What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?

What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?

To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs.

2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(?
or do I still miss something important?
Thanks for any comments.

Issues:
1) paying real money to get SP

Issues:
1) paying real money to get SP

SP has been one the thing makes EVE so unique compared to others.
I enjoy that passive feelings that my character is building even when I was offline or not doing anything.
Of course I am like the others, hate waiting, for right now I'm training T2 turret, it takes almost a month.
To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs.
I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that.
It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.

2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want.
That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.
Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.
But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots.
Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".
How about adding some kind of "cool down" like jump fatigue to prevent cash-based abuse?

Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(?
or do I still miss something important?
Thanks for any comments.

.... they may be able to make the game FTP or significantly alter the subscription model going forward.

.

I'm not worrying about the market as the presumption is that SP being a commodity which impacting the PLEX's price.

What I'm trying to express is that people can simply buy SP and bring p2w ideas into EVE.
Not truly p2w but partially still kills the uniqueness.

One measure is to regulate the number of injection per month let say.
But seems like CCP isn't gonna implement any injection/extraction fatigue at all...

2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want.
That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.

Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.

But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots.
Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".

In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.

Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.

plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments

Probably these coherent arguments that you speak of are well hidden among the over 1000 posts of nonsense.

Help me out, point out a couple of good ones.

..

It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens...

not really sure why you think this. you will still need your booster alts, they will just be on grid with you. so i doubt you will a massive dumping of alts. tbh

In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.

Here is my objection - not to the ability itself to trade SP, rather that the ability to enable that trade comes with an AUR cost.

These are the things I can spend my real-world money to purchase:

• A month's worth of game time. (Can be done by either a subscription, or a PLEX.)
• The ability to resculpt the way a character looks. This has no effect on in-game activities.
• The ability to train multiple characters on a single account. This has no effect on in-game activities.
• Cosmetic items like clothing and SKINs. This has no effect on in-game activities.
• The ability to transfer ownership of a whole character. This has no effect on in-game activities.

These are things I can do in the game that do not cost any real-world money beyond the sub price. Some of them are quite basic.

• Undock.
• Engage in PvP.
• List an item on the market, including PLEX.
• Purchase items from the market, including PLEX.
• Purchase a BPO from an NPC.
• Insert an implant.
• Inject a skillbook.

To me, adding an AUR cost to purchasing a Skill Extractor is akin to adding an AUR cost to purchasing a BPO. Extracting SP and selling it for ISK is a simple market transaction between two players. The transfer of control of a whole character is a very different thing, although I must apologize that I'm having difficulty articulating the precise reason why I feel that way. It's like, the things the character can do immediately pre- and post-sale are identical. There's no more of an impact to the game world than there is when I change my password. It's purely an out-of-game change.

Extracting SP with an AUR price will be, I think, the first time ever an in-game action with tangible impact on the game world will come with a real-world money cost. I'm uncomfortable with that, just like I would be uncomfortable with a 1 AUR cost to undock each time.

I would consider neither to be pay-to-win, to be clear. Neither undocking nor adding SP to your character is winning. I very much like the idea of trading SP, and expect to make use of it depending on how much ISK it ends up costing. I am not concerned about fantastically wealthy alliances with trillions of ISK buying up vast quantities of Skill Injectors.

You forgot one:

Buy PLEX, sell for ISK, buy new 67 million SP character 3 days into the game.

Edit: Oh, and people can buy extractors and sell them on the market too for ISK--i.e. you may very well be able to buy them for ISK. Depends on how liquid the market is though.

I did not forget that one. It's covered by combining the first and fifth points of my first list and third point of my second list. One of the cool things about EVE is that a collection of simple independent steps can be combined to result in a complex outcome.



Yes, I fully expect that, depending on the market relationships between AUR, ISK, empty Extractors and PLEX, players will investigate the profitability of turning real-world money into ISK via purchasing AUR with real-money, then purchasing Extractor via AUR, then selling the Extractor for ISK. My theory is that it will be more profitable to simply purchase AUR and sell it for ISK directly, however.

The point is that there are things in game that can already be traded for Aurum. I donGÇÖt see that as a serious problem at all.

Indeed. Currently, the things that one can trade for Aurum are:

1. ISK. I have no problem with that.
2. Vanity items like SKINs and clothing. I have no problem with that either.

I have no problem with item #1 due to the nature of item #2.

