for fleet battles and one on one? Guns: +Hit instantly at any range (aslong as they're within your falloff) +Do more damage on average +Are the only real solution when fighting in fleet +Are better against very fast ships (if you can track) +Good for pvp at all ranges -Hybrids & lasers use cap to fire -big guns rarely hit small ships if they keep a high transversal velocity -Need to reload to hit at different ranges (not really a problem for Amarr) -Have optimal ranges that need to be adhered to for maximum damage Missiles: +Consistent damage at any range upto its maximum +Can load different missiles to do all damage types +Have no true counter measure (other than ECM & damps, defenders don't really work) +Very good for npc'ing due to reliable consistent damage +Good for pvp at close-medium range +Don't need cap to fire -Missiles take time to reach target (which effectively rules them out of fleet engagements) -Low damage over time compared to comparitive size of turret. Means missile ships are generally poor 1v1 platforms. -Damage bonuses only apply to kinetic (on Caldari ships), arguably the least useful damage type. Pigeon holes certain classes of ships. -Poor against interceptors and very fast ships as they avoid your damage by going very fast. Turrets still have a chance to hit based on transversal velocity and lucky wrecking hits. In summary they're two very different weapon platforms. If you want to 1v1 and take part in large fleet operations guns are generally your friend. If you want to operate in small gangs both weapon classes are as good as each other. If you want to npc missiles are significantly better. Understand that they're different, not better or worse overall You'll be happy with the merits of both systems but also irritated by the downsides. Both have advantages and disadvantages, it just depends what you want to do. Ignore the intense forum rabble, Eve's weapons systems are as balanced as they've ever been.
Ice Conch	Posted - 2007.01.18 04:45:00 - [10] pve - missiles pvp - guns simply put

Dr Fighter	Posted - 2007.01.18 05:13:00 - [11] guns go pew pew pew missiles eventully go pop guns are therefore better.
Ecky X SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.18 05:54:00 - [12] Similar to what was said above, but: Generally, gunships get better bonuses. Caldari kinda get the shaft as far as PvP with guns, since both Gallente and Minmatar get damage bonuses on most of their ships. Also, as said above, guns do a lot more damage. Autocannons, while only able to hit effectively at <15km usually, might do double damage. Also, if you're in a large gang with good leadership, you'll find that missiles do absolutely nothing. The target will be dead before your missiles reach anyway. While missiles are generally considered the best for PvE, I've found artillery to do a very good job as well. They don't eat cap, you can choose your damage type, and Minnie ships usually have decent drone bays to kill the smaller stuff.
Spiderweb Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:41:00 - [13] with 2 mil SP dont expect your guns to be better than your launchers. Its a known fact that missiles are more effectie at low SP than guns. However the higher you raise the gunnery skills , guns shine brighter than missiles. but you need something around 3mil SP on guns alone to start talking about their effectiveness. ----------------------------------------------- "For today, the arm of Unity clenched its fist..."
Ecky X SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:51:00 - [14] Edited by: Ecky X on 18/01/2007 06:48:33 Edited by: Ecky X on 18/01/2007 06:48:14 I wouldn't say that... I fought a Raven, Drake, and Enyo yesterday in my Tempest... killed the Raven and Enyo, but the Drake got away due to him staying out of scramble range. They told me in local I might as well quit shooting, I was dead. Kinda turned around on them. I have 1.4mil SP in gunnery. 650mm scout FTW. Not to say that Minnie BS4 doesn't help.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.18 06:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 18/01/2007 06:48:33 Edited by: Ecky X on 18/01/2007 06:48:14 I wouldn't say that... I fought a Raven, Drake, and Enyo yesterday in my Tempest... killed the Raven and Enyo, but the Drake got away due to him staying out of scramble range. They told me in local I might as well quit shooting, I was dead. Kinda turned around on them. I have 1.4mil SP in gunnery. 650mm scout FTW. Not to say that Minnie BS4 doesn't help. A raven shouldve been able to take you alone tbh.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.01.18 07:36:00 - [16] Use both...we need more ships that can use both. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.18 07:53:00 - [17] Missiles are better than guns, vastly better for the time invested, and the pvp advantages of guns are over-rated. People also neglect the pvp disadvantages of guns, which are vulnerability to disruption, transversal, and close-fighting/range/ammo selection issues. In general, missiles > guns. Even in pvp. While the gunnery person is spending 3m in turret skills just to draw even, the missile user is pulling ahead everywhere else.
