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Fix the absurd PvE imbalance

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Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.23 05:00:00 - [1] It's just absurd that people with Caldari ship and missile skills can do better in missions than people using Amarr ships and lasers with twice the skill points. The imbalance in mission running ability is striking. I've invested millions of sps in armor tanking and lasers, and I'm seriously considering ditching it all and retraining caldari battleships and missiles just to roll out a generic mission raven. It's completely silly that probably 75-90% of all level 4 missions are done with Ravens. Anytime there's THAT level of stereotyping, there's a balance problem. It's especially crazy because CCP seems violently attuned to imbalance in other areas of gameplay, and yet this has persisted FOR YEARS. Is in intentional? Why? It's hideously stupid design. I realize people disrespect mission runners, who probably only constitute a very large but quiet percentage of the player base. The sex appeal is in alliance politics and 0.0 fleet battles, which are generally mind-boggling boring experiences. But CCP better learn to address the rest of their market.
Frug SYOID Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.23 05:02:00 - [2] I agree, and I fly caldari, but how would you fix it? - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.23 07:52:00 - [3] Which L4 mission are you unable to solo in a pimped out abbandon or apoc?
J Valkor	Posted - 2007.01.23 08:46:00 - [4] Edited by: J Valkor on 23/01/2007 08:43:23 K, then how about you also fix how relatively gimped most Caldari ship are for PvP purposes since we are shield tankers that also happen to use missiles? Also, don't forget how awesome Nighthawks are for PvE :D
Warrio	Posted - 2007.01.23 08:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Warrio on 23/01/2007 08:51:40 I have 12.9 million SP most of which is invested in Amarr ships, lasers and drones. I also currently run missions for a lvl 4 quality 20 agent in all highsec space and am finding that my Abaddon cuts through the missions like a Tachyon II through a tub of butter (which I imagine would be quite fast). Perhaps you are having trouble with your setup or ship choice. If you want me to I'll help out with any questions, feel free to message me in game. Current Setup: Hi: 8 Tachyon (best named, forget the name) Mid: 1 Tracking comp, 3x Cap Recharger Low: 1 LAR, 4 Hardner, 1 Damage Control, 1 CPR If it's a mission against BR or Sansha swap a hardner for a Heat Sink. You can use T1 or T2 but I will warn you that I've only tried with T2 gear so can't gaurantee anything with T1. I'll leave you to work out what rigs, don't want it to be too easy for you. Yes, it is great being Amarr. Lasers look cool, ships are huge and our combat recon makes enemies cry. It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the number of dogs you warp in with.
Suittam Gallente The Drone Shop	Posted - 2007.01.23 09:03:00 - [6] It's an argument that has been raging for as long as missions have been run.... I also have a Caldari character, heavily industrial/research skilled but that can fly a raven with some T2 tank mods, but only standard T1 un-named launchers. He can complete most missions with ease, almost afk. My other character is a about 23 mil sp, specialised gallente PvP, with excellent tanking/drones/engineering/hull skills etc. The missions take at least twice as long and are much more of a challange with him in a Domi/T2 drones. Of the 2, i'd have to say it's much more enjoyable with the Domi, but for ISK and rewards it's the Raven hands down. I agree that dosen't seem right, but given the nature of the way missiles work, i don't see any real way of fixing this short term. I think they tried that once with the original missile nerf, but then gave most of it back with the new missile skill packs that cam out at the same time. While mission runners seem to get a bad press on the forums, i find it quite amusing that most good PvP pilots i have flown with/against in 0.0 corps/alliances almost all seem to have some sort of alt corp/character that mission runs for them to feed their Pvp habit. Mostly in CNR's aswell. I think CCP are probably aware of the impact it would have on its player base (of which mission runners, closet or otherwise make a large proportion of) that large scale changes on the Ravens dominance of missions would have. In conclusion..... Don't watch this space
