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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 02:48:43 -
[1] - Quote
I think that allowing each player to print ISK by killing useless NPCs and forcing every player to accept the ISK has bad aspects, like inflation.
For example, a corporation of miners can mine for 1 hour and produce a lot of resources. They put their resources for sale at 1 billion isk. Another corporation is made up of NPC killers, they go out for 1 hour, kill NPCs and get 1 billion isk in bounties. Killing NPCs is not useful work right now. Killing them doesn't change anything in the game. Can we equate 1 billion isk made from killing NPCs to 1 hour of mining? I don't think so. The miners worked hard and produced resources. The NPC killers worked hard and produced nothing, and with that nothing they can buy all the resources from the miners.
So let the empires issue their own currency, backed by resources. In my opinion it would allow for a more fair exchange of goods and services.
For example, player A puts a Kestrel for sale asking for 100,000 caldari credits. Player B wants the Kestrel, but he cannot buy it with ISK, he must obtain caldari credits first. Player B must deliver tritanium to a caldari bank (because the caldari credits are backed by tritanium), either directly or indirectly. So he delivers 100,000 tritanium to a caldari bank and gets 100,000 caldari credits in return. Then he buys the Kestrel and player A receives 100,000 caldari credits. Player A can now go to a caldari bank and get 100,000 tritanium. Both players exchanged useful goods, without meeting eachother and without using contracts. Of course this example is silly, but it's just to illustrate one possible way of how it may work.
Maybe we can expand currency creation to alliances too?
What are your opinions? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
43356
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 03:20:16 -
[2] - Quote
From what I understand of the inflation graphs that will become part of the monthly economic report, inflation isn't really an issue in New Eden:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/economy.indices_4.png
There are some isolated items like PLEX for example, but overall the issue of inflation hasn't been a problem.
I'm just a layman, so I might be reading that wrong.
If this is more an issue of equity between what can be earned in different professions, well we all have choices. We can always change what we do in game if we aren't happy.
I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different currencies.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2497
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 03:26:49 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:From what I understand of the inflation graphs that will become part of the monthly economic report, inflation isn't really an issue in New Eden: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/economy.indices_4.png There are some isolated items like PLEX for example, but overall the issue of inflation hasn't been a problem. I'm just a layman, so I might be reading that wrong. If this is more an issue of equity between what can be earned in different professions, well we all have choices. We can always change what we do in game if we aren't happy. I don't really see much value in splitting currency into 4 different currencies.
There is no reason to implement 4 currency since for simplicity sake, people will all flood to one of them because **** having to deal with money exchanges. Chance are we would all flock to caldari money because "Jita". |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 03:38:10 -
[4] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies.
I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2499
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 04:04:39 -
[5] - Quote
GTN wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies. I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation.
If ISKs stays, then everybody will keep using the "standard" currency and your 4 newly created currency will happen to be nothing but newbie traps. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:14:33 -
[6] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:GTN wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies. I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation. If ISKs stays, then everybody will keep using the "standard" currency and your 4 newly created currency will happen to be nothing but newbie traps.
Once CCP announces the new currencies, a lot of people will start to convert their ISK into resources. The price of goods will skyrocket.The inflation that you don't see because people are hoarding ISK, will suddenly appear. ISK may die very quickly. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2894
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 04:15:24 -
[7] - Quote
GTN wrote: I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation.
Step one to a good suggestion. Establish the 'problem' you are trying to fix actually exists in the first place. Step two. Learn the standard solutions to said problem.
In this case there is no problem, isk is actually a very stable currency. Therefore nothing needs to be done. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1536
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 04:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:30:47 -
[9] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution.
There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2894
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 04:48:43 -
[10] - Quote
GTN wrote: There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources.
So you mean you want miners to have a fixed income since they can never charge more for their product to reflect the difficulties in getting it to a particular location? |
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 05:41:32 -
[11] - Quote
GTN wrote:[quote=Frostys Virpio]The inflation that you don't see because people are hoarding ISK, will suddenly appear. ISK may die very quickly. Hoarding ISK isn't an issue as you said yourself, players can print their own ISK.
Oh god.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 05:42:51 -
[12] - Quote
GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. Then resources need to become limited and you'll be here whining that there is nothing left to mine and everyone is hoarding ISK and resources (Which isn't a problem now, but will be if your idea happens).
Oh god.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4363
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Posted - 2016.01.15 06:40:35 -
[13] - Quote
GTN wrote:I think that allowing each player to print ISK by killing useless NPCs and forcing every player to accept the ISK has bad aspects, like inflation.
You don't have to accept ISK...so there is no force involved.
Quote:For example, a corporation of miners can mine for 1 hour and produce a lot of resources. They put their resources for sale at 1 billion isk. Another corporation is made up of NPC killers, they go out for 1 hour, kill NPCs and get 1 billion isk in bounties. Killing NPCs is not useful work right now. Killing them doesn't change anything in the game. Can we equate 1 billion isk made from killing NPCs to 1 hour of mining? I don't think so. The miners worked hard and produced resources. The NPC killers worked hard and produced nothing, and with that nothing they can buy all the resources from the miners.
So let the empires issue their own currency, backed by resources. In my opinion it would allow for a more fair exchange of goods and services.
Well you want some money, and you probably want a steady growth in the money supply as well. If the money supply did not grow at all then you could end up with deflation. And when deflation is simply a monetary phenomenon then you could see the the monetary effects lead to real effects--i.e. miners not mining, people not building, etc. This was one of the problems during the Great Depression when the money supply completely collapsed. People started holding cash so the velocity of money declined. Using the equation of exchange,
MV = PT,
If V goes down then to maintain equality then either M has to go up, but that didn't happen, in fact in the U.S. the Federal Reserve was doing exactly the opposite, they were buying treasuries which meant the M was going down. So the only place for the equality to be restored is on the right hand side, P and/or T h ave to go down. P are prices and yes they went down. T is transactions which represents real activity and that went down too. Alot. So much so unemployment rose to amazingly high levels.
Why would introducing a new currency make things more "fair"? Why not just monitor the growth rate of ISK and make sure that it is not getting out of hand in terms of general prices.
Quote:For example, player A puts a Kestrel for sale asking for 100,000 caldari credits. Player B wants the Kestrel, but he cannot buy it with ISK, he must obtain caldari credits first. Player B must deliver tritanium to a caldari bank (because the caldari credits are backed by tritanium), either directly or indirectly. So he delivers 100,000 tritanium to a caldari bank and gets 100,000 caldari credits in return. Then he buys the Kestrel and player A receives 100,000 caldari credits. Player A can now go to a caldari bank and get 100,000 tritanium. Both players exchanged useful goods, without meeting eachother and without using contracts. Of course this example is silly, but it's just to illustrate one possible way of how it may work.
