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Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 14:26:46 - [1] - Quote Hi Guys, This a little rant about mining.... All we`ve seen for many moons is new combat modules, new combat ships, revamps on missiles, revamps on railguns, combat scenario`s (i.e. frostline), introduction of the Jovians etc etc. May I ask when you guys (CCP) have plans to do something/upgrade mining? Mining is the base of the game, almost everyone does it at some point, many make their game livelihood`s out of it, many, many more depend on miners for their game i.e. ship manufacturing. Damn...I`ve even seen a CODE member mining! (Albeit in a Venture!) At the moment we`re just sitting ducks, waiting to be killed or bumped into position for a kill. Bumping - When ocean going mounted ships 'bumped' other ships (i.e. Ramming) it was considered a hostile act an it should be considered that in the game as well..never mind the fact that a smaller ship can bump a freighter and even make it move...without damage! (Pretty much like seeing a dingy bumping a cargo freighter - we all know what would happen there!) Mining - When are we going to see tech 3 mining ships, maybe new mining techs, new mining lasers, mining rigs, more module spaces on existing ships...hell maybe even a mining cloak! Compare the number of combat ships to mining ships, or the number of guns and missile to mining lasers etc. Frostline would have been a great opportunity to introduce new mining tech. ORE gets busted free, the Serpentis (who`ve held ORE for so long) just get busted and Damn! (can I say damn?) It just so happens ORE were working on new and wonderful mining tech! Each nation has it`s own ships, from rookie ships to Titans and even individualized transport ships....but no mining ships? Same can be said for the NPC nations. We`ve seen massive changes in NPC ships...but no mining ships. With the introduction of Citadels (fantastic move by the way), the demand for minerals is only going to increase, which will mean more miners, more miners, more sitting ducks! ...and by more sitting ducks that could mean more upset players (just like me), who spend many hours mining only to get shot out of the 'sky' by cheap, crappy little ships with negligible action taken on the aggressor...they just wait 15 minutes and buy a new cheap, crappy ship!!! (Ganking sounds like an intrusive medical experience!) Hopefully, you (CCP) will tell me that this is all in the pipeline, maybe fly me over to Iceland to share all my idea`s (although I would prefer if you could relocate to Hawaii or somewhere hotter)... ...but if you`re not looking at it and the next 12 months of changes are all going to be pew pew related... ...maybe, just maybe you could give it a thought!
Valkin Mordirc 1772	Posted - 2015.12.26 14:47:23 - [2] - Quote New mining tech? Liiiiike the Endurance? The just released new tech 2 mining frigate? Also EVE doesn't need a ton of different mining ships, Mining is a low intensity feature, it very basic and it doesn't need 24 mining ships in it's current form. I feel like call for a bump nerf and the gank complaint is a hidden troll trap. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 15:18:57 - [3] - Quote Hi Valkin, This mail was broad spectrum, please read it again and try to understand it this time. P.s. Miners don`t mine in Frigates, that we leave to 'bump nerfs' (what ever those are!) :)
Valkin Mordirc 1772	Posted - 2015.12.26 15:33:05 - [4] - Quote Fo sho on the troll bait. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 16:34:09 - [5] - Quote Hi Valkin, No bridge here. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 9297	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:14:00 - [6] - Quote God dayum... it's like every miner whine rolled into one. Thorn Davidus wrote: May I ask when you guys (CCP) have plans to do something/upgrade mining? ... (snip)... Frostline would have been a great opportunity to introduce new mining tech. ORE gets busted free, the Serpentis (who`ve held ORE for so long) just get busted and Damn! (can I say damn?) It just so happens ORE were working on new and wonderful mining tech! They have been introducing Tech 2 mining frigates that are quite useful in "hostile" areas. That's something. Thorn Davidus wrote: At the moment we`re just sitting ducks, waiting to be killed or bumped into position for a kill. Soooooooo... do something about it? You have tools like everyone else. Orbit the rocks you are mining. This makes bumping MUCH harder. Use a tanky Procurer. Those things are virtually ungankable. Thorn Davidus wrote: Bumping - When ocean going mounted ships 'bumped' other ships (i.e. Ramming) it was considered a hostile act an it should be considered that in the game as well..never mind the fact that a smaller ship can bump a freighter and even make it move...without damage! (Pretty much like seeing a dingy bumping a cargo freighter - we all know what would happen there!) Pssssssst... you don't want this. If you make bumping into an "aggressive act" then people will bump miners into other people... or surround a miner that is sitting still and wait. This all means that it will be legal to shoot miners at will! Also... - bumping is used quite often in PvP. They deal with it. You can do. - Freighters are not meant to be moved "solo." Get "support" when moving it. Mining - When are we going to see tech 3 mining ships, maybe new mining techs, new mining lasers, mining rigs, more module spaces on existing ships...hell maybe even a mining cloak! Compare the number of combat ships to mining ships, or the number of guns and missile to mining lasers etc. Thorn Davidus wrote: Each nation has it`s own ships, from rookie ships to Titans and even individualized transport ships....but no mining ships? Same can be said for the NPC nations. We`ve seen massive changes in NPC ships...but no mining ships. There used to be "racial mining ships." They were the... - Navitas - Tormentor - Burst - Bantam - Vexor - Arbitrator - Scythe - Osprey Then the DEVs realized that no one used those ships for mining because barges were so much better... in every way. So they phased out the racial mining ships. And everyone cheered. Thorn Davidus wrote: ...and by more sitting ducks that could mean more upset players (just like me), who spend many hours mining only to get shot out of the 'sky' by cheap, crappy little