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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 02:48:43 -
[1] - Quote
I think that allowing each player to print ISK by killing useless NPCs and forcing every player to accept the ISK has bad aspects, like inflation.
For example, a corporation of miners can mine for 1 hour and produce a lot of resources. They put their resources for sale at 1 billion isk. Another corporation is made up of NPC killers, they go out for 1 hour, kill NPCs and get 1 billion isk in bounties. Killing NPCs is not useful work right now. Killing them doesn't change anything in the game. Can we equate 1 billion isk made from killing NPCs to 1 hour of mining? I don't think so. The miners worked hard and produced resources. The NPC killers worked hard and produced nothing, and with that nothing they can buy all the resources from the miners.
So let the empires issue their own currency, backed by resources. In my opinion it would allow for a more fair exchange of goods and services.
For example, player A puts a Kestrel for sale asking for 100,000 caldari credits. Player B wants the Kestrel, but he cannot buy it with ISK, he must obtain caldari credits first. Player B must deliver tritanium to a caldari bank (because the caldari credits are backed by tritanium), either directly or indirectly. So he delivers 100,000 tritanium to a caldari bank and gets 100,000 caldari credits in return. Then he buys the Kestrel and player A receives 100,000 caldari credits. Player A can now go to a caldari bank and get 100,000 tritanium. Both players exchanged useful goods, without meeting eachother and without using contracts. Of course this example is silly, but it's just to illustrate one possible way of how it may work.
Maybe we can expand currency creation to alliances too?
What are your opinions? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
43356
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Posted - 2016.01.15 03:20:16 -
[2] - Quote
From what I understand of the inflation graphs that will become part of the monthly economic report, inflation isn't really an issue in New Eden:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/economy.indices_4.png
There are some isolated items like PLEX for example, but overall the issue of inflation hasn't been a problem.
I'm just a layman, so I might be reading that wrong.
If this is more an issue of equity between what can be earned in different professions, well we all have choices. We can always change what we do in game if we aren't happy.
I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different currencies.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2497
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Posted - 2016.01.15 03:26:49 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:From what I understand of the inflation graphs that will become part of the monthly economic report, inflation isn't really an issue in New Eden: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/economy.indices_4.png There are some isolated items like PLEX for example, but overall the issue of inflation hasn't been a problem. I'm just a layman, so I might be reading that wrong. If this is more an issue of equity between what can be earned in different professions, well we all have choices. We can always change what we do in game if we aren't happy. I don't really see much value in splitting currency into 4 different currencies.
There is no reason to implement 4 currency since for simplicity sake, people will all flood to one of them because **** having to deal with money exchanges. Chance are we would all flock to caldari money because "Jita". |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 03:38:10 -
[4] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies.
I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2499
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:04:39 -
[5] - Quote
GTN wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies. I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation.
If ISKs stays, then everybody will keep using the "standard" currency and your 4 newly created currency will happen to be nothing but newbie traps. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:14:33 -
[6] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:GTN wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:I don't really see much value in splitting ISK into 4 different barter-based currencies. I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation. If ISKs stays, then everybody will keep using the "standard" currency and your 4 newly created currency will happen to be nothing but newbie traps.
Once CCP announces the new currencies, a lot of people will start to convert their ISK into resources. The price of goods will skyrocket.The inflation that you don't see because people are hoarding ISK, will suddenly appear. ISK may die very quickly. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2894
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:15:24 -
[7] - Quote
GTN wrote: I'm not advocating for the removal of ISK, but just the addition of new, more stable currencies. I don't know what is the level of inflation, but I feel that since each player can print their own ISK, there is great potential for more inflation.
Step one to a good suggestion. Establish the 'problem' you are trying to fix actually exists in the first place. Step two. Learn the standard solutions to said problem.
In this case there is no problem, isk is actually a very stable currency. Therefore nothing needs to be done. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1536
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:30:47 -
[9] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution.
There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2894
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Posted - 2016.01.15 04:48:43 -
[10] - Quote
GTN wrote: There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources.
So you mean you want miners to have a fixed income since they can never charge more for their product to reflect the difficulties in getting it to a particular location? |
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
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Posted - 2016.01.15 05:41:32 -
[11] - Quote
GTN wrote:[quote=Frostys Virpio]The inflation that you don't see because people are hoarding ISK, will suddenly appear. ISK may die very quickly. Hoarding ISK isn't an issue as you said yourself, players can print their own ISK.
Oh god.
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3933
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Posted - 2016.01.15 05:42:51 -
[12] - Quote
GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. Then resources need to become limited and you'll be here whining that there is nothing left to mine and everyone is hoarding ISK and resources (Which isn't a problem now, but will be if your idea happens).
Oh god.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4363
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Posted - 2016.01.15 06:40:35 -
[13] - Quote
GTN wrote:I think that allowing each player to print ISK by killing useless NPCs and forcing every player to accept the ISK has bad aspects, like inflation.
You don't have to accept ISK...so there is no force involved.