You might also want to consider things like Gresham's Law which holds that bad money (i.e. fiat currency, ISK) will drive out good currency (a resource backed currency, Caldari Credits). Again, we saw this with the Great Depression as well, people would horde gold over paper money. This is why Roosevelt issued Executive Order 6102 which made hoarding gold illegal. The idea was to allow the Federal Reserve to expand the money supply which was desperately needed to help turn the economy around.
Quote:Maybe we can expand currency creation to alliances too?
What are your opinions?
No on that last one.
Suppose I do the following:
I create the Teckos, a new in game currency and I'll issue 1 Teckos for 10 units of Tritanium and people go for it. So I have 1 billion units of trit and there are 100 million Teckos out there. I transfer the trit to an alt who sells it since the price of trit has gone up since alot of it instead of going to the market ended up in my hangar. Once the trit is gone, I declare the Bank of Teckos insolvent and all those Teckos' are now not even useful for wallpapering your captain's quarters (because you can't wallpaper your captain's quarters).
Seeing as most people will spot this possibility...nobody is going to exchange trit for a Teckos...so it would likely just end up a waste of Dev time.
And what exactly would this fix? With recent changes to station slots making them unlimited, changes to anchoring POS, and so forth manufacturing and invention have actually gotten cheaper...so any price increases due to the ISK supply growing too much appear to have been largely offset.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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SynthiaGreey
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2016.01.15 08:52:07 -
[14] - Quote
Additional currencies are called Loyalty Points - and are used to obtain faction specific items. What we need is just more of useful items that can be only obtained by loyalty points. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1752
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 13:01:17 -
[15] - Quote
SynthiaGreey wrote:Additional currencies are called Loyalty Points - and are used to obtain faction specific items. What we need is just more of useful items that can be only obtained by loyalty points.
Along with this, it isn't all that difficult to swing LP values all over the place. Right now we have isk, aurum and PLEX and LP that can all be valued against each other. There are players that manipulate the current ones to create wealth. Some folks are really good at it. Adding 4 more currencies will just make that aspect of the game easier (the part where you manipulate one form of currency for profit). At a glance I would immediately look to make minmatar currency total crap, buy it up while it's super cheap and then affect the game to then make it worth a lot while pounding down the gallente currency. Just keep rinsing and repeating.
It would just be another way to create wealth from wealth. I'm all for sandbox play but I'll say this also - Eve is pretty much supposed to be an epic pvp space game. It's kind of hurting in the content area at the moment. There isn't a lot of meaning in most of the combat. The lack of meaning equates (for me) to the games inability to hold on to players over the long term. I see the introduction of 4 more currencies as a way for the folks that have piles of isk/LP/trit and so on to leverage their current vast wealth to create more through manipulation. I don't think that's the point of the game. Sure its a sandbox, but the game is about space fights - it's not about piling isk.
I don't think 4 more currencies will add the kind of game play the game needs. Especially with the current lack of meaning driven content.
TL/DR - adding more complexity to the current isk/PLEX/aurum/LP mix by adding 4 more equivalents won't fix anything and it won't make anything better. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:48:22 -
[16] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: There are players that manipulate the current ones to create wealth. Some folks are really good at it. Adding 4 more currencies will just make that aspect of the game easier (the part where you manipulate one form of currency for profit). At a glance I would immediately look to make minmatar currency total crap, buy it up while it's super cheap and then affect the game to then make it worth a lot while pounding down the gallente currency. Just keep rinsing and repeating.
When a currency is backed by a resource, it takes the intrinsic value of that resource. A currency that is backed by tritanium becomes as difficult to manipulate as tritanium itself. It becomes virtually impossible to manipulate because the supply and demand are both enormous and no single entity has the means of making a dent on it. Right now there are 40.4 billion units of tritanium on sell orders and 84.3 billion units on buy orders. You'd need more than 230 billion isk to buy it all and in a matter of hours the price would go back to where it was. Everyone knows what the right price of tritanium is and if you tried to sell your tritanium for 1 isk more, no one would buy it and you'd waste billions of isk.
Serendipity Lost wrote: TL/DR - adding more complexity to the current isk/PLEX/aurum/LP mix by adding 4 more equivalents won't fix anything and it won't make anything better.
Except that the currencies that you mentioned are not backed by anything, so not really equivalent. Whether it will make it better or not is not important (well, for NPC killers it is I guess), but at least give players the choice. Let players decide what is the best currency for them. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:53:12 -
[17] - Quote
All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:55:48 -
[18] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE
CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:59:27 -
[19] - Quote
GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. Actually adding currencies would give more freedom. I don't see where is the freedom in being forced to use a currency that anyone can print.
Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:05:35 -
[20] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. Actually adding currencies would give more freedom. I don't see where is the freedom in being forced to use a currency that anyone can print. Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits?
Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? |
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:09:13 -
[21] - Quote
GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk?
I'm trying to get you to think through the idea you proposed, you tell me. It wouldn't work for a few very blatant reasons. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:11:35 -
[22] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? I'm trying to get you to think through the idea you proposed, you tell me. It wouldn't work for a few very blatant reasons. Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:14:45 -
[23] - Quote
GTN wrote:Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard.
Walk me through how we would determine that 100,000 trit is worth 100,000 caldari credits.
You never answered my question. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:15:05 -
[24] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? you tell me.
The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:18:10 -
[25] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard. Walk me through how we would determine that 100,000 trit is worth 100,000 caldari credits. You never answered my question.
The exchange rate of tritanium to caldari credit can be determined by the userbase through a voting system. But once set, it's forever. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1540
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:26:50 -
[26] - Quote
GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources.
So instead of "Faction currencies to mitigate inflation" you should have titled this, "Faction currencies because idk it would be cool tho, rite?"
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:30:22 -
[27] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. So instead of "Faction currencies to mitigate inflation" you should have titled this, "Faction currencies because idk it would be cool tho, rite?"
You are right, it would do nothing to stop ISK inflation, but at least it would give players the choice of using a currency that has some value. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:32:10 -
[28] - Quote
GTN wrote:The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk.
Exactly the problem. Now there are four more currencies to manipulate, making market fluctuation swing even wilder than they are now. It would do nothing for inflation, it would only line the pockets of those who care enough to play currency games. If anything, it would make predicting inflation/deflationary trends even more difficult than it is today.
The only feasible way you could use this to control inflation would be to have CCP set limits on the exchange rates, which is not something we want. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:37:10 -
[29] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk. Exactly the problem. Now there are four more currencies to manipulate, making market fluctuation swing even wilder than they are now. It would do nothing for inflation, it would only line the pockets of those who care enough to play currency games. If anything, it would make predicting inflation/deflationary trends even more difficult than it is today. The only feasible way you could use this to control inflation would be to have CCP set limits on the exchange rates, which is not something we want. You say that you don't want CCP to set exchange rates, then complain when players manipulate the market and set their own exchange rates? The irony is strong. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:40:59 -
[30] - Quote
GTN wrote:You say that you don't want CCP to set exchange rates, then complain when players manipulate the market and set their own exchange rates? The irony is strong.
