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Rolly Polly
20th Legion
   |
Posted - 2007.01.20 23:50:00 -
[61]
True, this is a variation of the old, Hi I'm (CEO'S) Alt can I borrow a few million for a few (expensive item<s>) I'll pay you back when I log in (ceo)
The impersonation people on forum rule applies if somebody named R0lly (with a zero) started posting as me and maybe used a copy of my sig(inbetween atm)
I've never seen such rules ingame, mostly becasue we have the tools to check a players corp and date of creation etc ingame and can look after our own money. New players not so much,
Sucks to lose that much money, Here I was going to write that it would be worsw if you had worked ingame for it but and lost it but for all I know your job is worse than mine and I should jsut keep my mouth shut. If you have enough left to viabley start trading then it might not be so hard to rebuild.
Let the lesson be learned and thought to all that follow, other people want your stuff and it's a poor idea to give it to them. |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.01.21 00:51:00 -
[62]
Every day there is a post on these forums that offends my logic. 
All you people riding this person for buying isk need to back the truck up!
1) CCP apparently condones it. So if you got a problem with it, direct it at the company running the game you're playing and give this person a break.
2) With that in mind, how the person got the isk doesn't really matter. If they had lucked into some T2 bpo in their first month of play or if they bought it via GTCs should make no difference in your judgement of the situation. You're letting your emotions overide your logic.
3) So the situation really comes down to the person playing with their money without really knowing the full situation. Happens every day in Vegas. /shrug
Welcome to EVE. And thank you for sharing your experience with us. Hopefully it will make someone else more careful.
-------------------
... [OK] ...
zOMG! |
Zhecao Vai
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 00:56:00 -
[63]
I agree. The OP may be a whiny annoying fellow but if you have a problem with buying ISK that's your problem, not his. CCP provides the service explicitly and it's perfectly kosher in the eyes of most.
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.21 01:29:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Sohili
THe CCP transactions are all there for the Gametime cards, which is sanctioned by CCP. I broke no rules, I follwed every step of their policies. I did NOT cheat, I did NOT break any rules. What *I* did was not wrong. By any definition of the word.
I would just like to point out that it's perfectly possible to lose 800 million ISK by mistake in a very short amount of time in lots of ways in EVE, or to have it taken from you. As mentioned above, your POS could be shot up. Or you could have flown an 800m ship into PvP. Or you might have misclicked in Empire and got blown away by CONCORD, or suicide ganked, etc. It happens to people every day.
EVE is like poker in some ways: bringing more money to the table without experience just enables you to lose more spectacularly.
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Jamikest
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.01.21 03:15:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
I agree. The OP may be a whiny annoying fellow but if you have a problem with buying ISK that's your problem, not his. CCP provides the service explicitly and it's perfectly kosher in the eyes of most.
Funny, I had the impression *most* felt the opposite of what you just posted.
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Jennai
Leonard J. Crabs Legal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.01.21 05:34:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Apocryphai
And hence my extreme distaste for RMT.
I've been a vocal opponent of RMT ever since I've been playing MMORPGs, not least with EVE. I've been shouted down on these forums over and over and over again with people defending and justifying RMT for a whole range of spurious reasons.
If this kind of thing finally made CCP realise the folly of RMT and how it can destroy a game then yeah, too right I'd be glad.
RMT has NO place in a game like EVE, it cheapens it, it devalues the game and the acheivments of those who've played it for years. It turns it into a petty copy of a CCG game where the richest person in Real-Life buys the most toys in-game.
I hope every person who pays their way in EVE with GTC's gets scammed.
I wonder how much RMT goes through timecards compared to the macro miners that keep spamming me with poorly formatted mails advertising their website?
if they didn't allow GTC selling then nothing would change because no one ever enforces their no-ebay policy, and instead of this thread being a debate on the ethics of isk-buying, it'd be "how did a month old character get 800m to invest?"
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DirtyHarry
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.21 07:43:00 -
[67]
Buying GTC's to sell for isk and then getting scammed out of it all, karma if I ever saw it. GTC's for isk may be legal by CCP but the majority of older players see it as cheating and you will receive no sympathy.
Havocide - DirtyHarryF-E Homepage F-E Killboard |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2007.01.21 09:19:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Genericforumalt
As somebody who thinks GTC sellers/buyers are the scum of the earth, this topic fills me with glee.
Heavily agreed.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Thaneal Swiftbird
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Posted - 2007.01.21 09:31:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Since the matter won't fade away.
The way you got the isk is legal ingame.
CCP Supports scams ingame.
You were scammed ingame.
In RL or ingame you have no leg, arm, elbow, nor knee to stand on.
Now pick one of the following:
A) learn from it, brush yourself down and carry on. (I'd say pick a diffrent corp)
B) return the favor to some other player(s).