ships with negligible action taken on the aggressor...they just wait 15 minutes and buy a new cheap, crappy ship!!! Dude... Procurers. They tank like battlecruisers. No one is going to gank you in them. And if they are, then you have either done something to really **** them off or are not being ganked at all... you are either at war or in low-sec (in which case, it is all your own fault). And if you want to avoid bumping... don't sit still and use the "terrain" to block people from lining up their bump. People who gank are not supernatural players who are using equipment and mechanics that no one else has access to. They are players just like you and can be beaten using the very same equipment and mechanics. Also... use Procurers. How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4214	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:19:51 - [7] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: Bumping - When ocean going mounted ships 'bumped' other ships (i.e. Ramming) it was considered a hostile act an it should be considered that in the game as well..never mind the fact that a smaller ship can bump a freighter and even make it move...without damage! (Pretty much like seeing a dingy bumping a cargo freighter - we all know what would happen there!) Oh God, not this again. Can't you use the search function dude? What about friendly bumping? Also, learn the game mechanics and what a MWD does to your ship when it is turned on. Might also help deal with these problems...you know learning to play the game you are supposedly playing. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 990	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:22:07 - [8] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: ...revamps on missiles... ...making missiles the worst weapon system in EVE in early 2007... is what you wanted to write. You are welcome, Merry Christmas! Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Valkin Mordirc 1779	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:27:35 - [9] - Quote On the note of bumping causing damage, I much rather have anti matter shot at me, Then a Massive Ship the size of an Aircraft carrier hurtling at me at 5km/s Just as a reference, the NATO 5.56 has a muzzle velocity at around 900m/s and FMJ can pierce thin sheets of steel Seems like a more effective way to bump honestly. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4214	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:35:17 - [10] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: ...and by more sitting ducks that could mean more upset players (just like me), who spend many hours mining only to get shot out of the 'sky' by cheap, crappy little ships with negligible action taken on the aggressor...they just wait 15 minutes and buy a new cheap, crappy ship!!! To reiterate what Shah Fluffers has already pointed out a tanked out procurer or even better a skiff will send the gankers looking elsewhere. Yes, your ISK/hour will take a hit, but what happens to your ISK/hour when you factor in ship losses? What you weren't doing that? Oh my. Also, if you have a boosting ship...maybe have them fit command links for combat, like boosting your tank. With a skiff with an actual tank you'll have an EHP of over 119,000. No resist will be below 80.7%. The resists you'll most likely need, thermal and kinetic will be 84.6% and 82% respectively. If your orca has seige warfare links your EHP will go over 134,000 and your lowest resist will be 81.7%. Pop out combat drones and you might even whore on a few of mails of any ganker foolish enough to engage you...but chances are they'll slide down the belt and go for the retriever or the coveter, or even the hulks or mackinaws. In fact, eventually you might change your attitude towards code...they'll be clearing the belt of....wait....wait....your competition! Oh and I'll spare you the numbers if you over-heat your stuff. TL;DR: Your skiff can have a BS level tank if you aren't completely dumb and horrible at this game. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Netan MalDoran Last Garrison 175	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:39:56 - [11] - Quote IB4L "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was! Falcon's truth
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4214	Posted - 2015.12.26 18:44:01 - [12] - Quote Netan MalDoran wrote: IB4L This will not be locked for at least 15 pages...but hey, you made the first page. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Hopelesshobo Tactical Nuclear Penguin's 521	Posted - 2015.12.26 19:12:48 - [13] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: There used to be "racial mining ships." They were the... - Bantam - Osprey O, the memories... Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 13322	Posted - 2015.12.26 19:52:44 - [14] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Netan MalDoran wrote: IB4L This will not be locked for at least 15 pages...but hey, you made the first page. ezwal used to call these "lighting rod threads ". each subforum has one at any given time, keeps the crybabys and the trolls in one place and easy to manage while the rest of the threads can be kept relatively peaceful. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 167	Posted - 2015.12.26 20:27:09 - [15] - Quote if anything, Rorq still need a love to make them viable to get out of POS and actual get used
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:08:49 - [16] - Quote Hi Guys, I think it`s awesome that my post has received so much feedback, thank you everyone for that...both positive ....and otherwise! Rather than take an individual item i.e. ganking, take the whole picture. What has happened in the last year to improve mining, mining ships, mining modules, mining rigs... Then compare that to the changes that have happened throughout Eve for just about everything else... Is mining being left behind? Is there a mining standstill? Individually.... You older folk , speak of mining vessels that are now redundant (and before my time on Eve), I`m pretty sure that there were redundant combat vessels also which have passed into obscurity... That`s not what this post is about..it`s about what`s happening now and in the future, redundant vessels don`t mean that newer vessels cannot be created or implemented. Primary bumping and secondary bumping are different things....primary bumping