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.23 09:13:00 - [7] Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 23/01/2007 08:43:23 K, then how about you also fix how relatively gimped most Caldari ship are for PvP purposes since we are shield tankers that also happen to use missiles? Also, don't forget how awesome Nighthawks are for PvE :D The differnce is staggering: currently Caldari have 2 ships models that are essentially build for mission and outperform in PvE by at least 50% (in SP needed and/or efficency) all the other ships in the same class: the Drake and the Raven. This don't make impossible to do missions in different ships, but usually is slower and/or require higher skills and more expensive setups. In PvP the choice of ships for Caldari may be a bit more reduced that Gallente, but I dubt that the 2 best PvP Gallente (or any race) ships have so huge an advantage against alle the other PvP ships setups, by all the races.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.23 10:08:00 - [8] I really don't see what the big problem is. You want to be most efficient at missions, you train Caldari. You want to be most efficient at PvP, you train Gallente. You want something _'different' and don't care too much for efficiency, you train Minmatar or Amarr. And even if you trained up Amarr, nothing is stopping you from training up Caldari too. It is your own choice that limits you if you chose to gimp yourself and spec in one thing and ignore the others. Besides that, there are quite a few missions that can be done quite a bit faster in a turret ship than in a missile one. You just have to use the correct tool for the correct job. I use an Abaddon and a CNR, and I would guess I run about 40% of my missions in the Abaddon because it does better. (That is against Blood/Sansha, but I guess against Guristas/Serp the same can be done with a Mega/Hype/Rokh. Against Angels, well, nothing comes close to the Raven there I guess). So while the Raven and its derivates indeed do better at a majority of missions, it is not nearly as lopsided as the number of people using them makes one believe. The Raven overuse stems mainly from everyone and their dog being Caldari, the Raven being so easy to train for, and from people being lazy in general. Not from it being the best for ALL missions. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Kathira Gallente Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.23 11:22:00 - [9] Back in the past when level 3 missions were the top end of missioning I choosed the greatest underdog of all the BS in that days. Maybe its magic, but today I fly the same ( never lost one ) Dominix for level 4 missions. I will never fly a Raven for effectivness ... . There is no level 4 mission my good old Dom cant handle.
pershphanie Generals Of Destruction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.23 11:58:00 - [10] Edited by: pershphanie on 23/01/2007 11:56:11 Originally by: Leandro Salazar And even if you trained up Amarr, nothing is stopping you from training up Caldari too. It is your own choice that limits you if you chose to gimp yourself and spec in one thing and ignore the others. Really? I spent 3.5 years training amarr and the solution is to just train up caldari? I didnt realize it was that simple. Why didnt i think of that. I'd be fine with race specialization if all the races were better at something. However I've trained all amarr which doesnt seem to be particularly good at anything anymore.
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Warrio Edited by: Warrio on 23/01/2007 08:55:40 I have 12.9 million SP most of which is invested in Amarr ships, lasers and drones. I also currently run missions for a lvl 4 quality 20 agent in all highsec space and am finding that my Abaddon cuts through the missions like a Tachyon II through a tub of butter (which I imagine would be quite fast). Perhaps you are having trouble with your setup or ship choice. If you want me to I'll help out with any questions, feel free to message me in game. Current Setup: Hi: 8 Tachyon (best named, forget the name) Mid: 1 Tracking comp, 3x Cap Recharger Low: 1 LAR, 4 Hardner, 1 Damage Control, 1 CPR If it's a mission against BR or Sansha swap a hardner for a Heat Sink. P.S. You can use T1 or T2 but I will warn you that I've only tried with T2 gear so can't gaurantee anything with T1. P.P.S. A faction hardner would be a treat on this setup, if anyone is selling one please mail me ingame. <3 P.P.P.S. I have Amarr BS 5 which really helps the Abaddons tank and dmg. P.P.P.P.S. I can't use T2 guns and this setup couldn't fit them even if I could. I'll leave you to work out what rigs, don't want it to be too easy for you. Yes, it is great being Amarr. Lasers look cool, ships are huge and our combat recon makes enemies cry. You do realize there are Caldari-spec characters using the exact same agents doing the exact same missions, but with generic Ravens costing 1/4 of your setup and with 1/2 the SPs, just as easily, if not more so? Basically, you just proved my point. Thanks.