Did you read what I wrote? Players manipulating the market is good for the game. That taken to a ridiculous extreme is not.
"If a little of something is good, it doesn't mean a lot of the same thing is great"
That's the idea behind 'balance' |
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:57:19 -
[31] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:You say that you don't want CCP to set exchange rates, then complain when players manipulate the market and set their own exchange rates? The irony is strong. Did you read what I wrote? Players manipulating the market is good for the game. That taken to a ridiculous extreme is not. "If a little of something is good, it doesn't mean a lot of the same thing is great" That's the idea behind 'balance'
Good luck manipulating tritanium. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4104
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:16:02 -
[32] - Quote
So OP? How would this work for me?
I live in nullsec, and buy stuff with ISK. I don't mine unless I have to, and even then I cherrypick highends, I don't mine for trit.
If I wanted to buy fifty rifters, would I use ISK, or would I have to go through some convoluted method of importing trit to certain stations to convert to new currency to spend on the stuff I want, instead of just buying it? Would I have to keep five separate wallet balances in mind to use the market, or would this, in fact, just add compexity for no reason?
(As an aside, how much do you have invested in bitcoin right now?) |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 20:16:38 -
[33] - Quote
GTN wrote:Good luck manipulating tritanium.
You don't understand how market manipulation works, do you? I didn't read the other responses, but going back and doing that, read what Serendipity Lost said. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 20:35:02 -
[34] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So OP? How would this work for me?
I live in nullsec, and buy stuff with ISK. I don't mine unless I have to, and even then I cherrypick highends, I don't mine for trit.
If I wanted to buy fifty rifters, would I use ISK, or would I have to go through some convoluted method of importing trit to certain stations to convert to new currency to spend on the stuff I want, instead of just buying it? Would I have to keep five separate wallet balances in mind to use the market, or would this, in fact, just add compexity for no reason?
(As an aside, how much do you have invested in bitcoin right now?)
If the person selling the fifty rifters is asking for caldari credits, you can open the eve market, go into the caldari credit / ISK exchange section, buy caldari credits with your ISK, then buy the fifty rifters with caldari credits. If the fifty rifters are for sale for ISK, then just buy them with ISK.
Right now I don't have anything invested in bitcoin because the majority of bitcoin in existence is in the hands of a few people. It's a ponzi scheme. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4104
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:37:47 -
[35] - Quote
So what's the advantage to buying credits, assuming someone is actually selling them in the hypothetical nullsec system we're talking about, instead of just buying the rifters directly?
And as a seller, what would be the advantage in asking for credits over ISK? It's all going to be measured in terms of it's ISK value anyway, surely? |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10286
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:39:43 -
[36] - Quote
GTN wrote: What are your opinions?
My opinion is that we should let videogames be videogames
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 20:43:40 -
[37] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So what's the advantage to buying credits, assuming someone is actually selling them in the hypothetical nullsec system we're talking about, instead of just buying the rifters directly?
And as a seller, what would be the advantage in asking for credits over ISK? It's all going to be measured in terms of it's ISK value anyway, surely?
The beauty of currency is that it's a virtual good, so you can exchange currencies with a person that is on the other side of the universe, without knowing it. If you place a sell order in jita, people in amarr will see it and can buy it.
The difference between ISK and faction credit is that faction credit has a fixed value, it stays the same over time. The value of ISK? What is the value of ISK? You need to check every second, because the next second it may have another value. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 20:50:53 -
[38] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So what's the advantage to buying credits, assuming someone is actually selling them in the hypothetical nullsec system we're talking about, instead of just buying the rifters directly?
And as a seller, what would be the advantage in asking for credits over ISK? It's all going to be measured in terms of it's ISK value anyway, surely?
For example, you sell a supercarrier and obtain 50 billion isk. The next day ISK loses 90% of its value and the same supercarrier is now worth 500 billion isk. You just gave a supercarrier away for free and the ISK that you got is useless. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:57:38 -
[39] - Quote
GTN wrote:The exchange rate of tritanium to caldari credit can be determined by the userbase through a voting system. But once set, it's forever.
I really, really hope you're trolling. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4104
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 20:57:48 -
[40] - Quote
You haven't actually given an advantage, just a situation which will literally never happen. How would ISK lose it's value when there isn't an alternative outside of some weird barter system?
Where is the advantage in forcing me to keep track of no less than five seperate wallets, maintain balances in five seperate currencies, and pay close attention to all the exchange rates and **** instead of just buying and selling what I want in ISK?
Complexity for it's own sake is not a good thing. |
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:09:16 -
[41] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:You haven't actually given an advantage, just a situation which will literally never happen. How would ISK lose it's value when there isn't an alternative outside of some weird barter system?
Where is the advantage in forcing me to keep track of no less than five seperate wallets, maintain balances in five seperate currencies, and pay close attention to all the exchange rates and **** instead of just buying and selling what I want in ISK?
Complexity for it's own sake is not a good thing.
It has already happened. For me ISK has no value. I keep all my wealth in tritanium and try to keep my ISK to a minimum. Right now I have 50 million ISK in the wallet. If I need to buy something, I sell some tritanium for ISK and then buy the thing that I want immediately. ISK will lose its value very fast once people realize that it has no value. What is keeping it from dying is the belief of miners that ISK has value. Once miners stop accepting ISK, it's game over. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:17:40 -
[42] - Quote
GTN wrote:It has already happened. For me ISK has no value. I keep all my wealth in tritanium and try to keep my ISK to a minimum. Right now I have 50 million ISK in the wallet. If I need to buy something, I sell some tritanium for ISK and then buy the thing that I want immediately. ISK will lose its value very fast once people realize that it has no value. What is keeping it from dying is the belief of miners that ISK has value. Once miners stop accepting ISK, it's game over.
So either
1. (most likely) you are simply trolling or
2. This has nothing to do with inflation and is just a bizarre way for you to make your insane way of managing wealth easier |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4104
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:19:26 -
[43] - Quote
Surely if you want a place to store your isk, you do it in PLEX, not trit.
I remember when trit was 1.5 ISK/unit. We're more likely to go back to that than whatever you seem to think is going to happen any day now.
People mine to make ISK. They are not likely to suddenly stop accepting ISK for their minerals.
I build ships for sale. I am not going to stop accepting ISK for my ships.
Why do you think people are going to stop using ISK, and what do you think they are going to use instead? |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:22:32 -
[44] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Why do you think people are going to stop using ISK, and what do you think they are going to use instead?
Faction currency, because the value of ISK is zero. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4104
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:26:47 -
[45] - Quote
GTN wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Why do you think people are going to stop using ISK, and what do you think they are going to use instead? Faction currency, because the value of ISK is zero.
There is no faction currency, so this is irrelevant.
If there was one, why would you think this was a good selling point for it?