which is something being done to ships to get them into a kill zone should be hostile (obviously) while a secondary bump (i.e. into a friendly) can be easily distinguished. Not really an issue, just takes an ounce of thought. Larger ships as a rule move far slower than their counterparts (smaller/faster vessels), should bumping therefore be used aggressively by a far larger ship, a smaller/faster ship has ample opportunity to move/evade. Should a bump connect, then Yes, there should be damage incurred... i.e. A skiff (lacking stabs) tackled by a Sabre should most certainly be able to bump it causing damage. Why not? Teckos Pech - not sure what you mean about the search option, could you please extrapolate....but then again your comment could be considered trolling! Procurers & Skiffs fall victim just like everyone else...what are the options of an independent miner in a tackled procurer with a tech 2 stabs versus 5 frigates/destroyers? ...or 1 camper with a cyno? Skiffs are 170 million, Catalysts are 1 million...Catalysts have 8 high slots, 2 medium, 3 low. Skiffs Have 1 high slot, 5 medium, 3 low. Twice as many slots at only 170th of the price! elitatwo - ty. ShahFluffers - it most certainly is. The shooting of miners happens by the hundred`s everyday...hence my post. My thanks once again to everyone that has replied, you are all raising issues that are relevant and need addressing, and the more posts we have, the more attention it will hopefully attract. Thorn
Maria Dragoon Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:11:55 - [17] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Thorn Davidus wrote: Bumping - When ocean going mounted ships 'bumped' other ships (i.e. Ramming) it was considered a hostile act an it should be considered that in the game as well..never mind the fact that a smaller ship can bump a freighter and even make it move...without damage! (Pretty much like seeing a dingy bumping a cargo freighter - we all know what would happen there!) Oh God, not this again. Can't you use the search function dude? What about friendly bumping? Also, learn the game mechanics and what a MWD does to your ship when it is turned on. Might also help deal with these problems...you know learning to play the game you are supposedly playing. Inbeforejitaexplodesfrommistakebumping
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:16:25 - [18] - Quote Mistakes happen...most of us are human, but I would imagine that there are far fewer accidental bumps than intentional.
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:22:08 - [19] - Quote Then again, it happened at Jita...we all know the sort of stuff that happens at Jita!
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 566	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:23:40 - [20] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: This a little rant about mining.... Last time I checked, this forum was called Features & Ideas, not Features, ideas and rants.
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:30:12 - [21] - Quote They promised me they`d change the Forum name! Damn!!! Not! CCP actually asked me to post here..No really! Got a mail from them! But on a positive note...most people appear to be having a Ranting good time and the feedback is awesome... ...so maybe the title should be changed!
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2928	Posted - 2015.12.26 22:48:29 - [22] - Quote We've had the introduction of New mining ships, New mining lasers, balance passes on mining ships, tweaks to refining and compression, the ores themselves have been rebalanced. What part of mining HASN'T been looked at in the past two years?? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2844	Posted - 2015.12.26 23:22:52 - [23] - Quote What mining ships need is to be treated equally with slots and PG/CPU with ships of their class and have the ability to fit unbonused weapons of their class without nerfing their mining. I.E. Imagine a Covetor with 6 highs, 4 mids, 4 lows (14 slots) like a cruiser. I'd personally call barges BC's as they should be big vessels, but lets use cruisers for now. Hardcap it to 3 strip miners like Command Links are capped on CS. You could even allow a mining coprocessor if you really insisted but I wouldn't bother personally. Then give it 4 turret/launcher slots. It can now fit a prop mod, it can now fit a serious active tank, it can fit a buffer, it can fight rats. This allows several follow on effects to occur. Belt rats in highsec can stop being a total joke and become a challenge. This increases diversity in highsec of income sources even if it's not great income, and increases attentiveness of miners. Miners get used to the idea that even miners have to fight and this helps train them for fighting other players as it means they aren't in a weaponless pacifistic mindset. It means escorts aren't required. While escorts are great in theory in reality it's even more boring than mining. But a mining fleet becomes their own escorts by sheer number of guns on the grid even if each of them is less effective compared to a real combat ship. This then increases fun when the miners are attacked as they feel like they can fight back and do some damage. It creates fitting trade offs in a far more interesting manner, since they now have a bunch of different pressures on their fits rather than not having the room to fit anything so the only valid choice is MLU's.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.26 23:31:11 - [24] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: Hi Guys, I think it`s awesome that my post has received so much feedback, thank you everyone for that...both positive ....and otherwise! Rather than take an individual item i.e. ganking, take the whole picture. What has happened in the last year to improve mining, mining ships, mining modules, mining rigs... Then compare that to the changes that have happened throughout Eve for just about everything else... Is mining being left behind? Is there a mining standstill? No. There have been changes to mining over the years. For example the changes to exhumers. Link Link New mining ships. Link Link Link Quote: Teckos Pech - not sure what you mean about the search option, could you please extrapolate....but then again your comment could be considered trolling! Heh, that's hilarious considering you are at least guilty of re-opening a topic that has