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Sebastien LeReparteur
Minmatar
SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.25 20:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sebastien LeReparteur on 25/01/2007 20:52:42
Yes!!!!!!!
Join any big Corp and Alliance and help those wannabes Slush puppy leaders build more Steeves!!
Edit : For references Steeve is a Titan built by ASCN that was used very very cleverly.
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Randolf Sightblinder
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Posted - 2007.01.25 21:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Randolf Sightblinder on 25/01/2007 21:04:02
 Originally by: Humpalot
We had guards and a good number of them including tacklers and e-war ships and damage dealers. However, we did not play an NBSI policy. My guards do not want the sec hit so people would wander by and the guards would target lock them but otherwise let them make the first move. Guy would bookmark a nice spot and leave. Then come back, align for warp and pop off shots at the barges or cans. Popping cans was just a nuisance...barges die easily. Guy would jet off before guards could do much of anything.
Our haulers would likewise get popped coming out of the station in much the same manner. The icing on the cake was a Dread ganking everything in sight. Our guards went to have at the Dread who conveniently docked.
This was just solo gankers. Having a nice big squad on station a few times drew a nice big squad of pirates looking for some fun. All well and good and actually the guards were happy because it was some fun for them too but guess what goes down first? Haulers and miners (many got away but not for lack of trying on the pirates part and they invariably got some).
These few paragraphs pretty much indicate a lot of what is worng with PvP in EVE. It is imposible to escort things without a NBSI policy combined with a large enough force to instapop an attacker.
This situation is like requiring an entire carrier battlegroup to escort a single freighter in peacetime, requiring that level of force to defend during a wardec would be fine. The fact that a lot of pirates are running around in the equivelent of the USS Iowa or USS Enterprise doesn't help matters.
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BlackMoon Thrawn
the Organ Grinder and Company
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.01.25 22:39:00 -
[33]
PVPers whine that the game is too carebeary and non-PVPers whine that EVE is full of griefers. If we stop hearing from either side for a protracted period of time I would start to worry that the game is out of balance.
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2007.01.25 22:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The term carebear when used by someone categorable as an intelligent lifeform, in the context of Eve Online, means someone that doesn't accept interdependence and the possibility that people will affect eachother negatively, and non-consentually.
I think that is an excellent definition.
Carebear : One who does not accept interdependence and the possibility that ppl can affect each other negatively without consent.
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Kryss Darkdust
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Posted - 2007.01.25 23:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kinthar Xanadu
I have been reading several posts over the past few days and keep seeing people using the term "carebear". I am assuming that this is some kind of derogatory reference towards people who don't like PVP. Seems like a pretty immature attitude to resort to childish name-calling, but oh well.
It seems to me that some of the PVP "elitists" think that this game is all about them and anyone who doesn't like PVP should shut up and go away. Unfortunately I think that CCP shares your opinion. Supposedly this game is designed for each person to be able to enjoy their own playstyle and thus the reason for having character creation options for Mining, Manufacturing, Research, and yes of course Combat. The problem is that if you take a non-Combat route you can only go so far in this game before CCP forces you to participate in PVP.
Mining is the best example of this in my opinion. A miner can begin is career in a frigate mining in hi-sec and work his way up to a cruiser with better lasers, and eventually a barge or even an exhumer with strip mining lasers. Unfortunately this is where CCP puts the screws to the miner in that to continue seeking out the ores that will best reward the miner for his investment in time he MUST venture into low-sec and be FORCED to participate in PVP.
To make matters even worse, PVPers can almost survive completely without miners. PVPers can run complexes and either use gear found in these complexes or by refining the gear dropped obtain a significant percentage of the minerals necessary for production. This greatly reduces the imprtance of mining in EVE and once again elevates PVP in the game.
It's a shame that CCP does not better balance interdependence within the game and thus making it more appealing to a larger audience by truly supporting non-PVP play-styles. Making PVPers truly NEED miners for the valuable ores they provide would most definitely enhance the EVE universe in my opinion.