gfldex Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.18 08:41:00 - [18] In typical fleet situtations a BS is killed every 5-15 sec. The range is between 150 to 250km. Now look how long it takes your missiles to travel that far and how many volleys will do any damage. For your problems with hitting targets, well you fly caldari. That means your have to shield tank with guns and that is not what you want. If you dont have to tank you can help your guns with tracking comps and painters. As soon as you are able to use tec 2 guns and ammo your will be able to see the real difference to missiles. Whereby tec 2 missiles are not that much of an advantage. My corp is not recruiting missile spammers anymore. That is mostly because we dont have need for them in our fleets and they would just eat up resources in return. And it filters a lot ppl out that use F1-F6 instead of their brain.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.18 09:49:00 - [19] People that say that missiles have NO counter, never tried smart bombs right? Sure when there si a lot of lag it is not an option , but if the region is not crowded they are quite effective. A temnpest can defeat a raven. Just stay 19 Km and dampen him enough to bring him to 18km lock range. It is not simple, but works since raven is too slow to get away,specially since it usualy is not equiped with MWD or AB. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Smoking Mirror In general, missiles > guns. Even in pvp. No that's wrong. In fleets missiles are completly useless since the called target will be down before your missiles have travelled that far. Therefor you're not contributing anything to achieve victory. You're just increasing lag.

twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:15:00 - [21] PvP wise guns you can get alot more damage out of but they take alot more skill to use. As for the person who said you get alot more dmg from missiles ratting you havent seen my geddon rat .
Davros Johnstone The Sanctum	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:19:00 - [22] I personally feel missiles are damn useless things. Eve is all about taste... some say amarr are borked, some say matar are.... who cares? Use what you like most!
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:32:00 - [23] In the end it comes down to taste. Both can be good for different situations. I know people with 10M in gunnery and some with 10M in missiles - both are good for different things but in the end they both do the same job, kill people that come across our borders Basilisk Fitting Link
Exus Die Trying Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:35:00 - [24] If your final goal is to be a uber solopwnmobile un pvp, then go for guns, takes longer to train but vastly more tactic, more ship to use, more tricks. missile are usefull in small pvp gangs. and when skilled they deal extrem damage. cerberus, drake, gila are some exellent skirmish warfare gang damage dealers. ----------------------
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.18 10:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Djerin Originally by: Smoking Mirror In general, missiles > guns. Even in pvp. No that's wrong. In fleets missiles are completly useless since the called target will be down before your missiles have travelled that far. Therefor you're not contributing anything to achieve victory. You're just increasing lag. Use your missile people more creatively. :) It's true that in large battleship fleet fights, missiles are at their weakest. And they're still useful.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.01.18 11:59:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarrin Toussaint Right now I'm at around 2 million SP, with 300k of that put into skills designed to give me the edge in long range railgun combat. However, the ammo that would give me my best range also severely limits my damage output. Switching between ammo types can waste valuable time, and often I am forced to load the extreme shortrange ammo a few shots after I let my long range loose in order to have it switched in time to catch it in the short range optimal. Most people use almost excusively short-range ammos in pve, and switch to long-range ammos only against specific targets: tacklers, that pop fast from a distance, and NPC turrets. Anything that would take to much time to travel to just to kill it. They don't bother switching ammos every minute... When you get some more experience using a railboat, you'll use Anti-matter rounds 90% of your time... Originally by: Tarrin Toussaint Also, I am often forced to fly straight away from the enemy in order to limit my transversal and keep them at a range my guns can track at, which poses two difficulties in PvE. One, which is inherant with any long range combat, is that I am forced to take a very long walk back to pickup loot. The second is that, if I need to escape for whatever reason, I must chose between aligning (if there even is a decent escape route viable while still generally retreating from the enemy's direction) and limiting my damage