been previously locked. There have been a number of topics about bumping being aggression, bumping causing damage, and further nonsense. Quote: Procurers & Skiffs fall victim just like everyone else...what are the options of an independent miner in a tackled procurer with a tech 2 stabs versus 5 frigates/destroyers? ...or 1 camper with a cyno? Skiffs are 170 million, Catalysts are 1 million...Catalysts have 8 high slots, 2 medium, 3 low. Skiffs Have 1 high slot, 5 medium, 3 low. Twice as many slots at only 170th of the price! **** fit procurers and skiffs. The best fit I found on the front page of zkillboard of a skiff ganked in HS had only about half the tank he could have...because the pilot was greedy and fit 3 ice harvester upgrades. And a gank fit catalyst costs about 8 million ISK. You'll need abuot 16 catalysts flown by max skill characters in a 0.05 system to kill a seriously tanked skiff. Most ganked skiffs though are killed in 0.7 systems...by considerably fewer catalysts. Thus, shitfit skiffs. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2930	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:15:32 - [25] - Quote The procurers and skiffs have formidable drone bays and plenty of slots to play with. They get more dps from them than they would unbonused guns. They can fit prop mods. They can fit buffer. These are the barges YOU should use. But for other people who want to mine afk or sacrifice everything for extra yield then they also have choices. Not every barge needs to be able to defend themselves if their owners are willing to sacrifice protection for other benefits. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:26:27 - [26] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: What mining ships need is to be treated equally with slots and PG/CPU with ships of their class and have the ability to fit unbonused weapons of their class without nerfing their mining. I.E. Imagine a Covetor with 6 highs, 4 mids, 4 lows (14 slots) like a cruiser. I'd personally call barges BC's as they should be big vessels, but lets use cruisers for now. Hardcap it to 3 strip miners like Command Links are capped on CS. You could even allow a mining coprocessor if you really insisted but I wouldn't bother personally. Then give it 4 turret/launcher slots. It can now fit a prop mod, it can now fit a serious active tank, it can fit a buffer, it can fight rats. This allows several follow on effects to occur. Belt rats in highsec can stop being a total joke and become a challenge. This increases diversity in highsec of income sources even if it's not great income, and increases attentiveness of miners. Miners get used to the idea that even miners have to fight and this helps train them for fighting other players as it means they aren't in a weaponless pacifistic mindset. It means escorts aren't required. While escorts are great in theory in reality it's even more boring than mining. But a mining fleet becomes their own escorts by sheer number of guns on the grid even if each of them is less effective compared to a real combat ship. This then increases fun when the miners are attacked as they feel like they can fight back and do some damage. It creates fitting trade offs in a far more interesting manner, since they now have a bunch of different pressures on their fits rather than not having the room to fit anything so the only valid choice is MLU's. So let me see, you want your specialized mining ship to get a buff to also have 4 weapon slots...1 slot less than a regular cruisers. No. BTW, have you looked at the drone bonuses for ships like the procurer and the skiff? 50% bonus to the drone HP and damage. It is already a tough little ship with a BS level tank, and decent damage output. Hell, you can be your own damn escort fleet, IMO. You even have a big enough drone bay to fit 5 medium drones and 5 armor repair drones in case anyone actually took armor damage. And no, belt rats are a joke in HS because if you want the big fat juicy ones....go to null. We do not need a diversity of HS incomes especially ISK faucets. Seriously, this part of your post is just terrible. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2844	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:36:48 - [27] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: So let me see, you want your specialized mining ship to get a buff to also have 4 weapon slots...1 slot less than a regular cruisers. No. BTW, have you looked at the drone bonuses for ships like the procurer and the skiff? 50% bonus to the drone HP and damage. It is already a tough little ship with a BS level tank, and decent damage output. Hell, you can be your own damn escort fleet, IMO. You even have a big enough drone bay to fit 5 medium drones and 5 armor repair drones in case anyone actually took armor damage. And no, belt rats are a joke in HS because if you want the big fat juicy ones....go to null. We do not need a diversity of HS incomes especially ISK faucets. Seriously, this part of your post is just terrible. Now tell me how many 'effective' turrets a cruiser has. Also why not? I've given a good bunch of 'why's' that this would be a good change. You are arguing on the 'but miners have to be helpless targets' mentality simply because that's the way it has been without looking at player fun overall. And yes I have looked at the Proc/Skiff, and it could be in drones that they get the DPS but they still don't have the fittings in either slots or PG/CPU to do anything. And the point behind turret slots was to create counterweights. Note how to actually fit 4 turrets you would have to sacrifice a strip miner with the numbers I posted. And not use any other utility highs which could be useful also. And really, stop jumping from one extreme to another. I am not asking for highsec to get officer rats or several million isk bounty BS. I'm asking for it to get more than 10k frigates that die when you sneeze at them. When I say 'income' I'm only expecting maybe 20-30/hour (only if you intensive belt rat warping between belts to find all the spawns). Similar to mining, less than missions. It won't suddenly cause dramatic changes to high sec income, but it will diversify it and introduce people better to non mission income like exists in low & null. Or do you have something against people in highsec being able to make money other ways than missions, and competition with each other.
