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Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2007.01.18 12:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Robet Katrix when your fighting npc's missiles pwn the **** out of guns. This is not in question and everyone knows it.
versus actual players GUNS > missiles.
with only 2million sp both are gonna suck in pvp though.
robet isnt it a bit ironic you telling anyone they suck?
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.01.18 12:57:00 -
[32]
Don't be fooled by the "gunnery takes longer to train thing".
All relevant missile boats are shield tankers, remember it's about the finished article not just the weapons system. It takes just aslong to fully skill shield tanking missile ships as it does any gunboat. The time invested in engineering relative to mechanic more than outweighs the extra time invested in training smaller guns.
In short if you want to fly a shield tanking missile boat just as much time needs to be invested in training.
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Mogubu
League of Gentlemen O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.01.18 13:18:00 -
[33]
Good point. I was suprised when I gave up my missionrunning days and decided to get those armortanking skills up. The armorskills was... faster.
My gunnery still sux tho, damn my pretty intaki attributes. ---
Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me! |
Madelchai
Clandestine Vector Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.18 14:18:00 -
[34]
What it comes down to, and what most new people don't seem to realize, is that to use almost anything to any real effectiveness in this game, particuarly in PvP it takes time and training. There really is no instant gratification in EVE.
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Logan Weavend
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:08:00 -
[35]
Alright, well what about Nos and vamps in PvP? Yesterday I was in my Caracel (thank goodness it wasn't soemthing epxensive) fooling around in lowsec, had killed a few pirates, when a Pilgrim jumps in less than 4km away from me and first vamps me dry in the matter of ten seconds, then proceeds to destroy me in less than a minute while i only manage to start biting at his shield. I would have been even deader with guns if I had been in my Ferox, and even the massive passive shielding would have been nothing against that nos. --------------- So what, I popped a few pirate pods; so what I have a bad security status? Pirates deserve to be podded you fools, sometimes you have to play dirty to beat 'em! Rock on state! |
Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 02:15:00 -
[36]
Neither. 5 T2 Ogres w/ dmg bonus >> Everything.
Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
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Plymer Ization
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nines Tslaruk Edited by: Nines Tslaruk on 18/01/2007 04:25:45
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Missiles don't track, so are just as usefull at 0km as they are at their max range
However, they do significantly less damage to things moving fast. When I'm moving at full speed in my taranis, a cruise missile (depending on damage type) does anywhere from 3 to 20 damage, whereas if I were sitting still it would put me into half armor.
Off topic,
Whoa, you're alive? Haven't seen you in a while
On topic,
Unlike missiles, 300k SP in gunnery is not going to get you anywhere. Guns require much more SP to be effective than missiles, and if you're looking to get into long-range combat, getting tech 2 railguns also gets you access to tech 2 longrange ammo, which has higher range and higher damage than the longest range tech 1 ammo.
Guns for PVP, missiles for PVE, for me anyway.
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Lord Violent
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:45:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lord Violent on 19/01/2007 03:43:25 Guns wh ore killmails, missiles do not. This is all that is important.
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Logan Weavend
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.19 03:53:00 -
[39]
So I guess I have to spend another month ingame training gun specific skills to start thinking about PvP? If that's the case, I am ok with it, I'll get started right away, but what skill specifically should i be dealing with? I have most of the good ones now, I guess I just have to get them to level 5 and get the cert for tech2 rails? --------------- So what, I popped a few pirate pods; so what I have a bad security status? Pirates deserve to be podded you fools, sometimes you have to play dirty to beat 'em! Rock on state! |
J Valkor
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Posted - 2007.01.19 05:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Logan Weavend even the massive passive shielding would have been nothing against that nos.
Please explain to me how a passive shield taker (take me for example, I only have 1 active mode) would have been nothing against his nosses? All it did was effectively gimp his damage to make it impossible for him to destroy my tank.
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Iris Zjedar
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Posted - 2007.01.19 06:31:00 -
[41]
As a missile boat lover who has never been in a fleet battle I am disappointed that I am not welcome and/or can provide no benefit.
As someone mentioned, couldn't a missile boat be assigned the task of attacking the opponents' secondary targets such as webbers, scramblers and so on to provide some benefit to the fleet?