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:01:00 - [12] Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 23/01/2007 08:43:23 K, then how about you also fix how relatively gimped most Caldari ship are for PvP purposes since we are shield tankers that also happen to use missiles? Also, don't forget how awesome Nighthawks are for PvE :D Find a FC who knows how to employ missile Ravens in pvp, where they can do just fine.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Tunajuice Which L4 mission are you unable to solo in a pimped out abbandon or apoc? Pimped out being the operative word. Regardless of how pimped they are, raven still beats them speed wise. No range worries or transversal.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:50:00 - [14] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/01/2007 12:46:28 Originally by: Smoking Mirror You do realize there are Caldari-spec characters using the exact same agents doing the exact same missions, but with generic Ravens costing 1/4 of your setup and with 1/2 the SPs, just as easily, if not more so? Basically, you just proved my point. Thanks. Actually even an unpimped Abaddon will probably beat a generic cruise Raven at many missions. Are you guys doing Caldari/Minmatar/Gallente missions with lasers or something? Then THAT is your problem. Try missioning down south against Blood/Sansha. Those and rogue drones are killed faster by lasers than by anything else, and considering the base resistances your T2 armortank will be almost as good as a pimped Raven's Gist shieldtank. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I really don't see what the big problem is. You want to be most efficient at missions, you train Caldari. You want to be most efficient at PvP, you train Gallente. You want something _'different' and don't care too much for efficiency, you train Minmatar or Amarr. And even if you trained up Amarr, nothing is stopping you from training up Caldari too. It is your own choice that limits you if you chose to gimp yourself and spec in one thing and ignore the others. Besides that, there are quite a few missions that can be done quite a bit faster in a turret ship than in a missile one. You just have to use the correct tool for the correct job. I use an Abaddon and a CNR, and I would guess I run about 40% of my missions in the Abaddon because it does better. (That is against Blood/Sansha, but I guess against Guristas/Serp the same can be done with a Mega/Hype/Rokh. Against Angels, well, nothing comes close to the Raven there I guess). So while the Raven and its derivates indeed do better at a majority of missions, it is not nearly as lopsided as the number of people using them makes one believe. The Raven overuse stems mainly from everyone and their dog being Caldari, the Raven being so easy to train for, and from people being lazy in general. Not from it being the best for ALL missions. And we have a winner. Now I`m gonna go shooting myself in the foot by starting a thread about how useless caldari is for everythign but PvE!
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:08:00 - [16] did i hear that caldari are useless for pvp? share with me some of thats stuff you're smoking!
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Nahia Senne did i hear that caldari are useless for pvp? share with me some of thats stuff you're smoking! You clearly got the point!
mrhateboy Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:38:00 - [18] A little bird landed on my shoulder and told me something that might explain this whole debacle. He told me: "The whole point of having different races is variety, not for them to be the same." --H8
Marquis Dean Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:43:00 - [19] If you want all races and all ships to be capable of doing all things, then what the hell, let's just dispense with the 4 different races entirely, and all the different ship classes that give this game it's fantastic variety and flavour, and;et all just hop in one generic ship. Transforming Eve into Space Invaders. How about, instead of whining, you try to adapt. I am a Caldari char, but I run my Lvl4s in an Apoc, because it's far more fun than just spamming missiles everywhere. Eve is a game, not a nuclear power plant. It's not about efficiency, it's about fun. And try this: go to a Lvl4 mission hub and see what everyone flies. There are Ravens. But there are just as many Dominix's, Megathrons, Hyperions, Apocalypses, Abaddons, Rokhs, Ishtars, Zealots, Astartes and Eos. ------ ------ Originally by: Crag Heyder I'm not talking FPS here, it's SPF.
mrhateboy Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Marquis Dean If you want all races and all ships to be capable of doing all things, then what the hell, let's just dispense with the 4 different races entirely, and all the different ship classes that give this game it's fantastic variety and flavour, and;et all just hop in one generic ship. Transforming Eve into Space Invaders. How about, instead of whining, you try to adapt. I am a Caldari char, but I run my Lvl4s in an Apoc, because it's far more fun than just spamming missiles everywhere. Eve is a game, not a nuclear power plant. It's not about efficiency, it's about fun. And try this: go to a Lvl4 mission hub and see what everyone flies. There are Ravens. But there are just as many Dominix's, Megathrons, Hyperions, Apocalypses, Abaddons, Rokhs, Ishtars, Zealots, Astartes and Eos. Lots of pests too! --H8
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.23 14:00:00 - [21] I'm fine with SOME variation. I'm not fine with lopsidedly imbalanced game play. And where exactly do Amarr characters make up the imbalance in mission running? PvP fleet battles? The Rokh is pretty pwny and a squad of Ravens with sensor damps and big old missiles do damn well in the hands of people who know what they're doing. Yes, obviously the Amarr have that innate sexual charisma soul-less Caldari technocrats lack, but I mean besides that.