Its a common misconception about CCP, but one defining aspect of the company is that they aren't looking to make EVE-Online more appealing to a larger audiance. It might suprise people, but this game is designed by people who like it to be a full PVP game and as such by playing Eve Online you effectivly sign up for a PvP game. There are no "I don't want to PvP" options in Eve. Mining in High Sec is just something you do to work up your character skills, but eventually you are forced to venture into low sec and null sec because this is in fact the "higher level" game. You of course could stay in High Sec indefinitly, which a lot of people do, but you are effectivly staying at lower levels intentionaly.
Think of it this way. By not venturing into low sec and null sec, its like playing WOW up to 30th and then stopping leveling up because your afraid of the 35th level dungeons.
The point is that most people who are starting out are carebears. Once you get into the game, you will eventually either start liking PvP or quit the game, because if you are looking for a non-pvp game, Eve Online simply isn't it and it is EXACTLY as the developers intend it to be.
Are you are gamer?
www.playhardliveeasy.blogspot.com |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.01.25 23:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kryss Darkdust
The point is that most people who are starting out are carebears. Once you get into the game, you will eventually either start liking PvP or quit the game, because if you are looking for a non-pvp game, Eve Online simply isn't it and it is EXACTLY as the developers intend it to be.
Nonsense.
I have been playing EVE for over 3 years and while I have spent a few turns in 0.0 and low sec I mostly hang in Empire. I do not consider myself a combat PvPer and mostly that aspect of the game is not really my bag. Certainly I have done it, both had it thrust upon me and sought it out, killed and been killed but it is not my thing usually.
Yet here I am.
I stay for the (mostly) amazing community. I stay because I find the market aspects of the game fun. I enjoy the occasional ratting/complex. I suffer agent missions to gain standing so I can refine better.
While I certainly do not enjoy being ganked I accept it as part of the game and know that the game overall is better for allowing these conflicts but with over 100,000 paid subscribers I think you are wrong to assume that only the combat PvPers have any place in the long term in this game.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.26 00:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kinthar Xanadu
I have been reading several posts over the past few days and keep seeing people using the term "carebear". I am assuming that this is some kind of derogatory reference towards people who don't like PVP. Seems like a pretty immature attitude to resort to childish name-calling, but oh well.
It seems to me that some of the PVP "elitists" think that this game is all about them and anyone who doesn't like PVP should shut up and go away. Unfortunately I think that CCP shares your opinion. Supposedly this game is designed for each person to be able to enjoy their own playstyle and thus the reason for having character creation options for Mining, Manufacturing, Research, and yes of course Combat. The problem is that if you take a non-Combat route you can only go so far in this game before CCP forces you to participate in PVP.
Mining is the best example of this in my opinion. A miner can begin is career in a frigate mining in hi-sec and work his way up to a cruiser with better lasers, and eventually a barge or even an exhumer with strip mining lasers. Unfortunately this is where CCP puts the screws to the miner in that to continue seeking out the ores that will best reward the miner for his investment in time he MUST venture into low-sec and be FORCED to participate in PVP.
To make matters even worse, PVPers can almost survive completely without miners. PVPers can run complexes and either use gear found in these complexes or by refining the gear dropped obtain a significant percentage of the minerals necessary for production. This greatly reduces the imprtance of mining in EVE and once again elevates PVP in the game.
It's a shame that CCP does not better balance interdependence within the game and thus making it more appealing to a larger audience by truly supporting non-PVP play-styles. Making PVPers truly NEED miners for the valuable ores they provide would most definitely enhance the EVE universe in my opinion.
You're a sissy.
(That's called a flame. Check your six! You're on fire!)
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.01.26 00:34:00 -
[38]
Yeah people say we need industrialists... we dont... we need a 5mil sp alt to do that crap for us.
So your pvp alliance wants to build some crap? ok. Log on alts, strip a 0.0 system, build a ton of crap, PVP with it.
Or easier yet, build an outpost with a refinery and let the carebears bring you the ore.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.01.26 01:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
Yeah people say we need industrialists... we dont... we need a 5mil sp alt to do that crap for us.
So your pvp alliance wants to build some crap? ok. Log on alts, strip a 0.0 system, build a ton of crap, PVP with it.
Clearly you do not build much. I have 12 mil SP in Science and Industry alone and I still am not able to build all the things I'd like to be able to build.
If you didn't have industrialists and miners all the PvPers would spend 90% of their time making money to build the stuff they need to PvP. That would make the PvPers...carebears!