However, soon we will have a new item that requires Aurum to trade for - one that is not just vanity, rather it has a direct impact on gameplay. That makes me uncomfortable.

Characters can be traded for isk, and those DO have a gameplay impact as Teckos Pech pointed out. As you also pointed out, since isk can be had for AUR, AUR has the same indirect impact on gameplay here as it does through skill injectors.

Also I think it's worth arguing that easy access to abundant isk is also a factor that affects gameplay in its own manner.

Characters can be traded for isk, and those DO have a gameplay impact as Teckos Pech pointed out.

As you also pointed out, since isk can be had for AUR, AUR has the same indirect impact on gameplay here as it does through skill injectors.

Yeah, I'm just not seeing this as a problem, at least a significant one. So Bob buys Aurum and decides to use it to buy skill injectorsGǪ? You can also buy Aurum with ISK no? Thought I saw some listed on the market in Jita not too long ago. Maybe you can explain your concerns a bit more?

It's the things that go to CCP and redeem AUR for that concern me, not that AUR can be passed between players for an agreed upon ISK amount. Currently, somebody can spend millions of real-world currency and acquire millions of AUR - and it really wouldn't have much effect on the game no matter what they did with it, since it can only be redeemed for vanity items, except perhaps drive down the ISK value of AUR by flooding the market, which again doesn't really matter much since AUR will still be available to everybody for the same real-world cost. Skill Extractors and the resulting Injectors, however, are not vanity items, and somebody spending millions of real-world currency to acquire AUR in order to acquire Extractions, can, assuming they have access to enough SP, have a significant impact on the game-world.

A Skill Extractor has an in-game effect. Undocking has an in-game effect. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of Skill Extractors requiring AUR for the exact same reason I would be uncomfortable with undocking requiring an AUR cost, even if I can use my time in-game to acquire ISK that I then use to purchase AUR from somebody else who has acquired that AUR by spending real-world currency. It increases the real-world cost of playing the game (even though it's an optional aspect of it) beyond the month's worth of game-time that is currently, other than the character bazaar and vanity items, the only cost to playing EVE.

I do not consider that moving a character from one account to another as having any direct EVE-world impact.

It's the things that go to CCP and redeem AUR for that concern me, not that AUR can be passed between players for an agreed upon ISK amount. Currently, somebody can spend millions of real-world currency and acquire millions of AUR - and it really wouldn't have much effect on the game no matter what they did with it, since it can only be redeemed for vanity items, except perhaps drive down the ISK value of AUR by flooding the market, which again doesn't really matter much since AUR will still be available to everybody for the same real-world cost. Skill Extractors and the resulting Injectors, however, are not vanity items, and somebody spending millions of real-world currency to acquire AUR in order to acquire Extractions, can, assuming they have access to enough SP, have a significant impact on the game-world.

I pay RL money for the right to undock. It could be switched over to Aurum I suppose...IDK nor do I care so long as the price is approximately the same.

You pay real-world money for the right to do whatever you are able to do in the game. Which could stretch from absolutely nothing to a 23x7 month-long PvP fest. Either way, you will spend the same amount of real-world money, whatever you end up doing. You do this by either using a credit card to fund a subscription, or purchasing a PLEX individually and redeeming it, or purchasing Aurum, selling it for ISK, and using the ISK to purchase a PLEX which you then redeem. CCP get their money, which is great. My concern would be, what if beyond the initial cost that gives you that month's playtime you then also have to spend AUR, which ultimately only is created from real-world money, to do the activities in the game you want to do. That is, microtransactions. So a person who simply does nothing of only skill-queues pays less real-world money than somebody who engages in a lot of PvP, PvE, industry, etc.

Eli Stan,

Let me be clear, I think you are making a bit of a mountain out of mole here.

So a person spends RL money and buys extractorsGǪokay, and this is a problem?

Because the person might be rich and wants to spend stupid amounts of RL money trying to wreck the New Eden economy (let's gloss over the ginormous question of why)? CanGÇÖt they do that now via PLEX?

IGÇÖm just not seeing it. So a guy buys a million dollars of extractors. Buys a million dollars in high SP characters (via PLEX) and then like Vlad the Impaler drains them all down to just 5 million SP and puts the resulting injectors on the marketGǪ.and suddenly nobody has underpants?

AUR is created by RL money....just as PLEX are created by RL money. Why are you so hung up on AUR but not PLEX?

As for micro-transactions, we already have them. Most are for cosmetic items. The exceptions are PLEX, AUR, the character bazaar and soon the SP market.