Thorn Davidus The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:45:05 - [28] - Quote Teckos Pech - thanks for the links, albeit outdated (2013 & 2014). I`ve only been playing Eve for a year and was referred to this forum by a GM, so please feel free to report me for opening a topic which obviously is very sensitive to a great number of people, hence the response. Bumping is not the only topic in this post. Please feel free to read the rest of the post. (suggested) Nevyn Auscent - Totally agree! Daichi Yamato - may I suggest you re-read the original post! Please refer to the time specified...2-3 years ago is seriously outdated and please bear in mind that we`re talking about serious miners. Hi Guys, Just to re-iterate, what has happened to mining in the last year? (Please read the original post) But bearing in mind everything that has been said so far on this post... Why are miners still an easy target? Soft Targets? Why aren`t there T3 mining ships? Why hasn`t mining been updated in the last year like so many other things? And maybe something just a little more personal - why do supposed PvP players brag about killing unarmed vessels? Is it really such a thrill for armed vessels to kill vessels that can`t shoot back?
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3844	Posted - 2015.12.27 00:51:27 - [29] - Quote Highsec rats probably should get buffed. The fact that they're absurdly weak, infrequent and predictable is probably one of the major reasons AFK mining began to exist in the first place. The problems with highsec gameplay are largely extremely predictable and not at all dangerous. At present a retriever can fight off every belt that ever spawns in any highsec belt with a single T1 drone. That level of threat doesn't exactly encourage attentiveness.
Sitting Bull Lakota Careless Bears LLC 53	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:00:33 - [30] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: You older folk , speak of mining vessels that are now redundant (and before my time on Eve), I`m pretty sure that there were redundant combat vessels also which have passed into obscurity... Sniff I'll miss you, Inquisitor. You went from Li'l Missile Murder Frigate that could to Li'l Missile Murder Frig that never got the chance. Sob
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2930	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:15:18 - [31] - Quote Lol what? So you expect the entire game to be updated within two years?? there are far more pressing matters that need your attention if you think 2 years is outdated. Wardecs 2012 Planetary interaction 2009 Incursions 2013 Where as mining was 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Maria Dragoon Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:30:32 - [32] - Quote I have a question for the OP. As it stands, are you talking about ships? Equipment? Or mechanics? Because if you are talking about ships, then those have been passed not all that long ago, with the introduction of entire new ship class, mining frigates. Equipment? I do agree that some of the mining equipment could use some touch up, but with the current mechanics, they are rather balanced as they are. And seeing we are talking about within the current mechanics. Mechanics of mining have really never been changed from the original mechanic, which is target rock, shoot at rock with special laser, get ore. There no real supporting mechanics outside of that that focuses on just the mining side of things. This can result in rather, stagnating play. Which is sad seeing mining is not only a strong industry starting point for new players, but mining is also required for so many things. So you end up with afk mining because to be honest. Fly to point A: Aim at rock, then shoot doesn't exactly create exciting game play. This also in turn results in people selling the minerals at poor prices because they simply don't value their time.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:33:24 - [33] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Lol what? So you expect the entire game to be updated within two years?? there are far more pressing matters that need your attention if you think 2 years is outdated. Wardecs 2012 Planetary interaction 2009 Incursions 2013 Where as mining was 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015... This. especially that last part for crying out loud. There are hundreds of ships in the game and thousands of modules, but somehow mining seems to get some attention every year. FFS, battleships have been **** ever since the speed changes and there is nothing on the horizon to change this. And here is a hint, in these forums it is considered poor form to post a topic that was recently discussed and subsequently locked. Especially if it is a topic that comes up somewhat frequently. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:35:40 - [34] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Highsec rats probably should get buffed. The fact that they're absurdly weak, infrequent and predictable is probably one of the major reasons AFK mining began to exist in the first place. The problems with highsec gameplay are largely extremely predictable and not at all dangerous. At present a retriever can fight off every belt that ever spawns in any highsec belt with a single T1 drone. That level of threat doesn't exactly encourage attentiveness. No, AFK mining is a thing because mining is so God awful boring. Trust me, people manage to semi-AFK mine in NS too. If you want to buff the rats, IDC, really. Just don't buff the rat bounty. 1 trillion ISK entering the game economy every day is more than enough. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 991	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:45:43 - [35] - Quote Maybe there needs to be an open Procurer or Skiff roam. I hear they are quite logi friendly. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:50:31 - [36] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: So let me see, you want your specialized mining ship to get a buff to also have 4 weapon slots...1 slot less than a regular cruisers. No. BTW, have you looked at the drone bonuses for ships like the procurer and the skiff? 