C) Accept your loss, Remove Eve from your HDD, Quit.
Sorry if this may burst some bubbles...
I do not know what the legal situation is like outside of Austria or Germany. But around here, you can NOT outrule legal restrictions by any means available to a company. A good example are those "you have to pay us, but we do not admit we have to deliver anything for it" sentences MMOG companies seem to like so much. Even if you acknowlegde them on sign-up, they never become a valid part of your contract with that company. Because they violate existing law. We (at least Germans and Austrians) can say "yes, I accept" and still it is invalid, the law even overrules our personal decisions.
Heck we even have a law that invalidates just anything that is "against good morals" in a contract. Guess what a jugde can do with that one. 
To keep this short... We have a law here, that deals with fraud on a very open basis. The only thing you need to qualify for fraud is, there has to bee a "real" loss (e.g. money) and there has to be a person who basically told you lies, or kept back the truth, or set up a situation where you would assume something that was not true, to trick you out of your money. The fraud paragraph does not contain any further restrictions.
CCP can allow scamming all they want. If a german jugde finds that what has been done was fraud, they either change their rules and hand out the scammers head on a silver talblet, or get their servers closed.
With best regards
Thaneal Swiftbird
|
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 09:34:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Since the matter won't fade away.
The way you got the isk is legal ingame.
CCP Supports scams ingame.
You were scammed ingame.
In RL or ingame you have no leg, arm, elbow, nor knee to stand on.
Now pick one of the following:
A) learn from it, brush yourself down and carry on. (I'd say pick a diffrent corp)
B) return the favor to some other player(s).
C) Accept your loss, Remove Eve from your HDD, Quit.
Sorry if this may burst some bubbles...
I do not know what the legal situation is like outside of Austria or Germany. But around here, you can NOT outrule legal restrictions by any means available to a company. A good example are those "you have to pay us, but we do not admit we have to deliver anything for it" sentences MMOG companies seem to like so much. Even if you acknowlegde them on sign-up, they never become a valid part of your contract with that company. Because they violate existing law. We (at least Germans and Austrians) can say "yes, I accept" and still it is invalid, the law even overrules our personal decisions.
Heck we even have a law that invalidates just anything that is "against good morals" in a contract. Guess what a jugde can do with that one.
To keep this short... We have a law here, that deals with fraud on a very open basis. The only thing you need to qualify for fraud is, there has to bee a "real" loss (e.g. money) and there has to be a person who basically told you lies, or kept back the truth, or set up a situation where you would assume something that was not true, to trick you out of your money. The fraud paragraph does not contain any further restrictions.
CCP can allow scamming all they want. If a german jugde finds that what has been done was fraud, they either change their rules and hand out the scammers head on a silver talblet, or get their servers closed.
With best regards
Thaneal Swiftbird
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!
No no, wait, I'm gonna give a proper response but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh man, sorry, that's too funny.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 09:39:00 -
[71]
Ok ok, I managed to stop laughing.
It's not illegal to lose ingame money. ISK belongs to CCP, they can choose what happens to it.
If you paid real money for that ISK that's beside the point. Once you converted your cash into ISK like a noob you relinquish all legal rights over it. ISK isn't your property to lose, you're just 'renting' it from CCP.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Thaneal Swiftbird
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 09:39:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!
No no, wait, I'm gonna give a proper response but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh man, sorry, that's too funny.
I am sure you will not be so cruel as to not share the fun with us?
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Thaneal Swiftbird
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Posted - 2007.01.21 09:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok ok, I managed to stop laughing.
It's not illegal to lose ingame money. ISK belongs to CCP, they can choose what happens to it.
If you paid real money for that ISK that's beside the point. Once you converted your cash into ISK like a noob you relinquish all legal rights over it. ISK isn't your property to lose, you're just 'renting' it from CCP.
lol, that one is really good. Thanks for sharing.
So basically... the jetons (sorry, I can only hope the word is the same in english, I mean them chips you get) you get to play in a casino also stay property of the casino. At least in the european casinos I visited. You are not allow to take them out with you. You change your money into jetons, go play, loose some, win some, and then hopefully cash in before you go.
According to your logic, if the casino said "we do not care if someone steals all your gambling money you transferred into our jetons" everyone would be free to rob, scam and steal there? Simply said that is not true.
Any arguments that hold for longer then 20seconds in sunlight?
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 09:49:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ok ok, I managed to stop laughing.
It's not illegal to lose ingame money. ISK belongs to CCP, they can choose what happens to it.
If you paid real money for that ISK that's beside the point. Once you converted your cash into ISK like a noob you relinquish all legal rights over it. ISK isn't your property to lose, you're just 'renting' it from CCP.
lol, that one is really good. Thanks for sharing.