Quote:For example, a corporation of miners can mine for 1 hour and produce a lot of resources. They put their resources for sale at 1 billion isk. Another corporation is made up of NPC killers, they go out for 1 hour, kill NPCs and get 1 billion isk in bounties. Killing NPCs is not useful work right now. Killing them doesn't change anything in the game. Can we equate 1 billion isk made from killing NPCs to 1 hour of mining? I don't think so. The miners worked hard and produced resources. The NPC killers worked hard and produced nothing, and with that nothing they can buy all the resources from the miners.
So let the empires issue their own currency, backed by resources. In my opinion it would allow for a more fair exchange of goods and services.
Well you want some money, and you probably want a steady growth in the money supply as well. If the money supply did not grow at all then you could end up with deflation. And when deflation is simply a monetary phenomenon then you could see the the monetary effects lead to real effects--i.e. miners not mining, people not building, etc. This was one of the problems during the Great Depression when the money supply completely collapsed. People started holding cash so the velocity of money declined. Using the equation of exchange,
MV = PT,
If V goes down then to maintain equality then either M has to go up, but that didn't happen, in fact in the U.S. the Federal Reserve was doing exactly the opposite, they were buying treasuries which meant the M was going down. So the only place for the equality to be restored is on the right hand side, P and/or T h ave to go down. P are prices and yes they went down. T is transactions which represents real activity and that went down too. Alot. So much so unemployment rose to amazingly high levels.
Why would introducing a new currency make things more "fair"? Why not just monitor the growth rate of ISK and make sure that it is not getting out of hand in terms of general prices.
Quote:For example, player A puts a Kestrel for sale asking for 100,000 caldari credits. Player B wants the Kestrel, but he cannot buy it with ISK, he must obtain caldari credits first. Player B must deliver tritanium to a caldari bank (because the caldari credits are backed by tritanium), either directly or indirectly. So he delivers 100,000 tritanium to a caldari bank and gets 100,000 caldari credits in return. Then he buys the Kestrel and player A receives 100,000 caldari credits. Player A can now go to a caldari bank and get 100,000 tritanium. Both players exchanged useful goods, without meeting eachother and without using contracts. Of course this example is silly, but it's just to illustrate one possible way of how it may work.
You might also want to consider things like Gresham's Law which holds that bad money (i.e. fiat currency, ISK) will drive out good currency (a resource backed currency, Caldari Credits). Again, we saw this with the Great Depression as well, people would horde gold over paper money. This is why Roosevelt issued Executive Order 6102 which made hoarding gold illegal. The idea was to allow the Federal Reserve to expand the money supply which was desperately needed to help turn the economy around.
Quote:Maybe we can expand currency creation to alliances too?
What are your opinions?
No on that last one.
Suppose I do the following:
I create the Teckos, a new in game currency and I'll issue 1 Teckos for 10 units of Tritanium and people go for it. So I have 1 billion units of trit and there are 100 million Teckos out there. I transfer the trit to an alt who sells it since the price of trit has gone up since alot of it instead of going to the market ended up in my hangar. Once the trit is gone, I declare the Bank of Teckos insolvent and all those Teckos' are now not even useful for wallpapering your captain's quarters (because you can't wallpaper your captain's quarters).
Seeing as most people will spot this possibility...nobody is going to exchange trit for a Teckos...so it would likely just end up a waste of Dev time.
And what exactly would this fix? With recent changes to station slots making them unlimited, changes to anchoring POS, and so forth manufacturing and invention have actually gotten cheaper...so any price increases due to the ISK supply growing too much appear to have been largely offset.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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SynthiaGreey
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2016.01.15 08:52:07 -
[14] - Quote
Additional currencies are called Loyalty Points - and are used to obtain faction specific items. What we need is just more of useful items that can be only obtained by loyalty points. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1752
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Posted - 2016.01.15 13:01:17 -
[15] - Quote
SynthiaGreey wrote:Additional currencies are called Loyalty Points - and are used to obtain faction specific items. What we need is just more of useful items that can be only obtained by loyalty points.
Along with this, it isn't all that difficult to swing LP values all over the place. Right now we have isk, aurum and PLEX and LP that can all be valued against each other. There are players that manipulate the current ones to create wealth. Some folks are really good at it. Adding 4 more currencies will just make that aspect of the game easier (the part where you manipulate one form of currency for profit). At a glance I would immediately look to make minmatar currency total crap, buy it up while it's super cheap and then affect the game to then make it worth a lot while pounding down the gallente currency. Just keep rinsing and repeating.
It would just be another way to create wealth from wealth. I'm all for sandbox play but I'll say this also - Eve is pretty much supposed to be an epic pvp space game. It's kind of hurting in the content area at the moment. There isn't a lot of meaning in most of the combat. The lack of meaning equates (for me) to the games inability to hold on to players over the long term. I see the introduction of 4 more currencies as a way for the folks that have piles of isk/LP/trit and so on to leverage their current vast wealth to create more through manipulation. I don't think that's the point of the game. Sure its a sandbox, but the game is about space fights - it's not about piling isk.
I don't think 4 more currencies will add the kind of game play the game needs. Especially with the current lack of meaning driven content.