Gotta love the irony...
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Coran Ordus
Radiant With Terror
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Posted - 2007.01.26 01:39:00 -
[40]
So what is the OP's point? What are you asking for, precisely?
The argument seems to be two things.
1) Minerals should be more valuable and rare.
Have you had problems selling minerals? Do you put it on market and no one buys it up? Haven't you noticed the massive spike in base mineral prices lately? I don't see any compelling reason CCP should step in and tweak the economy at the moment.
2) That if PVP were made easier to avoid, there would be more subscribers.
So what? Why is that a good thing? Fancy restaurants could make more profit if they turned into a McDonalds, and hockey probably would have more viewers if it were soccer instead. But then we end up with a wealth of choices, everything the same. What is wrong with having a niche that is profitable, has a fanatical following, and is pretty enjoyable on the whole?
Has it occurred to you that maybe the intricate market that exists only functions properly within a fully-fledged PVP world? Consider what a PVP-free world would be like. Mission runners and ratters don't lose ships _that_ often. Mining becomes barely profitable, as does industry. Just like most every other MMORPG out there, funnily enough... to make creation worthwhile you need comparable destruction.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2007.01.26 02:18:00 -
[41]
Eve is a game that involves a significant amount of non-consensual pvp. This is a element of the game that the designers consider important and which adds to the game in many ways. Of course it also tends to affect the game in negative ways as well. Rather then go into a detailed analysis of these, I'd like to jsut state that the proponents of both sides have valid arguments and that EVE has always tried to steer a middle course.
This is currently becoming more and more difficult because the PVP and PVE elements of the game continue to move further apart. This is due to two primary reasons:
1) PVP setups have huge advantages over any PVE setups. Ships configured to fighting other players are much much more effective at ithten those that are configured to fighting PVE, mining, transorting etc.
2) the Aggressor has huge advantage in EVE he picks both the time and the range of engagment. Historically these advatages would be offset by the ability to "prepare" a possition, local knowedge etc. In EVE these factors are minimal.
3) The advantage of numbers in PVP is tremendous, while in PVP it is often a detriment, or at best a wash.
These elements have led to a situation where many PVE players find the risks involved with chancing PVP much too high to outrweigh the gains. This is bad for both aprties of course.
Possible solutions: CCP's goal should be to stop this divergence and reversing it. This could be done in a lot of ways with small incremental steps: temporary defensive assemblies, the ability to truly screen as a escort, better grouping mechanics for missioners, etc.
Players tend to play to avoid risk to themselves even when ackowedging that risk is beeter for the game. PVPers go after easier wins and group together to gain insurmountable edges, PVE players avoid low sec entirely. This is exceaberated when the risk isn't ammelorated by a reasonable reward.
CCP needs to continue to adjust EVE to counter this.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.26 02:37:00 -
[42]
Lincoln Armm speaks the truth.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.01.26 03:34:00 -
[43]
Very, very well put Lincoln Armm.
Agree 100%.
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Onchas Erivvia
The Andromeda Directorate
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Posted - 2007.01.26 18:50:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kinthar Xanadu
I have been reading several posts over the past few days and keep seeing people using the term "carebear". I am assuming that this is some kind of derogatory reference towards people who don't like PVP. Seems like a pretty immature attitude to resort to childish name-calling, but oh well.
It seems to me that some of the PVP "elitists" think that this game is all about them and anyone who doesn't like PVP should shut up and go away. Unfortunately I think that CCP shares your opinion. Supposedly this game is designed for each person to be able to enjoy their own playstyle and thus the reason for having character creation options for Mining, Manufacturing, Research, and yes of course Combat. The problem is that if you take a non-Combat route you can only go so far in this game before CCP forces you to participate in PVP.
Mining is the best example of this in my opinion. A miner can begin is career in a frigate mining in hi-sec and work his way up to a cruiser with better lasers, and eventually a barge or even an exhumer with strip mining lasers. Unfortunately this is where CCP puts the screws to the miner in that to continue seeking out the ores that will best reward the miner for his investment in time he MUST venture into low-sec and be FORCED to participate in PVP.