So basically... the jetons (sorry, I can only hope the word is the same in english, I mean them chips you get) you get to play in a casino also stay property of the casino. At least in the european casinos I visited. You are not allow to take them out with you. You change your money into jetons, go play, loose some, win some, and then hopefully cash in before you go.
According to your logic, if the casino said "we do not care if someone steals all your gambling money you transferred into our jetons" everyone would be free to rob, scam and steal there? Simply said that is not true.
Any arguments that hold for longer then 20seconds in sunlight?
Yes, ISK cannot legally be converted into real cash. You can convert cash into ISK but not the other way around. ISK is valueless, it is worth nothing (legally).
Your analogy doesn't hold.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Thaneal Swiftbird
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 09:57:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Yes, ISK cannot legally be converted into real cash. You can convert cash into ISK but not the other way around. ISK is valueless, it is worth nothing (legally).
Your analogy doesn't hold.
Anything you can legally buy has a value. Yes, you may change back jetons and you may not change back GTC¦s (Even though I would have to ask a friend, if that part of CCP¦s rules would hold on court. After all they are sold and not licensed afaik). But heck, jetons are made of plastic, ISK are made of bits and bytes. That is what analogies are all about. You take something SIMILAR to try to explain what you mean. Similar, not the same.
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Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 10:02:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
Anything you can legally buy has a value. Yes, you may change back jetons and you may not change back GTC¦s (Even though I would have to ask a friend, if that part of CCP¦s rules would hold on court. After all they are sold and not licensed afaik). But heck, jetons are made of plastic, ISK are made of bits and bytes. That is what analogies are all about. You take something SIMILAR to try to explain what you mean. Similar, not the same.
Ugh NO.
Chips are used to REPRESENT money. ISK is not. It is computer data, it is not an object. It always has belonged to CCP, it says NOWHERE that just because you spent money on it, it BELONGS to you.
Simple enough for you?
Casino chips and ISK are not in the least bit similar. They are two entirely different things.
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Thaneal Swiftbird
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 10:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Ugh NO.
Chips are used to REPRESENT money. ISK is not. It is computer data, it is not an object. It always has belonged to CCP, it says NOWHERE that just because you spent money on it, it BELONGS to you.
Simple enough for you?
Casino chips and ISK are not in the least bit similar. They are two entirely different things.
Hehe, I like when people start to turn in circles and bite their own tail. 
Maybe if you read my posts again, one day ye see what I mean. You could even try to use them as a mantra for meditation. Who knows, maybe they lead you to nirvana?
Anyhow, discussions like this are pointless. I have no need to convince you of anything. Its been fun trying, but in the end... who cares if you belive me?
Too bad I am not buying ISK and that I am not that easy to rip-off. Would have been fun to just go and do a proof of concept.
With best regards
Thaneal Swiftbird
Over and out (meaning I personally end my participation in this thread hereby)
|
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 10:39:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
Hehe, I like when people start to turn in circles and bite their own tail.
Maybe if you read my posts again, one day ye see what I mean. You could even try to use them as a mantra for meditation. Who knows, maybe they lead you to nirvana?
Anyhow, discussions like this are pointless. I have no need to convince you of anything. Its been fun trying, but in the end... who cares if you belive me?
Too bad I am not buying ISK and that I am not that easy to rip-off. Would have been fun to just go and do a proof of concept.
With best regards
Thaneal Swiftbird
Over and out (meaning I personally end my participation in this thread hereby)
Y'know there's no shame in admitting you're wrong. You don't have to go in a huff and pretend you won the argument anyway.
Meh, forums, meet stupid people. Stupid people, meet forums. Nothing new...
___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 11:07:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
According to your logic, if the casino said "we do not care if someone steals all your gambling money you transferred into our jetons" everyone would be free to rob, scam and steal there? Simply said that is not true.
No, but if you lose your chips (jetons) in the course of the game, you have no legal claim over getting them back. You cannot sue someone who outbluffed you at the poker table. It is pointed out in the player guide that scams are part of the game as run by CCP.
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2007.01.21 11:45:00 -
[80]
I feel sorry for you but...
You tried to buy your way into Eve. Yes selling GTC is legal, but its also scummy. Scamming is legal, but its also scummy.
How can you learn the game if you don't struggle for the isk?
Paying RL cash for isk is like paying someone else to exercise for you.
= Proud member of the Carebear Rehabilitation Committee = |
Copine Callmeknau
The Splinter Syndicate
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.21 11:55:00 -
[81]
lol @ ISK buyer getting pwnt
-----
Originally by:
wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
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Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2007.01.21 11:58:00 -
[82]
500M for a carrier bpo can not be !