I am not sure what your last sentence refers too...but if you are worried about SP farming alts, well okay, but where is the problem there?

Because purchasing a Skill Injector won't require PLEX, it will require AUR. Really, they're basically interchangeable. Swap one for the other in any of my posts and the point will be exactly the same. They are both ways of giving real-world money to CCP. AUR simply comes in much smaller denominations. Without the volume discounts, I can purchase 900 AUR for $5.00 USD, or one PLEX for $19.95 USD, giving an exact ratio of 3591 AUR per PLEX. Essentially, the exact same thing, just with slightly different icons in the game, and valued slightly different by players due to market forces.

Indeed. I have no issue with microtransactions for vanity items or game time. I have a concern about microtransactions for in-game activities like engaging in trade with another player.

Nope, not concerned about SP farming alts whatsoever. I think it's great that they will be a possibility.

Oh! No, no, I do not intend to make a mountain whatsoever. It's why I've used terms like "uncomfortable" when describing my feelings - I think that's about as mole hill-ish as one can get. :) I've read people's comments that this will kill EVE, turn it lifeless, that they're unsubbing. I don't feel like that at all. I will gladly continue on playing the game, I will make use of Skill Injectors - I even looked through my character sheet for 500k SP I might use to create an Injector, but I don't have enough misallocated skillpoints. So yes, this is quite the mole hill. :) I simply wanted to give Gully Alex Foyle a concrete, although rather minor at this point, answer to his question. Something a little more meaty than "Here, read these 60 pages of comments" style of response he had gotten already.



Yes. Not game-killing, I'm-going-to-unsub level problem, but yeah a problem. I like to use the thought-experiment of every market order you place, every time you undock, every LP exchange you do costs 1 AUR, to try to clarify my view. I am not concerned that a real-world wealthy person can purchase many many months of game time (which can then be traded to other players for their in-game currency.) I'm concerned that after I spend my real-world money to get my month's worth of game time, I might be charged extra money depending on what I want to do in the game.



They can, and I have no problem with that - a single person flooding the market with thousands of PLEX sell orders is at the core of the situation paying for other people's play time. It would have an effect on the EVE economy since PLEX is integrated in the economy so thoroughly, but they are perfect welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.



No, that's not my concern - I'm not worried that some wealthy person will use PLEX or AUR to buy their way to some "winning EVE" status. I'm worried that the range of in-game activities I'm able to engage in might be limited by my willingness to pay real-world money for those activities one the game-time costs are satisfied. Sure, I don't have enough ISK to buy and fly a Titan - but I could make it a goal to do so and it would never ever cost any more real-world money, from either me or anybody else beyond the game-time costs. Anything that costs AUR, however, absolutely costs real-world money. Not necessarily mine, if for example I purchase a SKIN from somebody, but at the ultimate source of that SKIN it cost somebody. Trading skillpoints, like trading implants or trading Vexor hulls, I feel should be a normal in-game activity that doesn't require any AUR cost. (And just to reiterate - that it does cost AUR isn't game breaking, and isn't going to cause me to quit playing. It's just something that I wish would be otherwise. It's my little objection. :) )

I think you're somewhat radically overestimating the number of injectors that will actually hit the market.

I'm of the belief that those players with large pools of 'surplus' SP will probably use that SP (or the bulk of it anyways) for themselves, rather than sell on the market. Lets face it, if you have several high SP characters, you have other ways of generating ISK that doesn't involve selling SP.

It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens. Is it more profitable to sell off that SP as injectors or is it more profitable to sell off the whole character on the Bazaar?

These are all unknown quantities at the moment.

In any case, I don't expect to see them on the market for any less than around a billion ISK a pop. Some of these fanciful pieces of mathemagics where people project an ISK500m price point are, I believe, somewhat deluded.

Looking at my own meager stable of low SP alts, I can see a couple of million SP I can 'spare'. Said SP will be used by myself, not sold.

plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments

This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.

But you can get injectors with PLEX...or ISK. So what is the BFD here? You can't seem to lay out a coherent argument.

You actually make the case against your initial post. PLEX, AUR and ISK are all interchangable in game...so who cares, besides you?

Still waiting for the punch line to this joke.

I can price PLEX in terms of RL money or ISK. I can Price AUR in terms of ISK or RL money. Ergo I can price AUR and PLEX in terms of ISK and RL money or in terms of each other.