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Fredonan
Caldari Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.01.19 06:54:00 -
[42]
Guns over missiles... missiles over guns...
I'm Caldari, I started my life vowing to never train for anything other than Caldari and the unholy spam of ungodly missiles. (Okay so now I'm flying an Armageddon, but it chews through Sanshas so fast!)
You've already seen what most think of missiles/guns so I won't re-iterate what's been said.
However I will contend with the point of missiles being useless in fleet battles, I've been in a few to know that isn't true, however what should be said is this: Missiles used by unthinking people are useless in a fleet fight. In your standard fleet fight, let's say 50 on 50 at a gate at 200Km or so, guns will reign supreme yes this is true but as a professional Scorpion pilot who's CMs reach well over 200Km I know for a fact that in the lag of a fleet battle a Scorpion can jam/damp/disrupt 4 good targets, and then deploy the CMs to scare off at least 2 other ships.
The vast majority of people in a fleet fight are worried about alignment, primary and oh dear god I'm taking damage I must be primary! Warp out! Warp out!
Missile users who smartly deploy their missiles can panic/force the warp out of several ships at once, depleted the over-all enemy fleet even if its only for a few moments while they warp back in. Ravens and Scorpions excel in this with their ability to run insane missile ranges and decent EW suites, since the EW ships don't care about primary anyway, as their goal is to jam/damp/disrupt as many targets as possible, missiles become a delayed, but effective addition to their already evil fleet abilities.
Not to mention a well-piloted Raven with a full T2 setup will pulverise just about any ship out there. (Note WELL-PILOTED, a moron in a shiny ship does not mean well-piloted, I'm sure someone is going to say 'I killed a T2 Raven in my ibis so stfu caldari pig',:) but you cannot deny that the Raven is one hell of a fine ship.)
Caldari and missiles are very diverse and effective weapons in all situations, but it takes some good thinking to make them so, like guns and ranges and ammo-types you have to think about how to use your missiles for different situations.
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Sexorella hotz
Beasts of Burden
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Posted - 2007.01.19 07:19:00 -
[43]
Well, here's my two cents, I trained missiles first, and am still predominantly a missile user. But because I trained missiles first, I'm as effective as someone who would've spent 3x the training in guns at my age, and in that time, I've trained a ton of other things that have managed to make me effective in aspects besides damage output, things like drones, shield AND armor tank, lots of electronics and engineering otherwise, various utility roles, so forth and so on, and the skills that will effect all my gameplay, capacitor and so forth.
Missiles are a great place to start regardless of what anyone will tell you. That said, I'm at about a year old and my skillpoints in gunnery are just starting to pass my skillpoints in missiles. I enjoy my gunnery ships more, but my missile ships are still very useful for making money and getting by.
As for fleet battles, I agree with what one guy said about being creative. I use my raven to pop tacklers out by the snipers. My raven sits there all innocent like but can one pop an intie on its way in with no transversal and a delicious MWD-style sig radius. Let snipers snipe, you're new to the game, get some quick and good missile skills and start ranking up the skills that will effect your gameplay globally, using missiles to get by day-to-day.
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Seine
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.19 08:54:00 -
[44]
Because they are fun maybe? Oh I forgot no one plays for fun anymore. It's always "uberest" "best" "Leetest" "min this" "max that"...man, this is getting depressing.
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2007.01.19 09:40:00 -
[45]
1) I realize that this is just a PERCEPTION. That the devs are not stupid, they are not simply Caldari fans giving them advantages BUT...
2) My perception is that Caldari is the strongest race overall both for PVE and PVP.
Yes missiles take time to reach their target. Yes when skilled up guns can probably do more raw damage under the most ideal conditions.
But under battle conditions missiles simply do better.
They do more reliable damage, they never do "your missile barely hits xxx" they always do the full damage they are calculated to do, under even the crappiest conditions. You could be mwding around the other guy at max speed trying to stay alive, your missiles will still be hitting for full damage.
To me Caldari are borg-like. No passion, no crits, no instapop, no rebel yells BUT....