------
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Masheine
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Posted - 2007.01.21 13:14:00 -
[83]
With these legal arguments about stealing money from people, etc, etc (and, by the way, there's a large body of conversation within the industry that goes on about the potential legal pitfalls of RMT, and everyone is keeping a close eye on Asian countries, where RMT is commonplace and accepted, and courts are having to address some of these issues), one fact which has gone unstated is that YOU CANNOT BUY ISK from CCP or authorized GTC sellers.
You buy game time. You buy the right to play the game for a certain number of days. What you then do with that right is up to you, including transferring it to someone else.
And, as has been mentioned, anything and everything in the game universe is the property of CCP. Players are never in ownership of any valuable property. All you have ever owned is the right to play the game.
This is why transactions that involve real world rights (GTC) and actual real money (account access, character transfers) are protected, and everything virtual is open season.
With that out of the way, how is a "new player", who is aware of the availability of GTC's, is able to figure out how to sell GTC's, presumably making use of the forums in doing so, is aware of the value of BPC sales of big ticket items, and is aware of the benefits of POS research/copying, somehow not aware that scamming is allowed and happens frequently?
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Karodnotos
Caldari
Tides of Silence
Brotherhood Of Steel
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 13:49:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Sohili
THe CCP transactions are all there for the Gametime cards, which is sanctioned by CCP. I broke no rules, I follwed every step of their policies. I did NOT cheat, I did NOT break any rules. What *I* did was not wrong. By any definition of the word.
Staring at a girls boobs while talking to her isnt forbidden, but its pretty lame.
Same goes for GTC trading
___________________
Eve Wiki | dont forget |
Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 19:29:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 21/01/2007 19:29:10
We're kind of getting off-topic here. Could we get back to mocking the angry noob?
Isn't there some kind of legal flap about taxing in-game property nowadays? I imagine it would be possible to launder ill-gotten currency via MMOs, with a little ingenuity.
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Malcanis
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 19:55:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird
Originally by: Gone'Postal
Since the matter won't fade away.
The way you got the isk is legal ingame.
CCP Supports scams ingame.
You were scammed ingame.
In RL or ingame you have no leg, arm, elbow, nor knee to stand on.
Now pick one of the following:
A) learn from it, brush yourself down and carry on. (I'd say pick a diffrent corp)
B) return the favor to some other player(s).
C) Accept your loss, Remove Eve from your HDD, Quit.
Sorry if this may burst some bubbles...
I do not know what the legal situation is like outside of Austria or Germany. But around here, you can NOT outrule legal restrictions by any means available to a company. A good example are those "you have to pay us, but we do not admit we have to deliver anything for it" sentences MMOG companies seem to like so much. Even if you acknowlegde them on sign-up, they never become a valid part of your contract with that company. Because they violate existing law. We (at least Germans and Austrians) can say "yes, I accept" and still it is invalid, the law even overrules our personal decisions.
Heck we even have a law that invalidates just anything that is "against good morals" in a contract. Guess what a jugde can do with that one.
To keep this short... We have a law here, that deals with fraud on a very open basis. The only thing you need to qualify for fraud is, there has to bee a "real" loss (e.g. money) and there has to be a person who basically told you lies, or kept back the truth, or set up a situation where you would assume something that was not true, to trick you out of your money. The fraud paragraph does not contain any further restrictions.
CCP can allow scamming all they want. If a german jugde finds that what has been done was fraud, they either change their rules and hand out the scammers head on a silver talblet, or get their servers closed.
With best regards
Thaneal Swiftbird
If that's true, then you'd better stop playing EVE this instant. If your jusrisdiction allows that you can sue someone for fraud for in-game scamming, then I don't see any barrier to someone else suing you for destroying their ship....
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 20:14:00 -
[87]
It's a crime against natural selection when the witless and cowardly are preserved, and they wily and brave are destroyed. Social Darwinism got nerfed hard in the really real world, but I like the fact that I can go to an imaginary galaxy where people still know the state of nature.
Thomas Hobbes flies a Caldari Titan.
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Malcanis
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 20:24:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
It's a crime against natural selection when the witless and cowardly are preserved, and they wily and brave are destroyed. Social Darwinism got nerfed hard in the really real world, but I like the fact that I can go to an imaginary galaxy where people still know the state of nature.
Thomas Hobbes flies a Caldari Titan.
Shouldn't that be the caldari carrier because they're nasty, brutal and short?
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Fleet Command
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 20:31:00 -
[89]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
seriously would you trust some one in a big animal costume that kind of sounded like your buddy if he asked you for 120 bux , ya thought so this is what you get when you dont earn your way in eve. that and it seems as tho a bit more than a small dose of intelligence would help.
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mafesto
Minmatar
Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 21:40:00 -
[90]
my corpmate made a mistake, he realizes that
what gets me is how approving so many of you are of a new player getting ripped off.....must be the same people who approve of Privateers blowing up noobs in Jita
how it is "good for EVE" to destroy a new players game play I will never understand
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