50% bonus to the drone HP and damage. It is already a tough little ship with a BS level tank, and decent damage output. Hell, you can be your own damn escort fleet, IMO. You even have a big enough drone bay to fit 5 medium drones and 5 armor repair drones in case anyone actually took armor damage. And no, belt rats are a joke in HS because if you want the big fat juicy ones....go to null. We do not need a diversity of HS incomes especially ISK faucets. Seriously, this part of your post is just terrible. Now tell me how many 'effective' turrets a cruiser has. Also why not? I've given a good bunch of 'why's' that this would be a good change. You are arguing on the 'but miners have to be helpless targets' mentality simply because that's the way it has been without looking at player fun overall. And yes I have looked at the Proc/Skiff, and it could be in drones that they get the DPS but they still don't have the fittings in either slots or PG/CPU to do anything. And the point behind turret slots was to create counterweights. Note how to actually fit 4 turrets you would have to sacrifice a strip miner with the numbers I posted. And not use any other utility highs which could be useful also. And really, stop jumping from one extreme to another. I am not asking for highsec to get officer rats or several million isk bounty BS. I'm asking for it to get more than 10k frigates that die when you sneeze at them. When I say 'income' I'm only expecting maybe 20-30/hour (only if you intensive belt rat warping between belts to find all the spawns). Similar to mining, less than missions. It won't suddenly cause dramatic changes to high sec income, but it will diversify it and introduce people better to non mission income like exists in low & null. Or do you have something against people in highsec being able to make money other ways than missions, and competition with each other. Cruisers generally have 5 turrets if they are gun or missile boats. The procurer and skiff can't do anything? Really, you can't get the tank on those things to BC/BS levels respectively? I consider that pretty impressive and means that a group of them would be a serious problem if they are being used by pilots who are awake and know what they are doing. 10 guys sitting in a belt working together will be a force to be reckoned with. Hell, carry a goddamned mobile depot and refit to shield transporters in the high slot and that way you guys can help anyone who is being targeted. Put our drones out as well, and whore on mails. As for ISK, 20-30/hour...is that million? No. **** no. Tell you what, how about we keep the bounties exactly the same, but you can have NS level rats blapping away at you guys. That should get you HS miners to HTFU enough to actually put some tank on your mining ships. As a reward, if you do happen to get an officer/faction spawn and the loot fairy is nice, meh, I'm fine with that as it wont add ISK to the game. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4221	Posted - 2015.12.27 01:52:59 - [37] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Maybe there needs to be an open Procurer or Skiff roam. I hear they are quite logi friendly. Low sec gate camp with some decent logi support. Small signature too. Throw in the logi support and it would be hilarious seeing procurers and skiffs ganking stuff. The problem is most HS miners sacrifice about 50% of their potential tank for a small gain in mining yield. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2934	Posted - 2015.12.27 02:09:34 - [38] - Quote Maria Dragoon wrote: So you end up with afk mining because to be honest. Fly to point A: Aim at rock, then shoot doesn't exactly create exciting game play. This also in turn results in people selling the minerals at poor prices because they simply don't value their time. Its because its low maintainance game play, but thats how many people like it. Some people mine with several accounts at once, others like to kick back and mine whilst doing chores around the house or chatting with friends over TS. Minerals are cheap because its cheap and easy to mine, everyone can do it, and minerals have other sources like mission loot to push down the prices. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4224	Posted - 2015.12.27 02:40:37 - [39] - Quote BTW, most suggestions to fix mining are terrible. Most of the suggestions are a mini-game. However, that is basically a bad idea. We are going to take a boring activity...add more complexity and it will suddenly become FunGäó. And you'll get the same rewards you do now? Oh joy. I have argued that perhaps...the thing that makes mining feasible in many players eyes is...that it is boring--i.e. a low demand activity one can do while working from home, watching Game of Thrones, doing chores around the house (swinging by the PC every now and then to re-position, re-start the lasers), etc. People always want to make the most boring in game activity more complicated...but where does that get to be fun? And there are tons of threads on this topic as well and most of them are better than this one in that at least the offer a suggestion, not a simple complaint. Edit: Oh, and sometimes we get people saying the mini game will give you more ore or more ice....great. Lets reduce the price of ore and ice. Those who play the mini-game get more stuff--supply increases at all price levels, i.e., an outward shift in supply. Demand has not changed, so prices have to go down. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2844	Posted - 2015.12.27 02:46:55 - [40] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: As for ISK, 20-30/hour...is that million? No. **** no. Tell you what, how about we keep the bounties exactly the same, but you can have NS level rats blapping away at you guys. That should get you HS miners to HTFU enough to actually put some tank on your mining ships. As a reward, if you do happen to get an officer/faction spawn and the loot fairy is nice, meh, I'm fine with that as it wont add ISK to the game. Sure, as long as we change all null bounties to the same 10k isk also. I mean you obviously do it for the fun not the 40-50 mil income you can turn belt ratting in Null with your attitude. Really, with that one line you've shown exactly what you are on about, cheers.