DEFF DSP	Posted - 2007.01.23 14:13:00 - [22] Edited by: DEFF DSP on 23/01/2007 14:11:12 Originally by: Nahia Senne did i hear that caldari are useless for pvp? share with me some of thats stuff you're smoking! caldari are useless for solo (1:1) pvp except ecm ships Originally by: Marquis Dean It's not about efficiency, it's about fun. more efficient u are - more fun :P
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.23 14:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Smoking Mirror I'm fine with SOME variation. I'm not fine with lopsidedly imbalanced game play. And where exactly do Amarr characters make up the imbalance in mission running? PvP fleet battles? The Rokh is pretty pwny and a squad of Ravens with sensor damps and big old missiles do damn well in the hands of people who know what they're doing. Yes, obviously the Amarr have that innate sexual charisma soul-less Caldari technocrats lack, but I mean besides that. Just that there IS no lopsided imbalanced gameplay here. As I already said, Amarr ships work fine to great in missions against the correct NPCs. So go run for the right corps if you absolutely have to use Amarr ships. Besides, as many a PvPer will tell you, EVE is not balanced for PvE in the first place. So even if the Raven was as superior in missions as you want people to believe, it would not be an issue. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
DOARota Gallente Drones of Annihilation Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.23 15:22:00 - [24] Repair defender missiles, nuff said.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.23 15:31:00 - [25] Originally by: DEFF DSP caldari are useless for solo (1:1) pvp except ecm ships You sir, have no clue. I'd debate the issue but this is the missions section.
pershphanie Generals Of Destruction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:17:00 - [26] Edited by: pershphanie on 23/01/2007 19:15:50 Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 23/01/2007 08:43:23 K, then how about you also fix how relatively gimped most Caldari ship are for PvP purposes since we are shield tankers that also happen to use missiles? Hi Rokh, Scorp, Rook, crow, eagle, flycatcher. All great pvp ships. At least as good as both amarr and galante. I'm fine with certain races being slightly better than others at certain things. But when i have a character that has training amarr since day 1 of eve and a 6 month old character in a t1 fitted drake can make twice as much money npcing then I can in a T2/faction fitted Abadon then there's something wrong with that. Also shield tankers are not useless at all in pvp. infact quite the opposite. LSE tanks seem to rule all in tanking atm. Just try tanking any pvp situation with an armor rep and then tell me shield tanking sucks for pvp Yes, ravens suck for most pvp. I'm sorry if your raven isnt an i win button for every single aspect of the game. However it is an i win button for most.
000Hunter000 Gallente Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:39:00 - [27] I can do L4's in my NH with 1 hand tied behind my back and still beat them with ease. why? Not because of the caldari ship but because i invested tons of SP's in the weaponry and other asorted skills and learned how the missions work so i could fly it good and .THATS the reason i breeze through L4's like they were a walk in the park. Oh and if u think everyone flies ravens? goto Aunia and check out how many domi's and throns exit station. Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.23 22:03:00 - [28] Caldari = Great at PvE, not great at PvP. What is the big problem? Gallente seem pretty damn good to me as a Caldari, lots of Caldari pilots I know train up another race so they can PvP worth a darn. In most games you have to train one way to PvE and another way to PvP. Heck, in WOW you basically had to respec almost every class in order to be the most effective PvE'er possible or PvP'er possible. At least in EVE you can be very effective at both at the same time once you train em up. You arn't forced to stay with one race in EVE so it doesn't matter if one race has balance issues in particular areas... since anyone can train for them. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Strel Samodelkin Caldari Nationalist Party	Posted - 2007.01.24 00:16:00 - [29] I fly a Raven and there are many missions I simply can't solo at all.
Nikla Uthaan Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.24 00:56:00 - [30] Originally by: Shadarle Caldari = Great at PvE, not great at PvP. What is the big problem? Gallente seem pretty damn good to me as a Caldari, lots of Caldari pilots I know train up another race so they can PvP worth a darn. QFT. I think if i went through all my killmails the only caldari ships in them are intie tacklers. Want to drop Caldari PVE? Boost their PVP. ----------------- One word,, emo,,, The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam.

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