They have the longest lock range, no tracking issues, can use ALL their cap for tank, can do purely all 4 damage types without having to pick a range, and have more midslots to use for ECM and dampers.
To me Caldari just pwn.
Like I said I realize this is just my perception, I know that guns are probably just as good, but it is very hard to see.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.19 11:38:00 -
[46]
Edited by: LUKEC on 19/01/2007 11:34:33 raven with javelins or cruises + full rack of damps with proper skills and some knowledge where to stick those damps at is 4tw fleet boat
Not to mention that you need like 10mil sp to have it all maxed. -------- Do you have Amarr Encryption lvl5 trained? Contact me. |
Iteken Hotori
Minmatar GTE Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.19 11:49:00 -
[47]
(guns) Auto-cannons make the coolest noises (guns) Artillery makes very cool noises (guns) WhaleGuns make failry funky noises (And Fire Whales....)
(missiles) Make silly whooshing firework noises.
Oh, and they do more damage & DPS in the hands of a skilled pilot (where skill != SP, i mean actual piloting skill). Warning: May contain flaming, trolling, swearing, typos, crimes against grammar, obscure reference to old films, in jokes, rambling, ranting and references to EvE. |
Boobiq
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Posted - 2007.01.19 12:02:00 -
[48]
There is nothing wrong with missiles, everyone's whining cos there is too many caldari pilots and most of em carebear. In small gangs (1 tackler 2 dmg dealers) raven is quite useful tho. No insta dmg but missiles are not that slow either...200 m tier 3 BS wont drop dead insta so missiles hit eventually. Missiles, drones or guns its just matter of taste.
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2007.01.19 12:40:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 19/01/2007 12:37:52
Originally by: LUKEC raven with javelins or cruises + full rack of damps with proper skills and some knowledge where to stick those damps at is 4tw fleet boat
Not to mention that you need like 10mil sp to have it all maxed.
Yeasss that is right
Just a shame that it takes ALOT more skillpoints to max out missiles than one of the turret branches ---------------------------------------
make the caldari e-peen worth showing!!
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Flitz Farseeker
Gallente Eve guardians
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Posted - 2007.01.19 13:24:00 -
[50]
No missile slots on my boats!
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Logan Weavend
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.20 19:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: Logan Weavend even the massive passive shielding would have been nothing against that nos.
Please explain to me how a passive shield taker (take me for example, I only have 1 active mode) would have been nothing against his nosses? All it did was effectively gimp his damage to make it impossible for him to destroy my tank.
Well, he was ripping through me, even the large shield extenders just added a few seconds of life. He was in a pilgrim dealing massive damage between the drones and lasers. --------------- So what, I popped a few pirate pods; so what I have a bad security status? Pirates deserve to be podded you fools, sometimes you have to play dirty to beat 'em! Rock on state! |
Rania Serlia
World Order The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.01.20 19:27:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Rania Serlia on 20/01/2007 19:25:01 He had lasers on his pilgrim?
Bwahahaha, *cough*
EDIT: But yes, a caracal pretty miuch has no chance against a 200m isk T2 cruiser.
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Dagnis
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2007.01.20 20:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Logan Weavend
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: Logan Weavend even the massive passive shielding would have been nothing against that nos.
Please explain to me how a passive shield taker (take me for example, I only have 1 active mode) would have been nothing against his nosses? All it did was effectively gimp his damage to make it impossible for him to destroy my tank.
Well, he was ripping through me, even the large shield extenders just added a few seconds of life. He was in a pilgrim dealing massive damage between the drones and lasers.
T2 > T1 what do u expect?
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.01.20 20:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Logan Weavend
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: Logan Weavend even the massive passive shielding would have been nothing against that nos.
Please explain to me how a passive shield taker (take me for example, I only have 1 active mode) would have been nothing against his nosses? All it did was effectively gimp his damage to make it impossible for him to destroy my tank.
Well, he was ripping through me, even the large shield extenders just added a few seconds of life. He was in a pilgrim dealing massive damage between the drones and lasers.
Waitwaitwait...