Wasn't gold backed economics kind of ruined decades ago? |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:26:57 -
[46] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Surely if you want a place to store your isk, you do it in PLEX, not trit. A PLEX is inconvenient when I need to buy small things like a battlecruiser. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:30:07 -
[47] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:GTN wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Why do you think people are going to stop using ISK, and what do you think they are going to use instead? Faction currency, because the value of ISK is zero. There is no faction currency, so this is irrelevant. If there was one, why would you think this was a good selling point for it? Wasn't gold backed economics kind of ruined decades ago? When faction currency is introduced it will become very relevant. Also gold backed economics don't have a fixed exchange ratio, thus there is great risk for inflation, and gold doesn't have much value outside of electronics. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
81
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:30:34 -
[48] - Quote
GTN wrote:Faction currency, because the value of ISK is zero.
Reported for trolling, because I'm not taking your bait and wasting time explaining basic economics to you. |
Takari
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
504
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 21:32:19 -
[49] - Quote
Previous poster correct. Your elaborate troll attempt caught me good. +1 Internets for you and good day.
"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.
Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4382
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 22:13:27 -
[50] - Quote
GTN wrote:
The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk.
For now. But it can and has changed for a variety of reasons, many of them linked to changes to the game fromGǪwaitGǪwaitGǪpatienceGǪCCP. Used to be ISK was worth somewhere between 3-4 ISK. Then drone poo was removed and changes to refine rates for loot dropsGǪviola 6 ISK/unit of tritanium.
So the price is determined by supply and demand, and that CCP does have some not inconsiderable influence over.
And that still does not answer the question of who decides that 1 Caldari Credit is backed by 1 unit of tritanium. Who sets that and what is to prevent them from changing that exchange rate?
And I donGÇÖt believe that nonsense about voting and not changing it. We see that kind of nonsense all the time. However, in economics there is a problem known as time inconsistency and such claims of GÇ£weGÇÖll never touch it ever againGÇ¥ are usually not credible. Could CCP open it up to additional voting? Could CCP change it by simple fiat?
Isaac Armer wrote: Exactly the problem. Now there are four more currencies to manipulate, making market fluctuation swing even wilder than they are now. It would do nothing for inflation, it would only line the pockets of those who care enough to play currency games. If anything, it would make predicting inflation/deflationary trends even more difficult than it is today.
In GTNGÇÖs defense, resource backed currencies are much harder to manipulate. However, GreshamGÇÖs law indicates that people would prefer to hoard such currencies than use them as a medium of exchange precisely because they can be an effective hedge against inflation.
As for the notion of runaway inflation, the rate of ISK growth in the economy has been remarkably stable and CCP watches it and are aware of what could happen if it gets out of hand. So the notion of ISK losing 90% of its purchasing power is just nonsense. Exactly what mechanism would cause this sudden hyper-inflation. Personally, I donGÇÖt see hyper-inflation as merely really high inflation, but a sudden loss in confidence in the monetary authority. They do something to cause that loss of confidence, typically they do something along the lines of monetizing a large debt. However, CCP has no in-game debt to monetize. So exactly tell us how the in game monetary system would fall apart. Is CCP going to suddenly multiply all rat bounties by a factor of 10 or 20? And why would they do that?
Most of the worldGÇÖs currencies are fiat currenciesGÇöi.e. they are IOU nothing types of currency. Are we to believe the OP would use RL currency as toilet paper or burn it.
And ISK has value in game because CCP has set it up as the sole currency in the game. We have no other significant means of exchange. We could all decide to switch to barter, but barter makes exchange much, much harder than using an agreed upon (or in our case, CCP agreed upon) currency. The problem with barter is the dual coincidence of wantGÇöi.e. if I have tritanium, but want mexallon and you have mexallon and want tritanium we can trade, but if you have only isogen, we canGÇÖt trade. So off we go looking for the people who we can trade with. Basically, it adds a substantial transaction cost to trade. We could also decide that weGÇÖll do all exchanges via contract and in terms of tritanium. But sticking with ISK is just easier as the markets are already set up to use it. And most markets in Eve that use ISK are quite liquid meaning there are lots of buyers and sellers so that we can get what we want much easier and sooner.
The guy is coming across as one of those RL kooky gold bugs. My advice, ignore him. Let this thread sink down to the second page and then into oblivion.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 22:20:13 -
[51] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:In GTNGÇÖs defense, resource backed currencies are much harder to manipulate. However, GreshamGÇÖs law indicates that people would prefer to hoard such currencies than use them as a medium of exchange precisely because they can be an effective hedge against inflation.
In the real world, yes, but that isn't as applicable here. Resource based currency is based on a finite supply of that resource existing. In new eden, rocks continually regenerate, and are unlimited in supply. Someone trying to drive the value of silver up by buying it out works because we can't make more silver. Someone hoarding trit won't work because someone can mine more tomorrow.
Geckos as the resource we base it on? Yes. Rocks? No. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4384
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 22:44:29 -
[52] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:In GTNGÇÖs defense, resource backed currencies are much harder to manipulate. However, GreshamGÇÖs law indicates that people would prefer to hoard such currencies than use them as a medium of exchange precisely because they can be an effective hedge against inflation. In the real world, yes, but that isn't as applicable here. Resource based currency is based on a finite supply of that resource existing. In new eden, rocks continually regenerate, and are unlimited in supply. Someone trying to drive the value of silver up by buying it out works because we can't make more silver. Someone hoarding trit won't work because someone can mine more tomorrow. Geckos as the resource we base it on? Yes. Rocks? No.
Actually that is exactly why tritanium would be a good choice.
During WWI countries went off the gold standard. Then afterwards their monetary and fiscal situations were often chaotic and a mess. So people reasoned, GÇ£WeGÇÖll go on the Gold standard and that will sort it out.GÇ¥ But once you go on something you can always go off. This created speculative pressure for when nations would go off the gold standard and the demand for gold rose dramatically as a safe harborGǪthus the price of gold went up. But as the price of gold went up then the currency price of goods and services had to go downGÇöi.e. deflation. Now using the equation of exchange again,
MV = PQ
If P goes down, then either T has to go up or M and/or V has to go down to maintain equality. The most likely thing to happen is for V to go down. Why? Well the longer you hold money the more you can buy with it in this case. Hold on to that cash long enough and soon it will have an effect on the real side of the economyGÇöi.e people are holding their cash and not spending it on goods and services. So then monetary phenomenon start to have real effects and the solution is obvious. Ditch the gold standard and start printing money (increase M). Countries that did this earlier did much better than countries that hung on to the gold standard.
Now, in the game, the ability of people to mass produce tritanium means that the price is relatively stable with a given set of mechanics. We wonGÇÖt see a sustained price increase for tritanium like with gold above. Trying to corner the trit market would be very hard and prohibitively expensiveGǪand would likely fail anyways and could wipe out the person(s) that tried it.