Maria Dragoon Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2015.12.27 02:52:38 - [41] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Maria Dragoon wrote: So you end up with afk mining because to be honest. Fly to point A: Aim at rock, then shoot doesn't exactly create exciting game play. This also in turn results in people selling the minerals at poor prices because they simply don't value their time. Its because its low maintainance game play, but thats how many people like it. Some people mine with several accounts at once, others like to kick back and mine whilst doing chores around the house or chatting with friends over TS. Minerals are cheap because its cheap and easy to mine, everyone can do it, and minerals have other sources like mission loot to push down the prices. Even if they did value their time, theres always plenty of people who've had an MTU do the work for them and had to merely press a button to get minerals. Low maintenance? According to whom terms? Whom's definition? Is it because from day one you can jump into a ship and start doing it? Well you can do that for well... Missioning, and pvp. Anyone from day one has the skills do do missioning and pvp. Does that means they are low maintenance as well? I just don't see how mining requires any less maintenance then say, AFK missioning with drones. There still the risk that you will los... Oh, I get it now. You mean not very involving! That I do agree with you. there not much more involvement with mining outside of target rock, turn on strip miners/mining guns/ice mining wait for rock to vanish/wait for fleet commander to yell at you about something along the lines of "Turn off miners, switch to the rock next to it so you don't pop the rock" As for mission loot and the act of recycling to get mineral goo from the loot. Well to be honest with you, I don't for see that being practical for much longer because of the whole tiericide thing going on.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 42347	Posted - 2015.12.27 03:01:06 - [42] - Quote Thorn Davidus wrote: Primary bumping and secondary bumping are different things....primary bumping which is something being done to ships to get them into a kill zone should be hostile (obviously) while a secondary bump (i.e. into a friendly) can be easily distinguished. Not really an issue, just takes an ounce of thought. Thorn How does a computer program have an ounce of thought? Sounds flippant, but it's not. When you seriously think about all of the possible accidental and deliberate bumping situations how does a program decide that one bump is hostile while another isn't. If, for example I park a ship close to a gate so that any freighter warping to that fate from another one will have to bump me in order to jump, how does the program decide the intent of either player, which don't exist as game objects? This is a discussion that has been had many, many times and it only takes an ounce of thought to realise how difficult an issue it really is. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3846	Posted - 2015.12.27 03:47:47 - [43] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: No, AFK mining is a thing because mining is so God awful boring. Trust me, people manage to semi-AFK mine in NS too. If you want to buff the rats, IDC, really. Just don't buff the rat bounty. 1 trillion ISK entering the game economy every day is more than enough. I personally don't actually care if rats have any bounty at all anywhere in space. My concern is that mining, while generally considered a PVE activity actually involves almost zero environmental danger. The mining activity itself is completely safe and has no chance of failing and the NPCs involved do single digit DPS. It's because it's such a low-risk, uneventful activity that people are able to do it AFK at all. If you want to discourage people from mining AFK, the way to do it is to have events happen (such as legitimately dangerous rats spawning) that require them to respond. If you want to encourage people to be more actively involved then you should probably improve the profitability of mining as part of a group operation in a way that requires frequent interaction, versus sitting all by your lonesome in a belt until your massive ore bay is full then dropping it off and repeating. If you want the maximum effect do both. If AFK mining to be the optimal way to mine then just leave everything as it is.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4224	Posted - 2015.12.27 04:13:16 - [44] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: No, AFK mining is a thing because mining is so God awful boring. Trust me, people manage to semi-AFK mine in NS too. If you want to buff the rats, IDC, really. Just don't buff the rat bounty. 1 trillion ISK entering the game economy every day is more than enough. I personally don't actually care if rats have any bounty at all anywhere in space. My concern is that mining, while generally considered a PVE activity actually involves almost zero environmental danger. The mining activity itself is completely safe and has no chance of failing and the NPCs involved do single digit DPS. It's because it's such a low-risk, uneventful activity that people are able to do it AFK at all. If you want to discourage people from mining AFK, the way to do it is to have events happen (such as legitimately dangerous rats spawning) that require them to respond. If you want to encourage people to be more actively involved then you should probably improve the profitability of mining as part of a group operation in a way that requires frequent interaction, versus sitting all by your lonesome in a belt until your massive ore bay is full then dropping it off and repeating. If you want the maximum effect do both. If AFK mining to be the optimal way to mine then just leave everything as it is. Or CODE. People coming along and ganking them because they are AFK. And increasing mining profitability is easier said than done. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 3846	Posted - 2015.12.27 04:48:01 - [45] - Quote Player created and NPC created threats are entirely separate things. It's not reasonable to base game design around the existence of a single and specific player organization because they aren't a constant factor. In fact the fact that CODE. exists at all is evidence of the game lacking a built in balancing factor to AFK gameplay in highsec. If you read James315's manifesto you'll find that this is the motivation he had for creating the new halaima code of conduct in the first place. And yes, it might be difficult, but you don't not do something that should be done because doing the thing is difficult. You do it because it should be done.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4224	Posted - 2015.12.27 05:08:20 - [46] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Player created and NPC created threats are entirely separate things. It's not reasonable to base game design around the existence of a single and specific player organization because they aren't a constant factor. In fact the fact that CODE. exists at all is evidence of the game lacking a built in balancing factor to AFK gameplay in highsec. If you read James315's manifesto you'll find that this is the motivation he had for creating the new halaima code of conduct in the first place. And yes, it might be difficult, but you don't not do something that should be done because doing the thing is difficult. You do it because it should be done. Who said we need a single player organization. This is a sandbox PvP game. Things should be driven by players as opposed to NPCs. The fact that CODE. exists is an example of what people can do in a sandbox PvP game. Here, let us try a few things to raise mining profits: Fewer asteroid belts. Less ore in each asteroid. No more loot drops. Nerf refining. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 992	Posted - 2015.12.27 08:04:55 - [47] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: ...If you read James315's manifesto you'll...