capability by allowing them more transversal, or going for better damage and hoping I can align in time if I get in a scrape. Today, with only 80k in missiles, I was ratting in .4 and, besides having plenty of cap for midslot shielding abilities, I never had any problems with frigates or the like getting under my guns. With my Ferox gun setup, I often had to wait while drones and assaults slowly took out frigates that would rush me during missions... ridiculous shuffling for ammo or loading slots with different ammo just to have at least one gun firing at all times. Using different ammos on the same guns is a big No-No, whatever the context. Here's an advice: in a gunboat, always, always fit a good webifier (86.5% of 90%), and an afterburner. If something orbit you at 7.5km, kill your own speed (Ctrl-Space), web it, and after a few second it will crawl at 70m/s transerval or less. Even with low skills, 250mm railguns will rip it apart, with 2 salvoes. If something orbit you at 1500m, it may not be enough to hit it consistently. In that case move away from it (using the afterburner if necessary), and it will start to follow you, slowly because you webbed it, and kill his own transversal speed: sitting duck for your guns. Originally by: Tarrin Toussaint Please, help me understand why anyone would use guns over missiles. As it is, I feel I have wasted an enormous amount of SP in a useless skill, and will be switching my setups to all missile. The greatest strenght of missiles is that they can choose their damage type, and don't require many sp to be reasonnably effective. Ideal for a new player, of missions. I find guns not only more effective with high-sp, but also less boring. And each missile that wander uselessly in space because the previous missile popped the target is wasted dps. That doesn't happen with guns. If you'd like more advice, you can convo me in-game... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.18 12:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Nines Tslaruk Edited by: Nines Tslaruk on 18/01/2007 04:25:45 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Missiles don't track, so are just as usefull at 0km as they are at their max range However, they do significantly less damage to things moving fast. When I'm moving at full speed in my taranis, a cruise missile (depending on damage type) does anywhere from 3 to 20 damage, whereas if I were sitting still it would put me into half armor. True, but by comparison, a gunner won't hit you AT ALL! So a little damage is better than no damage at all. As for the fleet fight argument, missiles may be less useful there, but if the FC knows how to use them, they still have potential (i.e. don't fire at the primary, fire at the tertiary target). FOR THE EMPEROR!
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.01.18 12:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Nines Tslaruk Edited by: Nines Tslaruk on 18/01/2007 04:25:45 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Missiles don't track, so are just as usefull at 0km as they are at their max range However, they do significantly less damage to things moving fast. When I'm moving at full speed in my taranis, a cruise missile (depending on damage type) does anywhere from 3 to 20 damage, whereas if I were sitting still it would put me into half armor. True, but by comparison, a gunner won't hit you AT ALL! So a little damage is better than no damage at all. Well that's not true either. Turrets wont hit targets with high transversals. But they perfectly strike targets going which speed soever if the direction screws transversal.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.18 12:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Djerin Well that's not true either. Turrets wont hit targets with high transversals. But they perfectly strike targets going which speed soever if the direction screws transversal. Yes, that is true, but since the point of going fast is to get a high transversal, the point is somewhat moot. FOR THE EMPEROR!
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.01.18 12:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Djerin on 18/01/2007 12:37:36 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Djerin Well that's not true either. Turrets wont hit targets with high transversals. But they perfectly strike targets going which speed soever if the direction screws transversal. Yes, that is true, but since the point of going fast is to get a high transversal, the point is somewhat moot. Well high transversal is useless at 200km. Hm, ok, not entirely useless but you know what i mean. So Speedy Gonzales needs to approach - he prolly wants to do something anyways. While he is approaching he can just hope noone's gonna fire a turret volley up his direction. But he doesn't care at all about any type of missiles coming along. If he can make it into sort of a close orbit he's laughing both at turrets and missiles. Then the only thing that worries him is heavy nos and alike turning of the mwd.



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