Still, I donGÇÖt see any of the real world problems with inflation in the game (aside from maybe PLEX prices) to indicate we need to switch to a resource backed currency.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 23:01:58 -
[53] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Actually that is exactly why tritanium would be a good choice.
During WWI countries went off the gold standard. Then afterwards their monetary and fiscal situations were often chaotic and a mess. So people reasoned, GÇ£WeGÇÖll go on the Gold standard and that will sort it out.GÇ¥ But once you go on something you can always go off. This created speculative pressure for when nations would go off the gold standard and the demand for gold rose dramatically as a safe harborGǪthus the price of gold went up. But as the price of gold went up then the currency price of goods and services had to go downGÇöi.e. deflation. Now using the equation of exchange again,
MV = PQ
If P goes down, then either T has to go up or M and/or V has to go down to maintain equality. The most likely thing to happen is for V to go down. Why? Well the longer you hold money the more you can buy with it in this case. Hold on to that cash long enough and soon it will have an effect on the real side of the economyGÇöi.e people are holding their cash and not spending it on goods and services. So then monetary phenomenon start to have real effects and the solution is obvious. Ditch the gold standard and start printing money (increase M). Countries that did this earlier did much better than countries that hung on to the gold standard.
Now, in the game, the ability of people to mass produce tritanium means that the price is relatively stable with a given set of mechanics. We wonGÇÖt see a sustained price increase for tritanium like with gold above. Trying to corner the trit market would be very hard and prohibitively expensiveGǪand would likely fail anyways and could wipe out the person(s) that tried it.
Still, I donGÇÖt see any of the real world problems with inflation in the game (aside from maybe PLEX prices) to indicate we need to switch to a resource backed currency.
Not disagreeing, but the part missing is that everything we are saying hinges on a central banking system to regulate and control (which is ridiculous in the context of EVE). In the absence of a central banking system, as well as the absence of a need to spend ISK (you have to spend money to survive IRL, you don't have to spend ISK in EVE), as well as EVE being an isolated environment (the original idea is useless without completely removing ISK), the idea of a resource based economy doesn't make sense.
Basing it on minerals simply makes it unnecessarily complicated (and easier to manipulate) without adding any discernible difference to inflation, basing it on a fixed quantity assets assumes there is control from a central authority, which is flat out counter to EVE.
I would argue a big part of why countries did better coming off a gold standard has a decent chunk to do with the fact that once your currency is backed the the faith of your government, rather than a quantifiable product, it is much easier to add leverage to that government's balance sheet. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4385
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 00:29:30 -
[54] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Actually that is exactly why tritanium would be a good choice.
During WWI countries went off the gold standard. Then afterwards their monetary and fiscal situations were often chaotic and a mess. So people reasoned, GÇ£WeGÇÖll go on the Gold standard and that will sort it out.GÇ¥ But once you go on something you can always go off. This created speculative pressure for when nations would go off the gold standard and the demand for gold rose dramatically as a safe harborGǪthus the price of gold went up. But as the price of gold went up then the currency price of goods and services had to go downGÇöi.e. deflation. Now using the equation of exchange again,
MV = PQ
If P goes down, then either T has to go up or M and/or V has to go down to maintain equality. The most likely thing to happen is for V to go down. Why? Well the longer you hold money the more you can buy with it in this case. Hold on to that cash long enough and soon it will have an effect on the real side of the economyGÇöi.e people are holding their cash and not spending it on goods and services. So then monetary phenomenon start to have real effects and the solution is obvious. Ditch the gold standard and start printing money (increase M). Countries that did this earlier did much better than countries that hung on to the gold standard.
Now, in the game, the ability of people to mass produce tritanium means that the price is relatively stable with a given set of mechanics. We wonGÇÖt see a sustained price increase for tritanium like with gold above. Trying to corner the trit market would be very hard and prohibitively expensiveGǪand would likely fail anyways and could wipe out the person(s) that tried it.
Still, I donGÇÖt see any of the real world problems with inflation in the game (aside from maybe PLEX prices) to indicate we need to switch to a resource backed currency.
Not disagreeing, but the part missing is that everything we are saying hinges on a central banking system to regulate and control (which is ridiculous in the context of EVE). In the absence of a central banking system, as well as the absence of a need to spend ISK (you have to spend money to survive IRL, you don't have to spend ISK in EVE), as well as EVE being an isolated environment (the original idea is useless without completely removing ISK), the idea of a resource based economy doesn't make sense. Basing it on minerals simply makes it unnecessarily complicated (and easier to manipulate) without adding any discernible difference to inflation, basing it on a fixed quantity assets assumes there is control from a central authority, which is flat out counter to EVE. I would argue a big part of why countries did better coming off a gold standard has a decent chunk to do with the fact that once your currency is backed the the faith of your government, rather than a quantifiable product, it is much easier to add leverage to that government's balance sheet.
I'd argue that CCP is our central banker. They could, do things like add/increase ISK sinks, they could also change rat bounties. My guess is since they don't see much inflation in terms of game items they haven't seen much need to mess with stuff.
As for fiat vs. gold backed currencies it is much easier to inflate the currency in the former case. During the Great Depression the U.S. government actually shrank the money supply! In 1930s the Fed was out there selling treasuries--i.e. taking money in exchange for government debt. By today's standards it was nuts.
But all that aside I see literally no reason to do this. That one guy wants to consider ISK of no value in game and convert it all to tritanium...fine, whatever. I don't care. Everyone else appears to have sufficient faith that CCP is not going to go off the rails and increase rat bounties by 1, 2 or 3 orders of magnitude.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.16 00:45:19 -
[55] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I'd argue that CCP is our central banker. They could, do things like add/increase ISK sinks, they could also change rat bounties. My guess is since they don't see much inflation in terms of game items they haven't seen much need to mess with stuff.
As for fiat vs. gold backed currencies it is much easier to inflate the currency in the former case. During the Great Depression the U.S. government actually shrank the money supply! In 1930s the Fed was out there selling treasuries--i.e. taking money in exchange for government debt. By today's standards it was nuts.
But all that aside I see literally no reason to do this. That one guy wants to consider ISK of no value in game and convert it all to tritanium...fine, whatever. I don't care. Everyone else appears to have sufficient faith that CCP is not going to go off the rails and increase rat bounties by 1, 2 or 3 orders of magnitude.
I definitely wasn't clear enough, CCP is absolutely our central banker. I don't think it's a good idea to implement any policies in the game that would require more interaction from them with that role. What the FED did from that time through the 50s caused passive long term issues, it took Volcker's insanity to actually stop the bleeding caused by it.
Back to the issue, I'm still 100% convinced this guy is a troll, since there really is absolutely no reason for this idea. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1587
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 15:50:08 -
[56] - Quote
I have removed a couple off-topic/troll replies.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1375
|
Posted - 2016.01.17 16:12:36 -
[57] - Quote
Lp?