TL/DR - adding more complexity to the current isk/PLEX/aurum/LP mix by adding 4 more equivalents won't fix anything and it won't make anything better. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:48:22 -
[16] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: There are players that manipulate the current ones to create wealth. Some folks are really good at it. Adding 4 more currencies will just make that aspect of the game easier (the part where you manipulate one form of currency for profit). At a glance I would immediately look to make minmatar currency total crap, buy it up while it's super cheap and then affect the game to then make it worth a lot while pounding down the gallente currency. Just keep rinsing and repeating.
When a currency is backed by a resource, it takes the intrinsic value of that resource. A currency that is backed by tritanium becomes as difficult to manipulate as tritanium itself. It becomes virtually impossible to manipulate because the supply and demand are both enormous and no single entity has the means of making a dent on it. Right now there are 40.4 billion units of tritanium on sell orders and 84.3 billion units on buy orders. You'd need more than 230 billion isk to buy it all and in a matter of hours the price would go back to where it was. Everyone knows what the right price of tritanium is and if you tried to sell your tritanium for 1 isk more, no one would buy it and you'd waste billions of isk.
Serendipity Lost wrote: TL/DR - adding more complexity to the current isk/PLEX/aurum/LP mix by adding 4 more equivalents won't fix anything and it won't make anything better.
Except that the currencies that you mentioned are not backed by anything, so not really equivalent. Whether it will make it better or not is not important (well, for NPC killers it is I guess), but at least give players the choice. Let players decide what is the best currency for them. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:53:12 -
[17] - Quote
All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:55:48 -
[18] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE
CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:59:27 -
[19] - Quote
GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. Actually adding currencies would give more freedom. I don't see where is the freedom in being forced to use a currency that anyone can print.
Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:05:35 -
[20] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:All this would do is effectively take the market away from the userbase and allow CCP to control prices through exchange rates. This is a step away from the free market that we all love about EVE CCP cannot control the exchange rates, just like CCP cannot control the exchange rate of tritanium to isk. Actually adding currencies would give more freedom. I don't see where is the freedom in being forced to use a currency that anyone can print. Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits?
Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? |
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:09:13 -
[21] - Quote
GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk?
I'm trying to get you to think through the idea you proposed, you tell me. It wouldn't work for a few very blatant reasons. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:11:35 -
[22] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? I'm trying to get you to think through the idea you proposed, you tell me. It wouldn't work for a few very blatant reasons. Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:14:45 -
[23] - Quote
GTN wrote:Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard.
Walk me through how we would determine that 100,000 trit is worth 100,000 caldari credits.
You never answered my question. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:15:05 -
[24] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Who determines that 100,000 trit are worth 100,000 caldari credits? Who determines that 1 caldari credit is worth 6 isk? you tell me.
The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:18:10 -
[25] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:Yet those reasons are nowhere to be heard. Walk me through how we would determine that 100,000 trit is worth 100,000 caldari credits. You never answered my question.
The exchange rate of tritanium to caldari credit can be determined by the userbase through a voting system. But once set, it's forever. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1540
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:26:50 -
[26] - Quote
GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources.
So instead of "Faction currencies to mitigate inflation" you should have titled this, "Faction currencies because idk it would be cool tho, rite?"
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:30:22 -
[27] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:GTN wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:You seem to have skipped over the part where you establish that there is actually a problem and just moved on ahead with proposing an ill-conceived solution. There is no problem and I didn't propose any solution. I just think that it would be great to have currencies backed by resources. So instead of "Faction currencies to mitigate inflation" you should have titled this, "Faction currencies because idk it would be cool tho, rite?"
You are right, it would do nothing to stop ISK inflation, but at least it would give players the choice of using a currency that has some value. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:32:10 -
[28] - Quote
GTN wrote:The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk.
Exactly the problem. Now there are four more currencies to manipulate, making market fluctuation swing even wilder than they are now. It would do nothing for inflation, it would only line the pockets of those who care enough to play currency games. If anything, it would make predicting inflation/deflationary trends even more difficult than it is today.
The only feasible way you could use this to control inflation would be to have CCP set limits on the exchange rates, which is not something we want. |
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:37:10 -
[29] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:GTN wrote:The userbase has determined that 1 tritanium is worth 6 isk, thus 1 caldari credit will be worth 6 isk. If the userbase determines that tritanium is worth 7 isk, then 1 caldari credit will be worth 7 isk. Exactly the problem. Now there are four more currencies to manipulate, making market fluctuation swing even wilder than they are now. It would do nothing for inflation, it would only line the pockets of those who care enough to play currency games. If anything, it would make predicting inflation/deflationary trends even more difficult than it is today. The only feasible way you could use this to control inflation would be to have CCP set limits on the exchange rates, which is not something we want. You say that you don't want CCP to set exchange rates, then complain when players manipulate the market and set their own exchange rates? The irony is strong. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
79
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:40:59 -
[30] - Quote
GTN wrote:You say that you don't want CCP to set exchange rates, then complain when players manipulate the market and set their own exchange rates? The irony is strong.
Did you read what I wrote? Players manipulating the market is good for the game. That taken to a ridiculous extreme is not.
"If a little of something is good, it doesn't mean a lot of the same thing is great"
That's the idea behind 'balance' |
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