You mentioned 'Pilgrim' 'Lasers' and 'Massive damage' in the same sentence. I'm going to guess you were confused as you're new to PvP and didn't know what was happening, right?
Pilgrim's do mediocre DPS at best, and never fit lasers.
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William Hamilton
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Posted - 2007.01.20 20:55:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cipher7
1) I realize that this is just a PERCEPTION. That the devs are not stupid, they are not simply Caldari fans giving them advantages BUT...
2) My perception is that Caldari is the strongest race overall both for PVE and PVP.
Yes missiles take time to reach their target. Yes when skilled up guns can probably do more raw damage under the most ideal conditions.
But under battle conditions missiles simply do better.
They do more reliable damage, they never do "your missile barely hits xxx" they always do the full damage they are calculated to do, under even the crappiest conditions. You could be mwding around the other guy at max speed trying to stay alive, your missiles will still be hitting for full damage.
To me Caldari are borg-like. No passion, no crits, no instapop, no rebel yells BUT....
They have the longest lock range, no tracking issues, can use ALL their cap for tank, can do purely all 4 damage types without having to pick a range, and have more midslots to use for ECM and dampers.
To me Caldari just pwn.
Like I said I realize this is just my perception, I know that guns are probably just as good, but it is very hard to see.
Missiles don't always hit for full damage, they lose damage depending on the explosion velocity against the target's velocity, and the explosion radius against the target's signature radius.
The missile guide has more detailed information on this.
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Teinyhr
Minmatar United Systems Navy
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Posted - 2007.01.20 21:24:00 -
[56]
Originally by: William Hamilton Missiles don't always hit for full damage, they lose damage depending on the explosion velocity against the target's velocity, and the explosion radius against the target's signature radius.
The missile guide has more detailed information on this.
I guess what he meant was that missiles always do set amount of damage, vs. projectiles which can altogether miss and have varying damage multipliers and other variables in what damage they do. Cruise missile won't hurt a cruiser much, but it does hurt. -------------------
Originally by: Smagd Besides, specialization is for insects.
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G Dabak
Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.01.20 21:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cipher7
1) I realize that this is just a PERCEPTION. That the devs are not stupid, they are not simply Caldari fans giving them advantages BUT...
2) My perception is that Caldari is the strongest race overall both for PVE and PVP.
Yes missiles take time to reach their target. Yes when skilled up guns can probably do more raw damage under the most ideal conditions.
But under battle conditions missiles simply do better.
They do more reliable damage, they never do "your missile barely hits xxx" they always do the full damage they are calculated to do, under even the crappiest conditions. You could be mwding around the other guy at max speed trying to stay alive, your missiles will still be hitting for full damage.
To me Caldari are borg-like. No passion, no crits, no instapop, no rebel yells BUT....
They have the longest lock range, no tracking issues, can use ALL their cap for tank, can do purely all 4 damage types without having to pick a range, and have more midslots to use for ECM and dampers.
To me Caldari just pwn.
Like I said I realize this is just my perception, I know that guns are probably just as good, but it is very hard to see.
I don't know, I'd say they're about average with the rest. Probably the worst race to go with if you like general combat, but best if you want to do EW, make money, or snipe (and you'll need to make that money if you want to afford a Rokh with 8 425mm IIs).
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2007.01.20 21:38:00 -
[58]
Missiles do less damage when the target is moving fast?
Uhh... so do turrets. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.01.20 21:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Missiles do less damage when the target is moving fast?
Uhh... so do turrets.
Incorrect.
Missiles do less damage if the target is moving fast in any direction at all. Making piloting a ship to reduce missile damage very easy.
Turrets do less damage if the target is moving quickly transversally... which means that 4 out of 6 axis of movement are viable when trying to reduce turret damage.
It's still amazing to me how many people are utterly lacking enough in-game experience to understand that missiles and turrets are not imbalanced... but different. The general sentiment that 'Missiles = PVE, Turrets = PVP' is accurate... although it lacks any explantion. However, there are literally dozens of threads that can be dug up that articulate why missiles are great for PVE and why turrets excel in PVP. Another thread such as this one is only another clueless post on top of countless others.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.01.20 22:49:00 -
[60]
Shocking aint it.
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