Citadel worm hole tax
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 05:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Lp? The problem with loyalty points is that they can only be used to buy from a loyalty point store, they don't have a fixed value and you can't buy loyalty points from a faction.
Teckos Pech wrote: Still, I donGÇÖt see any of the real world problems with inflation in the game (aside from maybe PLEX prices) to indicate we need to switch to a resource backed currency.
Again, I'm not advocating to switch to a resource backed currency, but just to add one in case players want to use it. Just give the option but don't force anyone to use it. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2219
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 09:09:39 -
[59] - Quote
GTN wrote:Again, I'm not advocating to switch to a resource backed currency, but just to add one in case players want to use it. Just give the option but don't force anyone to use it.
GTN wrote:So let the empires issue their own currency, backed by resources. In my opinion it would allow for a more fair exchange of goods and services.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
399
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Posted - 2016.01.18 09:40:42 -
[60] - Quote
OP - have you actually sat down and read all the replies that people have made, gone away and thought (coldly and dispassionately) about your idea before making your reply? it seems to me that you're defending your idea because it's your idea and you want it.... if it was a good idea, other people would step in and at least HELP you defend it..... instead I see you against the world
Also - nullsec empires CAN and DO manipulate the cost of base minerals - I remember a few expansions ago something happened to zydrine, and so they stockpiled it immediately before, raising the price, then gradually sold off their stockpiles...... presumably making several trillion in the process.......
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4414
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:47:20 -
[61] - Quote
Well I was hoping this thread would slip to the second page and die, but guess not....
Ironically, I am actually reading up on free banking right now, in particular the Scottish free banking system which was amazingly innovative and stable. Yes, it was a system backed by gold.
But this raises another point.
Using something like tritanium is not good in that is is extremely useful in production. For this system to work the empires would have to hold massive amounts of tritanium to be ready to redeem notes backed by tritanium. That tritanium cannot be used to produce StuffGäó.
This is why gold and silver were used as a form of money. The other uses were limited and it was also in limited supply.
Further it would make hauling tritanium completely disappear from the game. I'd simply go buy Caldari Bucks or whatever, and then in my noob ship fly to wherever I want the tritanium and dock up and convert my Caldari Bucks to tritanium. And if this is a true resource backed currency it wouldn't matter what station I docked at so long as it was a station affiliated with one of the empires.
Further, production of tritanium is inflationary.
This can be seen by looking at banking systems that were backed by gold in RL. When there was a new source of gold found the money supply had to increase (since the exchange rate between notes and gold is fixed, to maintain equilibrium the quantity has to adjust). And if the supply of gold did NOT increase at the same rate as the economy did, then you'd get deflation. Yes, there were periods where people worried that the world was not producing enough gold to keep up with economic growth.
Could that last point be something players somehow manage to take advantage of? Kind of like the Goon ice interdiction? I don't, know, but having a resource backed currency does not mean the system cannot be manipulated. Look at what France did in the late 1920s.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Adunh Slavy
1632
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:31:09 -
[62] - Quote
Curbing monetary inflation in Eve is simple, and it does not require multiple faction currencies. Eve's economic problems come from the fact that shooting rats, in all its forms, produces too many kinds of rewards, ISK being one of them.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:48:26 -
[63] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Using something like tritanium is not good in that is is extremely useful in production. For this system to work the empires would have to hold massive amounts of tritanium to be ready to redeem notes backed by tritanium. That tritanium cannot be used to produce StuffGäó. The only way to buy a note from the empire is to sell a resource to it. So you can be assured that every note can be redeemed. If the banks are empty it means that no one has faction credits. The banks don't need to hold massive amounts of resources for the system to work.
Teckos Pech wrote:Further it would make hauling tritanium completely disappear from the game. I'd simply go buy Caldari Bucks or whatever, and then in my noob ship fly to wherever I want the tritanium and dock up and convert my Caldari Bucks to tritanium. And if this is a true resource backed currency it wouldn't matter what station I docked at so long as it was a station affiliated with one of the empires. Actually it will matter what station you dock at. If a player sells tritanium to a caldari bank in jita, and it's the only player in the universe that has sold tritanium to the faction, you'd be able to redeem that faction's note only in that bank in jita.
Teckos Pech wrote:I don't, know, but having a resource backed currency does not mean the system cannot be manipulated. Of course it can be manipulated. As long as it's a free market, everything can be manipulated and that's how free markets work. If you don't like manipulation, maybe you should advocate against the free market. |
Clyde Gibson
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:25:51 -
[64] - Quote
This could work if the market using Faction Credits had lower taxes then the ISK market.
I see a Lore problem with the Faction Currencies though because there are currently Faction Currencies in New Eden. Except the exchange rate currently is crazy like 1mil Cadari Currency = 1 ISK (made up numbers, look into the lore for real stats). With 1 mil isk we could buy a planet type of exchange rate.
---------------------My (non?) Solution------------------------ Create a Corp with a SET amount of shares. So if you have 100 shares then you would sell 49 of them as currency. (So you never lose the corp) Each member keeping an alt in that corp so they could trade. Base the Gold Standard on a set amount of plex.
So If I want to buy a share I would join the Corp with an alt. And pay 1/49 the cost of the "Gold Standard" per share. But you would have the same insurance if you bought plex in jita and left it there. Unless there was a bonus to trading with corp members (low broker taxes, blue to major null sec alliances, etc.)
I am for a Stock Exchange as I think it might be a better mode to create potentially stable corps that could pay dividends based on Shares. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2902
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:44:08 -
[65] - Quote
Or... we could just keep isk since there isn't an inflation problem anyway. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10318
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:49:38 -
[66] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or... we could just keep isk since there isn't an inflation problem anyway.
Inflation does exist - look how the prices of PLEX and tritanium have risen over the last several years, for example - but you're right, inflation isn't cripplingly bad.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2902
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:23:10 -
[67] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote: Inflation does exist - look how the prices of PLEX and tritanium have risen over the last several years, for example - but you're right, inflation isn't cripplingly bad.
Plex is nothing to do with inflation. It's being driven by speculation, just like the housing market in many places. 95% of trit price changes have also been nothing to do with inflation but directly related to a change by CCP to mineral production & consumption. The biggest being CCP removing the cheap shuttles from the market that had placed an artificial cap on the price of trit since over that cap you could simply by and reprocess shuttles to get trit. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.19 01:00:01 -
[68] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or... we could just keep isk since there isn't an inflation problem anyway. I don't advocate for the elimination of ISK, and I'm saying this for the third time I think. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2902
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Posted - 2016.01.19 01:11:11 -
[69] - Quote
GTN wrote: I don't advocate for the elimination of ISK, and I'm saying this for the third time I think.
No, you just advocate that isk will no longer be a viable currency since everything will need to be purchased via a faction currency. Your faction currency plan will also mean miners are no longer allowed to set their own prices for their product.