Would you feel better if the injectors cost 1 PLEX each?

I don't see your fascination with AUR.

The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction. ISK appears in the game through in-game activities done with active game-time. Ignore the term "AUR" - what I'm concerned about is the trade of an in-game item between two players (other than game-time which has it's own real-world cost to acquire) involving a real-world cost.

Your safety net is skipped by Char Bazar. Cause there is no difference if you grind isk or you buy PLEX for cash and swap it for isk just to buy ready to go toon vs. you do all the same just to buy pure SP.

The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction.

This also true with PLEX.

So you are concerned about PLEX trades since they are trade of in game items that can only be created by the involvement of real-world cost.

Plex was a drop during frostline. Possibly other events.

Finally, the rate of price increase broke whatever threshold DrEyjoG considers to be "too fast" and he stepped in, carefully injecting PLEX from banned accounts into the market, and stabilizing the price.

I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that.
It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.

Anyway, thank you for the feedback to all who have replied. Instead of continuing to try to clarify my concerns which I feel I'm doing a bad job of, since I'm not trying to convince anybody to agree with my view I will instead take away from this that most people who have objections to SP trading is because they are concerned about the results of the trades, rather than any real-world cost associated with it, and I will cease posting in this thread. o/

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?

This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.

This system is not pay 2 win, it's pay for convenience, and with the diminishing returns at higher skill points it's a lot harder to abuse unless you have trillions of isk.

All the games I've played where the time-scale to reach the top 1% of stats is now longer than the actually worth of playing the game have slowly but surely diminished. I'll still log on and say hello once in a while but if that 1% becomes out of reach due to work/RL stuff then interest is lost. EVE needs this system to give newer players the incentive to go all the way in EVE and keep the game alive.

this is an illusion, there is no safety net made by skills. none. no advantage in any real way made by skills, none. i can be killed by a noob or a vet with an equal %. So yea sorry but skill points do not matter in eve, never have never will.

I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.

If player with level 4 drone skill meets a player with level 5 drone skill in the same exact ship, the level 5 player will win.

However, I have my personal doubts that any player would willfully leave drones at level 4.

Anyways... This is intended to let new players buy their way into high level characters. Technically they could already do this with the character bazaar, but now they can create new characters with clean corp history and then ruin these characters ganking and awoxing and then recycle the characters again when done..

1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's.
2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access.
3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.

So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.

PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted.

When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it.

CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly.

Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.

PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.

PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad ThingGäó. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good ThingGäó.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.

I don't think it is a liability on the balance sheet.

You are buying PLEX which is just an in-game object, not really any different from buying an item from an in-game shop.

You wouldn't be able to calculate it as a liability anyway, as PLEX are used for more than just extending a subscription. You wouldn't know exactly how they will be used.

If CCP had to stop trading and it wasn't through gross negligence, they wouldn't have to honour those PLEX.

PLEX in-game only have an isk value and as we know that can fluctuate. So when you extend your game time via PLEX you are using something with an isk value.

The only real problem for CCP would be if, people stopped buying PLEX and more started using in-game PLEX to extend game time. Which is why CCP needs to have more ways to use PLEX so that there isn't such a surplus of them in-game.

It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.

One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.

I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.

All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.

Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.

They dont want to see the benefits, they are just complaining about something they think they dont like. Nothing new tbh. I think this is one of the better changes in a long time. Its a good isk sink. It doesnt add sp. And it gives options you didnt have before, unless you bougth another character. This lets you keep the uniqeness of Your character, and lets you fix stuff, when changes come.

It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card".

PLEX is an object that can access a few services, but it doesn't make it something that will make it a liability on the balance sheet.

Shop gift cards are an IOU and have a monetary value which will effect a balance sheet. But I just don't see that with PLEX.


I say with PLEX, PLEX isn't an IOU, it's an object that can be used in several ways. When buying PLEX that is what you are buying, the PLEX. Because other than the initial payment to buy the PLEX it's only dealing in virtual currency. PLEX can move between multiple players before it is used where it is removed from the game.

The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.

The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.

So is the PLEX. You don't see it as monetary value but the game time has a monetary value and so does the aurums, dual training tokens or any other stuff you can use a PLEX for.

If they become the "owner" of the liability, it kind of stop mattering. It's like they own themselves 30 days of game time. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong about "forgetting" that you owe yourself some "value".

Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.

It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.

It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.

They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.

Edit:

Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe.

It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.

They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.


Edit:

Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe.

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