[/i]. ...be brainwashed to believe his nonsense. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 992	Posted - 2015.12.27 08:06:35 - [48] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: ...Here, let us try a few things to raise mining profits: Fewer asteroid belts. Less ore in each asteroid. No more loot drops. Nerf refining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4225	Posted - 2015.12.27 18:27:29 - [49] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: ...Here, let us try a few things to raise mining profits: Fewer asteroid belts. Less ore in each asteroid. No more loot drops. Nerf refining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we. What? Want to make mining more profitable? Limit the supply, price goes up. We could also increase the mineral requirements for modules and ships. Of course, changes to things like refining were done not too long ago along with changing compression (no more making 1,000 T1 rail guns and moving the rails to null and then reprocessing them into minerals). It isn't like these things have been looked at and changed contrary to the OP. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4225	Posted - 2015.12.27 18:44:21 - [50] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: It's not reasonable to base game design around the existence of a single and specific player organization because they aren't a constant factor. The more I think about this the more I find it to be a really horrible point. We have a sandbox MMO, one of the few out there. The basic idea is that there is a relatively short list of rules and other than that it is "do what thou will". Game content is not centered around NPCs like other games that many of us here curl our lips and sneer at. Something like CODE. is a prime example of this. You don't have to love James315 (personally I think he is a self absorbed gas bag who loves the sound of his own voice and it even carries over into his writing). However, I find that CODE. and other ganking organizations fascinating examples of emergent game play. Another example? Guys like Chribba who build up an unblemished reputation in game and act as a financial intermediary, the dude is his own House of Rothschild. Coalitions are yet another example. There is very little in the way in game mechanisms to create coalitions, but none-the-less they exist. These coalitions wage all sorts of wars. Economic wars (the ice interdiction, burn Jita/Amarr, wars against their neighbors, even cold wars). I was not at all surprised when OTEC formed a few years ago either, yet for it to happen in a game was kind of interesting. Not to mention spying. And when looking at the last one I was a fairly new member of the GBC when the Mittani and Goonswarm brought BoB to its knees and killed them (for awhile). I was in lots of fleets doing all kinds of stuff during that time. And so what that player organizations are not a constant factor. That means the game can change and can be interesting. When I first started ganking was very different. Guys in T1 battleships and it was very, very rarely done just because. Now it has changed and you can't just ensure your safety by keeping the cargo value low and setting your autopilot and going to do the dishes. There is lots of game content driven by players, big and small. To imply that game design should not be based around player driven content makes me wonder...do you and I even play the same game? Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 992	Posted - 2015.12.27 19:31:08 - [51] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: ...When I first started ganking was very different. Guys in T1 battleships and it was very, very rarely done just because. Now it has changed and you can't just ensure your safety by keeping the cargo value low and setting your autopilot and going to do the dishes... Good times back in the day. This "new age" yolo-swag poop that is going on these days is a result of people having too much isk on their hands. Remember a Raven did cost 108 million isk and getting 100 million isk was a big deal and I am talking a naked ship without any modules on. Today everyone is always in dire need of 50+ƒ2384+ƒ978527580132653796 carriers for moving from Tenal to Delve in 20 seconds and doing 3490529758056086103650245601 anomalies at the same time with impunity. How dare scary w-space people come and interrupt farmille-online-sec? I said it once in a questionare about the "economy" which I don't give a damn about, clear all wallets to zero, remove incursions and yolo-sawg faction warfare payouts and gate all farmville-sec anomalies with gates that only allow cruisers. "Economy" and EVE fixed. Screw miners! A monkey can mine and the IS-boxing trolls in farmville-sec, highsec and lowsec can too. The recent increase of farmville-ore makes me sick. Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike. We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4226	Posted - 2015.12.27 19:52:07 - [52] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: As for ISK, 20-30/hour...is that million? No. **** no. Tell you what, how about we keep the bounties exactly the same, but you can have NS level rats blapping away at you guys. That should get you HS miners to HTFU enough to actually put some tank on your mining ships. As a reward, if you do happen to get an officer/faction spawn and the loot fairy is nice, meh, I'm fine with that as it wont add ISK to the game. Sure, as long as we change all null bounties to the same 10k isk also. I mean you obviously do it for the fun not the 40-50 mil income you can turn belt ratting in Null with your attitude. Really, with that one line you've shown exactly what you are on about, cheers. The idea is that in NS you get bigger bounties for bigger rats and increased risks/issues. For example, nobody in HS gives a crap if a guy is cloaked in a system all day. People do care in NS. You have to take extra effort to either determine if he is AFK and/or rat with a group of people. Then there are roaming gangs and players who are almost universally hostile. Does a HS mission runner dock up every time some guy enters system? No. Plus we also have to periodically go out and, you know, defend our systems. And we don't have the luxury of having major trade hubs right next door where we can autopilot there and autopilot back. And no, we don't rat for fun. We rat for the ISK and/or help pump up defense indices. Ratting in general sucks. It is predictable and boring. You also seem to have completely missed the point. We do NOT need another isk source in the game. To be quite honest, I'd love to get rid of anomalies in NS and replace them with missions, even in sov null with LP payouts being the dominant reward. That would curtail the inflow of ISK into the economy and increase an existing ISK sink. There is another benefit as well, with missions and agents, they would scale with the system population. The need for "sprawl" in NS would be greatly reduced--i.e. you would not need to hold 50 systems to get 5 really good systems, 10 decent systems, and 10 more average systems with the rest being kind of crap for 2,500 players. Now a system with a good agent could support dozens if not a hundred players/pilots. And if existing NS empires reduced their sprawl even more there could be even more room in NS for additional entities. Plus, you'd have more people out in space and even moving between systems. So, your posts indicate a level of both ignorance of the game economy and a level of entitlement. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
ISD Decoy ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1525	Posted - 2015.12.27 22:15:31 - [53] - Quote I think this thread has run its course. Quote: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Decoy Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

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