And your entire premise is faulty since there is no meaningful inflation so it doesn't matter that isk is not 'backed' by anything. (And your proposed backing is also infinite therefore does nothing to stop inflation anyway)
First, prove there is an issue with the current system, not a 'in my head if this happens we are all doomed' scenario but a real current issue. Then prove your idea solves this issue. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4417
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Posted - 2016.01.19 03:10:22 -
[70] - Quote
GTN wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Using something like tritanium is not good in that is is extremely useful in production. For this system to work the empires would have to hold massive amounts of tritanium to be ready to redeem notes backed by tritanium. That tritanium cannot be used to produce StuffGäó. The only way to buy a note from the empire is to sell a resource to it. So you can be assured that every note can be redeemed. If the banks are empty it means that no one has faction credits. The banks don't need to hold massive amounts of resources for the system to work. Teckos Pech wrote:Further it would make hauling tritanium completely disappear from the game. I'd simply go buy Caldari Bucks or whatever, and then in my noob ship fly to wherever I want the tritanium and dock up and convert my Caldari Bucks to tritanium. And if this is a true resource backed currency it wouldn't matter what station I docked at so long as it was a station affiliated with one of the empires. Actually it will matter what station you dock at. If a player sells tritanium to a caldari bank in jita, and it's the only player in the universe that has sold tritanium to the faction, you'd be able to redeem that faction's note only in that bank in jita. Teckos Pech wrote:I don't, know, but having a resource backed currency does not mean the system cannot be manipulated. Of course it can be manipulated. As long as it's a free market, everything can be manipulated and that's how free markets work. If you don't like manipulation, maybe you should advocate against the free market.
On the first point you completely fail to get my point. Having large amounts of tritanium sitting "fallow" in empire bank vaults means that that tritanium is not being used to make things.
If different Empire central banks are not willing to honor other empire notes, then WTF?!?! Why even use this ****? Free banking systems honored other banks notes, that is precisely why those systems worked. If I can only redeem at the bank I got the currency at, then that makes even less attractive.
As for manipulation, currently ISK CANNOT be manipulated. As such introducing business cycles into the game simply by the actions of player organizations does not strike me as a selling point.
Go here and listen to these podcasts. You will learn alot, I know I did. And I don't intend that to be insulting or dismissive, not in the least.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:12:24 -
[71] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:No, you just advocate that isk will no longer be a viable currency since everything will need to be purchased via a faction currency. Your faction currency plan will also mean miners are no longer allowed to set their own prices for their product. Completely false. I never said that isk should no longer be a viable currency, nor that everything has to be purchased with faction currency. Miners (and everyone) will be free to set their own prices, just like everyone can do now.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:And your entire premise is faulty since there is no meaningful inflation so it doesn't matter that isk is not 'backed' by anything. (And your proposed backing is also infinite therefore does nothing to stop inflation anyway)
First, prove there is an issue with the current system, not a 'in my head if this happens we are all doomed' scenario but a real current issue. Then prove your idea solves this issue. I don't need to prove that there is an issue with the current system. You need to prove that giving players the freedom to choose freely what they will do with their resources is a bad idea.
Teckos Pech wrote:On the first point you completely fail to get my point. Having large amounts of tritanium sitting "fallow" in empire bank vaults means that that tritanium is not being used to make things. If someone decides to store tritanium, you can't do anything about it. What difference does it make if players convert their stores of tritanium to a currency? That tritanium wasn't going to be used anyway.
Teckos Pech wrote:If different Empire central banks are not willing to honor other empire notes, then WTF?!?! Why even use this ****? Free banking systems honored other banks notes, that is precisely why those systems worked. If I can only redeem at the bank I got the currency at, then that makes even less attractive. You can redeem the note at your current bank as long as the bank has enough resources. Banks can't create resources out of nothing.
Teckos Pech wrote:As for manipulation, currently ISK CANNOT be manipulated. Of course it can be manipulated, by simply changing its demand or supply. Get a bounty from killing an NPC and you have just increased the supply of ISK, lowering its value. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2904
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:23:25 -
[72] - Quote
GTN wrote: Completely false. I never said that isk should no longer be a viable currency, nor that everything has to be purchased with faction currency. Miners (and everyone) will be free to set their own prices, just like everyone can do now.
Directly no, it's just the obvious result of your proposal. How can miners set their own prices when 1 caldari dollar is DIRECTLY 1 trit. Or whatever value you want to put on it. It strictly prohibits miners from setting their own prices. And everything you have said has been about making isk no longer a functional currency. Simply because you never said a direct quote does not change the essence of the proposal you have presented.
And no, the onus is not on us to prove why it's a bad idea, even though 4 or 5 people have punctured a massive number of holes and explained just why it is bad already. The onus is on you as the suggester to prove your claims that you are using to justify this idea and to prove that this is the best solution. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.19 12:35:41 -
[73] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:GTN wrote: Completely false. I never said that isk should no longer be a viable currency, nor that everything has to be purchased with faction currency. Miners (and everyone) will be free to set their own prices, just like everyone can do now.
Directly no, it's just the obvious result of your proposal. How can miners set their own prices when 1 caldari dollar is DIRECTLY 1 trit. Or whatever value you want to put on it. It strictly prohibits miners from setting their own prices. And everything you have said has been about making isk no longer a functional currency. Simply because you never said a direct quote does not change the essence of the proposal you have presented. No one forces a miner to convert their trit to faction currency. They can still sell their resources in exchange of isk, other goods or other currencies or services.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:And no, the onus is not on us to prove why it's a bad idea, even though 4 or 5 people have punctured a massive number of holes and explained just why it is bad already. The onus is on you as the suggester to prove your claims that you are using to justify this idea and to prove that this is the best solution. All I've received so far were strawman arguments. Why can't you answer my question of why is it a bad idea to give players the freedom to freely choose what they will do with their resources?
In case you didn't know what a strawman argument is, here is a quote from wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man):
Quote:A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.[1]
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]
This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue. Later in that article you can find a structure and examples of strawman arguments. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4427
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Posted - 2016.01.19 15:55:15 -
[74] - Quote
GTN wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:On the first point you completely fail to get my point. Having large amounts of tritanium sitting "fallow" in empire bank vaults means that that tritanium is not being used to make things. If someone decides to store tritanium, you can't do anything about it. What difference does it make if players convert their stores of tritanium to a currency? That tritanium wasn't going to be used anyway. Teckos Pech wrote:If different Empire central banks are not willing to honor other empire notes, then WTF?!?! Why even use this ****? Free banking systems honored other banks notes, that is precisely why those systems worked. If I can only redeem at the bank I got the currency at, then that makes even less attractive. You can redeem the note at your current bank as long as the bank has enough resources. Banks can't create resources out of nothing. Teckos Pech wrote:As for manipulation, currently ISK CANNOT be manipulated. Of course it can be manipulated, by simply changing its demand or supply. Get a bounty from killing an NPC and you have just increased the supply of ISK, lowering its value.