To make matters even worse, PVPers can almost survive completely without miners. PVPers can run complexes and either use gear found in these complexes or by refining the gear dropped obtain a significant percentage of the minerals necessary for production. This greatly reduces the imprtance of mining in EVE and once again elevates PVP in the game.
It's a shame that CCP does not better balance interdependence within the game and thus making it more appealing to a larger audience by truly supporting non-PVP play-styles. Making PVPers truly NEED miners for the valuable ores they provide would most definitely enhance the EVE universe in my opinion.
I think it's time for you to get out of your n00b corp and join a decent corporation who can teach you how the game works. I know that sounds like a typically ******* response, but it's the most succinct way I can get the point across. I really get the impression from what you wrote that your experiences with the game have been extraordinarily limited in scope and you're not truly understanding how mining fits into the game economics or into corporate and alliance structures.
Bottomline: mining as a career is an ends in itself is pretty limited. Mining as part of a broader effort to build something in demand can be extremely lucrative, but it needs to be done as part of a team effort -- you can make a lot of money these days mining even veldspar as part of a corp/alliance that's building capital ships. Although the amount Tritanium sells for is extremely low, it represents a large part of capital ship's build cost. Any production significantly increases the value of your mins. Now, many people out there will simply not be arsed enough to spend the time making things and trying to sell them and will feel it a better use of their time to simply sell their mins. But when working as part of a group with as smart division of labour, you can make a whole lot more.
Frankly, the chances of you getting that team organization or goal continuing to sit in Royal Amarr Institute as you have for the last four months is exceedingly slim. It's time for you to get serious about playing the game and learning the mechanics and get out there and join a serious industrial/mining corp.
------------------------------------------
'Teh Onchinator'
Personal Assistant to MrsPitman |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.01.26 20:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kinthar Xanadu
The problem is that if you take a non-Combat route you can only go so far in this game before CCP forces you to participate in PVP.
That depends if you mean PvP or that part of it which is ship combat. I assume since we're talking about low-sec you mean combat.
I've been playing nearly three years (next month in fact) and I've never engaged in PvP and certainly never been forced into it. I spent six months in 0.0 and wasn't forced to PvP either so I stuck to rats, mining and building.
The 'problem' with this game is precisely the fact that you don't need to engage in combat and can live your Eve life in safety and security minding your own business in Empire.
Luckily this is only a 'problem' from the pirate perspective. From the perspective of the other 80% of people in the game it is a definite plus and allows them to continue playing without becoming victims of some wanna-be hudlum.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Galataan
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Posted - 2007.01.26 21:27:00 -
[46]
I've been a diehard lowsec miner, and even I'm starting to question the value. I do most things right - I'm in a relatively secure area with a lot of friendlies, I watch local all the time... And I still get ganked. Got wiped by a pie in a Thorax last week - warp, MWD, scramble, boom. I was aligned and ready to run, she had a 3.0 sec rating (I hate rats who hide behind high sec rating).
That cost me almost two weeks worth of income. Mining for profit in low sec, especially solo or semi-solo, simply doesn't compute.
Hedbergite is about triple the value of Omber/Kernite in back-of-the-envelope calculations - it's probably less than that now, with the recent shifts in mineral prices.
All the "Get a team" people apparrently can't do basic math. If you add in even one extra person, now you're splitting it, and your profit is something about 20% above Omber. General security considerations easily kill the remainder... My Covetor got hit a few weeks back, and 100 million ISK went poof.
Why would people bother with it? I'm not ready to sell my soul to an alliance for access to 0.0. So that leaves low sec or high sec. Low sec requires more coordination to ensure combat cover, it provides very little additional reward, and it entails far greater risk.
I don't have a solution, and we can all argue until our fingers fall off about what the game is, and how much CCP prefers our own personal little visions of nirvana, but the numbers simply don't add up for any but the most risk-friendly pilots.
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Sebastien LeReparteur
Minmatar
SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp
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Posted - 2007.01.26 21:37:00 -
[47]
IMO low sec is a trap simply put.
Bounty are weak and roids are normal plus a little cookie. Jaspet while paying ain't the best.
Plus pirate infest the area. In 0.0 you attack first, no sec drop and lost of fun.
0.0 as much more to give.
The only good side to low sec is the relative high paying missions.
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