It is true that I cannot do anything if Bill wants to build a stockpile of minerals. However, we aren't talking about that, but having a currency backed by tritanium that is going to be several orders of magnitude larger of an effect. There is an enormous amount of ISK in the game. Even if a small fraction is converted over to these currencies is would move very large amounts of tritanium off the market and into bank vaults.
As for redeeming every bank will have to hold enough tritanium to satisfy expected redeeming in each hour. Failure to do so would mean the bank is insolvent and may start a run on other banks. Under your system, each bank should have 100% tritanium reserve.
As for manipulating ISK, killing a rat and getting a bounty is not manipulation. What I'm talking about is a wide spread concerted effort to cause tritanium production to deviate from its current production rates. Here is how it would work...a big coalition goes and buys up a large quantity of this currency. Then they dispatch their legions of pilots to go around HS slaughtering every mining ship they come across. Tritanium production drops, price of tritanium goes up, since the rate of exchange between these currencies and tritanium is fixed the purchasing power of these currencies goes up. The coalition goes out and buys up in game assets with the faction currencies and then stops the slaughter and the purchasing power of the faction currencies drops back down.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.20 03:44:28 -
[75] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It is true that I cannot do anything if Bill wants to build a stockpile of minerals. However, we aren't talking about that, but having a currency backed by tritanium that is going to be several orders of magnitude larger of an effect. There is an enormous amount of ISK in the game. Even if a small fraction is converted over to these currencies is would move very large amounts of tritanium off the market and into bank vaults. We don't know how big faction currencies will be. Right now nothing is stopping people from converting their isk into tritanium and stockpiling it, so it would make no difference in the future. If there is a strong desire of a very large number of players to own faction currency, they will create a big demand for it. The price of tritanium will go up temporarily, miners will start producing more tritanium to compensate and then the price of tritanium will go back down to where it is today. It may even go below today's price because then there will be a large supply of tritanium. We don't know how it will play out.
Teckos Pech wrote:As for redeeming every bank will have to hold enough tritanium to satisfy expected redeeming in each hour. Failure to do so would mean the bank is insolvent and may start a run on other banks. Under your system, each bank should have 100% tritanium reserve. That's a limitation that can't be solved. Factions can't create resources out of nothing, and thus there is no guarantee that you will be able to redeem your faction currency in every system of the universe. In fact you may be only able to do it in a handful of systems. This fact will make people think twice before using a faction currency.
Teckos Pech wrote:What I'm talking about is a wide spread concerted effort to cause tritanium production to deviate from its current production rates. Here is how it would work...a big coalition goes and buys up a large quantity of this currency. Then they dispatch their legions of pilots to go around HS slaughtering every mining ship they come across. Tritanium production drops, price of tritanium goes up, since the rate of exchange between these currencies and tritanium is fixed the purchasing power of these currencies goes up. The coalition goes out and buys up in game assets with the faction currencies and then stops the slaughter and the purchasing power of the faction currencies drops back down. That scenario has already happened with oxygen isotopes and nothing stops it from happening again with tritanium or any other resource.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4432
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Posted - 2016.01.20 05:23:06 -
[76] - Quote
GTN wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It is true that I cannot do anything if Bill wants to build a stockpile of minerals. However, we aren't talking about that, but having a currency backed by tritanium that is going to be several orders of magnitude larger of an effect. There is an enormous amount of ISK in the game. Even if a small fraction is converted over to these currencies is would move very large amounts of tritanium off the market and into bank vaults. We don't know how big faction currencies will be. Right now nothing is stopping people from converting their isk into tritanium and stockpiling it, so it would make no difference in the future. If there is a strong desire of a very large number of players to own faction currency, they will create a big demand for it. The price of tritanium will go up temporarily, miners will start producing more tritanium to compensate and then the price of tritanium will go back down to where it is today. It may even go below today's price because then there will be a large supply of tritanium. We don't know how it will play out. Teckos Pech wrote:As for redeeming every bank will have to hold enough tritanium to satisfy expected redeeming in each hour. Failure to do so would mean the bank is insolvent and may start a run on other banks. Under your system, each bank should have 100% tritanium reserve. That's a limitation that can't be solved. Factions can't create resources out of nothing, and thus there is no guarantee that you will be able to redeem your faction currency in every system of the universe. In fact you may be only able to do it in a handful of systems. This fact will make people think twice before using a faction currency. Teckos Pech wrote:What I'm talking about is a wide spread concerted effort to cause tritanium production to deviate from its current production rates. Here is how it would work...a big coalition goes and buys up a large quantity of this currency. Then they dispatch their legions of pilots to go around HS slaughtering every mining ship they come across. Tritanium production drops, price of tritanium goes up, since the rate of exchange between these currencies and tritanium is fixed the purchasing power of these currencies goes up. The coalition goes out and buys up in game assets with the faction currencies and then stops the slaughter and the purchasing power of the faction currencies drops back down. That scenario has already happened with oxygen isotopes and nothing stops it from happening again with tritanium or any other resource. Manipulation of the markets is here to stay, as long as players dictate the supply and demand of goods.
If faction currencies are going to be trivial...then who cares and why bother?
And yeah, large numbers of players could convert their ISK to Tritanium...except that tritanium is not a medium exchange and doing so reduces their liquidity. And I don't see why we should incentivize it.
Look, for a bank to be solvent with a resource backed currency that bank has to have enough of the resource in question to redeem all of the currency people want redeemed. Failure to do so will result in a run on the bank which in RL would cause it to collapse with the loss of everyone's deposits. I don't think we should add this as a feature to a game that is supposed to be fun. Losing your in game wealth due to such shenanigans just strike me as fun...especially as it can happen to people when they are asleep, at work, etc.
Please don't bring up scamming as that usually entails a player who is so greedy they don't slow down to check out the awesome deal they are about to get. I'm talking about something completely different.
As for the Gallente ice interdiction it did not link up to literally every other item in the game. About the only items in game that do not require some amount of tritanium that I know of are T2 inputs like particle accelerators or thermonuclear triggers. Other that you'll need trit to make just about everything else. Deliberately creating a situation that can be manipulated just because does not strike me as good game design.
You don't like ISK and think it is valueless...fine. Hold your wealth in tit or whatever else you care too. The growth rate in the money supply while we can debate being too high...is at least stable. A stable growth rate in a fiat money supply will mean a stable inflation rate. And taking into account other changes about the only place we see sustained "inflation" is in PLEX and even there it could very well be a result of CCP linking PLEX to more and more in-game things and not to inflation.
As is the usual refrain:
1. What problem does this address? 2. Will this solve the problem?
If you answer is, "No problem, and it addresses nothing, but dang I think it would be cool!" That is not sufficient. I'm don't think adding a boom and bust cycle to the game would be all that fun and exciting, especially one that could possibly be triggered by players looking to abuse the system.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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